Satriani suing Coldplay for copyright infringement/plagiarism

[Derwood]

Ever heard of Willie Dixon?...

I have heard of him, but don't know anything about him. Why, did he get sued?

[airwarrior]

No, Zeppelin took a lot of stuff from him without credit.

[Prodigy]

There's an endless list of rock guys who have "borrowed" blues licks note-for-note from the old legends. Freddie King, Chuck Berry, and Muddy Waters etc would all be billionaires if they took these artists to court for plagiarism.

[reeced]

Coldplay's statement on their website is pure gold:

With the greatest possible respect to Joe Satriani, we have now unfortunately found it necessary to respond publicly to his allegations. If there are any similarities between our two pieces of music, they are entirely coincidental, and just as surprising to us as to him. Joe Satriani is a great musician, but he did not write or have any influence on the song Viva La Vida. We respectfully ask him to accept our assurances of this and wish him well with all future endeavours. Coldplay.

----

Sure Chris Martin, since YOU say so, it must be the end of the story.

That has to be the most moronic thing I've ever seen in an attempt to end a legal dispute.

Quotes from interview with Joe Satriani
"I felt like a dagger went right through my heart. It hurt so much," Satriani says. "The second I heard it, I knew it was [my own] If I Could Fly."
......
What makes the situation especially painful for Satriani is that If I Could Fly isn't just any song. It's a composition he'd been laboring over for well over 10 years before he recorded it.

"I started writing it on the Flying In A Blue Dream tour back in 1990. But because of the way I write, sometimes songs take a while, as this one did. In 2003 I started demoing it in earnest. I played it on the acoustic guitar on a demo so I could sing the melody, then I demoed it on electric to get the sound. And the performance turned out to be so spontaneous, so right and so emotional, that it wound up being a keeper."


Since If I Could Fly came out in 2004, Satriani has been gratified by the reaction it's received from his fans, many of whom have called it one of his most captivating songs.
...

"That was the intent all along," he says. "It was a love letter to my wife, Rubina – a simple, direct expression of feeling.

"That's what really hurts about this whole thing. That I spent so long writing the song, thinking about it, loving it, nursing it, and then finally recording it and standing on stages the world over playing it - and then somebody comes along and plays the exact same song and calls it their own."

Moronic ? vs Sad Bleeding Heart ? - Let the jury decide.

(where would we be if the Beatles spent that long "writing", "thinking", "loving", "nursing" every one of their songs ?)

[drod2045]

i think both sides are bogus. it took 10 years to write but one shot at recording to do it?

i think creaky boards (the band) has more to b!tch about in this regard than satriani (personally). coldplays song is just like that one in more aspects than jst melody

[Dave Orban]

I also would not be at all surprised to find that particular melody lurking around in some obscure classical composition somewhere...

[Guitar Josh]

What are they supposed to say? "Yah, we did it."?

What kills me is the "take our word for it" part. That's just ridiculous.

[909one]

this is a joke. sorry, but outside of boards like this, nobody gives a sh-t or listens to "Satch".


HAHA! True! I have been playing music for over 20 years and I never listened to a "Satch" record, never understood the fascination. I highly doubt Coldplay listens to Satch, let alone would try to emulate them. After listening to that Satriani/Coldplay Youtube comparision I know I haven't been missing anything in either camp to be honest.
The melody is boring as hell, I don't know why anyone would want any claim on it.
The fact of the matter is that people copy all the time, mostly subconsciously. Music is an aural tradition. Things get stuck in your mind and pop out in different ways. I think at the very most, the band was driving somewhere, the song popped on the radio and the started making fun of it and months later it made it into their song. I doubt they were scouring backcatalogs of cheesy LA pop shred metal for ideas.

[imissmj]

So I've heard two songs today that came out before Satch's that have the same three note melody he's essentially suing for. That doesn't seem to bode well for his case.

And I agree with Dave Orban, sometimes it's better to walk down the path than to fly down it with a futuristic jetpack dipped in glitter,lol...

[Rotten]

So what is a Grammy worth? At worst, the song is a complete rip, at best, it is a rehashed melody that has been done at least two times. I just don't get when the music establishment decides to shower praise on a certain artist. At least Satriani is doing it now so that Coldplay doesn't have to potentially go through their own Milli Vanilli incident.

[Ed Reed]

I'd like to hear what they could do with the Satch Boogie.

[Dave Orban]

...At least Satriani is doing it now so that Coldplay doesn't have to potentially go through their own Milli Vanilli incident.Not even close.

