How do you get that "Big Sound" live...

[blownirocz]

I know, I know...some will say it's all subjective. But I actually believe this is less subjective, and more measurable than say...the argument for "the perfect tone". Anyhow, here goes...

After many years of searching, I've finally found a tone that I'm very happy with (for now, at least).

(For those interested, it's an LP Standard and LP Classic, through various boutique pedals (inline), into a Demeter TGA-3 75W tube head, and finally a Mesa 4x12 cab with V30's (I'm posting a separate thread asking for opinions on the V30/Greenback X-pattern combination)).

Since finding a tone I like, I've been listening more to my overall sound at the last few live gigs, and it just doesn't seem "big" enough. I can get it plenty loud (sometimes to the chagrin of the sound engineer), but it just doesn't envelop you, the way I feel it should.

What are some tricks or products you guys use to get that elusive "huge sound"? Stereo amp? Running particular effects in the loop? Some other nifty new product that I'm unaware of?

Thanks in advance guys!

[jtm622]

I use a LP standard thru a Marshall 50-watt thru a Marshall 1936 2x12, and that gets me a really good lead tone at moderate volume levels... but if you're talking about playing "rhythm" - I just stomp on a "rotary speaker" simulator ... That will get one a "big sound" in a hurry...

[studiodunn]

stereo rigs!

[Solomon]

11!

[Lance]

Hmm, if a 75W Demeter into a 4 x 12 cab isn't large enough, I have no idea what could get a bigger sound, besides another 4 x 12 cab. Maybe a pedal with a fat boost? I run a 2 x 12 stereo rig, and it sounds pretty huge, but still not as large (seemingly) as a 4 x 12 cab with almsot anything pushing it. Really! I plugged a little Epiphone Valve Jr. into a 1960A cab, and it was pretty darn impressive for 5 watts.

[seiko]

I know, I know...some will say it's all subjective. But I actually believe this is less subjective, and more measurable than say...the argument for "the perfect tone". Anyhow, here goes...

After many years of searching, I've finally found a tone that I'm very happy with (for now, at least).

(For those interested, it's an LP Standard and LP Classic, through various boutique pedals (inline), into a Demeter TGA-3 75W tube head, and finally a Mesa 4x12 cab with V30's (I'm posting a separate thread asking for opinions on the V30/Greenback X-pattern combination)).

Since finding a tone I like, I've been listening more to my overall sound at the last few live gigs, and it just doesn't seem "big" enough. I can get it plenty loud (sometimes to the chagrin of the sound engineer), but it just doesn't envelop you, the way I feel it should.

What are some tricks or products you guys use to get that elusive "huge sound"? Stereo amp? Running particular effects in the loop? Some other nifty new product that I'm unaware of?

Thanks in advance guys!

Are you listening from the stage or from where the audience will be?

Seems like you should be able to get a big sound from that rig. Maybe you're clashing with bass and drum frequiences in the quest for bigness and need to re-EQ?

[shane88]

it's more to do with the total EQ of the band than gear .... ie u can sound big with a strat and a pro junior..........

[blownirocz]

stereo rigs!
I run a 2 x 12 stereo rig, and it sounds pretty huge...

So I'm a pretty technically savvy person, and I've been reading a lot about stereo rigs for "big" sound, and have even experimented with two TGA-3 heads going into my stereo capable 4x12 cab (through a stereo CE-1). But I'm just not sure I get it. Granted, I didn't test it at gig volumes or through a PA, but can someone take a shot at explaining to me in their own words why this is supposed to sound bigger, and what I should expect?

Are you listening from the stage or from where the audience will be?

Seems like you should be able to get a big sound from that rig. Maybe you're clashing with bass and drum frequiences in the quest for bigness and need to re-EQ?

I was listening from the audience perspective (I have a long chord...and I don't mean that metaphorically :o) and I was out in the audience area for a bit during one of our better songs. But that's an interesting point. There could certainly be some frequency contention there. How/Where would you suggest I start in the re-EQ'ing process?

[schaljo]

lower wattage amp driven harder.

[Quantumphysics]

"that big sound" where? meaning all around the venue - in the sweet spot - from the floor/in ear monitors -

no matter what you're gonna have to have two mics on the amp/cab and run it through the house - you could use a 57RI strat and a blues jr - if it's miked right it will be big!!!!!!!!!!

[siore]

Add another amp to your rig. Somthing to complement your freqs.

[enocaster]

How about 2 smaller cabinets a few feet apart?

[Crikey]

Could be your speaker cabinet? Different 4x12s sound different, even with the same make and model speaker loaded. I heard a Bogner 4x12 with Vintage 30s a while back that I should have bought -- it sounded huge.

That said, try Greenbacks instead of Vintage 30s if you can use them safely (they handle much less power). Or Scumbacks. These sound "thicker" to me than Vintage 30s.

Final point: I think sometimes guitar players try to get too "big" a sound. A lot of modern amps (including some nice boutique ones) sound "big" by having strong lows and low-mids. You have drums and bass in your band's mix (presumably), so maybe it's okay for you to occupy a narrower band of sound frequencies rather than add more potential boominess to the overall mix. I've heard some amps I "loved" by themselves sort of disappear into the mix in a band situation.

