Northwest Passage Opens

[Hootad Binky]

It's a big deal up here in Canada! Many people have died icebound trying to find the northern shipping alternative to the tip of South America or the Panama Canal. For the first time in history this fabled shipping lane to Asia has now opened up.
First commercial vessel braves Northwest Passage
November 29, 2008

Gjoa Haven, Nunavut -- A commercial vessel has travelled for the first time through the Northwest Passage this fall to deliver supplies to communities in western Nunavut, CBC News reported yesterday.

The broadcaster says the Coast Guard reports the MV Camilla Desgagnés, owned by Desgagnés Transarctik Inc., transported cargo to the hamlets of Cambridge Bay, Kugluktuk, Gjoa Haven and Taloyoak from Montreal in September.

Brian LeBlanc of the Coast Guard told the CBC he believes it's the first commercial cargo delivery from the east through the passage, which normally is impassable due to thick ice.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20081129.NATS29OTT/TPStory/National

http://www.sciam.com/media/gallery/7315E992-D2C0-1FAC-8174A208D99EFAED_4.jpg

This new passageway between Europe and Asia will completely change world shipping. These are also vast reserves of fossil fuels beneath the contested waters of the Arctic Ocean.

http://www.sciam.com/media/gallery/7315E992-D2C0-1FAC-8174A208D99EFAED_5.jpg

Makes me think of the Stan Rogers accapella men-bellowing classic:
North West Passage

Ah, for just one time I would take the Northwest Passage
To find the hand of Franklin reaching for the Beaufort Sea;

http://www.ypsidixit.com/blog/archives/beech_ex_a.jpg

Tracing one warm line through a land so wild and savage
And make a Northwest Passage to the sea.

http://www.expeterra.com/images/franklin.jpeg

Westward from the Davis Strait 'tis there 'twas said to lie
The sea route to the Orient for which so many died;
Seeking gold and glory, leaving weathered, broken bones
And a long-forgotten lonely cairn of stones.

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/ap/059bd4bd-2d63-43ae-a06d-062cf0b0d2ba.widec.jpg

Three centuries thereafter, I take passage overland
In the footsteps of brave Kelso, where his "sea of flowers" began
Watching cities rise before me, then behind me sink again
This tardiest explorer, driving hard across the plain.

And through the night, behind the wheel, the mileage clicking west
I think upon Mackenzie, David Thompson and the rest
Who cracked the mountain ramparts and did show a path for me
To race the roaring Fraser to the sea.

How then am I so different from the first men through this way?
Like them, I left a settled life, I threw it all away.
To seek a Northwest Passage at the call of many men
To find there but the road back home again.

Rogers is highly-revered up here in Canada. Here's a video that includes the original version, listen for that Celtic tones of that East Coast accent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz6vU1iSA0k

Great stuff!

[epluribus]

Wicked link! :BEER

[Seditious]

Wow. This is a truly a huge deal. Will it be a good thing though?

[scottlr]

Is this due to global warming, and the ice melting? Might be good for shipping, but in the long run... who knows? There's a lot of other things to consider if that's what it is.

[phoenix 7]

Is this due to global warming, and the ice melting?

Yeah, environmentalists have been talking about the northwest passage opening up for a while. It's another milestone in the process. Ice melts when it gets warm. The conclusion is unavoidable.

[Hootad Binky]

^ Yup. The arctic is heating up faster then anywhere else on earth.

Basically the US, Russia, Canada, Denmark and others (?) all claim the reserves beneath and around the North Pole. Eventually there will be no ice in summer.

[jimfog]

I think it's a figment of the imagination of all the Northwest Passagazis in the MSM.

[scottlr]

If that happened very slowly, we might be able to cope with it. Things would right themselves if it was slow enough... maybe. It's cool that someone finally got all the way through, but at what cost? And what if several countries all start arguing over the rights to the oil prospects?

I think it's time for oil to go away. At least from OUR point of view. We'll never have all of the oil we need. So we MUST find new alternatives of energy. It's hard to imagine something beyond the gas cars we drive being as much fun and as cool for the car guys. But I can imagine a car with a lot of power that would be as cool as a 60s/70s GTO to spark new interest for the car guys. The rest of us just want to get from point A to point B in as much comfort as possible.

[mge80]

Eventually there will be no ice in summer.



At some point, as is inevitable, things will reverse and it will close again. And yet eventually still, there will be another Ice Age. And another Yellowstone eruption. The world moves on, as it will. Regardless of what any of us label as "huge".

