GM burning $3.1 million/hr.....

[AaeCee]

Or $52,000/minute, according to the Associated Press. Is it time to let the dying beast fail, or should it be bailed out to fight another day?

[Bones]

I think the only way we can get a new stronger economy for the future is to let these wasteful dinosaurs fall. It's going to hurt, but you know what they say about repeating the same process and expecting a different result.

[FiestaRed]

take it out back and put it of its misery

[DiazDude]

Please read this before just dismissing the US auto industry...
http://www.cargroup.org/documents/CARPressReleaseNovember42008.pdf

[Trout]

I think the only way we can get a new stronger economy for the future is to let these wasteful dinosaurs fall. It's going to hurt, but you know what they say about repeating the same process and expecting a different result.


BINGO!

Granted the short term effects will ripple sharply across the planet, in the end, we will bennefit.

[FredW]

I think the only way we can get a new stronger economy for the future is to let these wasteful dinosaurs fall. It's going to hurt, but you know what they say about repeating the same process and expecting a different result.

I agree to a certain extent, but if GM fails and goes to liquidation you run the chance that all of the Big 3 will go down also. They all use the same suppliers and those suppliers will go down for sure, a lot have gone down already. I'm not sure we want to systemically wipe out an entire industry at the moment. This is not a case where the gov can throw up it's hands like they did with Lehman.

[Bones]

I agree to a certain extent, but if GM fails and goes to liquidation you run the chance that all of the Big 3 will go down also. They all use the same suppliers and those suppliers will go down for sure, a lot have gone down already. I'm not sure we want to systemically wipe out an entire industry at the moment. This is not a case where the gov can throw up it's hands like they did with Lehman.


well with the current consumer credit crisis and many other industries laying off workers or closing up shop, who is going to buy all these cars? Should we really shore up a failing industry that wont be able to sell their inventory?

[Trout]

I agree to a certain extent, but if GM fails and goes to liquidation you run the chance that all of the Big 3 will go down also. They all use the same suppliers and those suppliers will go down for sure, a lot have gone down already. I'm not sure we want to systemically wipe out an entire industry at the moment. This is not a case where the gov can throw up it's hands like they did with Lehman.


Many Valid points, but,

If 1 company falls, that does not mean all three will. GM has failed iteself as a business.
A lot gets mentioned about the suppliers. but over the past decade a large portion of " suppliers & parts" are not " Made In The USA"

As the link posted above claims,

The government stands to lose on
the level of $60 billion in the first year alone, and the three year total is well over $156 billion.”


Well? Downsizing government cures that also.

[FredW]

well with the current consumer credit crisis and many other industries laying off workers or closing up shop, who is going to buy all these cars? Should we really shore up a failing industry that wont be able to sell their inventory?

I think we definitely have to change the auto industry. It costs us something like 2k more than the rest of the world to build a car. The labor contracts alone make it impossible to sustain any competitiveness in the market. I just think we need to force them to change in order to get a bailout. I don't think letting them fail without a well thought out plan of disposition is appropriate right now in the fragile state the country is in.

[Bones]

I think we definitely have to change the auto industry. It costs us something like 2k more than the rest of the world to build a car. The labor contracts alone make it impossible to sustain any competitiveness in the market. I just think we need to force them to change in order to get a bailout. I don't think letting them fail without a well thought out plan of disposition is appropriate right now in the fragile state the country is in.


I know what you are saying but I would rather we spent those billions on new technologies, retraining and education than bailing out something that is doomed. I just don't get where these billions are coming from when there's seemingly no money for anything else.

[Structo]

What I don't get is with all the brilliant people these car companies must have in there management, why didn't they see this thing with the oil prices coming and plan for it. They had to have had signs that things were not going to remain the same and be able to make gas guzzlers forever.

Another thing, it seems that many cars in the early to mid 90's got 34-36 mpg.
I know, my dad had a 94 Honda Accord with ac and auto trans.
That thing got 35-36 mpg with the ac on when driving at freeway speeds.

Now when they advertise, you are lucky to see a car that gets 30 mpg.
What happened there?

Instead it seems they just kept rolling out the pickups and SUV's which nobody wants anymore due to fuel prices.

I don't feel that any of these bail outs are fair. You go to work, you pay your bills, you pay your mortgage, etc.

Why can't these businesses be held to the same accountability?

It seems that poor book keeping is getting rewarded.

How about all the people that got loans that were too good to be true?
They knew that the ARM's were going to go up and when they did, they couldn't afford the new monthly payment.
Now we are expected to bail these people out who shouldn't have gotten these loans in the first place because they simply don't make enough to pay these loans.

This country is bass ackwards anymore where we reward failure and punish those that are responsible.

[halorealm7]

I don't know boys & girls. Been making some phone calls and can't make up my mind. That damn stock $2.88 a share yesterday was about to kill me. I know its risky but.....to buy about 40k of that shit..and they DO get bailed out..that's gonna be some serious coinage even if just goes to $40 a share. Toyota was selling at $64 a share...if my 2.81 a share hit that.....???:dunno


IMHO--AIG=crooks and waste
GM= some piss poor thinking and management

Which one "should" be saved?

[FredW]

Ford stock is at $1.86. It won't take much to push these guys off a cliff

[Trout]

What I don't get is with all the brilliant people these car companies must have in there management, why didn't they see this thing with the oil prices coming and plan for it. They had to have had signs that things were not going to remain the same and be able to make gas guzzlers forever.

Another thing, it seems that many cars in the early to mid 90's got 34-36 mpg.
I know, my dad had a 94 Honda Accord with ac and auto trans.
That thing got 35-36 mpg with the ac on when driving at freeway speeds.

Now when they advertise, you are lucky to see a car that gets 30 mpg.
What happened there?

Instead it seems they just kept rolling out the pickups and SUV's which nobody wants anymore due to fuel prices.

I don't feel that any of these bail outs are fair. You go to work, you pay your bills, you pay your mortgage, etc.

Why can't these businesses be held to the same accountability?

It seems that poor book keeping is getting rewarded.

How about all the people that got loans that were too good to be true?
They knew that the ARM's were going to go up and when they did, they couldn't afford the new monthly payment.
Now we are expected to bail these people out who shouldn't have gotten these loans in the first place because they simply don't make enough to pay these loans.

This country is bass ackwards anymore where we reward failure and punish those that are responsible.

IMO, they have been using auto's as fashion statements for far to long,
They do not need to be practical
They do not need to be economical
They do not need to be cheap.

Problem is with any fashion, it is generally short lived, and recycles iteslf every 15 or 20 years.

Last time we had gas cost issues, I owned a 42mpg 79 Ford Fiesta. Cheap, good on gas, and dorky as hell. But it did what was needed, Point A to Point B cheaply.
I have always owned small cars, always will.

Bless you Jerry Reed for Giving us this.

Lord Mr Ford (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXQf0JG8Uj8)

[halorealm7]

IMO, they have been using auto's as fashion statements for far to long,
They do not need to be practical
They do not need to be economical
They do not need to be cheap.

Problem is with any fashion, it is generally short lived, and recycles iteslf every 15 or 20 years.

Last time we had gas cost issues, I owned a 42mpg 79 Ford Fiesta. Cheap, good on gas, and dorky as hell. But it did what was needed, Point A to Point B cheaply.
I have always owned small cars, always will.

LOL....proud?? K car owner here. A to B and nothing more..period. I remember those years.

[joolzriff]

take it out back and put it of its misery
what he said,outa date vehicles

[Braxtone]

GM would be fine if they applied the technology that they acquired when they purchased the Saturn name(fully functioning electric cars) and De-unionized their workforce. I am not in any way anti union but the auto makers union has a strangle hold on the industry. And we should buy stock in these companies now.

[DiazDude]

Will someone please explain to me why it's a good thing for our economy if one or more of our automobile makers close their doors.
Set aside the who's at fault issue..that can't be changed.
There are hundreds of thousands of people across the country that will loose jobs and won't be able to get new jobs for a long time if at all. We'll loose what they pay in taxes.
A huge portion of these workers and their families be forced to go on some sort of public assistance...gov't assistance programs to re educate displaced workers will have to be expanded.
All this at what cost? Taxpayers will pay for all this.
The "bailout" remember is a loan..we can get it back if it works out. The other way we have no way at all to get back any of the assistance funds that will be handed out.
How can the human & financial cost be absorbed without a 10 to 20 year depression?

[Dr. Tweedbucket]

I heard we'd be looking at 10% unemployment if the auto industry went belly up, with probably means a HUGE increase in defaulted mortages which would set off all kinds of deep financial misery for us all :messedup ...... I don't see a good solution any which way I look.

[lcjc800]

http://bestsmileys.com/yawning/1.gif

[Trout]

If the financers are 10 trillion dollars in debit, They should continue to Loan more money? Who's money?

There are bigger fish to fry with those dollars rather than a car company that has failed itself repeatedly.

[DiazDude]

I heard we'd be looking at 10% unemployment if the auto industry went belly up, with probably means a HUGE increase in defaulted mortages which would set off all kinds of deep financial misery for us all :messedup ...... I don't see a good solution any which way I look.

That's whats been reported in print & broadcast media..1 in 10 jobs (all jobs not just mfg) nationwide will be lost if GM, Ford & Chrysler go out of business.
Anyone who thinks they'd be immune from any effects of this happening is sadly mistaken.

[devilrob1979]

I'm not familiar with the UAW's way of doing business but I can attest from my own experience that manufacturing unions are vilified far more than they deserve. It's beneficial to a company to create an illusion that its labor is overpaid and unappreciative. They use that to sway public opinion in favor of the poor union-besieged company. In our case it's really a bunch of BS but whatever. These companies have to be saved and the upper-level executives who are responsible for this mess need to be shown the door without huge severence packages and retirement plans. Mulally's been at Ford for 2 years. How many of you could retire from a company after that much time? He made more on his first day in signing bonuses, etc than the top 37 executives at Toyota's combined annual salaries. That's not meant as a slight against Alan (he used to be ours and I credit a lot of our current success to him) but it does show that our executive culture is way out of whack with the rest of the industrialized world. There are no real consequences to failure. Suck at one company and the company where you happen to be a board member will most likely offer you a spot as CEO. The guy who sucked at Home Depot took $200 million plus in severance and retirement and went on to run Chrysler into the ground.

