Guthrie Govan showing his Jazz chops

[NAV1147]

Hey guys I stumbled on this on another forum. Guthrie sure makes it look easy. I heard through the rumor mill that the Suhr Guthrie Govan signiture will revealed at this coming NAMM. I know Im saving for one. Im really curious what the specs will be. Has anyone heard anything?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EcqF9sJiO8

[rnm14]

As good as it was, it's a Stevie Wonder song called I wish that has been done before in that exact style by Tuck Andress. I didn't detect any jazz except for the very last runs.

But Guthrie is astonishingly good and versatile for sure.

[mikeratan00]

Awesome player.........

[Wagster]

Guthrie is a great player with endless amounts of technique.I might get flamed for saying this but I just don't hear any unique style from him.He seems able to copy and fluently play any style that he chooses.It just always sounds like he's mimicking someones style.Still I wish I could do what he does.It seems like he has no technical flaws.

[TehSuperFox]

As good as it was, it's a Stevie Wonder song called I wish that has been done before in that exact style by Tuck Andress. I didn't detect any jazz except for the very last runs.

But Guthrie is astonishingly good and versatile for sure.

Exactly this.

Guthrie is a really great player though, I love his stuff. I wish he would play some more jazz though.

[johnston]

Guthrie is a great player with endless amounts of technique.I might get flamed for saying this but I just don't hear any unique style from him.He seems able to copy and fluently play any style that he chooses.It just always sounds like he's mimicking someones style.Still I wish I could do what he does.It seems like he has no technical flaws.

i used to feel the same but the more i got into him, the more i began to hear more of his own style, techniques, tone, etc. he's got very specific things he does that stands out as his own. to me, anyway. it's just harder to pick out these things when he does so many things so well.

[daveS]

Man, Guthrie just never ceases to amaze me. Thanks for the post
-d

[Wagster]

i used to feel the same but the more i got into him, the more i began to hear more of his own style, techniques, tone, etc. he's got very specific things he does that stands out as his own. to me, anyway. it's just harder to pick out these things when he does so many things so well.I'll give him another listen.He seems like he does everything well.

[Gas-man]

He has a strong "skill set".

[Lucidology]

WHAT .. what wasn't Jazzy about that ....???

He's having fun with that and plays a lot of really hip stuff ...
Just take it as it is ...

No comparison to Tuck or whomever please ...
Tuck is a, it not the, major player in the solo world..jazz or whatever ..
(not fair to compare ...)

Guthrie is having some slick fun with a classic tune, imposing bass lines & such ...
Listen again, there's some nice chordal work in there ...
And his time is totally on ... now if that ain't jazzy ....

Toward's the end he starts playing some turn around and stuff that's obviously
not part of the I Wish tune ...
And he's playing some swinging stuff ...

IN all due respect, what would someone need to hear if one were to "detect jazz"..

[landru64]

sorry to disagree, but there is not a lot of jazz in there. to the extent that song is being played with the same basic feel as the original, it's DEFINITELY not jazz.

[Lucidology]

sorry to disagree, but there is not a lot of jazz in there. to the extent that song is being played with the same basic feel as the original, it's DEFINITELY not jazz.

Then what does he have to do to make it fall into completely into a jazz catagory ..

Interesting hearing this from you Andrew...
because I greatly admire your playing & musicianship...

So educate moi,,, my ears & eyes are open.,..

Does jazz have to consitute a certain type of feel ..?
Funky swinging stuff is jazzy to my ears ..
even if initially stemming from a pop context

Honestly, maybe I'm really off here ...

[NAV1147]

jazz, blues, rock whatever. its sounds great and I cant wait to get a Surh Guthrie signiture. has anyone heard of what the specs might be?

[landru64]

Then what does he have to do to make it fall into completely into a jazz catagory ..

Interesting hearing this from you Andrew...
because I greatly admire your playing & musicianship...

