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View Full Version : The Cheaper Marshall 4-12's?


zombiwoof
11-25-2008, 04:46 AM
What's the difference besides the cheaper speakers between the Marshall MG and MC series 4-12 cabs and the classic 1960 cabs? Different wood? Are they the same size? Are they made in Asia or something?

They're half the price of the 1960's, and I've always wondered if they're any good.

Al

SatelliteAmps
11-25-2008, 06:58 AM
The MG and MC are made of MDF (aka particle board). The 1960 cabinets are made of baltic birch plywood. Huge difference in tone, and in quality. The 1960 cabs are worth the extra money.

I also think the MG's are a tad smaller than the 1960 cab.

Eagle1
11-25-2008, 10:05 AM
MDF is not particle board, it is medium density fiberboard and more like thick hardboard but you defiantly right about the 1960s being worth the extra ,(although these have particle board backs on all but the HW series since 1973.

908SSP
11-25-2008, 11:53 AM
Sorry MDF, particle board, medium density flux capcitor... it is all junk. The 1960 cabs JCM800 and older are worth the extra money.

SatelliteAmps
11-25-2008, 02:53 PM
MDF is not particle board, it is medium density fiberboard and more like thick hardboard but you defiantly right about the 1960s being worth the extra ,(although these have particle board backs on all but the HW series since 1973.

My point wasn't to differentiate between them, but to add that people refer to the MG & MC cabs as particle board.

To be exact, particle board is a type of MDF, but usually with larger pieces, more loosely packed. Both suck for tone cabinets.

Chuck King
11-25-2008, 04:51 PM
The differences in cabinet material pale in comparison to the differences in speakers. The cheaper cabinets do NOT have Celestion G12T-75s in them. I opened up one of those lower-line Marshall cabinets once, and the speakers did have "Celestion" stickers on their little bitty magnets, but they were not the kind of Celestions anyone thinks of when they hear that name.

If you can get to a Guitar Center or some such place, it probably would not be too much work to side-by-side one of the cheaper cabinets and a 1960.

Eagle1
11-26-2008, 03:43 AM
My point wasn't to differentiate between them, but to add that people refer to the MG & MC cabs as particle board.

To be exact, particle board is a type of MDF, but usually with larger pieces, more loosely packed. Both suck for tone cabinets.
MDF and Particle board are not the same ,and MDF is used in Hi Fi speakers ,even some high end ones.
Differentiating between the construction will help with your choice ,won't it?

zombiwoof
11-26-2008, 04:52 AM
Thanks to all for the info, I suspected they weren't ply, cheap speakers couldn't explain the huge price difference.

Funny thing, back in the eighties, I knew a guy who was a metal guitar player who claimed that he and many of his fellow metal buddies preferred 4-12 cabs made out of comp material, thought they sounded better for his type of music. I had never heard of that before.

Al

Eagle1
11-26-2008, 06:39 AM
Thanks to all for the info, I suspected they weren't ply, cheap speakers couldn't explain the huge price difference.

Funny thing, back in the eighties, I knew a guy who was a metal guitar player who claimed that he and many of his fellow metal buddies preferred 4-12 cabs made out of comp material, thought they sounded better for his type of music. I had never heard of that before.

Al
All those JCM800 cabs have particle board backs.

SatelliteAmps
11-26-2008, 07:03 AM
MDF and Particle board are not the same ,and MDF is used in Hi Fi speakers ,even some high end ones.
Differentiating between the construction will help with your choice ,won't it?

MDF and Particle Board are similar, and even related, as already stated. Also explained how they were different. Didn't claim they were the same.

Both are used in both hi-fi and guitar and bass amplifier products.

Marshall started using particle board backs in the 1970s, prior to the JCM800 range.

SatelliteAmps
11-26-2008, 07:06 AM
The differences in cabinet material pale in comparison to the differences in speakers. The cheaper cabinets do NOT have Celestion G12T-75s in them. I opened up one of those lower-line Marshall cabinets once, and the speakers did have "Celestion" stickers on their little bitty magnets, but they were not the kind of Celestions anyone thinks of when they hear that name.

