perhaps its just me, its certainly my opinion that LESS distortion = HEAVIER sound...

[SW33THAND5]

don't get me wrong, i like a good growl to my sound with some hairy balls on it. but, if there is one thing that i feel that most kids (OMFG...i am 36 and already calling the younger guys "kids" ...but thats another topic entirely) is that they learn to play and want a super "HEAVY" rocking sound and go right for that triple rec'd power chord with no string definition. the chord becomes amalgamated into one mushy scalloped mid buzz. overall very weak, better off just getting a 50wt marshall or 30wt vox cranked, or a lightly distorted fender type thing pushed by a good rat, muff or fulldrive type of stompbox. hey i know, its like saying that the color red is prettier than the color orange, its subjective. i just think that sonically, its a mistake. something that i see as a rookie mistake more often than not.

http://www.guitarmessenger.com/sites/interviews/19-MarkTremonti/2.jpg




its official!! its too loud so i must be too old :hide

[matte]

quantify heavy.

[bleomonkey]

I am the exact opposite. I have only played with overdrive once in my life for 3 seconds.

[Suproman77]

What you described is exactly why I don't care for that kind of heavy distortion or the music it's used to make, if you can call it that. Sounds like noise to me most of the time.

BTW, I think the reason why so many young players start out playing with such heavy distortion is because the mush and buzz helps cover up all their mistakes and/or lack of skills.

Using an amp with just enough distortion to get you going and make it sing like a bird? Now, that's what I call skillful playing and music.

[michael.e]

While some lesser experienced players might use the heavy mush and compression to cover sloppiness, guitarists with a higher capacity anyway, can and do take those seriously overdriven tones to places unexpected. I have heard some brilliant high gain tones in the past. A great guitarist can make just about anything sound brilliant or heavy.

Overdriven tones that I dig run the gammut from early Pete Townsend to Allman Brothers sweetness to Rammstein. It is all music.

[matte]

What you described is exactly why I don't care for that kind of heavy distortion or the music it's used to make, if you can call it that. Sounds like noise to me most of the time.

BTW, I think the reason why so many young players start out playing with such heavy distortion is because the mush and buzz helps cover up all their mistakes and/or lack of skills.

Using an amp with just enough distortion to get you going and make it sing like a bird? Now, that's what I call skillful playing and music.or maybe some of us find timbral value in a square wave. :banana

[jumpnblues]

For me, my ears, and the kind of music I play, the more distortion the more generic the tone. It's like throwing a blanket over your tone. I prefer "clean sustain" or very light overdrive. JMHO, YMMV.


Tom

[shredtrash]

I think the payoff is definitely much greater w/less distortion. I'm just realizing that myself. My tone seems thicker and raunchier since I cut the amount of gain I was using. If you're technique is sloppy though, you're going to get exposed big time. Check out this clip of Todd Duane running through a '72 Marshall and a LP. This is a prime example of what I'm talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiWLnYU6JBQ&feature=related

[Tone_Terrific]

If you are working with music I think being able to clearly distinguish the notes is rather important.
If you are working with sonic landscapes there may be value in any kind of generated noise.

Do I sound biased?:jo

Heavy? What was the question?

[Kentano2000]

What you described is exactly why I don't care for that kind of heavy distortion or the music it's used to make, if you can call it that. Sounds like noise to me most of the time.

BTW, I think the reason why so many young players start out playing with such heavy distortion is because the mush and buzz helps cover up all their mistakes and/or lack of skills.

Using an amp with just enough distortion to get you going and make it sing like a bird? Now, that's what I call skillful playing and music.

Amen, brother! My thoughts exactly. Although I think of sounds as textures and colors on a palette, so anything goes when the need calls for it.

[matte]

If you are working with music I think being able to clearly distinguish the notes is rather important.
If you are working with sonic landscapes there may be value in any kind of generated noise.

Do I sound biased?:jo

Heavy? What was the question?music? sonic landscapes? what's the difference? music is nothing more (or less) than an organisation of sound.

your "bias" is self limiting.

[gainiac]

Their is a time and a place for everything.

I've had a pretty good time on more than one occasion with my Tyler's midboost cranked, going into a Machine--Fuzz Factory set to nuke, wah pedal and whammy pedal (treadles attached via popsicle sticks!) into a completely gained out amp.