The reason our labor costs are so high here has nothing to do with how much the workers receive in salary. It's because the Big Three have to pay for medical care. That's not a cost to the corporations in Europe and Japan as they have universal health care. On average a car built in Canada is $2000 less expensive to produce because of health care costs alone. American unionized auto workers make right around what their Japanese counterparts make (the Japanese actually make a little more) and much less than their German colleagues who make $41.80/hr on average. Non-unionized American auto workers in places like Ohio (Honda), Mississippi (Toyota) and South Carolina (BMW) make far less. Volkswagen has the highest market cap of any company in the world or they did when I was on strike and had the time to pay attention. Ford's below $2.00/share. They build crappy looking cars with interiors that fall apart. I hope the Big Three make it through this but I think they have to totally rethink their design philosophies and kick the oil/ethanol people out of bed.

I would recommend those wishing doom to the Big Three to take a moment to think about what it would be like if your entire industry vaporized.

[Jade]

Diaz, I'm with ya man. It truely makes me sick to see some of the comments made in regards to US auto workers, and the big three in general. I don't want to get political, but as an analogy, the US gov't has been sinking in Red Ink for years, but nobody's saying we should just let that fall to the wayside.

People talking about how much an assembly line factory worker should, or should not earn, when they themselves have never stepped foot inside an auto factory in the middle of the Ohio summer with 98 percent humidity, 110 degrees inside, absolutely busting their asses, because the line does not stop.

I've done it. I've seen em haul people out on a stretcher who've just plain old passed out from heat exhaustion. So they make enough to afford a new car, and decent house, and take the family to florida once a year. They deserve every single dime. Untill you've done it..... I digress.

As for letting the companies fold, oh yeah that's a great plan. The last bastion of Manufacturing muscle this country has, that let's not forget built the munitions that saved us, and europe twice should be tossed out like so much garbage. BRILLIANT!!

People think the economy is bad now? Lets lose several million auto related jobs, and see how the rest of us are all affected. It'll make 1929 look like a picnic.

Let's not forget that the Big 3, and the UAW, agreed on contracts that were mutually agreeable at the time. Unfortunatley, the rules got changed with the implementation of Global Trade. Now an industry that had turned a decent profit, all the while paying its employees a nice livable agreed upon wage, Gets the tables turned on it, and now has to compete against companies, and countries with a 3rd world standard of living, ZERO EPA REGULATION, NO CHILD LABOR LAWS, NO LABOR CONTRACTS, NO WORKERS COMP, NO OSHA, and usually subsidised by whatever pissant country they're in.

I think I'll stop now before I start spewing profanities at the ill informed.

Jade

[NuSkoolTone]

Why can't they file chapter 7 and not 11?

Restructure, renegotiate if not abandon some of the BS UAW agreements that should have NEVER happened in the first place so they have a hope of being competitive?

THEN Bail them out with a carefully structured plan APPROVED by the government with a careful eye as to how they are SPENDING that money. So we won't hear a couple of months later they're not using it as intended like the banks.

[FredW]

Why can't they file chapter 7 and not 11?

Restructure, renegotiate if not abandon some of the BS UAW agreements that should have NEVER happened in the first place so they have a hope of being competitive?

THEN Bail them out with a carefully structured plan APPROVED by the government with a careful eye as to how they are SPENDING that money. So we won't hear a couple of months later they're not using it as intended like the banks.

No one can finance the bankrupcy. It's too big.

[Jade]

Restructure, renegotiate if not abandon some of the BS UAW agreements that should have NEVER happened in the first place so they have a hope of being competitive?


This is exactly what I'm talking about. People don't seem to realize that the UAW, IUE, et al, HAVE taken huge consessions already. We're talking about $10hr jobs now folks with no pensions, and very limited health benefits for new hires. This all started back in the end of the 80's- early 90's I personally don't know how they get anyone to do those jobs for that kind of money, but aparently they do.

It's sad, we're letting World trade dictate what the US standard of living will be.

Jade

[FeloniousBishop]

I agree to a certain extent, but if GM fails and goes to liquidation you run the chance that all of the Big 3 will go down also. They all use the same suppliers and those suppliers will go down for sure, a lot have gone down already. I'm not sure we want to systemically wipe out an entire industry at the moment. This is not a case where the gov can throw up it's hands like they did with Lehman.

If one of the US automakers is allowed to fail it will make the others stronger not weaker.

In my line of work a lot of companies have failed. The ones that remain get their business. Noone expected a handout. Survival of the fittest is the American way. I don't see why it should be any different for car makers.

[jazzandmetal?]

I heard we'd be looking at 10% unemployment if the auto industry went belly up, with probably means a HUGE increase in defaulted mortages which would set off all kinds of deep financial misery for us all :messedup ...... I don't see a good solution any which way I look.

Exactly, we as a country/people pay one way or the other. It really is a shitty situation.

[halorealm7]

You know, when this whole bailout deal first came out, it was about keeping good hard working folks in their homes, that was the early talk, that's what got the ball rolling. I don't have a problem with paying an extra 8 or 10 grand in taxes if I know the folks down the street are gonna have a place for their kids to sleep but somewhere the rules changed. Fat cats are still getting bonus checks and the shit ain't right. Sure the automakers brought some of it on themselves but "NOT" the common workers. The common folks are the ones getting the shaft in this deal either way it goes. And just to think, during the founding of this country, we got pissed off over a few taxes on tea. Somebody is gonna have to take some responsibility. I say we give out the money from the bottom up and start kickin' ass from the top down. We'll meet somewhere in the middle right or wrong.

Rant over

[brlfq]

Or $52,000/minute, according to the Associated Press. Is it time to let the dying beast fail, or should it be bailed out to fight another day?

That's a bit over $27 Billion a year. Is that a lot?

[DustBusterB]

GM would be fine if they applied the technology that they acquired when they purchased the Saturn name(fully functioning electric cars) and De-unionized their workforce. I am not in any way anti union but the auto makers union has a strangle hold on the industry. And we should buy stock in these companies now.

This is a political thread and needs to be closed.

[Dr. Tweedbucket]

Jade


People talking about how much an assembly line factory worker should, or should not earn, when they themselves have never stepped foot inside an auto factory in the middle of the Ohio summer with 98 percent humidity, 110 degrees inside, absolutely busting their asses, because the line does not stop.


What is GM doing besides holding out their hand and laying off measly paid factory workers?

GM needs to downsize BIG time...... STARTING with the layers and layers of overpaid middle management who bog down the system. I've worked for some HUGE companies and know all about the big disconnect between decisions made at top level and what is actually going on in Engineering and manufacturing. Next, all the top FAT cat's take a huge cut in pay ...... let's say a couple hundred thousand a year / each would be good for starters.

Did you know that Ford and GM make $15-18K PROFIT on each full size luxury SUV platform that they sell?? What the hell is up with that? I mean, profit is great, but why is it so difficult for GM/Ford/Chrysler to have a little vision towards the future? It's their own greed that sunk them. ....... the poor factory workers are the unfortunate casulties.



By the way, Ohio's humidity is not 98% unless it's raining outside :) ....

[Dr. Tweedbucket]

This is a political thread and needs to be closed.


http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/redface.gif reported http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/redface.gif

[Blue Strat]

Or $52,000/minute, according to the Associated Press. Is it time to let the dying beast fail, or should it be bailed out to fight another day?

That's insane. But so is putting 1M plus workers on the street. That would affect all of us for decades.

Bailout/loans with MAJOR conditions is required.

The Big 3 needs to become the Big 2 with focus on updated products and 21st century compensation for employees and retirees.

[khud]

You know ... the American Auto industry has been building cars that BREAK DOWN OFTEN for a very long time.

I gave up on American cars in 1980. In that time I have had TWO cars ... both Nissans.

I am STILL driving the second one. VERY few problems over the years.

Before that (1972 - 1980) my American cars were always in the shop for one thing or another.

The point is ... the American Auto makers INTENTIONALLY puts out product that is inferior. They probably figured people would just buy new cars sooner that way.

In fact we did ... but we started buying imports.

And you know what ??? The same thing is still happening. They never learned. They are still cranking out inferior automobiles.

So ... why should WE bail them out ??

Its bad enough we are being totally ROBBED, and "legally" ... from the original $700 - $100 BILLION bailout.

Hell, we dont even know where THAT money went. Anyone ever read the Bailout Document?? Its Well over 100 pages of legalese ... mind blowing.

Now Cities and individual towns want in on the feast.

Who's next ???

I say that they all made their beds .. let em sleep in it.

But once again ... it is US, the taxpayer, who is getting screwed ... this time ROYALLY. :BITCH

[khud]

This is a political thread and needs to be closed.[quote]

[quote=Dr. Tweedbucket;5025824]http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/redface.gif reported http://img3.harmony-central.com/acapella/ubb/redface.gif

Actually, IMHO ... this thread is about ECONOMICS ... not politics.

[Teleplayer]

Ford stock is at $1.86. It won't take much to push these guys off a cliff


I'm scraping a few pennis together and trying to decide which of the Big Three I want to own. In about two weeks, I am thinking I might be able to be the majority owner of a "Big Three" car manufacturer for about $37.

Somebody (i.e., pension fund, money management fund, large bank, wealthy individual) should buy one of the failing manufacturers and rebuild it with proper manegment, proper products and proper employment contracts.

It's pretty simple, the unions (and bloated management) can b!tch all they want about who's fault it is. The sum of this game is that the money is running out, the products are either poorly designed or poorly marketed - or both, but these cats need to wake up and admit that something here isn't working.

Same thing happened with the airlines a couple/few years ago. The unions complained (should baggage handlers really make $70k/year plus bennies??). Management complained. But the solution/answer is real simple. THERE'S NO CASH. EXPENSES OUTSTRIP INCOME. LIABILITIES OUTSTRIP ASSETS.

Point fingers and b!tch all you want. When the cash runs out, all the finger pointing in thr world won't matter. Period.