If you can get to a Guitar Center or some such place, it probably would not be too much work to side-by-side one of the cheaper cabinets and a 1960.

1960 cab's come with a huge variety of speakers. A lot of the great ones don't have G12T-75s either. A lot have G12-65's, G12H-30s, G12M-25s, etc. G12T-75s are only one of many possibilities. A very few of the MG cab's came with Vintage 30s, but most do have cheaper speakers in them.

sliberty
11-26-2008, 07:57 AM
On the other hand, I wouldn't touch a cab with GT12-75's in it either. I hate those mid-scooped tones. I much prefer V30, Greenbacks, G12H-30's, and even CL-80's.



The differences in cabinet material pale in comparison to the differences in speakers. The cheaper cabinets do NOT have Celestion G12T-75s in them. I opened up one of those lower-line Marshall cabinets once, and the speakers did have "Celestion" stickers on their little bitty magnets, but they were not the kind of Celestions anyone thinks of when they hear that name.

If you can get to a Guitar Center or some such place, it probably would not be too much work to side-by-side one of the cheaper cabinets and a 1960.

sliberty
11-26-2008, 07:58 AM
Not sure, but I think I had heard that the MG's often come with Rocket 50's. Can anyone confirm?

mark norwine
11-26-2008, 08:23 AM
Just my opinion....discard as you see fit:

I'd avoid any cab that's labled "280W" because it contains 4 x G12M-70. What an awful speaker!

Eagle1
11-26-2008, 10:16 AM
MDF and Particle Board are similar, and even related, as already stated. Also explained how they were different. Didn't claim they were the same.

Both are used in both hi-fi and guitar and bass amplifier products.

Marshall started using particle board backs in the 1970s, prior to the JCM800 range.
Yes in 1973 like I said :BITCH.And you are still wrong about MDF (a cardboard type derivative as opposed to particle board ,just wood chips glued together TOTALLY DIFFERENT.:jo

siore
11-26-2008, 10:54 AM
MDF and particle board both fall under fiberboards, which are just pressed wood made from wood by-products. MDF is just that. Medium density, and it's denser than particleboard.

All these materials, particle board, MDF, baltic birch plywood, will each have their resonant (hence, acoustic) properties. So one is not necessarily better than the others, it just depends on your application.

In terms of durability, any engineering material will have a structural weakness. You just have to work around it and reinforce those weaknesses. Design and build the joints accordingly, and treat a material that needs to be treated more extensively.

Sorry if I'm a little off-topic. IMO, it's the combination of materials, design, and construction (factor in cost if you want) that make or break a good cabinet. To say that one is junk, based only on the material used, is just wrong to me.

jtm622
11-26-2008, 11:05 AM
MDF and particle board both fall under fiberboards, which are just pressed wood made from wood by-products. MDF is just that. Medium density, and it's denser than particleboard.

All these materials, particle board, MDF, baltic birch plywood, will each have their resonant (hence, acoustic) properties. So one is not necessarily better than the others, it just depends on your application.

In terms of durability, any engineering material will have a structural weakness. You just have to work around it and reinforce those weaknesses. Design and build the joints accordingly, and treat a material that needs to be treated more extensively.

Sorry if I'm a little off-topic. IMO, it's the combination of materials, design, and construction (factor in cost if you want) that make or break a good cabinet. To say that one is junk, based only on the material used, is just wrong to me.

Absolutely... and the tonal characteristics of the speaker(s) inside are the most important part of any cabinet... Also, remember that MDF is inherently more "consistent" from sheet to sheet than plywood is; and the predictable consistency of the components involved in making a cabinet is critical to "engineering" a speaker cabinet for mass production...

Eagle1
11-26-2008, 03:00 PM
OK guys ever lined up a row of different 4x12s all with vintage 30s?
you'd never believe they where the same speakers.