For the first time in history this fabled shipping lane to Asia has now opened up.

For the first time in who's history?

[Marcel]

GREAT! Lets drill for more oil....mankind...will never learn.

[phoenix 7]

I think it's a figment of the imagination of all the Northwest Passagazis in the MSM.

Yes, everyone knows we're really experiencing "global cooling." They probably faked the passage by putting the ship on ice skates.

[Zilmo]

Yes, of course. The planet has never experienced ANY climate change in the past. This is all brand new.

[The Last Rebel]

Yes, of course. The planet has never experienced ANY climate change in the past. This is all brand new.
You didn't know? We're basing this grand theory about how we've caused a global climate change based on only fifty years of accurately gathered data! It must be true!

[Hootad Binky]

At some point, as is inevitable, things will reverse and it will close again. And yet eventually still, there will be another Ice Age. And another Yellowstone eruption. The world moves on, as it will. Regardless of what any of us label as "huge"And I'll be dead! ;)For the first time in who's history?recorded history (unless there are other sources from before the last Ice Age)?

[TNJ]

^ Yup. The arctic is heating up faster then anywhere else on earth.

Basically the US, Russia, Canada, Denmark and others (?) all claim the reserves beneath and around the North Pole. Eventually there will be no ice in summer.

Why is it that sea ice in the arctic has been forming at a record rate this year?

S.
j

[Seditious]

At some point, as is inevitable, things will reverse and it will close again. And yet eventually still, there will be another Ice Age. And another Yellowstone eruption. The world moves on, as it will. Regardless of what any of us label as "huge"

I was speaking of the effect this will have on shipping and oil rights. It will have a "huge" impact. I was not speaking about global warming so my thoughts on that are still unknown to you. :)

[phoenix 7]

Why is it that sea ice in the arctic has been forming at a record rate this year?


In the arctic? Or the antarctic? Links? Anybody can say anything here -- reliable sources help.

I've read a report or two of increased sea ice in the antarctic. Not sure how reliable they were, though.

[soulohio]

somebody somewhere is calculating the money to be made if we are all starving, floating on boat houses, killing for a gallon of fule and having to defend ourselves from two legged predators...doom and gloom- get in on the bottom and you can sleep on a pile of yer profits even if you can't find someone to take your dollars...

FURST!!

[Jon C]

Why is it that sea ice in the arctic has been forming at a record rate this year?

S.
j

source and first hand evidence in support please? ... just want to see the facts, not the conclusion ... :cool:

[bluesjuke]

Yes, everyone knows we're really experiencing "global cooling."



Well that has been reported recently.

[roomservice]

If that happened very slowly, we might be able to cope with it. Things would right themselves if it was slow enough... maybe. It's cool that someone finally got all the way through, but at what cost? And what if several countries all start arguing over the rights to the oil prospects?

I think it's time for oil to go away. At least from OUR point of view. We'll never have all of the oil we need. So we MUST find new alternatives of energy. It's hard to imagine something beyond the gas cars we drive being as much fun and as cool for the car guys. But I can imagine a car with a lot of power that would be as cool as a 60s/70s GTO to spark new interest for the car guys. The rest of us just want to get from point A to point B in as much comfort as possible.

They are already arguing about oil reserves up there...watch out for Putin and the return of the big red bear though- Russian Parliament have just passed a new law where the President can stand for 6 years not 4. As Putin stood down recently, this could be viewed as a brand new way of voting so, if the current President stood down for ill health then you could have Putin standing again ...and be in for 12 years.....that's plain unhealthy in my opinion......but he has a plan, there's no denying that....not quite a new cold war but the days of the frieindly bear are over for a little while methinks.

[Midnight Lady]

I think it's fortunate/unfortunate about the Northwest Passage. Great for an east/west transporation route but with all the countries bordering on that area, the disputes are about to shift into high gear.

No one ever said that global warming wasn't a natural phenomenon. It's just the SPEED of this warming that is unusual and unhealthy environmentally.

It's amazing how world conferences of reknowned scientists are somehow being called "wrong" by people who have no idea what they're talking about. There is global warming. Period. Full stop.

We can't stop its progression but we could, if we chose to, slow it down.