The auto manufacturers are so f-ing rife with problems it's a living and breathing business case study every single day of the week. As an example - how can an auto manufacturer spend millions of dollars per year on market research focus groups - but rarely design/engineer/build products that people want to buy?????:messedup

A line production worker tightening bolts onto a car makes more in salary, benefits and overall compensation than many in mid-level management. Somehow, IMHO, I never knew that tightening a bolt was considered "skilled labor". I mean we're not talking electrician, plumber or journeyman carpenter here.

The problems and issues are sad but almost laughable. In their current formats, the Big Three have been sucking off the U.S. consumer money t!t for a long time.

When are these Einsteins going to wake up and realize that things need to change. Oh yeah - and the money's running out. That's a fact. It's not a lie, it's not a fabrication, it's not "the man" trying to get union concessions, etc.

WAKE THE F UP!

Sheesh......

[ASATClassic]

You know ... the American Auto industry has been building cars that BREAK DOWN OFTEN for a very long time.

I gave up on American cars in 1980. In that time I have had TWO cars ... both Nissans.

I am STILL driving the second one. VERY few problems over the years.

Before that (1972 - 1980) my American cars were always in the shop for one thing or another.

The point is ... the American Auto makers INTENTIONALLY puts out product that is inferior. They probably figured people would just buy new cars sooner that way.

In fact we did ... but we started buying imports.

And you know what ??? The same thing is still happening. They never learned. They are still cranking out inferior automobiles.

So ... why should WE bail them out ??

I

+1

About 12 years ago I felt guilty about always buying foreign cars, so I leased two brand new Dodges, one for me and one for my wife. I kept them for just a couple of months, then sold both at a big loss. Why? They were driving me crazy. They were both in the shop constantly with many intermittent problems.

Also, the dealers's repair shop was a circus, with cars overflowing everywhere.

[Tony Foran]

Any new hires make $14.00 an hour . I don't think that's excessive considering the job which isn't as easy as most people think. Maybe we can retrain them for cubicle jobs, so they can play around on guitar forums all day.

[Teleplayer]

Any new hires make $14.00 an hour . I don't think that's excessive considering the job which isn't as easy as most people think. Maybe we can retrain them for cubicle jobs, so they can play around on guitar forums all day.


No need for computers; I hear quite a few play around with things like real live bands - both during long breaks and out on the shop floor. But don't ask me to name names or get into specifics because I won't "rat out" my sources.

[rob2001]

Any new hires make $14.00 an hour . I don't think that's excessive considering the job which isn't as easy as most people think. Maybe we can retrain them for cubicle jobs, so they can play around on guitar forums all day.


Ouch!!:D

EDIT: just to note, i'm a furnace installer!

[rob2001]

IMO, all cars have issues. I had an Audi that was a nightmare. And the parts to fix it were more than six times as much. I paid $175.00 for a relay that costed me $25.00 on the same relay for a Bonneville.

I don't know the numbers, but i'm betting that all the car makers are having a tough time selling cars now. But I gotta say, if I were in the market for a new car, i'd buy American.

[NuSkoolTone]

Did you know that Ford and GM make $15-18K PROFIT on each full size luxury SUV platform that they sell?? What the hell is up with that? I mean, profit is great, but why is it so difficult for GM/Ford/Chrysler to have a little vision towards the future?

That's not surprising. Just go look on Chevy's site. $50k for a well equipped Tahoe? WTF? $50k? Could anyone IMAGINE paying $50k for a CHEVY 20 years ago if it wasn't a corvette?:dunno

[Teleplayer]

That's not surprising. Just go look on Chevy's site. $50k for a well equipped Tahoe? WTF? $50k? Could anyone IMAGINE paying $50k for a CHEVY 20 years ago if it wasn't a corvette?:dunno

Big price. Big outdated vehicle. Big wheels and tires. Tiny m.p.g. It screams "GM"!!!! What more could you ask for???

[Killcrop]

Any new hires make $14.00 an hour . I don't think that's excessive considering the job which isn't as easy as most people think. Maybe we can retrain them for cubicle jobs, so they can play around on guitar forums all day.

Dude, that is the funniest thing I have read this year. Thank you.:dude

[Tony Foran]

Big price. Big outdated vehicle. Big wheels and tires. Tiny m.p.g. It screams "GM"!!!! What more could you ask for???

How about a Toyota Land Cruiser at a local dealer that has a sticker price of 72K?

[bug0711]

For all of you that are wishing the demise of General Motors. May the life force of your home states economy perish with it.



bg

[Jagsound]

This is a political thread and needs to be closed.

So why don't you report it you whinger?

[AaeCee]

[quote]This is a political thread and needs to be closed.[quote]



Actually, IMHO ... this thread is about ECONOMICS ... not politics.Exactly. As khud states, this discussion has thankfully centered mainly on economics, as hoped. I'm as confused and torn up on this as the varying opinions reflect. As some intimated, it's a sad situation from all perspectives with plenty of blame to go around, and lots of collateral damage.

[Mark Kane]

Any new hires make $14.00 an hour . I don't think that's excessive considering the job which isn't as easy as most people think. Maybe we can retrain them for cubicle jobs, so they can play around on guitar forums all day.


Great post!!

[GerryJ]

Let's not forget that the Big 3, and the UAW, agreed on contracts that were mutually agreeable at the time. Unfortunatley, the rules got changed with the implementation of Global Trade. Now an industry that had turned a decent profit, all the while paying its employees a nice livable agreed upon wage, Gets the tables turned on it, and now has to compete against companies, and countries with a 3rd world standard of living, ZERO EPA REGULATION, NO CHILD LABOR LAWS, NO LABOR CONTRACTS, NO WORKERS COMP, NO OSHA, and usually subsidised by whatever pissant country they're in.



GM is paying health benefits and pensions for ~ 1.2 million people, only about a third who currently work for GM.
The issue the politicians avoid - as it's political suicide- is if the american people will guarantee auto retirees a pension and health insurance for the next 20 years, because their company can't. Opens the door then to other industries as well.

The workers are caught in the middle.
Toyota had 5,000 engineers working almost round the clock for 7 years to develop the Prius. GM was making cute versions of humvees 8 mpg for soccer moms.

[rob2001]

GM is paying health benefits and pensions for ~ 1.2 million people, only about a third who currently work for GM.


Did they not earn that?

[Blue Strat]

Fat cats are still getting bonus checks and the shit ain't right.

Don't you realize that this is required in order to "retain top talent" at AIG et al? The same "top talent" that created the financial disaster. :D

[onemind]

The sad part of a GM Demise (besides the fact that I would get clobbered) is that they really are uniquely positioned to revamp the industry, they have the edge in alternative fuel technologies, electric vehicles, etc. If they'd only get off their bloated corporate ass and convince washington of this they'd have a shot.

[halorealm7]

Don't you realize that this is required in order to "retain top talent" at AIG et al? The same "top talent" that created the financial disaster. :D

That's what "they" say. And who the hell are "they" anyway. "They" may be responsible for this shit. I wanna know who "they" are. Does anybody know who "they" are? Who's really pulling the strings on all this shit....seriously, who has the power?

[Bones]

For all of you that are wishing the demise of General Motors. May the life force of your home states economy perish with it.



bg


663,000 Residential construction jobs have been lost since September of 2006. Don't you think that has a serious impact on the economy? How come no one is shoring up the residential construction industry so we can keep building houses that no one can afford to buy or get a mortgage for?

At some point we have to change the way things are done and move forward. Throwing good money after bad IMHO is not the way to do it. What if these bailouts don't work, then the money is gone, the opportunity for a new direction is gone and the fat cats are still fat.

[Teleplayer]

How about a Toyota Land Cruiser at a local dealer that has a sticker price of 72K?

Probably not a huge seller either.

[Mark Kane]

GM is paying health benefits and pensions for ~ 1.2 million people, only about a third who currently work for GM.
The issue the politicians avoid - as it's political suicide- is if the american people will guarantee auto retirees a pension and health insurance for the next 20 years, because their company can't. Opens the door then to other industries as well.

The workers are caught in the middle.
Toyota had 5,000 engineers working almost round the clock for 7 years to develop the Prius. GM was making cute versions of humvees 8 mpg for soccer moms.


We guarantee gov't workers a pension, what's the difference, both signed on with an expected package. When was the last time you saw a gov't employee even move, let alone do any work. Your taxes keep 'em going.

[Teleplayer]

... When was the last time you saw a gov't employee even move, let alone do any work...

There are some fine local government employees managing the O'Hare Internaitonal Airport Modernization program. At $16B, it is currently the largest infrastructure project in the world. The entire project is being - and will be - funded by current, future and intrinsic demand for air travel - not taxes.

The dedication of the program manager and her staff is literally astounding. One of the best run infrastructure projects anywhere. Literally every phase has come in under budget and at least on-time (or better). Yes, run by government employees.

You should go out to that project and observe, before making uneducated comments that are "absolutes" about "everybody".

[Kingbeegtrs]

And...

The U.S. Potal Service is far superior to UPS or FedEx in my opinion. Government as wel.

[drgonzoguitar]

I am with Diaz and Jade on this one. No matter how inefficient the big three are, they need to be kept afloat until they have chance to reorganize. We need to prevent a deflationary spiral (...my student loan debt is expensive enough as it is).

from Bloomberg this morning:

GM Collapse at $200 Billion Would Exceed Bailout Tab, Firm Says

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a0Ee7HIsw7Ao&refer=home

[Tony Foran]

Probably not a huge seller either.

Just pointing out that we aren't the only ones building bloated vehicles.

On the other hand, have you ever tried pulling a boat with a Prius? Rhetorical, of course.

[Tony Foran]

For all of you that are wishing the demise of General Motors. May the life force of your home states economy perish with it.



bg

God forbid, if we ever needed the added war-time manufacturing, we could always turn the Chery Motors. The Chicoms are our buddies, right?

[MVrider]

I'll bet not 1% of the members here can explain how the AUTOMAKERS and not the UNIONS ended up with control of (and responsibility for) those pensions and benefit plans. Have a nice day. :AOK

[Kingbeegtrs]

It is going to be tough to deny anyone at this point since we've already given Wall Street a blank check. It's kind of like giving one of your kids a cookie and not giving a cookie to the other two...just asking for trouble.