So educate moi,,, my ears & eyes are open.,..

Does jazz have to consitute a certain type of feel ..?
Funky swinging stuff is jazzy to my ears ..
even if initially stemming from a pop context

Honestly, maybe I'm really off here ...

well thanks but you are way too kind....

what i was just getting at is a really practical definition of jazz (versus jazzy). hard core traditionalists are going to say it's all about the JAZZ swing feel and then you can go the other end with a guy like krantz who is saying that the essence of jazz is innovation and interaction and improvisation. i'm not really trying to tackle that argument. but when i think of jazz chops, i mean a kind of vocabulary (harmony, melody and rhythm) that is kind of within a big broad circle that people on the bandstand would understand. like with this playing example, it's a wonder tune (genius) that i would call swung but in the crack swung, not a jazz swing feel in the least. i think my rhythmic colleagues would reinforce this distinction. and i play a LOT of bass and have since i was young, so i have to communicate with drummers on this level a LOT. it's funky but swung. so it's R&B basically. and that's just the rhythmic aspect. if i were sitting on one of the crap stages i sit on a lot i would expect a bandleader counting off some tune i'd never heard of to say 'swung but in the cracks.' not 'jazz'. and i get my share of gigs, especially lately, when someone is counting off a tune and i'm scrambling to find the chart in the book and the chart is a total piece of crap and dog eared and the leader says 'calypso' or some such thing and i just have to know what that person means. so when i think of 'jazz chops' i just feel it's not really jazz chops he's showing. he's just showing some (admittedly good) chops specific to realizing that tune by himself on a guitar at a convention. :)

to elucidate: if you went up to carl verheyen or any 'well rounded' player and said, show me your jazz chops (versus say his country chops), you'd hear this obvious expression of the forefathers of jazz guitar (or whatever instrument). you'd hear joe pass et al in there. you don't hear that in this clip...i don't think in the least.

hilarious story to further make the point (well you had to be there): had a charity event gig with some big time movie stars and stuff and the band director at one point just looked at us and said 'play jazz'. now it was AWFUL and pointed out how incompetent that particular direction was, but everyone settled into something identifiably 'straight ahead.' the key center was in question :) , but it WAS jazz. real swing feel. walking bass line. jazz chord voicings (govan is playing R&B & campfire chords in a lot of places that, well, just aren't THAT jazzy). etc. and i guess i would say people were using their 'jazz chops'.

(ps the rhythmic discussion here is fresh to me because i just went thru this in my top 40 band, as we added "i wish" to our repertoire about 2 weeks ago...ironically enough...and as the musical director, i have to be on my game in terms of the language i use to correct anyone's musical approach.)

so no big philosophical deal here. and i don't pretend to be a pedagogue or superior in this matter, but it's just maybe good to get centered in the right place for practical use of terminology.

[Lucidology]

well thanks but you are way too kind....

what i was just getting at is a really practical definition of jazz (versus jazzy). hard core traditionalists are going to say it's all about the JAZZ swing feel and then you can go the other end with a guy like krantz who is saying that the essence of jazz is innovation and interaction and improvisation. i'm not really trying to tackle that argument. but when i think of jazz chops, i mean a kind of vocabulary (harmony, melody and rhythm) that is kind of within a big broad circle that people on the bandstand would understand. like with this playing example, it's a wonder tune (genius) that i would call swung but in the crack swung, not a jazz swing feel in the least. i think my rhythmic colleagues would reinforce this distinction. and i play a LOT of bass and have since i was young, so i have to communicate with drummers on this level a LOT. it's funky but swung. so it's R&B basically. and that's just the rhythmic aspect. if i were sitting on one of the crap stages i sit on a lot i would expect a bandleader counting off some tune i'd never heard of to say 'swung but in the cracks.' not 'jazz'. and i get my share of gigs, especially lately, when someone is counting off a tune and i'm scrambling to find the chart in the book and the chart is a total piece of crap and dog eared and the leader says 'calypso' or some such thing and i just have to know what that person means. so when i think of 'jazz chops' i just feel it's not really jazz chops he's showing. he's just showing some (admittedly good) chops specific to realizing that tune by himself on a guitar at a convention. :)

to elucidate: if you went up to carl verheyen or any 'well rounded' player and said, show me your jazz chops (versus say his country chops), you'd hear this obvious expression of the forefathers of jazz guitar (or whatever instrument). you'd hear joe pass et al in there. you don't hear that in this clip...i don't think in the least.

