Cable lacing vs zip ties

[Nolatone Ampworks]

Any opinions as to using one vs the other for internal chassis wire management?

[PRNDL]

I'm not sure where you'd be using it (the power transformer?), but in my experience, the plastic used in cable ties degrades over a decade or so, which is within the lifespan of a hand wired tube amp.

Also, lacing is a cool technique not seen much anymore, which could be a real selling point.

[Nolatone Ampworks]

I'm not sure where you'd be using it (the power transformer?), but in my experience, the plastic used in cable ties degrades over a decade or so, which is within the lifespan of a hand wired tube amp.

Also, lacing is a cool technique not seen much anymore, which could be a real selling point.

Sortof my thinking too.

If I layed my wiring out and made a jig I could pretty easily lace up a bundle, and it would probably make installing the wiring even easier.

Matchless does it. Who else?

[Tone_Terrific]

Not all cable ties are created equal, but I can't speak to the specs.

[Ronsonic]

Lacing is extraordinarily cool and surely adds major mojo.

Look to vintage Hiwatt for inspiration.

Planning is more important with all those parallel runs. Have to be sure to not form loops of ground wires or run inappropriate things in the same bundle. None of that's news to you.

[teleamp]

I've "sewn" thousands of miles of cabling in phone central offices, and nothing looks neater than well organized wiring. 9 cord will last a lifetime.

Get the right stuff and learn the right knots, it will look great.

[Nolatone Ampworks]

Lacing (with wax/nylon ties) is definitely preferable. I installed many comm systems at NASA in Houston and lacing was the way we did it, to spec provided by those above us. Nuttin' wrong with tie wraps for short-term install, but lacing is better. And it looks cool, especially if all your knots are oriented the exact same way.

I was looking at Newark.com and Alpha cable has several types of cord coating. Wax has a melting point of 130 degrees, but Thermoplastic Resin is good up to 350 degrees.

I've never measured the inside temp of a chassis, but I would say 130 degrees is pushing it when you get those tubes cooking.

[VacuumVoodoo]

I've "sewn" thousands of miles of cabling in phone central offices, and nothing looks neater than well organized wiring. 9 cord will last a lifetime.

Get the right stuff and learn the right knots, it will look great.

Yes it will look pretty. How does one replace a wire in such a sausage if need arises? Untie/cut a number of knots,replace the wire, arrange the wire bundle back to its original shape, re-saw the sausage....major PITA. You can get aesthetically pleasing results and better serviceability with self-locking bands. Just get quality stuff and a good spanner. Avoid the cheap stuff that comes in a nice box in several colors, they brake easily when you tighten them and the locks don't hold. You need the ones with an embedded steel spring in the lock head.

[ChickenLover]

That would be my only concern...ease of serviceability when using the lacing. Some the Mil-spec-wired equipment I use at work was laced and it does look good...of course almost nobody sees it.

but in my experience, the plastic used in cable ties degrades over a decade or so, which is within the lifespan of a hand wired tube amp.
Yea but imo by the time they degrade that wire ain't going nowhere...it's been in that position for 10 years...it's pretty much fixed.

[RedMan]

I would advise against either. I know Hiwatt and Matchless do it but I think you're asking for trouble with all those parallel wire runs. Especially if you have some gain going on. If youre set on doing it for aesthetic reasons then lacing is the way to go. Cable ties look like tacky. I use single strand wire and go to extra trouble to make sure my wire runs stay as far away from each other as possible. If they cross it's at as much of a right angle as possible. I almost never have oscillation or noise problems even with extreme gain.

[dick wiewy]

Yes it will look pretty. How does one replace a wire in such a sausage if need arises? Untie/cut a number of knots,replace the wire, arrange the wire bundle back to its original shape, re-saw the sausage....major PITA. You can get aesthetically pleasing results and better serviceability with self-locking bands. Just get quality stuff and a good spanner. Avoid the cheap stuff that comes in a nice box in several colors, they brake easily when you tighten them and the locks don't hold. You need the ones with an embedded steel spring in the lock head.

Have a look at this gentleman's amplifier construction techniques and tell me that it's not sexier than anything Matchless or HiWatt or NASA for that matter, ever built.:cool:YMMV

I too have lusted after lacing. Hell I bought a big spool of the waxed, anti-bacterial, etc. stuff. I learned the knots from the USAF guidelines and got very consistent/proficient at it. Only to have to change out a few wires in a long run (sausage,LOL) and I wasted a lotta time trying to get it look as perfect as it had been originally. It never looked as nice.
Back to wire ties.:mad:
The "spanner" must be the little gun device with adjustable tensioning, correct? Mine makes the crappy wire ties self-destruct at mid tension setting.
I believe the Nylon ties vacuum voodoo speaks of are the same design the Law Enforcement use for handcuffs.