[halorealm7]

I'll bet not 1% of the members here can explain how the AUTOMAKERS and not the UNIONS ended up with control of (and responsibility for) those pensions and benefit plans. Have a nice day. :AOK

What the hell are you talking about?? There's probably not 1% of America that really understands all this stuff including the ones trying to fix it.:tapedshut

[epluribus]

On the other hand, have you ever try pulling a boat with a Prius?

They sink don't they?

[MVrider]

What the hell are you talking about?? There's probably not 1% of America that really understands all this stuff including the ones trying to fix it.:tapedshut

Anyone having an opinion on this subject would do well to look into how the AUTOMAKERS and not the UNIONS got control of the pension plans. Very interesting story that almost no one knows.

[halorealm7]

Anyone having an opinion on this subject would do well to look into how the AUTOMAKERS and not the UNIONS got control of the pension plans. Very interesting story that almost no one knows.

Agreed.... as well as some serious reading and information on how we got to where we are and why we are here.:AOK

[Blue Strat]

That's what "they" say. And who the hell are "they" anyway. "They" may be responsible for this shit. I wanna know who "they" are. Does anybody know who "they" are? Who's really pulling the strings on all this shit....seriously, who has the power?

30:1 leverage on bad investments is all you need to know.

[Blue Strat]

Did they not earn that?

No more than most people who work and don't get the same benefits.

[Jade]

No more than most people who work and don't get the same benefits.


We begrudge someone because they make more than we do, for what we like to believe is less important, easier, or unskilled work?

Me personally, I'm THRILLED if I find out a DitchDigger makes 100K a year. Because that just brings the level of everyone else up as well. And If my job doesnt pay enough, It's my responsibility to find one that does.

[Seditious]

I was robbed by GM out of over $50,000 by buying and repairing 2 of their horribly engineered and built cars (a Saturn and an Alero), that went to hell as soon as the warranty ran out.

And now you want me to give them my tax money as well? NO WAY!

You want to talk about consequences? They should owe me money.

[Blue Strat]

We begrudge someone because they make more than we do, for what we like to believe is less important, easier, or unskilled work?

Me personally, I'm THRILLED if I find out a DitchDigger makes 100K a year. Because that just brings the level of everyone else up as well. And If my job doesnt pay enough, It's my responsibility to find one that does.


You're way off base here. That's not it at all.

The bottom line is, why would someone in a dying business with insufficent customer base expect to be bailed out by taxpayers who receive less in (cost of living adjusted) compensation/benefits for doing equal work?

[lcjc800]

Any new hires make $14.00 an hour . I don't think that's excessive considering the job which isn't as easy as most people think. Maybe we can retrain them for cubicle jobs, so they can play around on guitar forums all day.
You are now on my Xmas list
They sink don't they?
...you too...

[Jade]

You're way off base here. That's not it at all.

The bottom line is, why would someone in a dying business with insufficent customer base expect to be bailed out by taxpayers who receive less in (cost of living adjusted) compensation/benefits for doing equal work?

I'll leave the argument about me being "way off base" alone.

First off, the Auto market is not a "Dying" buisness. We just happen to be going thru some extremely tough economic times, that are affecting ALL auto manufacturers. I think there was another Mega thread about the cause of the bank/housing fiasco that's as much to blame for all this as anything else, so no need to rehash here.

General Motors is actually doing very well in places like Europe, Australia, and Especially in China. Where the automakers are all on more equal footing.

In the US however, American manufacturers are sadled with Govt regulation that just doesnt exist in other parts of the world. Try importing a new Japanese spec Subaru sometime, and see how much it costs you to update it to meet US federal regulations.

For 40 years the best selling vehicles in America were large trucks. That's what the buying public said they wanted the most with their checkbooks. So that's what GM puts the most stock in. So over a period of less than a year, the price of Gasoline more than DOUBLES, and we want to blame GM for not having a car that gets 40 mpg out fast enough? Very fickle.

It's amazing the short memory span some folks have. If you recall, GM sold the GEO metro, 10 years ago, which got as good, or better gas mileage than the current high tech Prius. But guess what, Nobody wanted them. Gas was cheap. Who cared about a car that get's 50 some odd miles to the gallon. And GM lost money selling them.

Such fickle consumers are we.


But back to your question, as to why we taxpayers should bail out a company who's employees make exorbiant hourly wages.

First, tell the guys down the road from me at the GM Moraine plant that are making $11 an hour how over paid they are. Then look for your teeth on the ground.

Secondly, the Pensions, Benefits, and wages of those very few first tier workers who are still there, or the vast numbers of retirees who still recieve benefits signed on for that deal when the US, and world economy as a whole was a completely different animal. And now should we allow those retirees who have planned their lives around what they worked for, and what was promised to them end up in the streets? What kind of financial debacle would THAT create? I'm sure none of us want to find out. Sadly the situation the big 3 are in is primarily NOT of their own doing. The rules were changed on them with the implementation of world trade. Not that they've done everything perfectly. For sure they've stepped on their dicks quite a few times, but Global trade is in the process of killing every single manufacturing type job in this country.

I'm simply amazed at how many folks fail to see this one simple fact. We are litterally selling our country, and it's workforce down the river for a higher profit margin from 3rd world labor, and environmental practices.

Which reminds me... so many americans are very vocal in their resistance to more drilling for domestic oil because of the enviromental concerns.

You never hear of these same people bitching about the Factories that do what used to be US jobs, now in foreign countries, such as Poland, China, India, that are Dumping raw industrial waste into the rivers, and into the air. I guess since it's not happening in our own back yard it doesnt matter. If you don't believe it's happening, I've seen it firsthand in Krosno Poland.

I gotta quit reading this thread. It's worse than politics. Theres no winning your argument, no changing peoples minds, and all it does is raise the bloodpressure.

God Bless us all.
Jade

[Jon Silberman]

Silly me. I had actually thought that in a capitalist system, when you build crap and don't evolve with the times, you're supposed to go out of business.

[DiazDude]

Silly me. I had actually thought that in a capitalist system, when you build crap and don't evolve with the times, you're supposed to go out of business.

But if Behringer goes out of business it won't cost taxpayers upwards of 200 Billion.

[Bill Brasky]

Or $52,000/minute, according to the Associated Press. Is it time to let the dying beast fail, or should it be bailed out to fight another day?

They're not being "bailed out". Those are loans that are supposed to be paid back with interest. Instead of letting the companies fail, why not let the unions that are anchors around their neck fail? They'll never be able to make competitive priced cars with the UAW.

[The_Whale]

How many billions from the government will it take to keep GM in business? (And not "in charity")


Probably more than bancruptcy will cost, that's why GM can't raise enough money in the free market.

GM should declare bancruptcy; cancel all contracts with unions, dealers, parts suppliers, etc, and start over. Then maybe the government can come up with some money to cover any short term cashflow issues.

But until GM can come up with a viable long term plan (which they don't have now, that's why nobody will lend them anymore money) there's no reason to through good money after bad.

[The_Whale]

They're not being "bailed out". Those are loans that are supposed to be paid back with interest.



How can GM pay back these loans?

[Trout]

How can GM pay back these loans?



Why should an entity loan money if it is already 10 trillion dollars in dept?

I said it befor earlier,


If the financers are 10 trillion dollars in debit, They should continue to Loan more money? Who's money?

There are bigger fish to fry with those dollars rather than a car company that has failed itself repeatedly.


Throwing more money at GM is just prolonging the inevitable. Let Ford and GM merge, forget Chrysler, they are selected for extinction because they are privately owned by fat cats that only bought them to further line their pockets.

[DiazDude]

How can GM pay back these loans?

At least there's a chance they will but my question is...
Who is going to pick up the unemployment tab & medical costs for the workers who'll lose their jobs and their dependants..lost revenue from GM & former workers not paying any taxes along with all the employees of suppliers that will lose their jobs too. Not to mention the further damage it'll do to the economy.
Think that's going to be repaid?

[GerryJ]

GM should declare bancruptcy; cancel all contracts with unions, dealers, parts suppliers, etc, and start over. Then maybe the government can come up with some money to cover any short term cashflow issues.


exactly -that's the whole point of chapter 11 bankruptcy (reorganization).
No one's talking chapter 7 (complete liquidation and the company's gone).

Chapter 11 is part of the american system - reinventing yourself; second chances. Whatever the reasons, regardless of blame, the world has changed.

[GerryJ]

At least there's a chance they will but my question is...
Who is going to pick up the unemployment tab & medical costs for the workers who'll lose their jobs and their dependants..

You know the answer to that; it's one of the two certainties Ben Franklin pointed out ~230 years ago.

[DiazDude]

You know the answer to that; it's one of the two certainties Ben Franklin pointed out ~230 years ago.

We have a winner!!! :AOK

[americananalog]

It's a tough question. Personally, I don't like GM because of their business practices (product quality not withstanding). However, if GM failed they would take down thousands of businesses along with them. It's a scary thought. What if you were a business owner (and many of you are) and your #1 client went belly up, would your business survive right now?

[Blue Strat]

It's a tough question. Personally, I don't like GM because of their business practices (product quality not withstanding). However, if GM failed they would take down thousands of businesses along with them. It's a scary thought. What if you were a business owner (and many of you are) and your #1 client went belly up, would your business survive right now?



... and that's likely just the tip of the iceberg. You can't put 1 million + people out of work without creating shockwaves through the entire economy...for years.

Very serious situation.

[NuSkoolTone]

I'll leave the argument about me being "way off base" alone.

First off, the Auto market is not a "Dying" buisness. We just happen to be going thru some extremely tough economic times, that are affecting ALL auto manufacturers. I think there was another Mega thread about the cause of the bank/housing fiasco that's as much to blame for all this as anything else, so no need to rehash here.

General Motors is actually doing very well in places like Europe, Australia, and Especially in China. Where the automakers are all on more equal footing.

*SNIP*


But back to your question, as to why we taxpayers should bail out a company who's employees make exorbiant hourly wages.

First, tell the guys down the road from me at the GM Moraine plant that are making $11 an hour how over paid they are. Then look for your teeth on the ground.