I wanted my guitar to remind me of the sound of a dental drill in my head. :banana

[ReddRanger]

Balance. Too much of anything is not always a good thing. IMO.

Same goes for reverb, delay, chorus, tremolo, etc.... all can be rendered ineffective when used excessively.

Then again, everyone's 'sweet spot' is different.

[akihiro]

I agree. I don't think Rage Against the Machine used a lot of distortion, but they still sounded really heavy, imo.

[TommyMambo]

I agree...

Just listen to "Ya Ya's", "Live at Leeds", "Love You Live". Just natural crunch!

[BlueHeaven]

To me, the song makes it heavy or not. An song with an ultra distorted, crushing guitar tone sounds like a song with an ultra distorted, crushing guitar tone...if the tune aint heavy. Now, I do like some uber distorted stuff even though I'm 53 so don't take me wrong. But tunes like When The Levee Breaks, Babe I'm Gonna Leave You and such had very little distortion and others like Machine Gun, Bridge of Sighs, Black Dog etc. used distortion but not that much by today's standards...and those tunes were HEAVY!!
Greg

[cram]

I fit in with a band in 2004-05 and they were hard rock'n all original in their material. We played two shows and rehearsed a bunch for them. I walked away from that with learning that I didn't need to have the pre-gain all the way up to have a heavy sound.

I know exactly what you mean in this regard. The other guitarist had a 2203 and the pre was never beyond 4 on the dial. it also gives you a cleaner volume roll to play with if you choose to play this way.

[thesjkexperienc]

I find the same thing when recording. I will often double certain notes on an acoustic guitar miked for just a bit of overload. Listen to Les Paul or Jimmy Page and you will hear that their guitars are not very distorted and they sound really heavy.

I often laugh when some kid tells me how he is nailing JP's tone and he has way too much overdrive and sounds too compressed. I dont think Page ever used a channel switching amp for Zep. It is all power amp distortion and a few boosters.

[michael.e]

Guys, don't limit yourselves to thinking that the only way to have an incredible tone is to continue to ape the classic tones from the '60's and '70's.

There is MUCH more to music than that. I am sure you already knew that though..


I say this because I am a tad suprised as to how boxed in the comments are.

[SW33THAND5]

music? sonic landscapes? what's the difference? music is nothing more (or less) than an organisation of sound.

your "bias" is self limiting.

i never liked jackson pollack either. just splashy rubbish to me

http://www.realmagazine.com/new/thoughts/graphics/pollack.jpg

i am not saying that it isn't art and that there are't some people who obviously like it.

i am just more enamored and inspired by other works...

http://www.penwith.co.uk/artofeurope/degas_blue_dancers.jpg




"bias" be damned...it doesn't impress me. distortion that is too heavy looses its character (you can find the exceptions that i am certain that exist. i am speaking in generalities...)


http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/his/CoreArt/art/resourcesb/dav_marat_2.jpg

[SW33THAND5]

Guys, don't limit yourselves to thinking that the only way to have an incredible tone is to continue to ape the classic tones from the '60's and '70's.

There is MUCH more to music than that. I am sure you already knew that though..


I say this because I am a tad suprised as to how boxed in the comments are.

its where you drive the tone that makes it creative. not just making "new" noises. new doesn't always mean better...

besides, we are off topic now. if you want a tone that will knock you down like a sledgehammer!!! then give me a p90 loaded SG and a HIWATT halfstack. keep your mesa "buzzsaw" tone. it will sound small next to the hammering of the much cleaner (but still growling) HIWATT


http://www.thewho.net/linernotes2/PeteLeeds.jpg

[violetlove]

It's more about balancing the pre-amp gain wiht how much power amp you are using, to get teh level of distortion you want , at eh SPL you want.
The whole poin tof pre-amp gain, is to get distorrted sounds at lower SPL's.
So, yes, if you can crank your 100watt stack, you won't need much pre-amp, otherwise it can come in handy.