[Sid]

errh... what about the Coldplay hate ?

Everyone has an opinion, and you obviously have yours !

Keep the coldplay hate out as well...stay within the spirit of the thread....

why do fanboys always misinterpret....??:dunno

i didnt read all the posts...but i thought the satch hate was very prominent...I am a fan of both bands....

[Sid]

Simple melody, easily repeatable without copying it.
HUGE pop band steals obscure (to the pop world) guitarists riff?
I say Joe will drop the suit or be embarrassed. The Coldplay guys are probably laughing...Joe who? Do we seriously think that Coldplay heard that riff, thought OH MY GOD THAT WILL MAKE MILLIONS, LET'S STEAL IT!? I seriously doubt there are many fans of both musicians.

On a related subject, whatever happened to "quoting" someone's music being a form of musical flattery? Woreked for all of the old blues and rock n'roll guys.

Our society has become petty and litigious and just after a buck...don't worry, someone will bail out Coldplay.


Again...it is a known fact that Chris Martin is a fan of Joe Satriani and has been spotted at many concerts....there have been interviews with Satch saying how happy he was when a fellow musician like Chris Martin was in the crowd

[Sid]

HAHA! True! I have been playing music for over 20 years and I never listened to a "Satch" record, never understood the fascination. I highly doubt Coldplay listens to Satch, let alone would try to emulate them. After listening to that Satriani/Coldplay Youtube comparision I know I haven't been missing anything in either camp to be honest.
The melody is boring as hell, I don't know why anyone would want any claim on it.
The fact of the matter is that people copy all the time, mostly subconsciously. Music is an aural tradition. Things get stuck in your mind and pop out in different ways. I think at the very most, the band was driving somewhere, the song popped on the radio and the started making fun of it and months later it made it into their song. I doubt they were scouring backcatalogs of cheesy LA pop shred metal for ideas.

Completely disagree...when Satch came to India, there were thousands lined up to see him..from guitarists to young kids to couples....have a look at his India concert....so many people singing his songs note to note LOUDER than the band...

[Prodigy]

Completely disagree...when Satch came to India, there were thousands lined up to see him..from guitarists to young kids to couples....have a look at his India concert....so many people singing his songs note to note LOUDER than the band...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIYrH_4lk4Q

30,000 people in Poland. Jeff C underestimates the actual number at the beginning of the vid. Surfing With The Alien was the first instrumental album to crack the top 40 charts. You don't score gold and platinum DVD and album sales being a nobody...not to mention all the signature gear and world tours for the past 20 years or so.

[Sid]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIYrH_4lk4Q

30,000 people in Poland. Jeff C underestimates the actual number at the beginning of the vid. Surfing With The Alien was the first instrumental album to crack the top 40 charts. You don't score gold and platinum DVD and album sales being a nobody...not to mention all the signature gear and world tours for the past 20 years or so.

Thats pretty cool

[reeced]

Keep the coldplay hate out as well...stay within the spirit of the thread....

why do fanboys always misinterpret....??:dunno

i didnt read all the posts...but i thought the satch hate was very prominent...I am a fan of both bands....

You claim a Satch-hate bias, yet didn't read all the posts - hardly a balanced view !
I did read all the posts - btw what's a fanboy ? - are you one ?

[Jon Silberman]

This is a fanboy, you numbskulls!

http://www.dreamstime.com/boy-with-fan-thumb5571762.jpg

[muddy]

either way, it ain't exactly a huge departure from the format. given time, i'm sure someone'll recognize that chord & melody in a prior song or piece from the 80's (maybe howard jones?), the 70's, or 60's. rock/pop was built on plagiarising itself. the originals are far & few between, & BOTH satch & cp do NOT fall into that category, not by any stretch of the imagination. also, i've heard satch do the sour grapes routine before, when ice cube released his album with the rock band he put together in the early 90's. bodybag, was that the name? i forget.


ml

[tedzepplin]

Come on guys. There is the option of private messages so we all don't have to read your nonsense.

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/4410/crybaby1xe5.jpghttp://img244.imageshack.us/img244/9999/crybaby2ip7.jpg

[franksguitar]

The matter is moot point. Courts will decide the fate of plagiarism issues regardless if like or dislike either artist. This could determine significant royalties where musicians make their living inspite of illegal downloads and such other issues that take away earnings of writers. I'm sure Coldplay make sigificantly more money and sure is the reason for the Satriani formed new supergroup to increase earnings potential.