[TNJ]

source and first hand evidence in support please? ... just want to see the facts, not the conclusion ... :cool:
"Sea ice extent for the month of October averaged 8.40 million square kilometers. As of October 31, ice extent was at 9.27 million square kilometers, more than doubling since the annual minimum of 4.52 million square kilometers measured on September 14,2008.
October ice extent was 0.89 million square kilometers less than for the 1979-2000 average, but 1.63 million square kilometers greater than October 2007."

-National Snow and Ice Data Center (nsidc.orlg -look under arctic sea ice news)

S.
j

[Smakutus]

It's amazing how world conferences of reknowned scientists are somehow being called "wrong" by people who have no idea what they're talking about. There is global warming. Period. Full stop.


In the mid 70's these same types said we were on our way to the next ice age..

Jeff

[Zilmo]

In the mid 70's these same types said we were on our way to the next ice age..

Jeff


And what happened to acid rain that was going to wipe us out by the turn of the millennium?

[Smakutus]

And what happened to acid rain that was going to wipe us out by the turn of the millennium?

I ju$t don't totally tru$t tho$e guy$ and gal$ and their theorie$..:bow

Jeff

[phoenix 7]

"Sea ice extent for the month of October averaged 8.40 million square kilometers. As of October 31, ice extent was at 9.27 million square kilometers, more than doubling since the annual minimum of 4.52 million square kilometers measured on September 14,2008.
October ice extent was 0.89 million square kilometers less than for the 1979-2000 average, but 1.63 million square kilometers greater than October 2007."

-National Snow and Ice Data Center



Where? Links? I think this is in the Antarctic, not the Arctic. Is this a US federal agency? Or some private think tank? It's so important to know exactly where reports like this come from, whether they're funded by interest groups, etc.

[The Last Rebel]

I think it's fortunate/unfortunate about the Northwest Passage. Great for an east/west transporation route but with all the countries bordering on that area, the disputes are about to shift into high gear.

No one ever said that global warming wasn't a natural phenomenon. It's just the SPEED of this warming that is unusual and unhealthy environmentally.

It's amazing how world conferences of reknowned scientists are somehow being called "wrong" by people who have no idea what they're talking about. There is global warming. Period. Full stop.

We can't stop its progression but we could, if we chose to, slow it down.
How do we know there's global warming, how? The earth has been aropund in a state very similar to the one we are in now for millions of years, we're barely a dot on the timeline of earth. To prove something as huge and grandiose as global warming we'd need hundreds possibly thousands of years of accurately gathered data. We simply don't have that. We've got about fifty years worth. At this point, and for many more hundreds of years to come, we won't know if this is our fault or just a natural part of the earth's life cycle. Global warming isn't as easy to prove as gravity, it's quite a bit more involved than that.

[Hootad Binky]

Why is it that sea ice in the arctic has been forming at a record rate this year?

S.
jWell, this just in...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/img/afp_logo.gif?hl=en

Climate change gathers steam, say scientists

14 hours ago

PARIS (AFP) — Earth's climate appears to be changing more quickly and deeply than a benchmark UN report for policymakers predicted, top scientists said ahead of international climate talks starting Monday in Poland.

Evidence published since the Intergovernmental Panel for Climate Change's (IPCC) February 2007 report suggests that future global warming may be driven not just by things over which humans have a degree of control, such as burning fossil fuels or destroying forest, a half-dozen climate experts told AFP.

Even without additional drivers, the IPCC has warned that current rates of greenhouse gas emissions, if unchecked, would unleash devastating droughts, floods and huge increases in human misery by century's end.

But the new studies, they say, indicate that human activity may be triggering powerful natural forces that would be nearly impossible to reverse and that could push temperatures up even further.

At the top of the list for virtually all of the scientists canvassed was the rapid melting of the Arctic ice cap.

"In the last couple of years, Arctic Sea ice is at an all-time low in summer, which has got a lot of people very, very concerned," commented Robert Watson, Chief Scientific Advisor for Britain's department for environmental affairs and chairman of the IPCC's previous assessment in 2001.

"This has implication's for Earth's climate because it can clearly lead to a positive feedback effect," he said in an interview.

When the reflective ice surface retreats, the Sun's radiation -- heat -- is absorbed by open water rather than bounced back into the atmosphere, creating a vicious circle of heating.

"We had always known that the Arctic was going to respond first," said Mark Serreze of the National Snow and Ice Data Center in Boulder, Colorado. "What has us puzzled is that the changes are even faster than we would have thought possible," he said by phone.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jm60RsU1qwhWRnx_amfJlluY6QwgHow do we know there's global warming, how?
http://mb-soft.com/public3/2.jpg

It happens on a regular geologic basis and this is has been standard knowledge for some time...