[SW33THAND5]

It's more about balancing the pre-amp gain wiht how much power amp you are using, to get teh level of distortion you want , at eh SPL you want.
The whole poin tof pre-amp gain, is to get distorrted sounds at lower SPL's.
So, yes, if you can crank your 100watt stack, you won't need much pre-amp, otherwise it can come in handy.


a small tweed deluxe will have the same effect...it doesn't have to be a 100wt stack...












nevermind...:bkw

[violetlove]

a small tweed deluxe will have the same effect...it doesn't have to be a 100wt stack...












nevermind...:bkw

OK, small Tweed Deluxe, whatever, it does not matter. It is still about using the controls intelligently to achieve the desored outcome, rather than sticking blindly to a dogmatic formula, or letting yourself get boxed in to fixed ideas about what amps should do what.
The great thing about gain knobs is that you can turn em down as well as up, regardless of teh brand of amp.

[jazzandmetal?]

Some "heavy" music can't be played on cranked tweed or Vox amps. Just wouldn't sound right. But I guess it depends on your definition of heavy.

The riff that follows the solo in Stairway to Heaven is really heavy. So is The Immigrant Song.

But so is Meshuggah.

[blood5150]

I kind of like the wall of sound here....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmej68ut3KA&feature=related

[michael.e]

nevermind...:bkw

I dun understand, why is it necessary to change minds here? You certainly have a viable icon regarding Heavy, I am saying that that world, to me, is a little bigger than that. As great as "that" was....

You make it seem like you are "right" regarding this subject. No need for that.

[wader]

The thing is, a lot of folks don't realize just how little distortion is actually used in bands such as ac/dc......

not saying it isn't appropriate where needed ..... just it isn't needed in a lot of places folks think it is.......

[Randaddy]

The thing is, a lot of folks don't realize just how little distortion is actually used in bands such as ac/dc......

not saying it isn't appropriate where needed ..... just it isn't needed in a lot of places folks think it is.......

I think you nailed the point. It makes much more sense to me the way you said it.

It is the misconception of how much distortion was actually used on some of the classic material that we love so much... not that more can't be used or that other styles of music do or don't need more. Simply that less accomplishes more than we sometimes realize.

Good job wader!

[TwoTubMan]

Listen again (or, for the first time, for that matter...) to Blue Oyster Cult's "Tyranny and Mutation". Eric Bloom's rhythm guitar has that ultra-clean, SG-with-humbuckers-into-a-HiWatt-DR100 sound. It contrasts perfectly with Dharma's distorted Marshall lead tone, and Lanier's perfectly "screechy" Tele harmonies.

[wader]

I think you nailed the point. It makes much more sense to me the way you said it.

It is the misconception of how much distortion was actually used on some of the classic material that we love so much... not that more can't be used or that other styles of music do or don't need more. Simply that less accomplishes more than we sometimes realize.

Good job wader!

glad to be of service.........tone isn't necessarily in the fingers....sometimes it's in the semantics........

er....well......ummmm

8^)

[RedRock]

There's a time and place for everything.

[Paul Conway]

I agree. I don't think Rage Against the Machine used a lot of distortion, but they still sounded really heavy, imo.

I think a lot of bands - like beginning players - try and sound heavy through over-use of distortion rather than through playing and arrangements. RATM - whilst not a band I particularly like - sound heavy through arrangement rather than timbre. But I think for them it comes from that 70's funk legacy of all hitting on the one, a la Funkadelic.

[Rock Johnson]

Guys, don't limit yourselves to thinking that the only way to have an incredible tone is to continue to ape the classic tones from the '60's and '70's.


That's TGP heresy, you know.

[fazendeiro]

There's a distinct old man smell in here.

[blood5150]

There's a distinct old man smell in here.


lol...... though i do think that death metal is ridiculous....


:agree

[Zero]

There's a distinct old man smell in here.

:D lol

[mkl13]

I think the payoff is definitely much greater w/less distortion. I'm just realizing that myself. My tone seems thicker and raunchier since I cut the amount of gain I was using. If you're technique is sloppy though, you're going to get exposed big time. Check out this clip of Todd Duane running through a '72 Marshall and a LP. This is a prime example of what I'm talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiWLnYU6JBQ&feature=related

The guy in this clip sounds great. Great playing and tone

[Brian D]

Without arguing semantics or feeling the need to make an all-encompassing statement, I think I understand what you are saying and I agree with you. I think you often get more "whoomph" out of an amp when you dial the distortion down a bit.

[Tone_Terrific]

I think the payoff is definitely much greater w/less distortion. I'm just realizing that myself. My tone seems thicker and raunchier since I cut the amount of gain I was using. If you're technique is sloppy though, you're going to get exposed big time. Check out this clip of Todd Duane running through a '72 Marshall and a LP. This is a prime example of what I'm talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiWLnYU6JBQ&feature=related

Is this too dirty? It's beyond clean note articulation for chords, imo.