*SNIP*

I'm simply amazed at how many folks fail to see this one simple fact. We are litterally selling our country, and it's workforce down the river for a higher profit margin from 3rd world labor, and environmental practices.

Which reminds me... so many americans are very vocal in their resistance to more drilling for domestic oil because of the enviromental concerns.

*SNIP*
I gotta quit reading this thread. It's worse than politics. Theres no winning your argument, no changing peoples minds, and all it does is raise the bloodpressure.

God Bless us all.
Jade

Ok, so suppose it's "Good" to bailout GM. Perhaps we should pursue another direction. Such as correctiong the societal, corporate, and government issues/policies that got us where we are today. Where to we begin to correct the issues where average pay has not kept up with inflation? Or the fact that a family could have a modest living (House, maybe TWO cars) on ONE salary (And ONLY 40 hrs/week I might add) and this was COMMON?

Makes you wonder how we must be making HALF what we used to then eh? WHO do we point the finger at? Now that they have the money and control, how do we get them to relinquish it?

We have more "stuff" but we have to work TWICE as hard for it!

[americananalog]

In the 1940s factories and automotive plants were rapidly retooled to help with the war effort. Perhaps they could be retooled again to make other things that are in greater demand. With the massive infrastructure they already have in place (highly secured facilities, rail access, distribution networks) the possibilities are very interesting.

[Jade]

Ok, so suppose it's "Good" to bailout GM. Perhaps we should pursue another direction. Such as correctiong the societal, corporate, and government issues/policies that got us where we are today. Where to we begin to correct the issues where average pay has not kept up with inflation? Or the fact that a family could have a modest living (House, maybe TWO cars) on ONE salary (And ONLY 40 hrs/week I might add) and this was COMMON?

Makes you wonder how we must be making HALF what we used to then eh? WHO do we point the finger at? Now that they have the money and control, how do we get them to relinquish it?

We have more "stuff" but we have to work TWICE as hard for it!

I couldnt agree with you more. Unfortunately, the conversation that would entail is specificly not allowed on this forum.

Jade

[sovtekking]

I don't think anyone wants GM to go out of business but no one wants to pay for JOE the CEO to make 50 million a year while the taxpayer is fronting the money for his business. I think that if the government has to get involved to save the business then there should be criminal charges filed against the CEOs that allowed the company to go belly up while their still making bonus checks and riding in their own personal jets. Get those F%$ers out of their 10K dollar suits and make them get down there and put some of those Tahoes and suburbans together for $12/hr. Last time I checked the American Taxpayer wasn't responsible for a business that was going under...and unless I'm mistaken this is a capitalist economy...OH YEAH...I am mistaken!!! haha

No one should have to front the bailout money unless we get to see some crooked CEOs get CRUCIFIED and/or burnt at the stake and by that I mean we liquidate their funds and throw their A$$es in the lockup for driving a company into the ground by making what is obviously a sub-standard automobile. If they can't do this then they deserve to disappear no matter what it does to the economy.

Furthermore I wonder what would happen to the economy if the taxpayers were given back 400-500 billion dollars to pay off our mortgages and other debts.

[Jade]

In the 1940s factories and automotive plants were rapidly retooled to help with the war effort. Perhaps they could be retooled again to make other things that are in greater demand. With the massive infrastructure they already have in place (highly secured facilities, rail access, distribution networks) the possibilities are very interesting.

It's a nice sentiment, and I'm sure a lot of people wish it were as simple as that. The problem is that aside from automobiles there is almost NOTHING that actually get's manufactured here because it's simply cheaper to build it somewhere else, and Labor costs are only a VERY small part of that equation. EPA regulation, taxes, OSHA regulations, Child Labor laws etc are the main reasons.

I'll give you a perfect example: I used to work at a large GM plant. I was there for 18 years. They had a very large chrome plating operation at this plant. There was an outside contractor that was there every single day with a HUGE truck the size of a cement truck that sucked out all the chrome waste, and took it away, and disposed of it in an EPA aproved manner. The company opened up a new plant in Krosno Poland that built the exact same products, then shipped them back to us for final assembly. When they opened up the new Poland plant some of the engineers, and jobsetters from our plant were dispatched to Krosno to help get them up, and running. One of the Engineers who went, who is a friend of mine named Mike, took some pictures, and brought them back.

Guess what they did with the chrome waste at that plant? You guessed it... It went out a pipe into the local stream. And the local Krosno govt didnt give a shit becasue they were getting paid. That's just one of many wonderfull cost saving strategies used in these countries. You cannot compete with that type of manufacturing in the US.

When those parts from poland started coming on line. Over 30% of them were out of spec, and had to be scrapped. I asked my superiors how we could be saving money by throwing 30% of em away. They said it was so cheap to build them over there, that we could throw half of them away, and still save money.

When NAFTA was put into effect, the whole Idea was that it would hurt for a little bit untill the Mexican standard of living rose enough that it wasnt that tough to compete with. Well just about the time the mexicans decided they deserved a decent wage, and decent working conditions, most of those plants got closed down, and moved to some other place where there was cheaper labor, and no environmental restrictions. The thing of it is, as long as these practices are allowed, corporations will never run out of very poor nations and people to exploit.


Jade

[FeloniousBishop]

And now should we allow those retirees who have planned their lives around what they worked for, and what was promised to them end up in the streets?

Who exactly are "we?" The people of the United States? Do you think the people of the US should bail out every person in the US who was the victim of a deal that went sour, in which they ended up with less than they were promised? That's not how it works. These situations are always resolved between the parties, not between the hard done by and the rest of the American citizens. The failing auto makers need to be allowed to go into chapter 11 and settle a division of the assets with the pension funds. It doesn't mean the workers wil get nothing, but getting out of these outdated pension agreements is necessary for the American car manufacturers to become viable again. Those agreements were the product of a bygone era.

Sadly the situation the big 3 are in is primarily NOT of their own doing.

This is not true. The UAW and the auto manufacturers entered into these pension agreements of their own doing. These pension plans are the main underlying reason the US auto industry is in the mess it's in. Companies like Honda and Toyota are suffering too in the current economy but the pension plans are the main reason the US manufacturers suffer more. The massive financial drain on these American companies from these pension plans has severely hampered their ability to invest in their future products. You also have to blame them for not having the foresight the Japanese had to bring better high mpg vehicles to the market at the right time, again, of their own doing, but also tied to my previous point.

[Jade]

Who exactly are "we?" The people of the United States? Do you think the people of the US should bail out every person in the US who was the victim of a deal that went sour, in which they ended up with less than they were promised? That's not how it works. These situations are always resolved between the parties, not between the hard done by and the rest of the American citizens. The failing auto makers need to be allowed to go into chapter 11 and settle a division of the assets with the pension funds. It doesn't mean the workers wil get nothing, but getting out of these outdated pension agreements is necessary for the American car manufacturers to become viable again. Those agreements were the product of a bygone era.

Yes, I absolutely mean "We" the taxpayers... who else? My tax dollars are going to fight a war I don't believe in, to feed people in countries I honestly don't give a damn about, to save the habitiats of species of animals I've never seen, and have no effect on me, to pay for housing, clothing, and food for worthless lazy asses in this country who've never worked a day in their lives.... so yeah, I would love to see some of my tax dollars actually used for something that just might be benificial to a whole bunch of people who've invested the best years of their lives in the auto industry. Not just because the people who were originaly promised and worked their lives for a living wage retirement should get it, but even more importantly because in a case as large as the US auto industry, it's in our best interest to ensure that GM et al stay in buisness, and get turned around. Like I said before, you think things are bad now? Let the US auto industry colapse, and then we'll talk about bad. Catastrophic, for you, me, and most every other person in this country, and a bunch outside our borders as well.





This is not true. The UAW and the auto manufacturers entered into these pension agreements of their own doing. These pension plans are the main underlying reason the US auto industry is in the mess it's in. Companies like Honda and Toyota are suffering too in the current economy but the pension plans are the main reason the US manufacturers suffer more. The massive financial drain on these American companies from these pension plans has severely hampered their ability to invest in their future products. You also have to blame them for not having the foresight the Japanese had to bring better high mpg vehicles to the market at the right time, again, of their own doing, but also tied to my previous point.


Of course the entered into these agreements of their own doing. And at that time, the economic situation in this country would allow them to sustain these contracts, and still turn a profit. As for the Japanese, They're having the EXACT same issues in their own country with pension plans. You can read all about it right here. http://lauder.wharton.upenn.edu/pdf/SarahIngmanson_Thesis.pdf

Very smart of them to not offer their American workers the same benefits they offer their domestic employees.

As for the Foresight of the Japanese, and the fuel efficient cars, I think I already addressed this earlier, but GM DID offer the Geo Metro over 10 years ago that got over 50mpg. I actually have a brother in law who just bought a used one, and drives it back and forth to work, but at the time they were new, gas was cheap, and nobody wanted them. No market for em... GM quit selling em. Simple as that. Explain to me how THEY screwed up. The buying public screwed up as much as anyone, and even more to the point, we ALL got screwed by artificially inflated oil prices.

Of course GM also has the Chevy Volt coming out next year which should get the equivelant of more than double the mileage that the prius gets. I notice you didnt mention that.

But by then gas will be probably be dirt cheap again, and nobody will buy them, and they'll quit selling them. And you can accuse GM of not being on the ball again next time gas prices double in a 12 month period, and they didnt see it coming in a crystall ball 2 years ahead of time so they could get YET ANOTHER new fuel saver ready for the roads.

Jade

[Bones]

Yes, I absolutely mean "We" the taxpayers... who else? My tax dollars are going to fight a war I don't believe in, to feed people in countries I honestly don't give a damn about, to save the habitiats of species of animals I've never seen, and have no effect on me, to pay for housing, clothing, and food for worthless lazy asses in this country who've never worked a day in their lives.... so yeah, I would love to see some of my tax dollars actually used for something that just might be benificial to a whole bunch of people who've invested the best years of their lives in the auto industry. Not just because the people who were originaly promised and worked their lives for a living wage retirement should get it, but even more importantly because in a case as large as the US auto industry, it's in our best interest to ensure that GM et al stay in buisness, and get turned around. Like I said before, you think things are bad now? Let the US auto industry colapse, and then we'll talk about bad. Catastrophic, for you, me, and most every other person in this country, and a bunch outside our borders as well.