The earth has been aropund in a state very similar to the one we are in now for millions of years

http://www.awi.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Research/Research_Divisions/Geosciences/Marine_Geology_and_Paleontology/Klimakurve_WebPage.jpg

No, it hasn't.


http://www.awi.de/en/research/research_divisions/geosciences/marine_geology_and_paleontology/

we'd need hundreds possibly thousands of years of accurately gathered data. We simply don't have that. We've got about fifty years worthYou're joking, right?

At this point, and for many more hundreds of years to come, we won't know if this is our fault or just a natural part of the earth's life cycleNo, we already know it is. Climatology is a well-established science.
Global warming isn't as easy to prove as gravity, it's quite a bit more involved than that.There is not debate as to whether global warming is happening - it is - it's what causing it and how fast it will accelerate and whether we can do anything to slow it, because it's definately not good for us humans. In fact, many claim the current warming spell is in fact natural and nothing to worry about while ignoring the well-established fact that greenhouse gases raise the temper ature of the Earth.

And, for the record, "gravity" has not been "proven," it's a force of nature, not a theory :)

[TNJ]

Guys,
Check www.nsidc.org (http://www.nsidc.org)

(in the "Arctic Sea Ice News)

S.
j

[Hootad Binky]

Guys,
Check www.nsidc.org (http://www.nsidc.org/)

(in the "Arctic Sea Ice News)

S.
j
I did and it says that overall arctic ice has continued to decline since 1979-2000:

http://www.nsidc.org/images/arcticseaicenews/200811_Figure1_thumb.png (http://www.nsidc.org/images/arcticseaicenews/200811_Figure1.png)
Figure 1. Arctic sea ice extent for October 2008 was 8.40 million square kilometers (3.24 million square miles). The magenta line shows the 1979 to 2000 average extent for October. The black cross indicates the geographic North Pole. Sea Ice Index data.

http://www.nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/And regarding this year and right now it says:

As is normal for this time of year, ice extent (http://www.nsidc.org/cgi-bin/words/word.pl?ice%20extent) increased rapidly through most of October.

[TNJ]

I did and it says that overall arctic ice has continued to decline since 1979-2000:


And regarding this year and right now it says:


Well,
That WAS my question, if you read it. What is up with the record rate of arctic sea ice growth now?
And I caught all the flack...

Sometimes this place is tiresome.

S.
j

[The Last Rebel]

Well, this just in...



It happens on a regular geologic basis and this is has been standard knowledge for some time...

No, we already know it is. Climatology is a well-established science.
There is not debate as to whether global warming is happening - it is - it's what causing it and how fast it will accelerate and whether we can do anything to slow it, because it's definately not good for us humans. In fact, many claim the current warming spell is in fact natural and nothing to worry about while ignoring the well-established fact that greenhouse gases raise the temper ature of the Earth.

And, for the record, "gravity" has not been "proven," it's a force of nature, not a theory :)
(I edited some of it for length.)

All that you've proven to me is that earth periodically gets warmer, I already knew that. I'm not disputing the fact that there is natural climate change. I do, however, dispute the fact that we are causing any sort of significant, rapid change right now.

[DaveF]

All those caveman camp fires pumped out the co2 that warmed us out of the last ice age.

[phretbored]

follow the money

[Tonefish]

So we should have plenty of water?

[Zilmo]

So we should have plenty of water?


Of course not. It was all used up putting out the Y2K conflagration.

[Scott Miller]

follow the money

That's for sure. The oil industry.

[90wreck]

That's it, and the OP just posted the news
Another twisted/off topic thread.
Let's talk about what this could mean(commerce wise..some have) instead of........

How long do you think it could STAY open and what effect will it have on international shipping?(cutting costs and also the possibility of now having "Ice Pirates?")
I don't know and would like to hear some input on these possibilities/issues.
Global warming is another thread.
THE PASSAGE IS OPEN!!!!!
(I really don't want to know why, just what is the effect it is going to have on economies(mainly ours) and who will rule the waters?).
Anybody have any thoughts overall, "What could this mean?"
:dunno

[Scott Miller]

Does this mean that big giant ships can go from China/Japan to Europe that way? Is it that much different from going through Panama?

[90wreck]

Does this mean that big giant ships can go from China/Japan to Europe that way? Is it that much different from going through Panama?
I would like to know this as well.