[Soul Driver]

when ice cube released his album with the rock band he put together in the early 90's. bodybag, was that the name? i forget.


Do you mean Ice T and Body Count?

[909one]

Completely disagree...when Satch came to India, there were thousands lined up to see him..from guitarists to young kids to couples....have a look at his India concert....so many people singing his songs note to note LOUDER than the band...

That makes sense actually. Tastes vary so widely around the world.
I played in a band a few years back that toured Europe a few times. We sold out shows there, played multiple encores, were signing autographs. In the states we'd have been lucky to get 50 people to show up. It was weird.

[tedzepplin]

It looks like all the comparison videos have been pulled off youtube.

[Luke]

Harmonic analysis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEGGFJLpbu4

[Jeff Michael]

You mean IVmaj7-V-I-vi.

If you're hearing that first chord as a IV you're obviously not a bass player!

We are talking about the chorus section of the Satch track, right?

JAM

[Jeff Michael]

Harmonic analysis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEGGFJLpbu4

Meh, I don't care for the guy cramming these tunes into minor keys. They sound major to me (granted ending the phrase on vi). I do like how he explains the essential functional equivalence of the IV and ii chords.

But I also instinctively distrust anybody who uses Roman numeral analysis without using lowercase for minor chords and uppercase for major.

And yet on the third hand--I like his accent. I feel like I'm watching curling in the 2006 Winter Olympics again.

JAM

[Bottle_Rocket]

I have not read this whole post but you cannot copyright rhythm or a chord progression otherwise Chuck Berry would be the richest guy in music.

What is able to be copyrighted is melody and lyrics. Obviously lyrics are not an issue here. Melody on the other hand is very much able to be copyrightable ( is that a real word?).

As I understand it, and correct me if I am wrong it must be at least 8 bars of melody. The chorus in both tunes are 8 bars and pretty much the same.

Looks like Joe has a case even though it mat not be intentional in Cold Plays case.

Similat to George Harrison's My Sweet Lord. In that case there was more than just the melody. The arrangement was way similar too.

George lost the case but it was noted that it was not intentional.
Just a tune stuck in his mind that came out.

[Michael T]

I am not sure if this has been posted but here is a good analysis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEGGFJLpbu4

[tedzepplin]

I have not read this whole post but you cannot copyright rhythm or a chord progression otherwise Chuck Berry would be the richest guy in music.

What is able to be copyrighted is melody and lyrics. Obviously lyrics are not an issue here. Melody on the other hand is very much able to be copyrightable ( is that a real word?).

As I understand it, and correct me if I am wrong it must be at least 8 bars of melody. The chorus in both tunes are 8 bars and pretty much the same.


Are you an attorney who works with copyright infringement cases? I'm just wondering because some of the things you say sound similar to other misinformation I've heard and I've never heard of an attorney supporting these types of claims. I'm not trying to start a fight. I'm just curious because so many musicians talk about so many different "rules" of copyright. I just wonder what these claims are based on or if they are just incorrect things that get passed around so much some people begin to believe them. Some of the claims sound beliveable in certain situations but then seem horribly inaccurate in others. see below.

Thanks for explaining in detail.

In addition to the 7 note rule, I've had other musicians tell me such things like:

"A chord progression cannot be be given copyright protection. Only words and melody can."

This comes from the mouths of musicians who have been in bands with me and they wanted to assume ownership of my songs for use in their next band.

This argument makes no sense to me because then what happens when one person writes the music and another writes the words and singing melody. Under this thinking only one writer would have ownership.

Next in trying to understand this way of thinking is what is the definition of melody? Do only the notes of the singing determine the melody? If that is the case, then we can freely copy the guitar riff from the Beatles song Day Tripper because it's not part of the words or melody.

We are also then free to copy just about any Ramones songs because their music is almost all chord progressions with words and singing melody and drum beats. They didn't write fancy music with complicated riffs like Day Tripper.

Can you please address/explain this?

I think what nkjanssen wrote below makes sense.