III
11-26-2008, 04:30 PM
Why does Marshall keep coming out with cool colored MG stacks? White, Red, Faun, and now Purple... but no cool colored 19060A, AX, TV, HW... etc? Can't buy the cheap (wood and $$$) cabs seperate anywhere I've seen. Would be fun, but maybe not cost effective, to load 'em with your speaker of choice.

So the new VM cabs are Dark Purple and they had the rad Limited Silver DSL with awesome Large Checker cab with Black logos... but c'mon Marshall, put out some colored higher end cabs... and make some metal replacement handles for 'em...

SatelliteAmps
11-26-2008, 05:13 PM
Yes in 1973 like I said :BITCH.And you are still wrong about MDF (a cardboard type derivative as opposed to particle board ,just wood chips glued together TOTALLY DIFFERENT.:jo

First off, calling me a BITCH is pretty pathetic.

Second, you talked about JCM800 cabs which weren't made in 1973.

Third, I'm still correct. Look it up. MDF, Hardboard (sometimes pushed into the Hard Density Fiberboard category, but not always), Particle Board, Oriented Strand Board (OSB, which tends to have more large fiberous strands) are all made from waste wood particles and glue. The main difference is the size of the particles and the compression of them. TOTALLY SIMILAR.

Next time you want to correct me, feel free to bring any proof to the table.

DirtyChains
11-26-2008, 06:00 PM
I think the one the OP is talking about is the one between the MG and the 1960a. Marshall says they roll off the same line as the 1960s. I myself was wondering if the construction was the same and the lower cost was speakers or if the cab itself was different. The 2x12 is $399 and the 4x12 is $599-again they are not the cheap MG ones.

zombiwoof
11-26-2008, 07:03 PM
I think the one the OP is talking about is the one between the MG and the 1960a. Marshall says they roll off the same line as the 1960s. I myself was wondering if the construction was the same and the lower cost was speakers or if the cab itself was different. The 2x12 is $399 and the 4x12 is $599-again they are not the cheap MG ones.

I'm the OP, and I was also wondering about the silver tolex cab that goes for even less, I think it was an MC (how do those differ from MG?). I have a Silver Jubilee head and can't spring the cash for an original silver Jubilee cab, and saw these. If it's MDF I'd pass.

Thanks for all the info, I've wondered about those cheaper cabs for some time.

Al

oldmanmetal
11-26-2008, 09:25 PM
WOOD FIBER FIGHT!!!!!! Come out gluing and lookout for splinters!

siore
11-26-2008, 10:34 PM
TOTALLY DIFFERENT
TOTALLY THE SAME
TOTALLY DIFFERENT.......

What's this? Duck season VS Wabbit season?? I'd say it's the same in some aspects, different in some. But not junk.

oldmanmetal
11-26-2008, 10:42 PM
Just buy an Avatar, and stick the Marshall logo on there. Just as cheap, and plywood.

zombiwoof
11-26-2008, 11:10 PM
(ignoring rampant bickering..)
I did some more research and found out the MC series cabs are the ones available from Marshall now, the MG cabs are not listed on their website. The MG cabs are only about $280, and are smaller than vintage cabs (27" wide vs. 30"). The dimensions of the MC cabs are closer to 1960 specs. The silver cab I saw was probably an MG 412A. The MC cabs have some kind of 50 watt speakers, and look like they don't have any piping on them.

Interestingly, I can't find any info on the wood used in the MC cabs, they are as another poster said made in England on the same line as the 1960 cabs, but it is never mentioned on the Marshall website or in the descriptions at stores if they are indeed some sort of MDF or particle board. I thought I might find some review of them that said what they are, but not so far.

zombiwoof
11-26-2008, 11:24 PM
Found out a little more. The Harmony Central reviews didn't have the MC412, but they had the 2-12 version, everyone says it's MDF with a plywood baffle, and some of them complained about the resonance of the cab. The 4-12 I assume is the same construction.

I'm also interested in the Hartke 4-12's they look good, are cheap and I think they are ply. Anyone try these?

