not an amp..but related..mic>>recording

[rkstarr]

which would you get preamp wise///tridents20 or Ua2801..
gt has a greatdeal on s20...999

[Scott Peterson]

Moved to the proper section.

[rkstarr]

:)

[LSchefman]

What are you planning on recording?

For electric guitars, which have a very limited bandwidth, it is my contention that you don't need a fancy preamp, an ordinary one will do just fine.

I say this as a person who owns some very fancy preamps. Any difference in sound I get with one as opposed to my less fancy preamps on electric guitar cabs is truly microscopic, and I wouldn't pay extra for it.

For acoustic guitar and vocals, perhaps a different story, but even then, you have to have good mics to have the preamp make a difference.

The transducer is the most important thing, not the electronics.

[MichaelK]

Haven't heard either unit specifically, but I like the sound of Trident desks a lot.

That said, Les is right. You might not need either one. But if it's a great deal... ??

[rkstarr]

into a fostex vf160..have sm57..used speak ems..they are mediocre..used mixer...better..but still cruddy..so mic pre..the music is strait up classic rock...cabs are 4x12 with gb's
amp is peacemaker..or preamp power amp..loud!!!!!

[rkstarr]

issue...>thanks

[MichaelK]

Not to be a pain, with all those elipses it's too much work trying to figure out your signal path. I don't know if you're using an amp or going direct or what. Can you try using sentences?

[rkstarr]

les paul..into peacemaker..to hotplate.speaker..speaker miked sm57..to yorkville mixer..vf160..unbalanced inputs

[MichaelK]

OK, close enough to a sentence.

My guess would be that if your results are that unsatisfying, the main problem may be your miking technique.

A different preamp might make some difference - I won't say it would be money wasted. I dunno who "gt" is, but you could probably spend lot less on a RNP (http://www.fmraudio.com/) and be just as happy.

[aeolian]

What's wrong with an RNP? Haven't compared them to thousand dollar preamps, but from what I'm told, you have to get pretty esoteric to be noticeably better.

[rkstarr]

i am tired of fooling myself into thinking something sounds good..
many have said a solid mic pre will really enable truer sound recording..not just mike positioning..i think the limits of the vf160 recorder are a possibility..but it seem to put out what you put into it..so if my great amp sounds are not being delivered to it well..then its spits out cruddy recording...

[MichaelK]

Originally posted by aeolian
What's wrong with an RNP?
:confused:

You'd have to ask whoever said it! :cool:

[MichaelK]

Seriously rkstar, sentences would help. I have no idea what you just said.

[rkstarr]

my vf160 recorder does not record distorted guitar very well,which i feel is due to my inabiltity to send it a qulity sounding signal..i use a sm57 predominantly..into a mixer an then the vf160..i have tried running straight into the vf160 .but thats worse..
therefor ive been looking at good mic pre's..and the two that im down 2 are
trident s20..and universal audio 2108..will i get much better results?
note i have a separate compressor/and effects module(for reverb/delay)

[LSchefman]

>>and where in the chain..is this transducer

issue...>thanks<<

A mic or a speaker is a transducer.

It's the most important part of the signal chain, because a transducer either translates soundwaves into an electronic signal, or translates an electronic signal into soundwaves.

I have 15 years of professional experience recording guitar cabinets.

It has been my experience that when recording a guitar cabinet into a dynamic mic like a 57, a high end preamp makes very little difference, even with 24/96 professional gear. It's my gut feeling that unless your console's mic preamps are complete crap, which is possible, you're not going to gain much with fancy mic preamps for this application.

