two single coils in series = humbucker tone?

[spaceboy]

probably not... just curious. I imagine you'd get the output wouldn't you? but no hum cancelling of course, so lots of noise? and of course they're not wired as humbuckers so they wouldn't "react" like humbucker would they?

then what happens if you put 3, or even 4 SCs in series? would that be just a ridiculous amount of gain, horrible noise/feedback - just unusuable? or might you just get wonderful thick heavy tone?

cheers

[Jim Collins]

If the two single coils were RWRP with respect to each other, wiring them in series would yield a hum cancelling sound. (Wiring them in parallel also yields a hum cancelling sound.) A normal humbucker is really little more than two single coils in series, with both coils RWRP with respect to each other.

Two single coils can give you very close to the output of a standard humbucker. A lot depends upon the output of the individual pickups, but you'll be right in the ballpark. You may not get exactly the same tone you'd get out of a humbucker, but a great deal of the difference would be a result of the positioning of the two single coils. Rarely do you see two single coil pickups right next to each other, but that is, essentially, what a humbucker is.

A lot of folks fit their Telecasters with a four-way switch, where one of the positions yields the two pickups in series. (Jon Silberman's Tele is outfitted this way.) The two pickups are so far apart that you won't get the same sound as a humbucker, but you would get the same output. Ask Jon whether his is hum cancelling.

Putting three or four single coils in series? If they are all in phase, the output might be too much for an amp to handle. It won't blow up, or anything like that, but the sound would probably be too muddy to be useful. However, if one or two of the pickups were out of phase with the others, that would be a different story. Older PRS rotary guitars had one position that was both, full humbuckers in series, with one out of phase (the so-called power-out-of-phase position). Gibson stopped them from doing that, so later versions yielded one full humbucker in series with one of the coils of the other humbucker, and that coil was out of phase. (I only stumbled across this one when a forum member sent me an old schematic from PRS.) That equates to three coils in series, with one out of phase. Once you change the phase of one of the pickups, you end up decreasing the output, because of the huge notch that is created.

[John Phillips]

You'll be interested in this Jim - Brian May's 'Red Special' has three Burns Tri-Sonics (already quite hot pickups) wired in series, with phase switches for each.

I doubt you would over-saturate an amp just by wiring pickups in series. Many booster pedals give gains of 20dB or more, and they don't make amps sound muddy usually... just very distorted :).

[Jim Collins]

I was speaking, as I am prone to do, in terms of tones that are useful, to me. A bit parochial, perhaps, but that's what we geezers do.

Three hot pickups wired in series? Interesting. Plug that critter into my Vickie tweed Deluxe, and get the fire extinguisher ready. If I plug a humbucker guitar into the #1 input of either channel, and turn the guitar's volume up, it will produce some decidedly unmusical sounds when I dig in. (I don't even use the #1 input with my Teles.) I can't begin to imagine what a hotter signal would do. Maybe it would tell the drummer across the street, and his headbanging band, that I am a force to be reckoned with.

[John Phillips]

They'd probably think you were Neil Young.

;)

[Jim Collins]

I laughed out loud, at that one. Neil may be too subtle for these kids, though.

[Pedro58]

I use the 4-way switch on both of my Teles and I like it. It does have more output and it does sound a little like a neck humbucker. It really is its own thing, though. I like it a lot for slide when playing a Tele because I can't seem to get the bridge pup to not "bite" so much, regardless of tone knob twisting! The only way to know if you like it is to try it, I guess...

[Jim Collins]

One thing you might try, to see if you can get a better slide tone from the bridge pickup, is different slide materials. When I play slide on a humbucker guitar, I always use a thick glass slide, but I found I'm not a big fan of the glass slide on my Tele. Instead, I use a brass slide on the Tele. I think I get more control over the Tele slide sound with a brass slide, though I still prefer glass on a humbucker guitar.

[Troy Baer]

Originally posted by spaceboy
then what happens if you put 3, or even 4 SCs in series? would that be just a ridiculous amount of gain, horrible noise/feedback - just unusuable? or might you just get wonderful thick heavy tone?


That's the way Brian May's homemade "Red Special" guitar and clones thereof are wired; 3 Burns Trisonics (more similar to p90s than Fender SCs) in series with on/off and phase switches for each pickup. I have one of the aforesaid clones, an RS Classic from http://www.rsguitars.com/, and all 3 PUs on and in phase is pretty darned fat sounding -- almost too much so! Just the neck and bridge PUs on and in phase is fatter than most bridge humbuckers, because the middle PU picks up much more bass than the neckward coil of a bridge humbucker would.

[Pedro58]

I hadn't thought of that! But I am really used to my glass slides... I can be, shall we say, very SET in my ways... The series combo on the telecaster doesn't just offer a compromise to a problem. It has a tone of its own that is very cool. I will try brass, though. I definitely like them better for acoustic!

[Clorenzo]

Putting two SC pickups in series is one of the standard mods for Strat type guitars. Lots of info, including descriptions of the sounds, here:

www.guitarnuts.com

As for more than two in series, it all depends a lot on the characteristics and positions of the coils. At least with humbuckers, three coils in series can work very well. When I was designing the wiring of Harry Jacobson's Godin Flat Five (two humbuckers), he told me he had tried all sorts of coil combinations, and while all four coils in series was indeed muddy, some of the three coils in series sounds were really sweet. We decided to include one of those in the final wiring and it's actually my favourite tone in that guitar. Judge for yourself:

http://www.harryjguitar.com/gear_page.html

Fourth guitar down, click on Audio clips.

Carlos

[spaceboy]

hey Jim - what exactly does RWRP stand for? I assume from the context that you mean something to do with the phase? I think I know what you mean then.

may as well tell you why i'm asking - it's for my new-guitar-to-be (hopefully) that will be the ultimate in versatility:

4 SCs (blue Lace Sensor bridge, silver Lace Sensor neck, two lower output, different-sounding single coils in between)

3-way swicth per pickup - on-off-on, each "on" being a different phase (yes - this bit inspired by the Red Special ^_^ )

and a series/parallel switch (or maybe turn my volume pot as a push-pull pot or something)

oh yeh, and i may have a universal tone control and universal mid-range control, or two tone controls or something, haven't decided about that yet...

but yeh, so there doesn't seem to be any reason not to go ahead with it, and I can just get experimenting once it's built :D

thanks for the help!

[Jim Collins]

RWRP means reverse wound, reverse polarity. For two single coil pickups to operate in hum cancelling fashion, one must be RWRP with respect to the other. In a typical humbucking pickup, the two coils are RWRP with respect to each other, so it is hum cancelling.

Lace Sensors are already hum cancelling, so you don't have to worry about RWRP, there. The wild cards will be the two other single coils, and how they will be used with the rest of the pickups.

[spaceboy]

ah right, I'll have to keep that in mind when I'm choosing pickups then... cheers