INTERMEDIATE player wanting to get GOOD!

[orangewizard]

By my own assessment,I'd say that I'm a very MEDIOCRE guitarist,and am really beginning to get to where I want to make the instrument 'talk'! I can do some semi-impressive stuff,but want to at least begin the journey towards truly 'mastering' the thing. I know about Tomo,and I also know that one of my guitar heroes,EJ has some stuff out there.FOR NOW,what ONE dvd,or book would you recommend to get me going on this quest?

My playing styles are primarily classic,alternative,and prog-rock...and my top 3 players are Gilmour,Lifeson,and EJ if that helps give y'all some idea.

Thanks~ :dude

[eBay]

Andy Aledort's Axis: Bold as Love will get you into some classic Hendrix that has a lot of feel and nuance.

Other than that, consider a really good instructor. They can really expedite things.

[stevel]

By my own assessment,I'd say that I'm a very MEDIOCRE guitarist,and am really beginning to get to where I want to make the instrument 'talk'! I can do some semi-impressive stuff,but want to at least begin the journey towards truly 'mastering' the thing. I know about Tomo,and I also know that one of my guitar heroes,EJ has some stuff out there.FOR NOW,what ONE dvd,or book would you recommend to get me going on this quest?

My playing styles are primarily classic,alternative,and prog-rock...and my top 3 players are Gilmour,Lifeson,and EJ if that helps give y'all some idea.

Thanks~ :dude

Do you want to master *guitar* or *one style of guitar playing*.

If you truly want to master the instrument, you should study Classical, Jazz, Bluegrass, Folk (and it's many alternate tunings), Slide, etc. etc. etc.

Acoustic, Electric, Classical, Acoustic-Electric, Electro-Acoustic.

Gilmour is one of my faves, and gets my vote for "tastiest guitarist ever". But a mediocre jazz guitarist will make Gilmour look like a novice (the tastiest novice ever, but a novice nonetheless).

So, influences from other styles (even if you don't master those particular styles necessarily) can certainly assist in your pursuit to improve your playing.

And do you want to be a *guitarist* or, a *musician* :-) That's a whole 'nother story.

I second the second poster's idea - a good instructor can really expedite things. Additionally, playing with as many people as you can is a good idea.

I actually learned a lot from giving lessons. When I taught, I learned how to communicate ideas much better, which IMHO, makes me "better" than I was before.

HTH,
Steve

[arthur rotfeld]

Get a transcription of a Gilmour solo, perhaps from a Guitar One or Guitar World....they've done bunch.

Listen and follow along. Understand the notation, take some notes, make corrections or edits if needed.

Mark out phrases that will be manageable to learn, piece by piece.

Start playing it, consulting the recording often and playing along.

Make efforts to understand the hows and whys of what he's doing.


Hal Leonard has a Play Along book/cd for Dark Side.

[Tag]

By my own assessment,I'd say that I'm a very MEDIOCRE guitarist,and am really beginning to get to where I want to make the instrument 'talk'! I can do some semi-impressive stuff,but want to at least begin the journey towards truly 'mastering' the thing. I know about Tomo,and I also know that one of my guitar heroes,EJ has some stuff out there.FOR NOW,what ONE dvd,or book would you recommend to get me going on this quest?

My playing styles are primarily classic,alternative,and prog-rock...and my top 3 players are Gilmour,Lifeson,and EJ if that helps give y'all some idea.

Thanks~ :dude
get a good teacher and learn some jazz standars and learn to improvise over them. Good luck. I am still trying.

[arthur rotfeld]

I'm a jazz player, but if a student came to me with heroes such as Gilmour, Lifeson and EJ, and I started pushing "All the Things you Are".....my guess is our first lesson would be our last.

[dkaplowitz]

Get a transcription of a Gilmour solo
Be a better student, learn it by ear -- esp. with Gilmour. He wasn't a speed demon. His solos are very good for learning how to transcribe/cop licks from recordings. The reason I mention it is that I think a good ear separates a good/great player from a mediocre/bad one.

[arthur rotfeld]

That's true....

[Thwap]

If you're going to go down the Gilmour road...I have and it helped me a lot with phrasing, and vibrato, I'd agree with listen and pick it off for yourself. There's a ton of nuance involved.