[Scott K]

I agree with you. For instance, Opeth records with Triple Recs at low gain settings, but with a few tracks at low gain, it gets heavy as shit!

[jazzandmetal?]

I agree with you. For instance, Opeth records with Triple Recs at low gain settings, but with a few tracks at low gain, it gets heavy as shit!

Opeth actually uses Laney vh100r heads set to the clean channel and Boss GT-6 multi effects pedals for distortion.


http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/opeth/153620-read-first-opeth-faq.html

[re-animator]

don't want to tute my own horn... i'm not a hard-rock player, but "heaviness" with a cranked ac30:

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6599674

[JazzHessian]

Without arguing semantics or feeling the need to make an all-encompassing statement, I think I understand what you are saying and I agree with you. I think you often get more "whoomph" out of an amp when you dial the distortion down a bit.

I would agree.

I've found that, at least for my purposes, less artificial "dirt" and more gain from sheer volume gives me a much bigger, heavier sound. There's nothing like feeling an amplifier rattling your bones and kicking you in the chest.

[screamingdaisy]

While I agree that sheer volume trumps raw gain, plinking chords out of your too clean amp when that amp is at less than impressive volumes is about as cool as my description sounds.

There's a time and a place for everything. I wouldn't use an overdriven Plexi to play Master of Puppets, and I wouldn't used a gained up Dual Rectifier to play Machine Gun.

EDIT - even if Jimi is using a Fuzz Face for high gain sounds....

[Scott K]

Opeth actually uses Laney vh100r heads set to the clean channel and Boss GT-6 multi effects pedals for distortion.


http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/opeth/153620-read-first-opeth-faq.html

You're correct when speaking of their live tone. That's incorrect for their studio work.

EDIT: According to their site, they use Laneys with the TR, but I remember reading an interview where Mikael didn't even mention the Laneys being used on the record.

[shane88]

i agree that less distortion is probably a good thing especially if there's no definition (or midrange) in a super distorted sound
and you can sound heavy on an acoustic
and yes the bloody kidz use too much distortion :crazyguy

[jazzandmetal?]

You're correct when speaking of their live tone. That's incorrect for their studio work.

EDIT: According to their site, they use Laneys with the TR, but I remember reading an interview where Mikael didn't even mention the Laneys being used on the record.

How dare you correct me!!:rotflmao:rotflmao

I have actually read that in the studio it is a combo of engl/mesa/laney amps.

Whatever they use, they get a great tone.

[movingpictures]

While some lesser experienced players might use the heavy mush and compression to cover sloppiness, guitarists with a higher capacity anyway, can and do take those seriously overdriven tones to places unexpected. I have heard some brilliant high gain tones in the past. A great guitarist can make just about anything sound brilliant or heavy.

Overdriven tones that I dig run the gammut from early Pete Townsend to Allman Brothers sweetness to Rammstein. It is all music.

BIg +1!! How about Ty Tabor killing with a Dual Recto on the Dogman album....Same amp as the nOObs, but the player makes all the difference.

[bluesjuke]

For me, my ears, and the kind of music I play, the more distortion the more generic the tone. It's like throwing a blanket over your tone. I prefer "clean sustain" or very light overdrive. JMHO, YMMV.


Tom


I'm with you on that.

It takes time I think for some, especially the less experienced to realize that there is not as much distortion on the recording they are trying to emulate as they may think.

Quality playing with a decent tone will give you all of the "power" your music needs.

[brooksrocco]

Funny, the first thing I thought of when I saw this thread title was Opeth. The 'heavy' tones on Blackwater Park are novel and brilliant... massive layering of low gain rhythm tones to get complex, harmonically saturated HEAVINESSSSS

How dare you correct me!!:rotflmao:rotflmao

I have actually read that in the studio it is a combo of engl/mesa/laney amps.

Whatever they use, they get a great tone.

I've also heard, at least regarding the newer records, that Jens refuses to record with Laney amps.

Originally posted by Jens Bogren:

Laney would never come close to one of my sessions, at least not for guitars.