hilarious story to further make the point (well you had to be there): had a charity event gig with some big time movie stars and stuff and the band director at one point just looked at us and said 'play jazz'. now it was AWFUL and pointed out how incompetent that particular direction was, but everyone settled into something identifiably 'straight ahead.' the key center was in question :) , but it WAS jazz. real swing feel. walking bass line. jazz chord voicings (govan is playing R&B & campfire chords in a lot of places that, well, just aren't THAT jazzy). etc. and i guess i would say people were using their 'jazz chops'.

(ps the rhythmic discussion here is fresh to me because i just went thru this in my top 40 band, as we added "i wish" to our repertoire about 2 weeks ago...ironically enough...and as the musical director, i have to be on my game in terms of the language i use to correct anyone's musical approach.)

so no big philosophical deal here. and i don't pretend to be a pedagogue or superior in this matter, but it's just maybe good to get centered in the right place for practical use of terminology.

WOW .. wonderfully informative post Andrew ...
Thanks so much ...
Just LUV hearing stories from pros entranched deeply in the ditches of the music world such as yourself...
Hope if anything, this leads other folk to checking out your playing ..

& though we all dig Guthrie to the max...
This whole thread has lend to this very cool discussion ...

(and to this, I most humbly concede ....)

Maybe others will join in ...

[johnston]

I'll give him another listen.He seems like he does everything well.

his debut album 'erotic cakes' is definitely worth a listen or two. generally, i'm not a fan of shred and hyper technical style of playing at all, but guthrie's got a lot more going for him than just flashy technique.

[johnston]

WOW .. wonderfully informative post Andrew ...
Thanks so much ...
Just LUV hearing stories from pros entranched deeply in the ditches of the music world such as yourself...
Hope if anything, this leads other folk to checking out your playing ..

& though we all dig Guthrie to the max...
This whole thread has lend to this very cool discussion ...

(and to this, I most humbly concede ....)

Maybe others will join in ...

agreed. that was informative. i don't think guthrie regards himself a jazz player although he seems to dig the "spirit" of it, if you will. as for this clip, it's just him noodling at some trade show. but i did read that he was into joe pass by his early teens.

[johnston]

jazz, blues, rock whatever. its sounds great and I cant wait to get a Surh Guthrie signiture. has anyone heard of what the specs might be?

saw this thread over at the suhr forum last week.

http://www.online-discussion.com/Suhr/viewtopic.php?t=3080

personally, i'm into landau and would be game for the shell pink classic that he's been playing lately. i'm too much of an old fart for a 24-fret shred axe now, but that gg model seems like it'd be a very versatile guitar.

[NAV1147]

ill ask Carl Verheyen on sat to show me his jazz chops. Im having dinner w him and hes playing at tone merchants:)

[heavypick]

It's great stuff but not really "jazz," not that that really matters. Pretty much if you put yourself up there against Guthrie you're gonna have a hard time, whether you're playing ii-V patterns, diminished scales, Michael Brecker licks (unless you can play them as fast as Brecker) or whatever. Only a jazz audience would care that Guthrie's not doing this or that, but for the general public and for better or worse, Guthrie will most likely smoke you.