Then go here and get this DVD. It's by jamie Humphries, who did a stint in the Australian Pink floyd, and see how you did with your ear. It not only has the instructional aspect, but comes with pretty decent backing tracks to all the songs....

http://www.licklibrary.com/store/jamie-humphries/11103/learn-to-play-pink-floyd-2-dvd-set

[KRosser]

If you don't already have one, get a band or two and play.

A lot.

[flyngtr]

I'm a jazz player, but if a student came to me with heroes such as Gilmour, Lifeson and EJ, and I started pushing "All the Things you Are".....my guess is our first lesson would be our last.




if you handled all of your students that way on the first day you wouldn't be a teacher any longer

[shane88]

follow ur ears to the sounds u like > say if u like Hendrix then learn about his nuance

there's millions of things that can be done on a guitar and most name players are really good @ a few of them

the idea that u have to know and play everything is the path to mediocraty

[Jazzydave]

All of these are great suggestions but IMHO, getting down to the basics of playing is essential. Learning your modes and patterns and building up hand strength. Also, playing exercises that are unusual will help you move out of the norm.

I practice with a Korg Pandora's Box and its incredible. Just plug in, put some headphones on, choose your tone, and practice to different drum patterns. A lot of players know where the notes are, can fret them, but their timing is horrible.

Spend as much time listening as you do practicing. Shoot me a PM and I'll send some material over to you...

[dkaplowitz]

:rolleyes:

Yeah, finger exercises and modes are way better than being in a band or learning how to pick things up off recordings with your ears. You'll get lots of gigs when you show the bands you are auditioning for your exercises. And you'll write great music with all those patterns.

:D

[Jazzydave]

Hahaha...I love how you all always pick on me! I'm sorry All Great Ones!
:bow

What I'm saying is that if you can't play the basics, you won't get any further with your playing. Its a combination of many different aspects.

I'm always trying to push further, harder, learn more from every aspect available - that's hard to do if my fingers aren't up to it. I was the kid at track practice who when told to run 10 hills, I ran 15. I saw the benefits of this type of self discipline early on and incorporated that into everything else I've done - ESPECIALLY my guitar playing.

It all comes down to what your personal goals as a guitarist are. Yes, playing with people and learning from others is essential but you'll be able to pick up more and faster if you understand how it is done by training your fingers and ears to work together by doing simple exercises. I jam a lot with my favorite players via DVD. I also sit in with bands that aren't in my usual writing genre - like metal or country. It forces me outside of my box.

Anyone who tells you otherwise just doesn't want you to get better than them! Haha! There are a lot of players like that out there! (I'm just pickin' at some of you now, I know most of the TGPers are good hearted dedicated players who are always willing to help someone out) Check out some Steve Morse lessons. I got most of my groundwork and practice regimen from guitarist like him.

:boxer

[rob2001]

I think being a great player goes way beyond technical prowess. It's about conveying emotion. I think DG's gift is that he gets massive impact from each note so speed isn't required. It varies from song to song, but just as chords are emotionally charged, so are individual notes in a pattern. After many years I've found I know what those notes are and use them to paint an emotional landscape. I think of it in simple terms of sad, happy, mad, lost, ironic etc.... There are times when a fast, angry burst of notes work and times when a few simple, sad notes work. I also like to think in elemental terms like breezy, hot, cold, water, sunshine etc... Sounds corny but it works for me.

Gotta go to the stooopid day job.... i'll check in later!

[willhutch]

The longer I play, the more closely music resembles language to me. Acquisition is similar, too. The things you need to master a language are the same things you need to master the musical language:

Phonetics: Children spend years learning to make the sounds of their language. Guitarists must learn to fret notes properly, pick accuratly, use vibrato, intonate correctly, play on time, etc. Developing aural skills (your ear) is a part of this, too. On a musical instrument we call this technique. Slow, steady, long-term practice is the way to get it. Avoiding bad habits is crucial. It's all about "perfect practice".

Grammar: In music, I think of the grammar as music theory. The grammar of music covers such things as scales/modes, chord construction, time signature. This stuff is relatively easy to learn. There's plenty of material on the web. 3 sessions with a teacher can lay out the major scale, intervals, the harmonized major scale, chord construction and the modes.

Vocabulary: To be an effective speaker, you need to know the words and phrases used in a particular language. In guitar terms, this means to know, for example, some blues turnarounds, some common chord progressions, some tunes, etc. This skill is learned the same way we learn language - through listening and repeating.

Literacy: Reading sure makes life better.