On Watershed i used the Marshall JVM together with the Mesa cab for the main rhythms. The secondary pair is Mesa Dual Rectifier through the MF400. SM57 and Royer on the main pair, 2x SM57 and one SM58 on the secondary pair (if my memory serves me).

Rectifiers are funny: When you solo listen them they sound pretty week, strange, not metal at all. But they just have this random harmonic structure that make them glue in to any mix. That's what's so dangerous with a Pod: you can make them sound pretty impressive on it's own, but together with the rest in a mix it will never work that well. Sometimes i kick the signal with a tube screamer (the maxon OD808, i think i'm sort of endorsed), but more for lead guitars. A fresh set of tubes is really important, and the right cab. The Road King is pretty impressive where you can change tubes and try different combos on the fly. The really old Dual Rectifier sounds probably better most of the times though.

Someone asked if i use 5150. The first version is pretty descent, but i haven't used them much. There's something in there i don't like.

A good "replacement" for Mesa would be Krank, it's pretty unpolished and random, but tighter than Mesa.

For tight sounds and complex riffing i usually go with Engl.

Lately, I think they've gotten a little more, shall we say stock(?), as far as heavy guitar sound goes. Not bad by any means, but a little less interesting, more standard high gain, albeit extremely well produced.

But that's a whole other discussion...

[jcoggins7]

While I agree that sheer volume trumps raw gain, plinking chords out of your too clean amp when that amp is at less than impressive volumes is about as cool as my description sounds.

There's a time and a place for everything. I wouldn't use an overdriven Plexi to play Master of Puppets, and I wouldn't used a gained up Dual Rectifier to play Machine Gun.

EDIT - even if Jimi is using a Fuzz Face for high gain sounds....

I agree with this. I think the issue at the core of our discussion/civilized debate here is the differing definitions of the word heavy. To me, AC/DC and Led Zep are standard rock tones, but IMHO not particularly heavy tones. I can see why people who were around when these bands were first getting big (before what I consider heavy was around) would think that these tones are "heavy." My term for those kinds of sounds would be something like "classic ballsy." However, I can also see how these listeners would correlate some of the songs mentioned with heaviness, and I think it has more to do with the harmonic progression and content than tone. That's a different topic altogether. IMO, this is a more accurate (modern) tonal definition of heavy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7KfPIfhsRA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNE2-K8fDDw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQkF8LUoyVE

That said, I do believe you can get heavy tones without diming the preamp gain. I set my amp gain at a little less than noon (granted, I'm using a Boogie, so...).

[Chiba]

Guitarists are much pickier about tone than the average listener.

To me, AC/DC and Led Zep are standard rock tones, but IMHO not particularly heavy tones.
I definitely agree with you on this point.

The only old-like-those-examples band I consider to have a really heavy tone is Black Sabbath... and IIRC Iommi was pretty gained out on those old amps he used to use.

--chiba

[harryjmic]

Listen to live Albert King. The guy played solid state amps at high volume, very little gain and his tone would just tear your guts out and leave them on the floor. For clean and heavy playing no one has topped Albert, that's a fact.

[screamingdaisy]

I agree with this. I think the issue at the core of our discussion/civilized debate here is the differing definitions of the word heavy. To me, AC/DC and Led Zep are standard rock tones, but IMHO not particularly heavy tones. I can see why people who were around when these bands were first getting big (before what I consider heavy was around) would think that these tones are "heavy." My term for those kinds of sounds would be something like "classic ballsy." However, I can also see how these listeners would correlate some of the songs mentioned with heaviness, and I think it has more to do with the harmonic progression and content than tone. That's a different topic altogether. IMO, this is a more accurate (modern) tonal definition of heavy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7KfPIfhsRA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNE2-K8fDDw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQkF8LUoyVE

That said, I do believe you can get heavy tones without diming the preamp gain. I set my amp gain at a little less than noon (granted, I'm using a Boogie, so...).

While I thank you for agreeing with me, we differ on our definition of heavy. Personally, I don't find Dream Theatre heavy at all. Too symphonic, too intelligent, no groove.

You put on a good Black Sabbath track, and people start to nod their head. You put on a good Rage Against the Machine track, and people want to mosh. You put on a good Dream Theatre track, and most people go to the bar for a drink and wait for the next song to come on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lboS7psz-qc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-58-36lSqG4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAvFTGVJuAo

[jcoggins7]

While I thank you for agreeing with me, we differ on our definition of heavy. Personally, I don't find Dream Theatre heavy at all. Too symphonic, too intelligent, no groove.