IMHO;
The bottom line is the neatest wiring loom isn't always the quietest. (There are plenty of "hissy" HiWatts out there.)

[Nolatone Ampworks]

Part of the argument the military uses for lacing is that it grips the wires without compressing the insulation and cauing problems with that sort of pinching.

Does that matter in a tube amp? I guess that's a debate inof itself.

[Nolatone Ampworks]

I would advise against either. I know Hiwatt and Matchless do it but I think you're asking for trouble with all those parallel wire runs. Especially if you have some gain going on. If youre set on doing it for aesthetic reasons then lacing is the way to go. Cable ties look like tacky. I use single strand wire and go to extra trouble to make sure my wire runs stay as far away from each other as possible. If they cross it's at as much of a right angle as possible. I almost never have oscillation or noise problems even with extreme gain.

I don't run signal parallel with high voltage/heater/etc.

I thought of it because I tend to end up routing wires from the pilot/power/standby switch around the outside edge of the chassis to the rear where the other ends go. I figure, why not lace 'em, and do it in advance on a jig so I don't have to wrestle with all those dangling wires getting in my way.

As to the service difficulty, if one has to cut into the bundle, heck, just clip out the laces and throw a few zip ties in there when yer done!

[VacuumVoodoo]

Have a look at this gentleman's amplifier construction techniques and tell me that it's not sexier than anything Matchless or HiWatt or NASA for that matter, ever built.:cool:YMMV

Well, well, thanks. But where did you find pics of my amps guts? Or did you have an opportunity to open one? Just curious.

I believe the Nylon ties vacuum voodoo speaks of are the same design the Law Enforcement use for handcuffs.

Luckily I never had any encounters with Law Enforcement during my visits to US so am unable to confirm or deny.


As to the service difficulty, if one has to cut into the bundle, heck, just clip out the laces and throw a few zip ties in there when yer done!

A sign of service/repair friendliness is, IMO, how easy it is to do a repair without leaving any visible traces of it having been done. That, too, is a test of repair techs skill.

[teleamp]

Yes it will look pretty. How does one replace a wire in such a sausage if need arises? Untie/cut a number of knots,replace the wire, arrange the wire bundle back to its original shape, re-saw the sausage....major PITA.....

True, it is a pita to do proper repairs on, but it is a cool touch and shows pride in workmanship on both the builders and any technicians part that happens to do a repair on it.

[Nolatone Ampworks]

A sign of service/repair friendliness is, IMO, how easy it is to do a repair without leaving any visible traces of it having been done. That, too, is a test of repair techs skill.

I get the servicability point. From that standpoint, why is lacing still being done anywhere? It can't be just for looks.

[phsyconoodler]

What kind of nylon zip ties only last a decade?Maybe made in china ones.I have real nylon ones in automotive applications that have been in oily,hot,generally very nasty environments in race cars that last forever.
So a hand wired amp will only last a decade?
There are other bundling solutions out there for those interested in looking.

[davemccarthy707]

Aviation ty-raps will last 50+ years easy. Black aircraft wax lacing or white wax lacing will last equally long. Its all a matter of taste. As an Aircraft mechanic I would recommend the wax lacing only for neatness. Aircraft manufacturers still use wax lacing on aircraft for the weight saving factor. I have seen it used everywhere including engine harnesses. Ty-raps will not hold up to the extreme heat generated under a jet engine cowling. ;)

[HipKitty]

I lace most of my lines and use a couple of nylon ties near the power tranny to keep them safely out of the way of the chassis strap screws.

[RedMan]

I don't run signal parallel with high voltage/heater/etc.

I thought of it because I tend to end up routing wires from the pilot/power/standby switch around the outside edge of the chassis to the rear where the other ends go. I figure, why not lace 'em, and do it in advance on a jig so I don't have to wrestle with all those dangling wires getting in my way.

As to the service difficulty, if one has to cut into the bundle, heck, just clip out the laces and throw a few zip ties in there when yer done!

Those aren't the only wires that might not get along.

[Nolatone Ampworks]

Those aren't the only wires that might not get along.

The wires in that bundle are the 6.3v filament supply, line AC, and hot side of the standby switch.

HT lines not in there.

Output tranny is on opposite end of chassis, and I seperate primaries from secondaries.