Communicativity: Certain people can say a lot in a foreign language without tons of vocab or grammar. Certain musicians are the same way. You ever hear those guys that can play simple blues licks over anything and sound great? Communication is the entire point of language, and maybe, music as well. So this is perhaps the most important of all the things I've noted. Effective musical communication requires a level of mastery of grammar, technique and vocab. Also, I believe there people have innate talent with this. But it can be developed. The ability to play what you sing is a great exercise. Listen to guys like David Gilmore. Tell stories with your music. Play with your heart and mind rather than your fingers. Listen to the band. Hear your playing as the listener would hear it.


You need all of the above to be a really skilled player. To take your playing to the next level, you might consider which of these areas you are weakest in. Develop that. For me, it has always been vocabulary. I was never big on copping licks and playing stylistically correct. In the past several years, I've tried to remedy this and it has been helpful. Being able to play stuff the listener expects makes the unexpected sound cool!

[dkaplowitz]

Hahaha...I love how you all always pick on me! I'm sorry All Great Ones!
:bow
Haha! No, not picking on you. I just respond to things that sound weird (weird in my experience, at least). I think finger exercises are largely a waste of time for a great majority of players a great majority of the time. I also think scales and modes are way overemphasized by guitar players and I think that's so b/c so few guitar players ever get beyond just playing scales and patterns, which many people will admit does not make for very interesting music. I remember the great Joe Diorio asking us early in our year at GIT, "what are you going to play for your mother, a scale?"

Practical playing experience outweighs dexterity in my experience. I came out of GIT with some chops, but when I had to learn the entire repertoire of the band I joined (songs that I in my smugness as a GIT student type had written off as "easy") I was in for a rude awakening about tone and groove and stamina and consistency and stage presence and a bunch of other things I never learned by practicing scales.

2nd to that would be development of your ears and your ability to translate what your ears hear into music on your instrument.

But that's just me.

Dave

[bobcs71]

My experience has been that after learning basics there is no substitute for live performance.

[rslowr]

My experience has been that after learning basics there is no substitute for live performance.

yeah, both -- for me it's knowing some scales/modes/chords/songs, playing them out and finding holes, possibilities, things that almost worked, and then woodshedding a bit, and playing around (right now I'm messing w/ two string triplets all over the neck, low to high, high to low etc.) and then playing out again and finding maybe adding something that may or may not work.

Etc.

I'm playing tonight; gonna see if I can add a little phrygian twist to "Season of the Witch" and still hold the mood and beat. If it works, I may add some more; if it bombs, only the bass guy will notice (he's the best listener). then more fiddling/practicing

think I might check out the Axis dvd too; it gets love around here

oh, btw I'm definitely low intermediate, fwiw

[Prodigy]

Check out this book and CD combo:

http://www.amazon.com/Scale-Chord-Relationships-Guide-Knowing/dp/0634019945/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229546079&sr=8-1

The best part of it is it comes with lots of tracks you can jam over and loop in Itunes. Try playing using the scale shapes at first, and then forget about the fingering and just play freely all over the neck, trying to recreate the sound of the scale without having to think about positional shapes or fingerings. Also, transcribe everything (sax solos, vocalist lines, random melodies you come up with in your head, TV jingles etc). Set aside time every day to jam along to your favourite music. I agree with what was said by others here that jamming with your buds and playing live is 1000 times better than practicing alone, but if you have nobody to jam with at the time, a CD or backing track is the next best thing IMO.

[Yossi]

Check out this book and CD combo:

http://www.amazon.com/Scale-Chord-Relationships-Guide-Knowing/dp/0634019945/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229546079&sr=8-1

The best part of it is it comes with lots of tracks you can jam over and loop in Itunes. Try playing using the scale shapes at first, and then forget about the fingering and just play freely all over the neck, trying to recreate the sound of the scale without having to think about positional shapes or fingerings. Also, transcribe everything (sax solos, vocalist lines, random melodies you come up with in your head, TV jingles etc). Set aside time every day to jam along to your favourite music. I agree with what was said by others here that jamming with your buds and playing live is 1000 times better than practicing alone, but if you have nobody to jam with at the time, a CD or backing track is the next best thing IMO.

Ok, I just purchased it from Amazon. Thanks for the tip

[Gigbag]

Some obvious things already mentioned, but are important:

Master the basics (triads, chords, scales, techniques, etc.)