[The Last Rebel]

I wonder who'll get rights to it? Could be good for whoever does.

[phretbored]

That's for sure. The oil industry.

How about the carbon credit hustling game/business/scam?

[roomservice]

All that you've proven to me is that earth periodically gets warmer, I already knew that. I'm not disputing the fact that there is natural climate change. I do, however, dispute the fact that we are causing any sort of significant, rapid change right now.

noticed the change in the weather and seasons since you were a kid recently?>

[loudboy]

In the mid 70's these same types said we were on our way to the next ice age..

Jeff

You're right, there's certainly been no advances in any of the sciences in 30 years.

I'll go to the library, type up the latest data and mail it to you... <g>

[stratovarius]

Who needs data when one can make solid conclusions based upon the "types" of people who support a theory?

[Hootad Binky]

All that you've proven to me is that earth periodically gets warmer, I already knew that. I'm not disputing the fact that there is natural climate change. I do, however, dispute the fact that we are causing any sort of significant, rapid change right now.Do you dispute that we are pumping massive amounts of CO2/methane/natural gas in to the air? Because we are. And those are greenhouse gases. Do you dispute that greenhouses gases cause global warming? Because they do. They have clearly caused global warming in the past so there's no reason to assume it can't happen again.

As for the Northwest passage, I hope there isn't a horrible oil spill up there when the inevitable rise in traffic ultimately comes :(

More people will live in the North.

The North and the Polar region will also become more militarized, with every bordering country up there with its own bases, defending their varied and assorted interests...

[jpfeiff]

Does this mean that big giant ships can go from China/Japan to Europe that way? Is it that much different from going through Panama?

It will eventually mean this and the route is much shorter than going through the Panama Canal...

[sonhenry]

but this is not a good thing. it's a bad climate indicator no matter what you think that cause (or lack of one) is. It's the end of polar bears, except for the zoos of the world too, if the sea ice goes. All in all, not something we should celebrate.

[soulohio]

since we have banned the "bad" freon refrigerant the ozone hole over antartica has closed up a bit. science does work...even though we deal with a huger experiment.

[epluribus]

Northwest Passage Opens

Were there lines of people outside Friday morning waiting?

[Scott Miller]

I'm not into cruise ships, but I would be sorely tempted to take one through there. I think that would be awesome.

[Chuck King]

Whoever caused it, global warming is underway, and it doesn't look like it's going to change any time soon, no matter how many Priuses people buy. The finger pointing over who or what is responsible is really exasperating. The conversation really should be about how we are going to deal with the inevitable consequences, and pretending that relatively minor lifestyle changes are going to mean diddly-squat is not productive.

For all the awful things that are likely to happen in coming decades due to climate change, if the Northwest Passage opens and remains open consistently for a good chunk of the year, there will at least be a few good things to come out of the new situation, in that it will become easier and cheaper to move stuff around the northern hemisphere. Maybe that won't counterbalance all the projected negative effects, but those things are going to happen anyway---why not focus, at least for a few minutes, on this little silver lining to that threatening storm cloud?

[Smakutus]

You're right, there's certainly been no advances in any of the sciences in 30 years.

I'll go to the library, type up the latest data and mail it to you... <g>

$orry ju$t not buying into thi$ $tuff.

What caused the last ice age? (The earth got colder!)

What caused that ice to recede? (The earth got warmer!)

Man had nothing to do with it either way.

The earth is always changing, and the earth always will. Humans will adapt to the changes, some animals will not. It sucks but what can you do? Nothing..

Jeff

[jcoloccia]

For what it's worth....

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html

and

http://www.physorg.com/news11710.html

and

http://www.junkscience.com/Greenhouse/

and

http://nov55.com/gbwm.html

So you may want to consider espresso instead of boiling water for tea :D

By the way, I didn't hand pick these. I just took the first few that seemed reasonable from google so I don't even know what most of their conclusions are. I figure we can all form our own opinions.

Seriously, though, it'll be interesting to see what moves Canada makes up there, if any. They've already had their wrists slapped a bit for claiming it was their's (which it probably is...LOL).

re: the passage being open for the first time in history.
As far as I know, we've only been paying attention to the Northwest Passage for about 30 years. It may have opened many many times without anyone knowing. It was navigable last year but closed back up. It just opened again this year. Ships have reported crossing the passage through history (without an icebreaker, of course). Most just got stuck, sank etc, though.