[Gatorman352]

Sortof my thinking too.

If I layed my wiring out and made a jig I could pretty easily lace up a bundle, and it would probably make installing the wiring even easier.

Matchless does it. Who else?


My Bad Cat uses that technique but I guess that is because M.S. designed them and the Matchless.

[phsyconoodler]

Nolatone,
Can you show us an example of your wiring?Not looking to steal any circuits,just curious about your methods.

[Ronsonic]

I've replaced Hiwatt trannies and have no gripes about dealing with the loom. Yeah, it takes longer, we bill more and the customer has a brilliant amp that is beautiful according to both musical and technical aesthetics. What's to complain about.

[Nolatone Ampworks]

Nolatone,
Can you show us an example of your wiring?Not looking to steal any circuits,just curious about your methods.

I'll get you a pic of the one I'm finishing up now, hopefully today.

Thanks,

Paul

[ChickenLover]

Those aren't the only wires that might not get along.
Yes...you do have to know which wires can be close and which ones can't (and that would probably start whole 'nuther debate). And that's the case no matter which harnessing method you use.

If I ever built amps that were 'production' models then I might consider it...but I'm just a hobbyist and mine are always prototypes and are almost guaranteed to be modded.

This is probably too off-topic but I gotta ask: I have read the OT primary center tap wire should NOT be twisted with the plate wires. Is this true and if so...why?

[Nolatone Ampworks]

Yes...you do have to know which wires can be close and which ones can't (and that would probably start whole 'nuther debate). And that's the case no matter which harnessing method you use.

If I ever built amps that were 'production' models then I might consider it...but I'm just a hobbyist and mine are always prototypes and are almost guaranteed to be modded.

This is probably too off-topic but I gotta ask: I have read the OT primary center tap wire should NOT be twisted with the plate wires. Is this true and if so...why?

In my case, I've already worked out routing thats proven to work in several units. I see no hazard in taking that routing and lacing it where it makes sense.

[KCblues]

Yes it will look pretty. How does one replace a wire in such a sausage if need arises? Untie/cut a number of knots,replace the wire, arrange the wire bundle back to its original shape, re-saw the sausage....major PITA. You can get aesthetically pleasing results and better serviceability with self-locking bands. Just get quality stuff and a good spanner. Avoid the cheap stuff that comes in a nice box in several colors, they brake easily when you tighten them and the locks don't hold. You need the ones with an embedded steel spring in the lock head.

There's actually a special tool for stuffing an additional wire in a bundle:
http://www.edmo.com/index.php?module=products&func=display&prod_id=35089&cat_id=945

My day job is aviation electonics, and lacing is simply old technology. Tie wraps are used essentially everywhere now. As noted by others, use high-quality ties made of nylon. The extra expense of steel springs in the head is not needed IMO.

[RedMan]

Yes...you do have to know which wires can be close and which ones can't (and that would probably start whole 'nuther debate). And that's the case no matter which harnessing method you use.

If I ever built amps that were 'production' models then I might consider it...but I'm just a hobbyist and mine are always prototypes and are almost guaranteed to be modded.

This is probably too off-topic but I gotta ask: I have read the OT primary center tap wire should NOT be twisted with the plate wires. Is this true and if so...why?

I stay away from any "harnessing methods"

[Ronsonic]

This is probably too off-topic but I gotta ask: I have read the OT primary center tap wire should NOT be twisted with the plate wires. Is this true and if so...why?

Capacitance in parallel with the windings?

Seems reasonable enough as something to avoid.

[Strung Up]

Lacing (with wax/nylon ties) is definitely preferable. I installed many comm systems at NASA in Houston and lacing was the way we did it, to spec provided by those above us. Nuttin' wrong with tie wraps for short-term install, but lacing is better. And it looks cool, especially if all your knots are oriented the exact same way.

Lacing done right looks slick, and w/ practice, is just as easy to tie/cut as tie-wrap (maybe easier to cut).

Other than aesthetics, it's main advantage for comm or data installations is the guarantee of no sharp prodruding cut tie-wrap ends to shear either new cable runs being pulled adjacent, or the forearms of folks doing maintenance/install work. That's less of a factor w/ amp guts lead dress.

[Nolatone Ampworks]

Folks, someone in this thread mentioned zip tie guns that use too much tension. I ordered this one last week and it's adjustable down to where you can twist the tie on the bundle, and all the way up to...well, as much as you'll need in a tube amp.

At http://www.mcmaster.com , p/n 5401T1.

Adjustable from 6 - 30lb tension.