Learn songs by ear from CDs.

Improvise with backing tracks.

Live performance.

[emjee]

:rolleyes:

Yeah, finger exercises and modes are way better than being in a band or learning how to pick things up off recordings with your ears. You'll get lots of gigs when you show the bands you are auditioning for your exercises. And you'll write great music with all those patterns.

:D


Well, Steve Morse gives relatively the same advice, and he has got lot's of gigs, and been in many good bands. That's pretty condescending to the guy who was just adding to the advice already given. It's pretty lame the first post from this guy in the thread wasnt advice, but to crap on someone. Yeah, pretty lame. I guess these :D make a person feel better about being a jerk to people though.

[Jazzydave]

well, steve morse gives relatively the same advice, and he has got lot's of gigs, and been in many good bands. That's pretty condescending to the guy who was just adding to the advice already given. It's pretty lame the first post from this guy in the thread wasnt advice, but to crap on someone. Yeah, pretty lame. I guess these :d make a person feel better about being a jerk to people though.

+1

:d

[rob2001]

My experience has been that after learning basics there is no substitute for live performance.


Not to disagree with your experience, but i've progressed and learned far more about lead structure and tasty note selection from writing and recording. I gigged in a cover band for 20 years and had my eyes opened when my current band started writing. Then again, I did go through the the live process first. But still, I firmly believe I didn't develop my own style and voice until I started writing my own songs and leads.


It sounds like the OP already has enough skill to join a band if he's not already in one. Taking it to the next level as a player is an individual process. Again, not to disagree, just a different P.O.V.

[dkaplowitz]

Well, Steve Morse gives relatively the same advice, and he has got lot's of gigs, and been in many good bands. That's pretty condescending to the guy who was just adding to the advice already given. It's pretty lame the first post from this guy in the thread wasnt advice, but to crap on someone. Yeah, pretty lame. I guess these :D make a person feel better about being a jerk to people though.
If all Steve Morse did was finger exercises, he wouldn't be where he is now. Dude went to a great college for music, studied classical guitar, knows how to read and compose, probably transcribed his ass off, and likely studied jazz improv, etc. etc. on down the line. You should have more respect for the work he's done than to crassly boil it down to finger exercises. Pretty ill-informed opinion there, Herbie. Talk about a lame first post in a thread where people are trying to help by giving their own personal experiences/opinions about what might help. Shit, you even tried to take Steve Morse's accomplishments as a musician with you on your little misguided tirade. Sad indeed.

Also, I posted something before my reply to JazzyDave in an attempt to add to the thread, but you chose not to see that. That's fine. I expect as much seeing how bitter you are about something (very minor) that happened a few years ago. What was that about anyway? Weren't you crapping in some thread about Frank Zappa and you got mad because I called you out on it? When are you gonna let that go? I understand you're some lonely shut in who doesn't have much to do but to hang on to grudges on Internet boards, but I figure you'd have found better grudges to nurse in the last few years. O well. Keep overreacting to every one of my posts where I don't just nod my head in agreement with everyone. If it works for you, go for it.

[Thwap]

I'm with Dkap on this one.

Quite honestly looking back over the time I've spent woodshedding, if there's one thing I wish I knew then, that I know now is...

working on scales and fingering excercises...while not useless, has been the most unproductive endeavor, in terms of actually improving as a musician, out of all the things I've done.

And for a while there, coupla years, it's damn near all I did everytime I picked up my guitar. I want to kick my own ass.

I totally agree with transcription, variety, build yourself a catalog.

Play music...not excercises...to improve as a musician.

[emjee]

[quote=dkaplowitz;5208235]If all Steve Morse did was finger exercises, he wouldn't be where he is now.

Did anyone SAY to thats all he did? No. But from the start thats exactly what you tried to allude. He NEVER SAID practicing scales and modes would get you "lots of gigs" did he? NO. See, you like to put words in peoples mouths. I dont know if you enjoy it or not, but you have the uncanny ability to piss people off by doing JUST THAT. I've seen it before, you LOVE to shoot your mouth off (I guess in an attempt to be like your idol) and do it with what you think is a "funny" wit, but its really just adolescent sarcasm.


"Dude went to a great college for music, studied classical guitar, knows how to read and compose, probably transcribed his ass off, and likely studied jazz improv, etc. etc. on down the line".