You put on a good Black Sabbath track, and people start to nod their head. You put on a good Rage Against the Machine track, and people want to mosh. You put on a good Dream Theatre track, and most people go to the bar for a drink and wait for the next song to come on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lboS7psz-qc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-58-36lSqG4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAvFTGVJuAo

I agree Sabbath and Rage are great examples, but I wouldn't count out DT. Some of their stuff is very symphonic, i.e. Sacrificed Sons, ect. This is where I would consider the large amount of distortion used as being used to create a soundscape of sorts as someone already mentioned. I wouldn't say that the tone is not heavy because of that. You can be heavy without playing basic (though good) riffs in 4/4. I would agree that it is hard to headbang to bars of 7/8 and 15/16, but people definitely do it at their concerts. Just check out the Budokan DVD lol.

[jcoggins7]

Listen to live Albert King. The guy played solid state amps at high volume, very little gain and his tone would just tear your guts out and leave them on the floor. For clean and heavy playing no one has topped Albert, that's a fact.

Another great example of how everyone's definition of heavy differs. I absolutely disagree with anyone who would say that Albert King is even remotely heavy, though I wouldn't deny the talent or the soul.

[Dr. Tweedbucket]

To me, 'heavy' is the fat lower mids of a Marshall superlead. That kind of tone is what you feel, not just hear. Natural powertube crunch with all the harmonic goodness is what it's all about.

:)

[bkd_guitarist]

What point were you making by posting the Tremonti pic? That his tone is very distorted but not heavy, or heavy but not very distorted? To me, Tremonti's tone is both heavy AND heavily distorted.

don't get me wrong, i like a good growl to my sound with some hairy balls on it. but, if there is one thing that i feel that most kids (OMFG...i am 36 and already calling the younger guys "kids" ...but thats another topic entirely) is that they learn to play and want a super "HEAVY" rocking sound and go right for that triple rec'd power chord with no string definition. the chord becomes amalgamated into one mushy scalloped mid buzz. overall very weak, better off just getting a 50wt marshall or 30wt vox cranked, or a lightly distorted fender type thing pushed by a good rat, muff or fulldrive type of stompbox. hey i know, its like saying that the color red is prettier than the color orange, its subjective. i just think that sonically, its a mistake. something that i see as a rookie mistake more often than not.

http://www.guitarmessenger.com/sites/interviews/19-MarkTremonti/2.jpg




its official!! its too loud so i must be too old :hide

[jazzandmetal?]

What point were you making by posting the Tremonti pic? That his tone is very distorted but not heavy, or heavy but not very distorted? To me, Tremonti's tone is both heavy AND heavily distorted.

How about NOT heavy and TOO distorted?:dunno

[VaughnC]

Music is like art...I don't think there's any "right" or "wrong", just opinions. There are lots of music and tones that people rant/rave about around here at TGP that I just don't "get"...such is life. However, whenever I pick up my musical paint brush (guitar), I try to paint an honest picture from my soul with whatever colors I deem the sonic painting needs. You may not like my sonic art...such is life...but it will be honest ;).

[ben_allison]

besides, we are off topic now. if you want a tone that will knock you down like a sledgehammer!!! then give me a p90 loaded SG and a HIWATT halfstack. keep your mesa "buzzsaw" tone. it will sound small next to the hammering of the much cleaner (but still growling) HIWATT


http://www.thewho.net/linernotes2/PeteLeeds.jpg

...and Meshuggah will eat you for breakfast. Maybe lunch.

Some of the heaviest, most solidly huge guitar tones of recent years have been from Killswitch Engage. Their past three albums illustrate, very well, how one can have size and gobs of gain, sans shrinkage.

Agreed, too much distortion can make you sound very small, very fast; you always need "less than you think you do." But even bringing up bands of the "modern commercial rock" ilk, such as Creed, Nickelback, Three Days Grace, as a reference point for "heavy"... it's kind of nauseating and unfortunate.

Go listen to some good metal. You'll hear how big heavily distorted guitars can sound.

[jazzandmetal?]

...and Meshuggah will eat you for breakfast. Maybe lunch.