Good luck!


Crikey

[rob2001]

lower wattage amp driven harder.

And mic'd up as Quantum said.

[epluribus]

Big sound in my book has to do with how well-distributed the sound field is. IMHO, the idea is for every seat in the house to sound like the best possible seat. That means tons of definition and detail, and the freq response behavior of the amp sounding just as clear in the back corner as it does up close.

Two amps will spread the sound field more, PA even better. Interestingly, once you get the sound "big," you don't need it to be very "loud." The band will sound huge and cranked, but the ear comfort will be vastly improved. And depending on the venue, sometimes all that takes is a second amp and a little placement strategy.

--Ray

[nuthinew]

a stereo rig with a combination of a closed back and an open back cab really helped me finally get that enveloping sound. I had a stereo power amp anyway and had to have 2 cabs but I didn't realize what an affect the open back cab would have on my sound. I played an outdoor gig with it and 2 1x12 closed back speakers and the soundman didn't even bother to turn the stage mic on to run to the PA. He said it was perfect and didn't need any more support.

[John Bell]

Take your favorite amp and slave it into a big ass tube power amp such as the VHT or Boogie.Then run out of those into a couple of 4x12s.

[michael.e]

lower wattage amp driven harder.

All he is going to end up with is a compressed tone. Smaller amp is not the answer.


I think it is the amp, here is why.....

I have used the following heads with my band:
Reinhardt JTM45
D/13 FTR
D/13 RSA
Blonde Bassman
'70 Marshall Super PA
'72 Marshall JTM 50
'73 Hiwatt DR504
Mesa-Boogie Tremoverb
Mesa-Boogie Heartbreaker
Soldano SLO
Gabriel Voxer

I think that is all..
All very fine sounding amps. My top two for tone and that "BIG" feel/presence??
SLO and '73 Hiwatt
The Hiwatt is absolutely perfect in terms of both of the qualities I look for most in a gigging rig. Paired with my '72 Hiwatt cab w/orig. Fanes, I am looking no longer.

Now, the SLO....
I ran it with my old Marshall cab with original '72 Greenies. HUGE@@@@###@@!!!!!! I was overpowering the bassist when I was muting chords and letting them ring out as well [the ringing chords is where the Hiwatt has the SLO beat in spades]. And it was not due to volume, it was in presence. The sonic footprint is unmatched by any of the other amps that I have owned.
Those two amps were/are my bands favorite.

[Lucidology]

Well no one asked me ... but here's what I do ..

I take my tube amp and mic it through a Bose L1 system
which spreads the amps beamed signal out a 180 to 200 degrees ....

Some sound man hate me ... others luv it that I make their job easier ...

[michael.e]

Well no one asked me ... but here's what I do ..

I take my tube amp and mic it through a Bose L1 system
which spreads the amps beamed signal out a 180 to 200 degrees ....

Some sound man hate me ... others luv it that I make their job easier ...

Ola brother Joseph!

Question, how well does your rig handle overdriven/crunchy tones?

[Tone_Terrific]

This is not the ultimate in pro advice but "Bigness' is not always 'Betterness,' imo.
The whole band has to be balanced for better.

Further, a big fat rhythm tone leaves you nowhere to go when you move to single note leads. Balance again.

[mdog114]

You could put a time-based effect in the loop with some slight detuning and a real short delay. That would certainly thicken-up your sauce.

[michael.e]

This is not the ultimate in pro advice but "Bigness' is not always 'Betterness,' imo.
The whole band has to be balanced for better.

Further, a big fat rhythm tone leaves you nowhere to go when you move to single note leads. Balance again.

Balanced in what? Volume? I don't think he is talking about volume issues though.

[Lucidology]

Ola brother Joseph!

Question, how well does your rig handle overdriven/crunchy tones?

The Bose L1 simply duplicates your sound exactly like it is.. regardless...
You can even further eq it if you wish ...

Plus I use a Sennheiser 609 guitar mic which is excellent for guitar frequencies ...

[dk123123dk]

Here are a few options.

Wet/Dry rig. This allows your core tone to come through at all times. The time based effects go into a clean amp. Some pedals have dual outputs with a mix knob. So you can send the effected signal to just one amp, and the dry to another. You could also use a high quality aby switch. That way you can switch between a clean and dirty amp, or turn on a few pedals, and have a wet/dry setup. Very cool.

Another option is just a dual mono setup. This can be done with certain pedals as well. You set the wet signal to both outputs. Ping pong delay works cool this way.

I think you should try again with some gear that you may have already. Or just grab a used solid state combo amp with decent cleans to use for the effects. Keep your tube rig for your dry tones.

I find the way you spread the amps, is key. Also the eq of each amp is interesting. I have tried rigs with the same two amps with identical settings. And also rigs with different amps and/or different eq settings. I also tried two of the same amp, but with different speaker cabs. The potential is unlimited.