So tell me something I DONT know. AGAIN, NOBODY said THAT IS ALL HE DID. All JD was saying is that practicing scales and modes are important. THATS ALL. and you have to crap on the guys post. So I said somethin about it and now you get all indignant. You're a piece of work.

"You should have more respect for the work he's done than to crassly boil it down to finger exercises."

See what I mean? You take one LITTLE thing and make it sound as though THATS ALL WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. That that's ALL YOU NEED to be a successful guitarist. Well, personally I would put more stock into the opinion of someone like Dave, who is a RECORDING ARTIST.

"Pretty ill-informed opinion there, Herbie. Talk about a lame first post in a thread where people are trying to help by giving their own personal experiences/opinions about what might help. Shit, you even tried to take Steve Morse's accomplishments as a musician with you on your little misguided tirade. Sad indeed."

Man what is your TRIP? Take the chip off your shoulder. All I DID was agree with JazzyDave when he said practicing scales and modes is helpful. He didnt say thats ALL you need. But you just HAVE to make it sound like that. Get off your high horse.


"Also, I posted something before my reply to JazzyDave in an attempt to add to the thread, but you chose not to see that. That's fine. I expect as much seeing how bitter you are about something (very minor) that happened a few years ago. What was that about anyway? Weren't you crapping in some thread about Frank Zappa and you got mad because I called you out on it?"

Ever heard of a thing called "projecting"? Thats where you feel guilty about your OWN shortcomings and then project them onto other people. You might wanna look into it pal, cause you are really paranoid.

[Irreverent]

But a mediocre jazz guitarist will make Gilmour look like a novice (the tastiest novice ever, but a novice nonetheless).


I now feel the need for a "smiley" that shows a bull taking a dump....

[Irreverent]

(P.S. Sorry for the tangential hijack. Now back to your regular thread...)

Lots of great thoughts here. A great teacher is hard to beat for advancing your skills.

[GovernorSilver]

working on scales and fingering excercises...while not useless, has been the most unproductive endeavor, in terms of actually improving as a musician, out of all the things I've done.

I found this to be true for my own musicianship as well.

I found I need a context to make my practice sessions use. For example, practicing a piece of music written in G major (eg. Cello Suite #1 Prelude by JS Bach) is so much more productive than spending the same amount of time practicing as many different fingerings of the G major scale as possible.

[emjee]

I found this to be true for my own musicianship as well.

I found I need a context to make my practice sessions use. For example, practicing a piece of music written in G major (eg. Cello Suite #1 Prelude by JS Bach) is so much more productive than spending the same amount of time practicing as many different fingerings of the G major scale as possible.


But wouldnt you say it does help to at least know a couple different fingerings of the ones you use the most? as I say, I put a lot of stock in Steve Morse, and his second video goes over the different fingerings of scales in detail. It's his opinion that that is a good way to get to know the fretboard forwards and backwards. Also, I have found that learning different fingerings is extremely helpful (especially for beginning and intermediate guitar players) for building finger dexterity, intonation, and positioning. Again, I am in no way saying this is all you need, but I have had many teachers of all skill levels agree that one should have at least have a working knowledge of them, which most experienced guitar players do.

[GovernorSilver]

But wouldnt you say it does help to at least know a couple different fingerings of the ones you use the most?

No I do not find it helpful for my improvisational skills personally, unless I am preparing for a performance of composed music (no improvisation).

I find it more helpful to learn the music first, to the extent I can sing it to myself, then figure out a fingering. I am finding that the more comfortable I get with individual interval jumps (eg. a minor 6th down from one string to the next string over or 2+ strings away - yes, that means skipping), the better my execution gets, because a single note line is just a sequence of intervals strung together.

[Ken Ho]

But wouldnt you say it does help to at least know a couple different fingerings of the ones you use the most? as I say, I put a lot of stock in Steve Morse, and his second video goes over the different fingerings of scales in detail. It's his opinion that that is a good way to get to know the fretboard forwards and backwards. Also, I have found that learning different fingerings is extremely helpful (especially for beginning and intermediate guitar players) for building finger dexterity, intonation, and positioning. Again, I am in no way saying this is all you need, but I have had many teachers of all skill levels agree that one should have at least have a working knowledge of them, which most experienced guitar players do.

Trouble is, unless you are an obsessive/complusive/woodshed hermit, learning those fingerings out of context, they probably won't stick, and you might just bore yourself senseless.
Put them into the context of a piece of music, and everything changes. Easier to learn and remember and you get a piece or repertoire/vocab as well.
It is much easier to transfer a skill learnt in one context into another, than it is to take a skill learnt in isolation form any context and put it into one.