Some of the heaviest, most solidly huge guitar tones of recent years have been from Killswitch Engage. Their past three albums illustrate, very well, how one can have size and gobs of gain, sans shrinkage.

Agreed, too much distortion can make you sound very small, very fast; you always need "less than you think you do." But even bringing up bands of the "modern commercial rock" ilk, such as Creed, Nickelback, Three Days Grace, as a reference point for "heavy"... it's kind of nauseating and unfortunate.

Go listen to some good metal. You'll hear how big heavily distorted guitars can sound.

Ufortunate indeed.

[jcoggins7]

How about NOT heavy and TOO distorted?:dunno

This is not heavy? (referring to the rhythm tone):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko6tfrjc1E0

[bkd_guitarist]

This is not heavy? (referring to the rhythm tone):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko6tfrjc1E0

Exactly. How is that not a heavy tone? Seriously, not trying to be a sh*t disturber, I'm really curious as to how that's perceived as not heavy.

[jazzandmetal?]

This is not heavy? (referring to the rhythm tone):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko6tfrjc1E0

LOL. Ummmm. No.


This is heavy:

Pelican
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P8LI1UJQNI&feature=related

Mastadon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKw2s_AxUIw&feature=related

Meshuggah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOd-T58qHLA&feature=related



To EDIT* If you think Alter Bridge is heavy, that is cool. I just don't. I listen way more extreme metal than even what I listed so I gues heavy is in the ear of the beholder. Tremonti seems to be "trying" to be heavy and to shred with his new chops to shed the Creed image. IMO.

[bkd_guitarist]

LOL. Ummmm. No.


This is heavy:

Mastadon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKw2s_AxUIw&feature=related

Meshuggah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOd-T58qHLA&feature=related

Pretty much your standard scooped mid buzz saw tone, complete with screamo lead vocalist.


Pelican
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P8LI1UJQNI&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P8LI1UJQNI&feature=related)

Now THIS was interesting, and very cool. To me that's a great example of a heavy, but not heavily distorted, tone.

[michael.e]

don't want to tute my own horn... i'm not a hard-rock player, but "heaviness" with a cranked ac30:

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6599674



Very nice!!! Not to gainy, but deep~!


Love that avatar on the clip. I recall sending a card with that picture to an old girlfriend some years ago.. Man, was the sex great..:tapedshut

Anyway, great Vox tone.

[semi-hollowbody]

Led Zeppelin was heavy...especially when they played accoustic...distortion is not the only precursor to heavy...

When you go on youtube and listen to players, good players, cover classic rock songs they almost ALWAYS use much more distortion than the original recording...

I find myself using less and less dirt...but for the record with my boss mt-2 and my eh metal muff, I can get 80's metal tone and still play full chords with plenty of definition! There is a big difference betwee, cranking the drive to 11 and dialing in a good amount of dirt and EQ'ing it :)

[jazzandmetal?]

Led Zeppelin was heavy...especially when they played accoustic...distortion is not the only precursor to heavy...

When you go on youtube and listen to players, good players, cover classic rock songs they almost ALWAYS use much more distortion than the original recording...

I find myself using less and less dirt...but for the record with my boss mt-2 and my eh metal muff, I can get 80's metal tone and still play full chords with plenty of definition! There is a big difference betwee, cranking the drive to 11 and dialing in a good amount of dirt and EQ'ing it :)

I was just going to say this. The guitars tone has not a lot to do with heavy. It has everything to do with the feel and attitude behind the riff.

When the Levee Breaks would have been heavy on acoustic or through a Metal Zone with all the mids scooped. The riff and groove make it heavy.

When I say I don't think that Alter Bridge clip isn't heavy it has more to do with the band and song than the tone.

[jazzandmetal?]

Pretty much your standard scooped mid buzz saw tone, complete with screamo lead vocalist.




You clearly didn't listen to the whole mastadon clip.

Glad you liked Pelican. You didn't dig the Holdsworth type interlude/solo in the Meshuggah song?

[MichaelThomas]

To me this is my ideal heavy tone. I just really appreciate the clarity these guys get from pushed jcm 800s. Very nice indeed. Listen to how huge the hit comes after the soft part in the begining.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1LR9z-Vm4g

Edit: If you like the Pelican/ Isis tones, these guys are total rip-offs lol

[bkd_guitarist]

You clearly didn't listen to the whole mastadon clip.