So in summary, I would look for a delay with dual mono outputs. You don't need to set up an obvious delay sound, just a really super short setting. You will notice the sound is almost twice as "big" as it was before. It really is amazing to witness for the first time! I once sold a delay pedal to an older guy on craigslist. I showed him this feature when demoing the pedal, and he went from semi interested in buying, to jaw dropped open!

Good luck, it makes things certainly more complicated when it comes to micing amps, and rig placement, and carrying more cabs/heads around. Plus the amount of cables that you needs basically doubles! But when done right, it really is amazing. Thats why I think Page gets such a HUGE live tone.


dk

[voodoosound]

You could put a time-based effect in the loop with some slight detuning and a real short delay. That would certainly thicken-up your sauce.

The most simple and easiest to try. I recommend this as well. Next I would try running a good compressor such as a DBX 160. If a compressor is used right you can be playing a battery powered amp and it will sound like a wall of marshalls.

[ant_riv]

+1 on the stereo set-up using a short delay to split the signal.

Dry signal into the main amp will give you your "tone" and the delay into a clean amp to give you "big". Place them a few feet apart. The delay can be a short slapback, or a longer echo. "Bigger" sound would actually come from a shorter delay.

Or, two identical set-ups with a stereo chorus pedal to split the signal.

There are really many different ways to get "big" sound, and a lot of good suggestions here.

Let us know what you decide and how it works out.

[michael.e]

It also really depends on the music. For some types, a wet/stereo/multi cab rig is just not appropriate.

[Xabiche]

"that big sound" where? meaning all around the venue - in the sweet spot - from the floor/in ear monitors -

no matter what you're gonna have to have two mics on the amp/cab and run it through the house - you could use a 57RI strat and a blues jr - if it's miked right it will be big!!!!!!!!!!

So, would it be best to use your own mics into your own mixer and feed the house with a simple stereo line level mix? You'd be in control then, eh?

[stratocat63]

I find the the more I hear from the PA the bigger it feels. If my stage volume is too loud, the PA gets less and it sounds smaller and directional.

[franksguitar]

Most good guitar players can get a great sound from a decent tube amp, knowing how to eq it and get the best sound out of your axe and the rest is in you fingers and technique. Yes stereo w/2 amps is cool and splits (I've done that since the 60's) and tons of either stomp or rack effects and stuff, but it all boils down to when a good guitarist can sound good through anything and still be recognizable.

[michael.e]

Most good guitar players can get a great sound from a decent tube amp, knowing how to eq it and get the best sound out of your axe and the rest is in you fingers and technique. Yes stereo w/2 amps is cool and splits (I've done that since the 60's) and tons of either stomp or rack effects and stuff, but it all boils down to when a good guitarist can sound good through anything and still be recognizable.

OP is not talking about sounding good v. not sounding good or being a good enough guitar player to sound good through any amp/being recognizable. He is talking about a bigger, beefier soundfield. A larger sonic footprint. You can EQ a Deluxe reverb to death, it still is not going to sound huge. It will sound nice, just not huge.

[tedzepplin]

I play a Juke 1210 - it has one 12" and two 10" speakers. and I also run an extension cab on the other side of the stage. this cab has one 15" speaker. The amp has a big sounding mid 60s ampeg style reverb and tremolo and vibrato, plus I use a delay pedal. Since the sound is spread out in different directions from the two cabs, I can get a bigger sound at a lower volume. I think the different speaker sizes might help to cover a wider range of frequencies.

[tjmicsak]

Stereo rig with a cross delay of about 50-100 ms. Add modulation to sweeten up a bit if you like. Simple stomp would be a Boss digital demension run out to seperate amps or in the effect loop going to a second amp return and cab. Stage presence would be good if the amps were on both wings, but if FOH is what you want just double mike a split stereo cab and send to pan left/right. This last option would be better as depending on the venue you could pan different % from center on each so the sound "field" remains balanced.

[blownirocz]

I knew I'd get some great and thoughtful responses here...and as usual, my TGP brethren did not disappoint. Thanks so much for all the discussion and great ideas guys, really.

I'm going to do some experimentation with a stereo setup, and putting some cross delay in various places in the chain and in the loop (if anyone has a VHT 2502 that they're looking to move for a decent price, shoot me a PM).

Lucid...thanks for turning me on to the L1. Had never even heard of it before you mentioned it, but looks like some really interesting technology that I'm going to investigate further.

Michael.e, as usual we're exactly on the same page brother. Sure wish I was in a position to snatch up the Hiwatt when you had it for sale.

I'll definitely post any interesting results that come out of my experimentation...

[splatt]

a coupla more ideas:
1) play "big".
2) wet/dry rig certainly can give more width/depth to the sound.
3) play "big".
4) push the Master harder on the Demeter; back off the pre-amp gain, a bit.
in this scenarion, one might use a HotPlate, lightly,
to equalise the volume. (the HP line-out can be used to feed the "wet" rig, as well:
another kind of re-amping, there).
5) PLAY BIG!

dt / spltrcl

[m@2]

IME, the sound guy, and the room itself have the biggest impacts as to how huge our sound is... beyond that, open back cabs can help spread out the sound (especially if you have a "beamy" cab). It may help to add a touch of reverb (or slapback echo) on guitar (but this also depends on the room)