[emjee]

No I do not find it helpful for my improvisational skills personally, unless I am preparing for a performance of composed music (no improvisation).

In the first part of the above statement, you say you do not find "it" helpful (I assume you are referring to my statement of knowing a couple different fingerings for each scale?) for any of your improvisational skills. Then you say UNLESS you are preparing for a performance where NO improvising will be done.

I'm trying hard not to sound confused here, but that sounds contradictory. ALL I AM SAYING is that it is helpful to know more than one way to play a "C" scale! THATS ALL. I'm sure everyone who has disagreed with me here so far knows at least two different ways to play a "C" scale. I truly, do not see why anyone would disagree with that.

[emjee]

Trouble is, unless you are an obsessive/complusive/woodshed hermit, learning those fingerings out of context, they probably won't stick, and you might just bore yourself senseless.
Put them into the context of a piece of music, and everything changes. Easier to learn and remember and you get a piece or repertoire/vocab as well.
It is much easier to transfer a skill learnt in one context into another, than it is to take a skill learnt in isolation form any context and put it into one.

And what "Fingerings" are we talking about?? All I was basically saying is that it is helpful to know more than one way to play a major scale. Thats really ALL I was trying to add to the discussion. Again, I truly do NOT see why anyone would disagree with that, especially considering you probably DO know more than one way to play a C major scale..
If so, you dont think that knowledge has ever served you in ANY situation?

[Thwap]

And what "Fingerings" are we talking about?? All I was basically saying is that it is helpful to know more than one way to play a major scale. Thats really ALL I was trying to add to the discussion. Again, I truly do NOT see why anyone would disagree with that, especially considering you probably DO know more than one way to play a C major scale..
If so, you dont think that knowledge has ever served you in ANY situation?

Honestly, the stuff that has stuck with me, doesn't come that way, I don't/can't think that way when I'm playing music. I can when I'm playing scales though.

When I'm playing/jamming/improvising, I'm hearing the chord structure, and I've learned, from playing with others, or to backing tracks, the areas I should be in, and I've got patterns and licks within these "areas" that I utilize.

So I try to spend more time working on fresh licks, and phrases in positions with chordal accompaniment. It has served me much better than figuring out extensions of the scale all over the board.

I'm not saying that's useless...I'm saying that personally, it retarded my growth bigtime when I made it my focus.

[Ken Ho]

And what "Fingerings" are we talking about?? All I was basically saying is that it is helpful to know more than one way to play a major scale. Thats really ALL I was trying to add to the discussion. Again, I truly do NOT see why anyone would disagree with that, especially considering you probably DO know more than one way to play a C major scale..
If so, you dont think that knowledge has ever served you in ANY situation?

I'm not really disagreeeing with you, and you don't need to be defensive with me, cos I'm not the one who's been biting you.
I was merely agreeing with the idea that learning that stuff in the context of music rather than in the isolation of an exercise is a better way.
I don't have an exhaustive scale knowledge, but I have a reasonable repertoire. I admit that whenever I have tried to just shed scales, I last about 5 mins, then quit. I used to see that as a failing, but now I don't. I realise that is just the nature of the beast for me.
Peace and Merry Solstice

[GovernorSilver]

In the first part of the above statement, you say you do not find "it" helpful (I assume you are referring to my statement of knowing a couple different fingerings for each scale?) for any of your improvisational skills. Then you say UNLESS you are preparing for a performance where NO improvising will be done.

I'm trying hard not to sound confused here, but that sounds contradictory. ALL I AM SAYING is that it is helpful to know more than one way to play a "C" scale! THATS ALL. I'm sure everyone who has disagreed with me here so far knows at least two different ways to play a "C" scale. I truly, do not see why anyone would disagree with that.

First, please understand, I merely describe my own experiences and was agreeing with someone else who had similar observations to mine. If you look at my first post on this thread, it was a response to someone else, not an attack on you.

When I am preparing for church orchestra, I will try a couple of alternate fingerings for the music I am preparing to play at the beginning, then settle on the ONE fingering I will use for the service, with fingering numbers written down on my viola part. I almost never improvise in orchestra. Its just like learning your part in the script for a play. Get your part down pat, then execute during showtime - no messing around with your part then, or the director's gonna give you the hook.