[rnm14]

well thanks but you are way too kind....

what i was just getting at is a really practical definition of jazz (versus jazzy). hard core traditionalists are going to say it's all about the JAZZ swing feel and then you can go the other end with a guy like krantz who is saying that the essence of jazz is innovation and interaction and improvisation. i'm not really trying to tackle that argument. but when i think of jazz chops, i mean a kind of vocabulary (harmony, melody and rhythm) that is kind of within a big broad circle that people on the bandstand would understand. like with this playing example, it's a wonder tune (genius) that i would call swung but in the crack swung, not a jazz swing feel in the least. i think my rhythmic colleagues would reinforce this distinction. and i play a LOT of bass and have since i was young, so i have to communicate with drummers on this level a LOT. it's funky but swung. so it's R&B basically. and that's just the rhythmic aspect. if i were sitting on one of the crap stages i sit on a lot i would expect a bandleader counting off some tune i'd never heard of to say 'swung but in the cracks.' not 'jazz'. and i get my share of gigs, especially lately, when someone is counting off a tune and i'm scrambling to find the chart in the book and the chart is a total piece of crap and dog eared and the leader says 'calypso' or some such thing and i just have to know what that person means. so when i think of 'jazz chops' i just feel it's not really jazz chops he's showing. he's just showing some (admittedly good) chops specific to realizing that tune by himself on a guitar at a convention. :)

to elucidate: if you went up to carl verheyen or any 'well rounded' player and said, show me your jazz chops (versus say his country chops), you'd hear this obvious expression of the forefathers of jazz guitar (or whatever instrument). you'd hear joe pass et al in there. you don't hear that in this clip...i don't think in the least.

hilarious story to further make the point (well you had to be there): had a charity event gig with some big time movie stars and stuff and the band director at one point just looked at us and said 'play jazz'. now it was AWFUL and pointed out how incompetent that particular direction was, but everyone settled into something identifiably 'straight ahead.' the key center was in question :) , but it WAS jazz. real swing feel. walking bass line. jazz chord voicings (govan is playing R&B & campfire chords in a lot of places that, well, just aren't THAT jazzy). etc. and i guess i would say people were using their 'jazz chops'.

(ps the rhythmic discussion here is fresh to me because i just went thru this in my top 40 band, as we added "i wish" to our repertoire about 2 weeks ago...ironically enough...and as the musical director, i have to be on my game in terms of the language i use to correct anyone's musical approach.)

so no big philosophical deal here. and i don't pretend to be a pedagogue or superior in this matter, but it's just maybe good to get centered in the right place for practical use of terminology.

Great post and exactly my thoughts on the matter, only written way better.

What caused me to post, was the title "Guthrie showing his jazz chops". I clicked on the link expecting a solo rendition of standard in the style of Joe Pass, or some really fast playing over a difficult tune, maybe even in the style of Greg Howe's Giant Steps. The link didn't meet my expectations. But Guthrie is a brilliant guitar player and I'm sure he could do the styles and tunes I mentioned easily. I just felt that the title and clip don't match.

The solo rendition of I wish done by Tuck is pretty similiar and that's where it fell a bit short for me on the originality issue. Again there's no doubt in my mind that he could come up with something like that. In the end it is what it is, a very gifted player noodling at some trade show.

[Gas-man]

ill ask Carl Verheyen on sat to show me his jazz chops. Im having dinner w him and hes playing at tone merchants:)

Dude, don't forget to pick up that name you just dropped.


:D

[Sid]

Hey guys I stumbled on this on another forum. Guthrie sure makes it look easy. I heard through the rumor mill that the Suhr Guthrie Govan signiture will revealed at this coming NAMM. I know Im saving for one. Im really curious what the specs will be. Has anyone heard anything?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EcqF9sJiO8

I've played on Guthrie's actual suhr right before a gig of his....absolutely awesome guitar...best guitar ive played on yet.....

[Sid]

Great post and exactly my thoughts on the matter, only written way better.