There is no question in my mind, however, that most high end preamps will be totally wrong for your situation, because your Fostex's inputs will not handle +4dbM pro level line signals. Here's Pro Audio Review's test result:

>>>The eight analog inputs can take anything from mic level to -10 dbv "consumer" line level, but even with their trim pots turned all the way down, overload when presented with +4dbM "pro" level sources.<<<

This means that you should look at mic preamps with "consumer" level -10 outputs, or you will have to buy a "+4 to -10" converter, such as the Aphex or Henry Matchbox, for around $200-300. Or, you could buy something like an external Mackie mixer, which has very nice mic preamps, and run it's outputs into your fostex, because the Mackie will do either -10 or +4.

By the way, the Fostex got a very good review from PAR for pop type recording, which would mean, guitar amps.

My guess is that if you're not getting a good sound with your rig, your microphone technique is the culprit. Remember that a Shure 57 will give you the classic sounds of rock guitar, it's the mic that's been used on thousands of classic and recent records, but those sounds are not exactly "hi fi". If you want to capture "hi fi" guitar sounds, you need a different mic.

[Hard2Hear]

You said it sounds good going in but not coming out.

That's a pretty inportant observation to make. My professional opinion would be to work on your monitoring system first. How are you monitoring? Headphones? If you have a good monitoring system, you can use technique and positioning to achieve the sound you want with nearly any decent mic/pre setup. The key is you have to REALLY hear what is going in and then it will match what comes ou tin the end.

-Mike

[MichaelK]

>> This means that you should look at mic preamps with "consumer" level -10 outputs, or you will have to buy a "+4 to -10" converter, such as the Aphex or Henry Matchbox, for around $200-300. Or, you could buy something like an external Mackie mixer, which has very nice mic preamps, and run it's outputs into your fostex, because the Mackie will do either -10 or +4.

This is very good advice.

Suggest you look into a small Mackie mixer, either the latest models or the VLZ-Pro series. Their preamps are surprisingly good and you could output at the -10 level you need.

But nail that mic technique! Check out this thread (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46258).

[loudboy]

Take the grand and put it into a Royer R-121 mic.

Thank me later.

If you can't get a great sound with that, it's not the recording gear...

Loudboy

[rkstarr]

and Rawk on....and record..:cool:

[rkstarr]

rock..through greenbacks..i play loud ..and hopefully agressively..:dude

[loudboy]

Originally posted by rkstarr
rock..through greenbacks..i play loud ..and hopefully agressively..:dude

It needs a windscreen for close miking, but it does about the best job of capturing clean to classic rock crunch tones that I've heard yet. If it's coming out of the amp, it'll go right to tape.

In general, I'll take the correct mic over any other part of the recording chain. It may be an SM57, it may be a Schoeps, but IMHO, it's the most important part of the chain.

Loudboy

[rkstarr]

model a re 1500:eek: :eek:

[Sparticus]

A good pre is almost always more important than a good mic IMO. The most important part (if your going digital) is the converter. You could have a 3000+ plus Manley pre and get awful sound if your converters aren't good. It's also cheaper, at least at first, than dishing out over a thousand for a good pre to get a decent set of converters.

[Bryan T]

Originally posted by Sparticus
A good pre is almost always more important than a good mic IMO. The most important part (if your going digital) is the converter. You could have a 3000+ plus Manley pre and get awful sound if your converters aren't good. It's also cheaper, at least at first, than dishing out over a thousand for a good pre to get a decent set of converters.

I love these type of debates. What I have concluded is that everything in the chain has to be pretty good (note that I don't say pretty expensive).

Les prefers a good quality mic, others prefer great pres. I have a decent pre (Focusrite platinum series) and decent mics (A/T, Groove Tubes, Shure) and get sounds that I think are near-professional.

Spending a lot of time with micing and placement of the amp in the room is time well spent.

Honestly, if he can't get a decent sound with an SM-57, then something is wrong with his approach. I don't think dropping a grand on a new microphone, preamp, or A/D converter will solve the issues.

Bryan

[MichaelK]

Originally posted by Sparticus
A good pre is almost always more important than a good mic IMO. The most important part (if your going digital) is the converter.
You really think a new preamp and converter will solve his problem?