Of course the entered into these agreements of their own doing. And at that time, the economic situation in this country would allow them to sustain these contracts, and still turn a profit. As for the Japanese, They're having the EXACT same issues in their own country with pension plans. You can read all about it right here. http://lauder.wharton.upenn.edu/pdf/SarahIngmanson_Thesis.pdf

Very smart of them to not offer their American workers the same benefits they offer their domestic employees.

As for the Foresight of the Japanese, and the fuel efficient cars, I think I already addressed this earlier, but GM DID offer the Geo Metro over 10 years ago that got over 50mpg. I actually have a brother in law who just bought a used one, and drives it back and forth to work, but at the time they were new, gas was cheap, and nobody wanted them. No market for em... GM quit selling em. Simple as that. Explain to me how THEY screwed up. The buying public screwed up as much as anyone, and even more to the point, we ALL got screwed by artificially inflated oil prices.

Of course GM also has the Chevy Volt coming out next year which should get the equivelant of more than double the mileage that the prius gets. I notice you didnt mention that.

But by then gas will be probably be dirt cheap again, and nobody will buy them, and they'll quit selling them. And you can accuse GM of not being on the ball again next time gas prices double in a 12 month period, and they didnt see it coming in a crystall ball 2 years ahead of time so they could get YET ANOTHER new fuel saver ready for the roads.

Jade

You obviously have a strong bias towards your own industry, but as I mentioned earlier in this thread, over 600,000 residential construction jobs have been lost ( with more losses every day)and no one is trying to save those people. that's fewer work trucks being bought, supply yards laying off drivers and yard workers and a lot less business and money going around as a result.

It all depends are your perspective, but the resdiential construction industry is going down in flames and will take a lot of peripheral businesses down with it and add to the already staggering foreclosure crisis as those workers lose their homes. The difference is, it's not an industry concentrated in a few key areas and not an industry that votes en masse.

[Blue Strat]

to pay for housing, clothing, and food for worthless lazy asses in this country who've never worked a day in their lives

Hey, don't be so hard on Wall Streeters. They're people too! :roll

[Trout]

Explain to me how THEY screwed up. The buying public screwed up as much as anyone, and even more to the point, we ALL got screwed by artificially inflated oil prices.


The auto industry created the huge SUV market just like Da Beers marketed the diamond as valuable.

The majority of SUV and other large vehicles are marketed as fashion statements and status symbols.
Had they marketed their high mileage auto's and trucks with the same intensity they would have sold them.

Take the old pickup truck chassis, add a hundred whistles and bells, make it sexy to own and cash in on the markup was the game plan.
They created the market, simple.

[DiazDude]

The auto industry created the huge SUV market just like Da Beers marketed the diamond as valuable.

The majority of SUV and other large vehicles are marketed as fashion statements and status symbols.
Had they marketed their high mileage auto's and trucks with the same intensity they would have sold them.

Take the old pickup truck chassis, add a hundred whistles and bells, make it sexy to own and cash in on the markup was the game plan.
They created the market, simple.

I must have missed the stories about the gun being held to the heads of the mindless consumers who bought these "sexy" vehicles.

Just like I'm sure you had no choice in your gear either :messedup...
Richter 5E3
Univox U1511 150W
Seymour Duncan 100W convertable
DIY Monster Champ SE 807
1973 Marshall Lead 100W/restored
Restored McIntosh MC240
Richter RS-5.8 5W

Sexy

[lcjc800]

:munch

[Trout]

I must have missed the stories about the gun being held to the heads of the mindless consumers who bought these "sexy" vehicles.


You deny they invented the SUV market? interesting
:BEER

[DiazDude]

You deny they invented the SUV market? interesting
:BEER
The market for it..no. Newsflash....No business brings a product to market unless there is a demand for that product not the other way around.
Anyway what does that have to do with the public's choice to buy or not to buy?
Tell me how markerting turns consumers into mindless buying zombies because thats what you're saying the U.S. auto industry has done.

Wait a minute..there's a add for kitty litter on TV...I must buy some even though I don't have a cat..I must have it!! REALLY.

[Kingbeegtrs]

Just about every American is to blame in some way or another. Either we were buying, selling, or financing things that we didn't need/couldn't afford. Can we learn from it?

[DiazDude]

Just about every American is to blame in some way or another. Either we were buying, selling, or financing things that we didn't need/couldn't afford. Can we learn from it?

Very well said sir!!

[scott]

Yes, I absolutely mean "We" the taxpayers... who else? My tax dollars are going to fight a war I don't believe in, to feed people in countries I honestly don't give a damn about, to save the habitiats of species of animals I've never seen, and have no effect on me, to pay for housing, clothing, and food for worthless lazy asses in this country who've never worked a day in their lives.... so yeah, I would love to see some of my tax dollars actually used for something that just might be benificial to a whole bunch of people who've invested the best years of their lives in the auto industry. Not just because the people who were originaly promised and worked their lives for a living wage retirement should get it, but even more importantly because in a case as large as the US auto industry, it's in our best interest to ensure that GM et al stay in buisness, and get turned around. Like I said before, you think things are bad now? Let the US auto industry colapse, and then we'll talk about bad. Catastrophic, for you, me, and most every other person in this country, and a bunch outside our borders as well.


to feed people in countries you honestly don't give a damn about, to save the habitiats of species of animals youve never seen, and have no effect on you.....
Dude, I have no words to describe the selfish arogant tone of this post. Unbelieveable is as close as I can come. A perfect example of the me me I syndrome that is driving the country into the ground.

[Jade]

You obviously have a strong bias towards your own industry, but as I mentioned earlier in this thread, over 600,000 residential construction jobs have been lost ( with more losses every day)and no one is trying to save those people. that's fewer work trucks being bought, supply yards laying off drivers and yard workers and a lot less business and money going around as a result.

It all depends are your perspective, but the resdiential construction industry is going down in flames and will take a lot of peripheral businesses down with it and add to the already staggering foreclosure crisis as those workers lose their homes. The difference is, it's not an industry concentrated in a few key areas and not an industry that votes en masse.


Hey Bones that's a great point, but since the residential construction industry isn't dominated by 3 companies, it's a different nut to crack. The construction industry is in a shambles because of the after effects of the sub prime housing crisis. So the best way to fix the construction industry is to fix the housing industry as a whole, which the Gov't IS doing something about.

It may not be DIRECT help that the construction industry is gettting, but it will come indirectly thru the the 700 Billion dollar bailout that should get the housing market moving again, and contractors working again.

As for my bias... I'm not in the auto industry Havnt been for 4 years. I don't have any stock in GM, and I don't recieve pension, or benefits from them. As a matter of fact the only GM vehicle I own is a '67 Chevelle.

I just see things a certain way, and I'm sure a bunch of folks think I'm wrong. That's OK. I know I'm right... I've only been wrong once. LOL:crazy

Jade

[FeloniousBishop]

Yes, I absolutely mean "We" the taxpayers... who else? My tax dollars are going to fight a war I don't believe in, to feed people in countries I honestly don't give a damn about, to save the habitiats of species of animals I've never seen, and have no effect on me, to pay for housing, clothing, and food for worthless lazy asses in this country who've never worked a day in their lives....

You're using the two wrongs make a right approach here. I don't find it compelling. Do you realize that once you go down that road there are a hundred other special interest group who could make the same argument to get some of everyone else's money? Not compelling at all.

You want me, and many others, to give you money because of the breakdown of the financial position of one of two private parties who entered into an agreement with each other. I hope you understand if I prefer to keep my hard earned money. I need it to pay for my kids' college and my own retirement. I don't have a pension, you see. I don't agree the failing pension agreements from the past should be held to at 100 cents on the dollar given the financial weakening of GM. It needs to be settled.

Aren't you willing to look at maybe accepting getting some amount of pennies on the dollar based on the actual assets that GM has in hand, since the original agreement was between you and GM?


so yeah, I would love to see some of my tax dollars actually used for something that just might be benificial to a whole bunch of people who've invested the best years of their lives in the auto industry. Not just because the people who were originaly promised and worked their lives for a living wage retirement should get it,

Please explain why they "should" get all of it, when geting all of it means taking someone else's money, against their will. What about the reduction in value of millions of people's 401k funds due to the downturn? That's their retirment too. Do you think the govt (i.e. other taxpayers including yourself) should refund all of those losses at 100 cents on the dollar too?

but even more importantly because in a case as large as the US auto industry, it's in our best interest to ensure that GM et al stay in buisness, and get turned around. Like I said before, you think things are bad now? Let the US auto industry colapse, and then we'll talk about bad. Catastrophic, for you, me, and most every other person in this country, and a bunch outside our borders as well.

Well as a matter of fact I would like to see the US auto industry get stronger. And manufactuing in general in this country. Instead of seeing all those jobs shipped overseas. But sucking all the blood out of GM by not being willing to compromise on settling the old pension ageements is one of the main causes of the impending collapse.



Of course the entered into these agreements of their own doing. And at that time, the economic situation in this country would allow them to sustain these contracts, and still turn a profit. As for the Japanese, They're having the EXACT same issues in their own country with pension plans. You can read all about it right here. http://lauder.wharton.upenn.edu/pdf/SarahIngmanson_Thesis.pdf

Very smart of them to not offer their American workers the same benefits they offer their domestic employees.

As for the Foresight of the Japanese, and the fuel efficient cars, I think I already addressed this earlier, but GM DID offer the Geo Metro over 10 years ago that got over 50mpg. I actually have a brother in law who just bought a used one, and drives it back and forth to work, but at the time they were new, gas was cheap, and nobody wanted them. No market for em... GM quit selling em. Simple as that. Explain to me how THEY screwed up. The buying public screwed up as much as anyone, and even more to the point, we ALL got screwed by artificially inflated oil prices.

Market timing. Probably not as good quality a product. You think every time a company has a product that doesn't do well in the market place the taxpayers should give the company money as a consolation prize?