What caused me to post, was the title "Guthrie showing his jazz chops". I clicked on the link expecting a solo rendition of standard in the style of Joe Pass, or some really fast playing over a difficult tune, maybe even in the style of Greg Howe's Giant Steps. The link didn't meet my expectations. But Guthrie is a brilliant guitar player and I'm sure he could do the styles and tunes I mentioned easily. I just felt that the title and clip don't match.

The solo rendition of I wish done by Tuck is pretty similiar and that's where it fell a bit short for me on the originality issue. Again there's no doubt in my mind that he could come up with something like that. In the end it is what it is, a very gifted player noodling at some trade show.

One man's jazz....:D

Guthrie is one of my alltime favourite guitar player....its true that his skill set is one of the best in the business right now...which is kind of part of his style...the more i hear of him...the more i can recognise his style...his album erotic cakes is an instrumental rock masterpiece....

For all those of you just getting into guthrie...he performs every week with his other band...The Fellowship..links below...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN2HqXxQNSI

quite a few links in the related videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oE5yMTCbsC0&feature=related

I dont know whether this qualifies as jazz or not...but i think the best thing i find abt guthrie is his command over various styles and techniques and his ability to use them in every situation....:bow

[johnston]

for a guy mainly known for rock and shred kinds of stuff in the g3 vai/satch/yngwie/petrucci vein, his jazz chops are really good. i don't think anyone will really mistake him for metheny or rosenwinkel or kessel, etc. his country chops are amazing too, but that doesn't mean he's albert lee or brent mason. but for sheer versatility and being so good at so many different things, i just can't think of anyone who even compares.

[cugel]

He has a strong "skill set".

as good a set as any on the planet i would venture

[Kalalau Hiker]

WHAT .. what wasn't Jazzy about that ....???

He's having fun with that and plays a lot of really hip stuff ...
Just take it as it is ...

No comparison to Tuck or whomever please ...
Tuck is a, it not the, major player in the solo world..jazz or whatever ..
(not fair to compare ...)

Guthrie is having some slick fun with a classic tune, imposing bass lines & such ...
Listen again, there's some nice chordal work in there ...
And his time is totally on ... now if that ain't jazzy ....

Toward's the end he starts playing some turn around and stuff that's obviously
not part of the I Wish tune ...
And he's playing some swinging stuff ...

IN all due respect, what would someone need to hear if one were to "detect jazz"..

I guess I'll have to agree w ya Jose... it SOUNDS kinda like jazz.

but isn't the more pertinent issue here that REAL jazz players just don't have hair like that?

Really ...aren't TRUE jazz players (Joe Pass, Jim Hall) all bald? and wear cardigan sweaters?

Remember when Barney Kessell went hippie on us and grew his hair long in the 70's? That's when his jazz career ended right there!

:rolleyes:

SERIOUSLY ......Guthrie is WAY to sexy lookin to play real jazz. and Greg Howe's overalls w no shirt - showing off his toned torso.... that excludes him too!

jeez... what do you think Wynton would say about all this! :bkw

;)

[rnm14]

Actually the hair isn't the problem here, but did you see the instrument he was playing? You call that a guitar? Where are the F-holes and the flatwounds? Where's the treble knob turned to 0? :Devil

Seriously, if we keep the musical style terminology alive it ought to be binding? Or else we just call everything music and avoid the pitfalls any categorisation brings a long.

To get my point across one last time: Do I think Guthrie is talented and that Stevie Wonder's I wish is great Music? Of course! Do I think it's jazz? No.

[BIGGERSTAFF]

for a guy mainly known for rock and shred kinds of stuff in the g3 vai/satch/yngwie/petrucci vein, his jazz chops are really good. i don't think anyone will really mistake him for metheny or rosenwinkel or kessel, etc. his country chops are amazing too, but that doesn't mean he's albert lee or brent mason. but for sheer versatility and being so good at so many different things, i just can't think of anyone who even compares.

Steve Morse and Jimmy Herring?

[MrMike]

Or Alex Skolnick?