[LSchefman]

>>A good pre is almost always more important than a good mic IMO.<<

This is so absurd that it's entertaining. :rolleyes:

[GaryNattrass]

One note for discussion here is what EVH has said in his latest interview in Guitarist you need to take the G off GEAR and use only your EAR!

If the tone from your guitar cab sucks then the best pre-amp mic combination in the world will still give you a tone that sucks.

Use your ears and really listen to the tone you are getting in the first place a pre amp and mic combination will do very little to colour a basic tone source especially these days where the quality of semi-pro gear is SO good.

Most classic guitar tones from years gone by did not involve very much messing around with pre amps and mic placement, normally the studio cost lots of bucks so time was of the essence. Besides in a studio the mic signal would go through miles of low quality cable to get to the desk.

Only my ten penneth but if your basic tone is good it dont matter jack shit what pre-amp and mic combo is being used and you will only notice a difference if you do an A/B comparison.

[GaryNattrass]

P.S. Eddie Van H also says that Pro Tools sucks the life out of recordings!!!!

Must admit having lived for it for a few months now I agree, it is great for lots of digital convenience but I just cant get the drum sound I used to with my Allen and Heath analogue desk.

[LSchefman]

>>Only my ten penneth but if your basic tone is good it dont matter jack shit what pre-amp and mic combo is being used and you will only notice a difference if you do an A/B comparison<<

Exactamundo.

BTW, I knew Jack Shit pretty well back in the day, and he said the same thing. ;)

[LSchefman]

>>I just cant get the drum sound I used to with my Allen and Heath analogue desk<<

I use an analog mixer with Digital Performer, and it STILL doesn't sound as good as tape to my ear.

I not only love the sound of analog tape, I love the smell of a hot tape machine with a pair of fat reels going 'round and 'round. I like autolocators, synchronizers, dolby SR, and analog meters.

I even liked cleaning the heads on mine. Fun little chore. There aren't as many fun little chores on digital. You back up, and that's it. No puttering around, really.

Sadly enough.

[Bassomatic]

Originally posted by LSchefman
>>I just cant get the drum sound I used to with my Allen and Heath analogue desk<<

I use an analog mixer with Digital Performer, and it STILL doesn't sound as good as tape to my ear.

I not only love the sound of analog tape, I love the smell of a hot tape machine with a pair of fat reels going 'round and 'round. I like autolocators, synchronizers, dolby SR, and analog meters.

I even liked cleaning the heads on mine. Fun little chore. There aren't as many fun little chores on digital. You back up, and that's it. No puttering around, really.

Sadly enough.

I miss the smell, but NOT demagging, inadvertently running off the reels, calibrating, etc.

[GaryNattrass]

At least Jack Shit is a nice guy I tend to talk the Bull version most of the time!:D

[MichaelK]

Originally posted by Bassomatic
I miss the smell, but NOT demagging, inadvertently running off the reels, calibrating, etc.
You got that right. Nor the cost of tape, editing with a razor blade, storage, etc.

I'm OK without the smell. Besides, you get the right A/D and you don't miss much else for long.

[MichaelK]

Originally posted by GaryNattrass
At least Jack Shit is a nice guy I tend to talk the Bull version most of the time!:D
Jack and Bull seem to be inseparable these days.

[LSchefman]

>>I miss the smell, but NOT demagging, inadvertently running off the reels, calibrating, etc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

You got that right. Nor the cost of tape, editing with a razor blade, storage, etc.

I'm OK without the smell. Besides, you get the right A/D and you don't miss much else for long.<<

I even liked all that stuff. And with 30 second ad tracks, it was REALLY not gonna be me who ran out of reel...;)

'Course, now that I'm a "big time" entertainment lawyer again :rolleyes: , I won't have to mess with anything digital in the studio unless I want to. Hmmmm...maybe I'll buy that 24 track my friend wants to get rid of...