Of course GM also has the Chevy Volt coming out next year which should get the equivelant of more than double the mileage that the prius gets. I notice you didnt mention that.

You're off base here with that comment. I would like to see the American auto industry, and American manufacturing in general, get stronger.

But by then gas will be probably be dirt cheap again, and nobody will buy them, and they'll quit selling them. And you can accuse GM of not being on the ball again next time gas prices double in a 12 month period, and they didnt see it coming in a crystall ball 2 years ahead of time so they could get YET ANOTHER new fuel saver ready for the roads.

Jade

[Jade]

to feed people in countries you honestly don't give a damn about, to save the habitiats of species of animals youve never seen, and have no effect on you.....
Dude, I have no words to describe the selfish arogant tone of this post. Unbelieveable is as close as I can come. A perfect example of the me me I syndrome that is driving the country into the ground.


I knew that would ruffle some feathers. Selfish and arrogant? My point is that we the taxpayer are saddled with paying for TONS of things that just might not be as important as some of the other things.

Yes... wer're feeding people in other counties, I think we should stop. Selfish? Sorry, I just don't see it that way. Our country is in a MESS, one that could turn out to be catastrophic meltdown, we should take care of our own for a while. Let someone else feed the worlds hungry for a while.

Saving the animals.... yup, makes ya feel all nice warm and fuzzy to do it. Once again. Fix the economy first... then save the siberian hoot owl.

Or maybe I'm just selfish and arrogant. Yeah that's it.

Jade

Oh yeah, I almost forgot, I dontated $2000 to the United Way last year. How much did you give to charity?

[loudboy]

And you can accuse GM of not being on the ball again next time gas prices double in a 12 month period, and they didnt see it coming in a crystall ball 2 years ahead of time so they could get YET ANOTHER new fuel saver ready for the roads.

Jade

Anybody even peripherally involved w/the oil business has known for MANY years that the stuff is going to run out, and prices are going to skyrocket...

Hubbert made his oil supply predictions decades ago, and no credible refutation has appeared. The end of cheap oil is here...

Any car company that has placed short-term profits before setting themselves up for the long run, has only themselves to blame, IMHO.

[loudboy]

First, tell the guys down the road from me at the GM Moraine plant that are making $11 an hour how over paid they are. Then look for your teeth on the ground.


1. If they can't build a product that people want to buy, while making a profit for the company, then yes, they are overpaid. Simple economics.

2. That sort of thuggish behavior and sense of entitlement is EXACTLY what has turned Joe Public against bailing out these guys. If they're lucky enough to land a job like this, with minimal skills, in today's economy, they should be on their knees every morning giving thanks.

[Jade]

Overpaid? at $11 an hour? are you completely delusional?

Sense of entitlement? We're talking about people who are BUSTING THEIR ASSES everyday at a physicly demanding, mentally demeaning job for what is barely over minium wage, and they should be on their knees every morning givning thanks for it? In todays economy, I suppose we should all be thankfull for our means of supporting ourselves, but it's truely sad that the american public can watch the american standard of living be taken down notch by notch, piece by piece, reduced to nothing more than a service industry, and a large portion of the "Joe Public" as you put it are too shortsighted to see the eventual effects it will have on us all.

Jade

[loudboy]

Overpaid? at $11 an hour? are you completely delusional?

Sense of entitlement? We're talking about people who are BUSTING THEIR ASSES everyday at a physicly demanding, mentally demeaning job for what is barely over minium wage, and they should be on their knees every morning givning thanks for it? In todays economy, I suppose we should all be thankfull for our means of supporting ourselves, but it's truely sad that the american public can watch the american standard of living be taken down notch by notch, piece by piece, reduced to nothing more than a service industry, and a large portion of the "Joe Public" as you put it are too shortsighted to see the eventual effects it will have on us all.

Jade

If when trying to talk to them, they would punch me in the mouth at the suggestion that they were overpaid, then yes, they have a bad attitude. What exactly is that going to do to turn public sentiment in their favor? 80% of the American public wants to let them fail, precisely because of attitudes like that.

How many of them have made one iota of effort to improve their skills and be competitive in the marketplace? If you squeaked through highschool, blew off college and feel that somehow you should be able to make as much as a teacher, social worker or research scientist w/advanced degrees, I'm afraid that's a pretty big sense of entitlement. If you managed to luck into a job where you can, you should be thanking the heavens, not threatening to sock someone in the mouth. And then expect them to bail you out.

Sure, someone needs to build cars. And someone needs to work retail. Some people are only qualified either mentally or physically, to do jobs like that. That doesn't mean that they deserve to make a huge amount of money for it, or have a lifelong pension/benefits. Thye deserve a wage commensurate w/their skills/initiative.

It's a different world than it was in the 50's, for better or worse, but clinging to nostalgia and an outmoded worldview are not going to get us out of this problem.

[DoubleRGuitars]

i'd say bail them out if they were moving vehicles in a greener, more economical direction, but they're not. ridiculous, and often unjustifiable, gas guzzlers galore.

[Trout]

The market for it..no. Newsflash....No business brings a product to market unless there is a demand for that product not the other way around.
Anyway what does that have to do with the public's choice to buy or not to buy?
Tell me how markerting turns consumers into mindless buying zombies because thats what you're saying the U.S. auto industry has done.

Wait a minute..there's a add for kitty litter on TV...I must buy some even though I don't have a cat..I must have it!! REALLY.

If you do not think SUV propaganda effects the consumer, then ask your self is it just a coincidence that SUVs became trendy after SUV advertising rose nearly nine-fold from $172.5 million in 1990 to $1.5 billion in 2000

SUVs represented nearly half of all automotive advertising during the first quarter, according to a recent study from Nielsen/NetRatings.

In the case of SUV consumers, the auto company marketers start by implanting the subliminal message you can be tough, independent and sexy, if ya buy and drive our brand of SUV.
Notice many ads show an SUV in a wilderness, the H2 ads show it off-roading in Iceland (the viewer is shown beautiful people conquering nature and having fun). In some National Geographic print ads for Toyota, they show back packers with their SUVs in the wilderness, with the slogan “oh what a feeling.”
The basic idea of an auto company ad campaign is to associate driving their SUV with the idea of being sexy, tough and independent. The tough and independent image of driving an SUV is further reinforced by the name of the vehicle (Path Finder, Trail Blazer, Mountaineer, Escape, Explorer, Expedition, etc.). Constant exposure to slick ads fools people into thinking they can “walk the walk” of being independent and tough just by buying the SUV shown in the idealized dreamland of advertisers.

I hate to see GM fail itself, but they(corp execs) made their bed.

We bought our daughter an Chevy Aveo this past fall for school, Why? The same reason we bought all of our Practical Cars. Afforability and economical operation.

[DiazDude]

1. If they can't build a product that people want to buy, while making a profit for the company, then yes, they are overpaid. Simple economics.

2. That sort of thuggish behavior and sense of entitlement is EXACTLY what has turned Joe Public against bailing out these guys. If they're lucky enough to land a job like this, with minimal skills, in today's economy, they should be on their knees every morning giving thanks.

Overpaid? at $11 an hour? are you completely delusional?

Sense of entitlement? We're talking about people who are BUSTING THEIR ASSES everyday at a physicly demanding, mentally demeaning job for what is barely over minium wage, and they should be on their knees every morning givning thanks for it? In todays economy, I suppose we should all be thankfull for our means of supporting ourselves, but it's truely sad that the american public can watch the american standard of living be taken down notch by notch, piece by piece, reduced to nothing more than a service industry, and a large portion of the "Joe Public" as you put it are too shortsighted to see the eventual effects it will have on us all.

Jade

If when trying to talk to them, they would punch me in the mouth at the suggestion that they were overpaid, then yes, they have a bad attitude. What exactly is that going to do to turn public sentiment in their favor? 80% of the American public wants to let them fail, precisely because of attitudes like that.

How many of them have made one iota of effort to improve their skills and be competitive in the marketplace? If you squeaked through highschool, blew off college and feel that somehow you should be able to make as much as a teacher, social worker or research scientist w/advanced degrees, I'm afraid that's a pretty big sense of entitlement. If you managed to luck into a job where you can, you should be thanking the heavens, not threatening to sock someone in the mouth. And then expect them to bail you out.

Sure, someone needs to build cars. And someone needs to work retail. Some people are only qualified either mentally or physically, to do jobs like that. That doesn't mean that they deserve to make a huge amount of money for it, or have a lifelong pension/benefits. Thye deserve a wage commensurate w/their skills/initiative.

It's a different world than it was in the 50's, for better or worse, but clinging to nostalgia and an outmoded worldview are not going to get us out of this problem.

I've read some ignorant, narrow and short sighted statements but these take the cake.
I truly feel sorry for you man..thinking like this is third world.

[DiazDude]

If you do not think SUV propaganda effects the consumer, then ask your self is it just a coincidence that SUVs became trendy after SUV advertising rose nearly nine-fold from $172.5 million in 1990 to $1.5 billion in 2000

SUVs represented nearly half of all automotive advertising during the first quarter, according to a recent study from Nielsen/NetRatings.

In the case of SUV consumers, the auto company marketers start by implanting the subliminal message you can be tough, independent and sexy, if ya buy and drive our brand of SUV.
Notice many ads show an SUV in a wilderness, the H2 ads show it off-roading in Iceland (the viewer is shown beautiful people conquering nature and having fun). In some National Geographic print ads for Toyota, they show back packers with their SUVs in the wilderness, with the slogan “oh what a feeling.”
The basic idea of an auto company ad campaign is to associate driving their SUV with the idea of being sexy, tough and independent. The tough and independent image of driving an SUV is further reinforced by the name of the vehicle (Path Finder, Trail Blazer, Mountaineer, Escape, Explorer, Expedition, etc.). Constant exposure to slick ads fools people into thinking they can “walk the walk” of being independent and tough just by buying the SUV shown in the idealized dreamland of advertisers.

I hate to see GM fail itself, but they(corp execs) made their bed.

We bought our daughter an Chevy Aveo this past fall for school, Why? The same reason we bought all of our Practical Cars. Afforability and economical operation.