Generally, there are three requirements to prove infringement: (1) the allegedly infringing work must be copied from an original work, (2) the reproduction must be "substantial" and (3) it must be unauthorized. If we assume #3 and also assume that Joe's song is an original work, we're left with the two issues most likely to be contentious:

1. Whether the coldplay song is a *COPY* of Joe's song (as opposed to being created independently).

2. Whether Coldplay copied a *SUBSTANTIAL* part of the song.

People often get confused about the first issue. It is true that you can copy something intentionally or unintentionally (as George Harrison did). Both have the same effect legally. If you copied, you copied. Your intent doesn't matter. BUT if you arrived at a work independently, the degree of similarity doesn't matter. It's not a copy if you didn't COPY. This is where evidence of exposure becomes important. If the Satriani song was very widely known, his case gets stronger. If not, it gets weaker. If you can show, through eye-witness or documentary evidence, that members of Coldplay were big Satriani fans and Chris Martin owned a copy of the Satriani album with that song on it, Joe's case get's stronger. If they say they've never heard that particular song and Joe has no evidence otherwise, his case gets weaker.

The second issue is what you are talking about. I've heard about the "7 note rule" or the "8 note rule". No such rules exist at law. To determine whether a reproduction is "substantial", you look at all relevant factors and weigh them. Experts would be called to analyze the rhythm, the harmony, the melodic movement, etc. The total number of notes copied is relevant but by no means determinitive. The overriding test is whether an average lay observer would recognize an improper appropriation. That could happen with far fewer than 8 notes. Or it might take more than 8. The uniqueness or ubiquitousness of the melodic, harmonic and rhythmic elements would also be relevant. There's no hard and fast rule. It's a judgement call.

[FeloniousBishop]

From the My Sweet Lord vs He's So Fine case:


"The Court noted that HSF incorporated two basic musical phrases, which were called "motif A" and "motif B". Motif A consisted of four repetitions of the notes "G-E-D" or "sol-mi- re"; B was "G-A-C-A-C" or "sol-la-do-la-do", and in the second use of motif B, a grace note was inserted after the second A, making the phrase "sol-la-do-la-re-do". The experts for each party agreed that this was a highly unusual pattern.

Harrison's own expert testified that although the individual motifs were common enough to be in the public domain, the combination here was so unique that he had never come across another piece of music that used this particular sequence, and certainly not one that inserted a grace note as described above.

Harrison's composition used the same motif A four times, which was then followed by motif B, but only three times, not four. Instead of a fourth repetition of motif B, there was a transitional phrase of the same approximate length. The original composition as performed by Billy Preston also contained the grace note after the second repetition of the line in motif B, but Harrison's version did not have this grace note.

Harrison's experts could not contest the basic findings of the Court, but did attempt to point out differences in the two songs. However, the judge found that while there may have been modest alterations to accommodate different words with a different number of syllables, the essential musical piece was not changed significantly. The experts also pointed out that Harrison's version of MSL omitted the grace note, but the judge ruled that this minor change did not change the genesis of the song as that which previously occurred in HSF.

With all the evidence pointing out the similarities between the two songs, the judge said it was "perfectly obvious . . . the two songs are virtually identical". The judge was convinced that neither Harrison nor Preston consciously set out to appropriate the melody of HSF for their own use, but such was not a defense.
Harrison conceded that he had heard HSF prior to writing MSL, and therefore, his subconscious knew the combination of sounds he put to the words of MSL would work, because they had already done so. Terming what occurred as subconscious plagiarism, the judge found that the case should be re-set for a trial on the issue of damages."

http://abbeyrd.best.vwh.net/mysweet.htm

[tedzepplin]

Just had to revive this after seeing Chickenfoot on Conan. I'm wondering if Ryan Adams is going to sue Satch now...

Huh? it looks like someone took this and put it in a square box rather than a circle.
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/4769/peacesignmagnet9685.jpg

[Jazzydave]

:D:D:D

Coldplay's Chris Martin: 'I ripped off Jeff Buckley'


Coldplay's Chris Martin has admitted that the band's 2000 single "Shiver" was essentially a Jeff Buckley ripoff.



The star was speaking on the Chris Moyles Show on BBC Radio 1 today (December 18) when he made the admission.




http://news.yahoo.com/s/launch/20081218/en_launch/61930006;_ylt=AhJd6IjZaFaR8VfTKJKAWlyVEhkF

I just watched the VH1 Storytellers with Coldplay (they have Storytellers streaming online now if you all didn't know!) and Chris and other members of the band say they're not ashamed of ripping off other bands.

They say that the only difference between them and other bands is that they admit it.

It all depends on the music you listen to I think - take John Mayer, I know people will fight this nearly to the death, but I hear so many similarities between whatever he's into at the time and DIRECT relations to classic songs. The same goes for many "pop" groups. Its brilliant actually bc they take what gets your attention from a song and then exploit it.