Glad you liked Pelican. You didn't dig the Holdsworth type interlude/solo in the Meshuggah song?

No, I listened to all three clips in their entirety. My comment was referring to the heavier parts of those clips. I should have explained that. Oh yeah, totally dug the interlude in the Meshuggah song.

[screamingdaisy]

Now THIS was interesting, and very cool. To me that's a great example of a heavy, but not heavily distorted, tone.

Then you might also like Isis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWjhxnVcmgg

[jazzandmetal?]

No, I listened to all three clips in their entirety. My comment was referring to the heavier parts of those clips. I should have explained that. Oh yeah, totally dug the interlude in the Meshuggah song.

I posted 15 minutes worth of clips and you responded to my post 10 minutes after I put it up.:dunno

Doesn't matter. I still think we are getting off the point of the OP. It is true. More distortion does not make something heavy.

[JazzHessian]

Then you might also like Isis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWjhxnVcmgg

Isis are seriously good.

Where did all the drone metal fans here come from all of a sudden?

[screamingdaisy]

I was just going to say this. The guitars tone has not a lot to do with heavy. It has everything to do with the feel and attitude behind the riff.

Heavy;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcIZdG4xsGg

[bkd_guitarist]

I posted 15 minutes worth of clips and you responded to my post 10 minutes after I put it up.:dunno


Dude. Take it easy. I told you I listened to all three in their entirety. Don't know what to tell you about the time stamps on TGP. If web sites always posted stuff with the correct times, I'd win more eBay auctions.

[bkd_guitarist]

To me this is my ideal heavy tone. I just really appreciate the clarity these guys get from pushed jcm 800s. Very nice indeed. Listen to how huge the hit comes after the soft part in the begining.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1LR9z-Vm4g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1LR9z-Vm4g)

Edit: If you like the Pelican/ Isis tones, these guys are total rip-offs lol


Then you might also like Isis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWjhxnVcmgg


Very cool. Thanks for posting.

[jazzandmetal?]

Dude. Take it easy. I told you I listened to all three in their entirety. Don't know what to tell you about the time stamps on TGP. If web sites always posted stuff with the correct times, I'd win more eBay auctions.

I was just playing around.:D

Your bank account is probably better off due to the incorrect times on your ebay auctions.:roll

*edited above statement as I somehow forgot some words.....:o As ssen in the below quote. All this heaviness has shaken my brain loose.

[bkd_guitarist]

I was just playing around.:D

Your bank account probably the incorrect times on your ebay auctions.:roll

Ain't that the truth. :rolleyes:

EDIT: I knew what you meant.

[GerryJ]

drummer
bass player

If they 'got it' the guitarist can be clean (Page) or fuzzed out (take your pick).

But if the drummer/bass player tread lightly, a distorted guitar will just sound like retro summer of love 1966 groovy AM radio.

[Josh O]

I gotta tell ya, the heaviest yet most articulate tone I've ever heard live was Jerry Cantrell's on the AIC reunion tour last year. I've been to alot of concerts, seen a freakin' boatload of heavy bands, many who have tones people try to replicate but what I heard that night was unreal. It was overdriven and sustaining and what I would consider "heavy" but yet it sounded huge, there was no mush, no trebly buzzsaw sounds, very articulate and airy and this was in an arena who's notorious for having awful house sounds. Later that night Velvet Revolver hit the stage, my first time seeing Slash live and he has that quintassential Les Paul meets Marshall tone and I gotta tell ya, it sounded like shrilly/buzzy/trebly crap that night compared to Cantrell's tone.

[jcoggins7]

...my first time seeing Slash live and he has that quintassential Les Paul meets Marshall tone and I gotta tell ya, it sounded like shrilly/buzzy/trebly crap that night compared to Cantrell's tone.

Well, it was a Marshall...lol

[Coach]

drummer
bass player

If they 'got it' the guitarist can be clean (Page) or fuzzed out (take your pick).

But if the drummer/bass player tread lightly, a distorted guitar will just sound like retro summer of love 1966 groovy AM radio.

I feel a little stupid for saying this but that metaphor perfectly describes the phenomena of a weak drummer/bassist in a rock band. Great post.

[jcoggins7]

I feel a little stupid for saying this but that metaphor perfectly describes the phenomena of a weak drummer/bassist in a rock band. Great post.

I agree with both on this. Great point.