OK you've convinced me..really you have. You must be in marketing yourself.

[Trout]

OK you've convinced me..really you have. You must be in marketing yourself.

Sir,

I really like you and your great debate skill, I also admire your commitment.
BTW, I am/was a carpenter & cabinet maker.

:BEER

[gtrs]

I can't figure out 1 thing. How are we supposed to be a stronger economic power if we let the Big 3 fall? By purchasing vehicles from companies based outside the U.S.?????

That's the biggest mistake we can make. If we actually taxed all those cheap imports the same we they tax OUR cars when they come into THERE country we would see things very differently. Our own government is also to blame for this mess.

The Big 3 have been around for a long time with lot's of retiree's.
What happens when they lose there pension?
What happens when the imports in another 20 years or so have the same number of retiree's? Price tag goes way up.

[DiazDude]

Sir,

I really like you and your great debate skill, I also admire your commitment.
BTW, I am/was a carpenter & cabinet maker.

:BEER

Thanks..I pride myself in knowing when reason makes no difference to others in a discussion. And this is one of those times.
:BEER

[dharmafool]

Anybody even peripherally involved w/the oil business has known for MANY years that the stuff is going to run out, and prices are going to skyrocket...

Hubbert made his oil supply predictions decades ago, and no credible refutation has appeared. The end of cheap oil is here...

Any car company that has placed short-term profits before setting themselves up for the long run, has only themselves to blame, IMHO.

It's because of these factors (among others) that I'm intrigued by Neil Young's proposal that, as a condition for receiving bailout funds, the automaker(s) must immediately begin retrofitting exisiting inventory with electric motors, while retooling factories to produce next-generation EV technology in all-new models.

I like the pragmatism of Neil's approach. It has the government (representing the wisdom of the market) truly dictating what will be produced, suspending the freedom from free enterprise, so to speak. Ironies abound in that scenario.

But isn't this a suitable punishment of those in positions of responsibility who for 30-odd years have disregarded the long-term interests of their companies, the market, and the planet? And who among us isn't at least a little bit culpable?

Allowing the U.S. auto industry to fail now is unwise because of the chain reaction of other business collapses that would follow. It would amount to a staggering level of deflation and unemployment

Besides, after being played as we have by the U.S. automakers, who would want them to have any chance whatsoever to return to business as usual? Neil's draconian proposal guarantees it won't happen.

In effect, he's saying the U.S. must wake up and make a genuine opportunity out of the awful mess we Americans have created, rather than throwing good money after bad or doing anything that undermines our collective long-term needs.

To me, the question is, are we smart enough and brave enough as a society to use the current crisis as the moment we stop building petroleum-powered vehicles?

[DiazDude]

I can't figure out 1 thing. How are we supposed to be a stronger economic power if we let the Big 3 fall? By purchasing vehicles from companies based outside the U.S.?????

That's the biggest mistake we can make. If we actually taxed all those cheap imports the same we they tax OUR cars when they come into THERE country we would see things very differently. Our own government is also to blame for this mess.

The Big 3 have been around for a long time with lot's of retiree's.
What happens when they lose there pension?
What happens when the imports in another 20 years or so have the same number of retiree's? Price tag goes way up.

None of this matters since the Big 3 are EVIL big business'.
It doesn't matter that over 6 million workers/retirees will be effected. :messedup

[Trout]

The Big 3 have been around for a long time with lot's of retiree's.
What happens when they lose there pension?
What happens when the imports in another 20 years or so have the same number of retiree's? Price tag goes way up.

People have been loosing their pensions and retirement funds in every industry, It is not just related to the auto industry.

I lost a huge portion of my retirement due to the companies I worked for failing, Who bailed me out? I Did.
Since there were only 30 of us involved in our case, our labor claims were swept under the rug just like 10's of thousands of other people who do not work for massive corporations.

The only real reason that they are getting this special attention/help is the sheer volume of tax dollars they generate.

[gtrs]

It's true, lot's of people have been screwed by a smaller company and nobody knew about it. I'm sure it seems like no one cares too.
And your right, it IS all about the tax dollar's they generate. And I personally can't generate any more. Can you? Can any of us?
The Big 3, if bailed out, and they WILL be, should be forced to clean house in every way conceivable. White collar and blue.
One thing is for sure and I'll stand by this comment for the rest of my life.............
I'll always own an American made car.
I'll walk before I'm forced to buy an import.

[Jade]

Whew! Thanks guys. I was beginning to think I was all alone.

The little devil on my shoulder is saying "I hope the US auto industry DOES collapse, and they don't get bailed out". THEN... we can sit back, and laugh at the folks who thought it was a good idea when they realize the very real ramifications this would have on their standard of living as well.

Of course I'd be starving right along with them, but through a hungry smile I could say "Told ya so" LOL

BTW... Is anyone else watching the Bengals/Eagles game? Damn it's good!
Jade

[Trout]

BTW... Is anyone else watching the Bengals/Eagles game? Damn it's good!
Jade

Nope, I was watching Green Bay Stomp My Bears

[loudboy]

I've read some ignorant, narrow and short sighted statements but these take the cake.
I truly feel sorry for you man..thinking like this is third world.

I'm not sure what's narrow-minded, ignorant or third-world about that. He's the one talking about knocking people's teeth out...

Violence and divisiveness is not exactly the way to try and make the people (us) feel sympathetic towards your cause.

There's no easy solution to this mess. The old way is on the way out, time to look at alternatives that cause the least amount of pain for the majority of folks, not wish for the good old days.

"Cradle-to-grave" has been gone, in every industry except automotive, for what - 20 years, now? We've got 2 choices here - remain the same, and go out of business or try alternatives, and maybe pull it off.

[TBoneDeluxe]

Silly me. I had actually thought that in a capitalist system, when you build crap and don't evolve with the times, you're supposed to go out of business.

Post of the century!!

[The_Whale]

I can't figure out 1 thing. How are we supposed to be a stronger economic power if we let the Big 3 fall?

What happens when the imports in another 20 years or so have the same number of retiree's? Price tag goes way up.

The US became an economic power because we let big failures fail and we put our capital into ventures that turn profits. The government is not capable of picking winners and losers. The "winners" are just those with the most powerful lobbyists.

And the foreign makes built her don't have pensions plans, they have 401k.

The problem with the big three's retirement plans is benefits were promised without actually setting aside the money for them.

It's always easy to make promises that you don't have to pay for.

[orogeny]

ho, hum.

meanwhile, honda and toyota are doin' just fine. why is that?

better product.

my father always tole me, "Son, I don't reward underachievement."

He was right.

bonuses will probably be paid to the people at the top with these bailouts.

it's saying, "you suck at what you do, but you have too many employees for us to let you totally fail."

then again, i live in jersey. i'm used to people digging in my pockets.

[loudboy]

ho, hum.

meanwhile, honda and toyota are doin' just fine. why is that?

Toyota's September sales were down 32% - not exactly doing well.

They posted a 13-year low in profits, last week.

People are not buying cars.

[orogeny]

Toyota's September sales were down 32% - not exactly doing well.

They posted a 13-year low in profits, last week.

People are not buying cars.
oh, i understand that. as viable companies, however, they are doing fine.

[The_Whale]

oh, i understand that. as viable companies, however, they are doing fine.


and aren't asking for handouts.....

[loudboy]

oh, i understand that. as viable companies, however, they are doing fine.

Perhaps because they are actually trying to anticipate what products people may want, pay/treat their employees fairly and have structured their business so they can make it through tough times?

[orogeny]

and aren't asking for handouts.....
hard to ask for a handout when you're still profiting over five bill . . . .

that would be a good one though, "we really thought we were going to make ten. could you help us out?"

[The_Whale]

hard to ask for a handout when you're still profiting over five bill . . . .

that would be a good one though, "we really thought we were going to make ten. could you help us out?"


they need better lobbyists....

[gtrs]

ho, hum.

meanwhile, honda and toyota are doin' just fine. why is that?

better product.

You've got to be kidding
You actually think Honda makes a better vehicle than any of the Big 3?
Wow

It's definitely cheaper
I'll give ya that much:rolleyes:

[The_Whale]

You've got to be kidding
You actually think Honda makes a better vehicle than any of the Big 3?
Wow

It's definitely cheaper
I'll give ya that much:rolleyes:

honda isn't asking for a handout...

[orogeny]

You've got to be kidding
You actually think Honda makes a better vehicle than any of the Big 3?
Wow

It's definitely cheaper
I'll give ya that much:rolleyes:
actually, i do. the accord, for starters. they run forever, and have low maintenance costs.

heck, my hyundai has already surpassed every chevy or ford i ever had. runs like new at 135k.

what does the big 3 make that competes with an accord?

[gtrs]

honda isn't asking for a handout...

True, very true.
But you said a better product.
Which is NOT true. All you gotta do is test drive one versus any vehicle from one of the Big 3.

A better run company?
Unfortunately for the U.S. the answer is a resounding YES.

[gtrs]

actually, i do. the accord, for starters. they run forever, and have low maintenance costs.

heck, my hyundai has already surpassed every chevy or ford i ever had. runs like new at 135k.

what does the big 3 make that competes with an accord?

My Ford truck went over 135K, it's no big deal to do if you take care of a vehicle.

[orogeny]

My Ford truck went over 135K, it's no big deal to do if you take care of a vehicle.
tell that to my cavalier and my probe. both junked. got a bottle of whiskey for the probe though. got a free tow for the cavalier. . .

back to the accord. . . ?

[JELLIS]

hard to ask for a handout when you're still profiting over five bill . . . .

that would be a good one though, "we really thought we were going to make ten. could you help us out?"

HA! Not hard for crooks to ask for a handout, that's exactly why they are corrupt thieves and liars, many people are stupid enough to give money to unarmed robbers.

[Bones]

My Ford truck went over 135K, it's no big deal to do if you take care of a vehicle.

My 2000 f150 4x4 has over 160k on it, it still looks and runs like new, except my seat is starting to wear out a bit. When i tell people how old it is, the rarely believe me. I use it every day for construction work, but I take care of it and don't abuse it.

My 1991 Mazda RX7 had 170k on it when I sold it and it's still running and looking great at 17 years old.