The only thing original about music these days is presenting what someone else has written and being yourself.

[PTS]

I think Coldplay maybe have ripped off people they actually listen to. Sorry, Satch lovers, but I can't imagine the boys popping in Joe's CD and getting inspired. Instrumental shred metal is a very niche market.

[SGNick]

I think Coldplay maybe have ripped off people they actually listen to. Sorry, Satch lovers, but I can't imagine the boys popping in Joe's CD and getting inspired. Instrumental shred metal is a very niche market.

As mentioned previously in the thread, the Coldplay boys have been spotted at Satch concerts. I'd assume they didn't go for no reason.

[Brian Maestro]

Huh? it looks like someone took this and put it in a square box rather than a circle.
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/4769/peacesignmagnet9685.jpg


The Chickenfoot in the database world is the symbol for a "many" relationship, as in "many to many" or "one to many".

[FeloniousBishop]

As mentioned previously in the thread, the Coldplay boys have been spotted at Satch concerts. I'd assume they didn't go for no reason.

Highly doubtful

[SGNick]

Highly doubtful


Because.... ?

[seiko]

Because.... ?

Is there photographic evidence of them being at shows, I'd doubt it otherwise.

My reasoning:

I'm roughly the same age as the people in Coldplay, also from the UK and probably from a similar college-alternative kind of background. I'd never heard a single Satch track til I moved to the U.S., just the name.

He didn't have any kind of hits really in the U.K, and that style of music was painfully unhip amongst the sort of crowd I was in. You didn't hear on the radio either and MTV didn't really hit til they were already moving away from a video format.

They're far more likely to have grown up on REM, The Smiths, Ride, Dinosaur Jnr and the Pixies, stuff like that.

[SGNick]

Ok, but you're eliminating the fact that he lives in California! Do you also live in California?

Just because it's popular doesn't mean it's fact. In my demographic, there are maybe 2% of us who are Beatles fans, That doesn't mean I don't own everything they've ever released (officially, and unofficially).

Let's just say, if I was a millionaire in California, with virtually no actual job, I would go to every show that stopped by, no matter what/who they were.

I guess the fact that satch has ANY fans is anomalous, yet he's got plenty!

[chemical69]

I'm a Satch fan and even I find it hard to believe Coldplay are into his music. I mean, seriously, only guitar players are aware of Satch and his music is so far off from Coldplay's.

That said, I read in an interview where the lead singer of Coldplay (Chris Martin) said something that he thought Joe Satriani should comment on. It seemed like a diss but I don't recall exactly. I was surprised he knew who Satch was.

Even if they did steal his song, I doubt they go to his shows...

[dverna]

I think Coldplay maybe have ripped off people they actually listen to. Sorry, Satch lovers, but I can't imagine the boys popping in Joe's CD and getting inspired. Instrumental shred metal is a very niche market.

Agreed.

and thank God it is.

[FeloniousBishop]

Because.... ?

You stated as fact that Coldplay have been spotted at Satch concerts, and implied it had been established already in the thread.

It's just speculative B.S. until proven and if I recall correctly the only time it was already mentioned in the thread is when someone wrote something like "supposedly seen at a Satriani concert."

If you make a claim like this it is on you to prove it otherwise you just pollute the discussion.

As to why it's unlikely I agree with the other posts in reply to you on this.

[seiko]

Ok, but you're eliminating the fact that he lives in California! Do you also live in California?

Just because it's popular doesn't mean it's fact. In my demographic, there are maybe 2% of us who are Beatles fans, That doesn't mean I don't own everything they've ever released (officially, and unofficially).

Let's just say, if I was a millionaire in California, with virtually no actual job, I would go to every show that stopped by, no matter what/who they were.

I guess the fact that satch has ANY fans is anomalous, yet he's got plenty!

Woah, hold on, that's quite a leap. Are you suggesting that the lead singer of Coldplay went to one of Satch's shows, heard the song, remembered it well enough to either transcibe part of the part of the melody for the rest of the band or buy the track and rip it off. Seems unlikely.

And even my limited exposure to the music biz suggests to me that the idea that Chris Martin has lots of free, idle time to check out shows coming through town is also unlikely.

[SGNick]

Well, I still remember a song called "Christmas Rock" I heard a 9th grade orchestra play about 8 years ago, so anything is possible.

Didn't Harrison "write" My Sweet Lord on another melody without noticing?