View Full Version : Original RAT interest?
I am thinking about doing a RAT based pedal and wanted to gauge the interest?
This would be a direct clone of the original (late 70’s - mid 80’s) circuit using high quality components aimed at those that regret getting rid of their original, or that never got a chance to hear the difference from the versions that exist today. I have tinkered with the circuit, but keep coming back to the original design as being the best for those aggressive hard rock / metal tones that are bright, yet uniquely smooth. In front of a British style amp this is the raw sound that was heard so widely in the 80’s.
:RoCkIn
Nolatone Ampworks
12-04-2008, 06:39 AM
I am thinking about doing a RAT based pedal and wanted to gauge the interest?
This would be a direct clone of the original (late 70’s - mid 80’s) circuit using high quality components aimed at those that regret getting rid of their original, or that never got a chance to hear the difference from the versions that exist today. I have tinkered with the circuit, but keep coming back to the original design as being the best for those aggressive hard rock / metal tones that are bright, yet uniquely smooth. In front of a British style amp this is the raw sound that was heard so widely in the 80’s.
:RoCkIn
What's the price point going to be? Depending on that, I'd buy one.
What's the price point going to be? Depending on that, I'd buy one.
May vary slightly, but I would try to keep these in the $150 range.
sounds cool. I'm a fan of the original, unmodded ones.
I'm lucky to have 2 of the small box/no led rats from the 80's.
these also work wonderfully into fender style amps or any clean amp really (even SS amps!)
IMO, some of the modded ones have too much bass. I had a newer Rat2, and it sounded MUCH different in comparo to my old one (even after being modded). Definitely not as smooth and creamy on the high end.
jfromel
12-05-2008, 04:12 PM
The Rat is a classic circuit that not many builders are doing right now, I think you would do well with it. I helped another pedal maker with a design that was RAT based, I wanted to do the original LED circuit that was the predecessor to the millinium bypass but they went with the more conventional 3PDT. For such a simple circuit there was some innovation in that little ProCo Box and the originals do sound fantastic.
IMO, some of the modded ones have too much bass. I had a newer Rat2, and it sounded MUCH different in comparo to my old one (even after being modded). Definitely not as smooth and creamy on the high end.
That is what I think the original really nailed....smooth high end and just the right level of bass. They had a magic all their own.
The Rat is a classic circuit that not many builders are doing right now, I think you would do well with it.
Exactly what I was thinking. Many seem to love the old design and they have far fewer options than some of the other classic designs.
DirtBoxMan
12-05-2008, 09:58 PM
I like the original big box in it's pristine original form, and it's kind of a shame (IMO) that the few current LM308N based pedals currently offered somewhat deviate or attempt to improve on the original theme.
150 sounds good IMO, and extra bennies if you can find any canister 308's.
rockabilly69
12-06-2008, 03:19 AM
I'm a Rat fan, and have two originals. One of them is on almost every slide guitar I've ever recorded (and that's a lot). They sound good with every amp I've ever used, and they even sound good with my TopHat Royale which is a very picky amp with pedals. They sound the best with my early 50's Chicago Webster amps. You guys talk alot about the bass, but what wins it for me is the way they tend to bring out vocal qualities when playing slide.
Dan
alschnier
12-06-2008, 06:14 AM
fwiw - isn't hard to compete w. the 'vintage' market when your clone pedal will be at approx the same price point?
if yours was going to be different, unique, or better in some way, this would not matter. if it's a spot on clone, this may be something to consider.
even small improvements (ie. true bypass, 9v adapter in, better pots/switch) may be enough of a selling point to players...
regardless - there would def. be interest. just look on ebay for an old Rat & you'll see how many guys are hip to the 308 / pre led / not a reissue / etc. in their listings.
best.
fwiw - isn't hard to compete w. the 'vintage' market when your clone pedal will be at approx the same price point?
if yours was going to be different, unique, or better in some way, this would not matter. if it's a spot on clone, this may be something to consider.
even small improvements (ie. true bypass, 9v adapter in, better pots/switch) may be enough of a selling point to players...
regardless - there would def. be interest. just look on ebay for an old Rat & you'll see how many guys are hip to the 308 / pre led / not a reissue / etc. in their listings.
best.
I should probably clarify that when I say clone I am only referring to the original circuit specs with the LM308N and tighter tolerance components. It would be in a different enclosure with LED indicator, true bypass switching, 2.1mm power adapter, Alpha pots and Switchcraft jacks. Below is a picture of a rough mock-up I made to test control placement before sending artwork to the screen printer.
http://www.rwseffects.com/images/Willard_1.jpg
I agree with Al re the small updates
if possible, would it fit into a smaller enclosure to take up less real estate on the board?
deluxemeat
12-06-2008, 05:05 PM
i love the idea (and would more than likely buy one as i'm tired of the crap that comes w/ the vintage market AND the booteek clone of a clone of a clone) but wouldn't it be more appropriate to call it "ben"?
besides ben would look cool in the old rat font.
all opinions aside- do it!