Al

Zero
11-26-2008, 11:31 PM
I bought a used MG412 stack for this cover band I'm in. I have a 1960 A/B stack as well. The speakers are not Rocket 50's, they are 30 watts ea. G something-or-other, I forget. In the A cab they are labeled Celestions but the B cab which looks much newer and in better shape they are labeled Marshall/Celestion but have the same number. When I went to try them out I was expecting to hate them, and not buy them but I thought they were not bad for the $ and for hack cabs, to be abused. Other advantage is they are light and small for easy movement. The speakers are bright though. I had to change the settings (Presence way down) on my heads but overall I'm not disapointed in them.

Eagle1
11-27-2008, 03:49 AM
First off, calling me a BITCH is pretty pathetic.

Second, you talked about JCM800 cabs which weren't made in 1973.

Third, I'm still correct. Look it up. MDF, Hardboard (sometimes pushed into the Hard Density Fiberboard category, but not always), Particle Board, Oriented Strand Board (OSB, which tends to have more large fiberous strands) are all made from waste wood particles and glue. The main difference is the size of the particles and the compression of them. TOTALLY SIMILAR.

Next time you want to correct me, feel free to bring any proof to the table.
First when did I call you a bitch?????
Second I said Metal guys like JCM800s (particle board back.),not that they where made in 1973.:joThat was the year Marshall started to use particle board backs.
Why don't you read what I actually say.
So according to you MDF is the same as particle board and paper and cardboard and anything made out of compressed wood pulp or chips.
The RELEVANT point is processed wood fiber (MDF) or rough wood chips, totally different sonic properties.

felim
11-27-2008, 03:59 AM
I bought a used MG412 stack for this cover band I'm in. I have a 1960 A/B stack as well. The speakers are not Rocket 50's, they are 30 watts ea. G something-or-other, I forget. In the A cab they are labeled Celestions but the B cab which looks much newer and in better shape they are labeled Marshall/Celestion but have the same number. When I went to try them out I was expecting to hate them, and not buy them but I thought they were not bad for the $ and for hack cabs, to be abused. Other advantage is they are light and small for easy movement. The speakers are bright though. I had to change the settings (Presence way down) on my heads but overall I'm not disapointed in them.

I agree, I have an MG412 slant cab and it's simply not as bad as people make out. It was cheap, it's light and small. It does exactly what I wanted it to, give a little more spread to my sound. A 1960 undoubtedly would be far better, but the MGs are an OK cheap alternative.

The speakers in them are Celestion G12-30-MGs. Specifically for the MG series cabs.

I know feck all about the MC series except that they are made in the UK. I suspect they are very simliar to the MG series with better speakers (rocket 50s I think) and maybe a little closer to 1960 size-wise.

Iceman8.6
11-27-2008, 08:45 AM
The differences in cabinet material pale in comparison to the differences in speakers. The cheaper cabinets do NOT have Celestion G12T-75s in them. I opened up one of those lower-line Marshall cabinets once, and the speakers did have "Celestion" stickers on their little bitty magnets, but they were not the kind of Celestions anyone thinks of when they hear that name.

If you can get to a Guitar Center or some such place, it probably would not be too much work to side-by-side one of the cheaper cabinets and a 1960.

"The cheaper cabinets DO NOT have Celestion G12T 75s n them" So they sound good then?

darko
11-27-2008, 04:13 PM
First off, calling me a BITCH is pretty pathetic.

Second, you talked about JCM800 cabs which weren't made in 1973.

Third, I'm still correct. Look it up. MDF, Hardboard (sometimes pushed into the Hard Density Fiberboard category, but not always), Particle Board, Oriented Strand Board (OSB, which tends to have more large fiberous strands) are all made from waste wood particles and glue. The main difference is the size of the particles and the compression of them. TOTALLY SIMILAR.

Next time you want to correct me, feel free to bring any proof to the table.


Totaly uncool toward Eagle1 (and btw, he is 100% right).

SatelliteAmps
11-28-2008, 06:01 AM
Totaly uncool toward Eagle1 (and btw, he is 100% right).

Eagle1 and I are all good. We dealt with it privately.