When I improvise, I will create a fingering for my ideas once, and throw it away once I am done, with no intention of preserving it. My goal is to improvise what I hear in my head. That is MY artistic goal. Do not take it personally if it is radically different from YOURS. I create the line in my head, I figure out how to play it, then I'm done.

I did the "learn 50 fingerings for C major scale" thing once upon a time. My solos turned out to be driven by my hands instead of my imagination. Just wasn't what I wanted.

Do what works for you. It's all good, man! :phones

[GovernorSilver]

But wouldnt you say it does help to at least know a couple different fingerings of the ones you use the most?

Ah, I understand your confusion with my posts now. We never did establish exactly what you meant by "ones you use". You talkin' about scales, arpeggios, or something else?

[johnw]

Keep it simple! For depth and theory go to Frank Gambale. He is a "fusion" player, but anything any of those players you mentioned he can do--backwards. He is the master of sweep picking.

For "shred" go to Paul Gilbert.

You cannot go wrong with these two guys. Both are mucho au courant. Gilbert is an experienced teacher, and Gambale more so. See them both on youtube, where there are various lessons by both. Then buy DVDs of their lessons. You will move ahead fast--but dont try to "be good". Dont try to be more than mediocre. Forget all that. Just be a student of the guitar. Learn a new riff at a time, and put it in a musical context you enjoy playing. Do drills. Apply them in music you already play.

Never expect to get better with the instument in your hands. Improvement happens more when you are not playing, as an "adaptation" to the "Stress"--a pleasurable stress, hopefully--that you place on yourself. Try to play material above youre level, but not too much above. Up the ante as you adapt to it, that is, as you nail it. Like magic you will improve, even, I kid you not, as you sleep.

[emjee]

I'm not really disagreeeing with you, and you don't need to be defensive with me, cos I'm not the one who's been biting you.
I was merely agreeing with the idea that learning that stuff in the context of music rather than in the isolation of an exercise is a better way.
I don't have an exhaustive scale knowledge, but I have a reasonable repertoire. I admit that whenever I have tried to just shed scales, I last about 5 mins, then quit. I used to see that as a failing, but now I don't. I realise that is just the nature of the beast for me.
Peace and Merry Solstice

Merry Christmas to you too man.How is it defensive to ask what fingerings you were talking about? Also how did you get the impression that I thought it was you that was "biting" me? Whatever man, no big deal.

[emjee]

Keep it simple! For depth and theory go to Frank Gambale. He is a "fusion" player, but anything any of those players you mentioned he can do--backwards. He is the master of sweep picking.

For "shred" go to Paul Gilbert.

You cannot go wrong with these two guys. Both are mucho au courant. Gilbert is an experienced teacher, and Gambale more so. See them both on youtube, where there are various lessons by both. Then buy DVDs of their lessons. You will move ahead fast--but dont try to "be good". Dont try to be more than mediocre. Forget all that. Just be a student of the guitar. Learn a new riff at a time, and put it in a musical context you enjoy playing. Do drills. Apply them in music you already play.

Never expect to get better with the instument in your hands. Improvement happens more when you are not playing, as an "adaptation" to the "Stress"--a pleasurable stress, hopefully--that you place on yourself. Try to play material above youre level, but not too much above. Up the ante as you adapt to it, that is, as you nail it. Like magic you will improve, even, I kid you not, as you sleep.

Thanks for the info John. Even though I'm not the OP I still can appreciate what your sayin'.

[GovernorSilver]

Improvement happens more when you are not playing, as an "adaptation" to the "Stress"--a pleasurable stress, hopefully--that you place on yourself. Try to play material above youre level, but not too much above. Up the ante as you adapt to it, that is, as you nail it. Like magic you will improve, even, I kid you not, as you sleep.

I've read similar stuff in studies from exercise/sports science. The brain needs time to absorb the new info you're feeding it. Once it's done, you notice a jump in your skills, even coming off a vacation for a couple of weeks without the guitar.

[Ang3lus]

What i can offer you and what gave me the biggest boost in playing was Tom Hess' Teaching, I just joined 2 weeks ago and alot of stuff are much clearer now (modes/picking techniques/improving speed/HOW TO PRACTICE).

you can read his articles on www.tomhess.net and see for yourself
I'm taking the corrospodence lessons and also joined the MCMP.

HIGHLY recommended.