Didn't Flock Of Seagulls use one for "I Ran?"
hacker
12-06-2008, 08:48 PM
Rats seem to be the flavor of the month. I have read several threads here that extol the virtues of the original ProCo Rat. In fact, I have probably authored a few posts myself. I know there are many that say that the original large box Rats blow the others away. That is simply not true. I have played and owned many Rats, including the original large box (rescued from a pawn shop for $75 in '05), several Rat IIs (I still have one, bought for $25 in '98) and a "whiteface," which is supposed to be the most similar to the original large box. I just played a vintage reissue for about 45 minutes in a local store last week.
IMO, the Rat IIs and the large box Vintage reissue sound 99% as good as the originals I've played and heard over the years. The originals are marginally smoother. I like the Rat IIs the best, with the LED. They are virtually indestuctible and can be found for very reasonable prices. They are true-bypass and just perfect the way they are.
My question is, do we really need a boutique copy of the original for $150 when there are so many RATs out there already? And, are you planning on giving any royalties to ProCo? Remember the Rat was developed by a single builder in his basement in the 1970s.
No offense intended here, but why not try to invent your own unique pedal? I always wanted to design my own guitar-if and when I do, it sure as hell isn't going to look or sound like a strat or a les paul.
i love the idea (and would more than likely buy one as i'm tired of the crap that comes w/ the vintage market AND the booteek clone of a clone of a clone) but wouldn't it be more appropriate to call it "ben"?
besides ben would look cool in the old rat font.
all opinions aside- do it!
For some reason I like the ring that Willard has, but it is true "Ben" would look cool in the old font. The basis for the name was actually suggested by another equipment builder when I was getting their opinion on the sound of a prototype. Either way, Willard or Ben, I think the name would give just enough of a hint at the heritage.
Guitar Josh
12-06-2008, 09:59 PM
The Rat is a classic circuit that not many builders are doing right now
Not quite:
Lovekraft Chupacabra
Landgraff MOD
Freakshow Brown Rabbit
Retrosonic Distortion
Hartman LM308
I'm sure there's more but those are the ones I thought of in about a minute.
jfromel
12-15-2008, 07:27 PM
Not quite:
Lovekraft Chupacabra
Landgraff MOD
Freakshow Brown Rabbit
Retrosonic Distortion
Hartman LM308
I'm sure there's more but those are the ones I thought of in about a minute.
Are any of these straight up clones value for value? I thought all these with the exception of possibly the Hartman were based on the Rat but not exact clones?
Fifthstone
12-17-2008, 08:55 AM
I think your enclosure looks cool, but I would have preferred to see a box very similar to the original, even down to using similar fonts even if the name itself is different. For me a large part of going for the reissues is a nostalgia factor, and cosmetics are a big part of that. Your price point seems right though.
Nolatone Ampworks
01-12-2009, 06:33 PM
I think your enclosure looks cool, but I would have preferred to see a box very similar to the original, even down to using similar fonts even if the name itself is different. For me a large part of going for the reissues is a nostalgia factor, and cosmetics are a big part of that. Your price point seems right though.
I agree with this. Since there ARE Rat inspired pedals out there and you're going for a bit for bit clone, I think cloning the look will also be beneficial.
imguitardan
01-12-2009, 07:19 PM
Aside from doing a quality "re-issue" of the big box Rat, you should mess with the Filter control to make it more of a tone knob and more versatile. Other than that temperamental filter knob, the Rat's the best distortion ever.
Guitar Josh
01-12-2009, 08:27 PM
Are any of these straight up clones value for value? I thought all these with the exception of possibly the Hartman were based on the Rat but not exact clones?
I'm sorry for the late reply, just saw your response.
Are most of these not exactly what this gentleman is proposing? A circuit clone using high quality parts?
soulsonic
01-13-2009, 01:15 AM
You can swap parts in any standard off-the-shelf Rat and get something the same as an old one. The only thing that's changed is the quality of the parts. Swap the OP07 chip for a 308, swap the electros for tantalums... that's pretty much it.... the values are still identical to what's in the old ones; it's just the material of the parts that's changed.
I'm not trying to be negative, but what's the point of yet another re-tread of the Rat? It's still an in-production unit, and I was under the impression it's not "cool" to clone things that are still being made.
Why don't you just sell modded Rats instead? Just take the new ones and mod them to the "vintage" spec. Seems like much less hassle and much more profit $$$ potential.
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