Will Line 6 have an answer to the Axe Fx?

[stratton]

Maybe it seems like a loaded question, or a foregone conclusion, but the Axe FX seems to be clearly postioned at the top of the heap in amp modelling technology.

When I listen to Line 6s newest X3 offerings, it still has the famous, or infamous, Line 6 sound and while it may offer additional features, to my ears it's really just more of the same. Not a slam, I still use my XT Live for recording.

However AxeFx seems to be "next generation" and I'm wondering how or if the others, including Line 6, are going to repond.

[powermatt99]

No.

I don't see them getting into a largely unexplored market when the markets they are in are making them loads of revenue.

(Hopefully this thread will not digress into Line6 bashing.)

[bkd_guitarist]

No.

I don't see them getting into a largely unexplored market when the markets they are in are making them loads of revenue.

I agree with that. I think we have a bit of a skewed perspective on TGP - we forget that the majority of the gear-buying public is content with halfway decent tone from cheap gear. Line 6 is selling piles of gear to the Guitar Center / Harmony Central crowd. New product development is extremely expensive - much more so at the high end - and I don't see them investing those dollars to steal a few high-end modeler sales from Fractal.

[stratzrus]

One impediment is that the Axe FX uses significantly more expensive parts than Line 6. I'm not so sure they're interested in exploring the smaller, high end segment of the market.

Even if they were interested, they don't have Cliff's algorithms so they would have a way to go in order to even begin to close the gap.

While I don't have the numbers, I doubt that Axe FX sales have put a big dent in Line 6's revenue stream...they're making much more money selling in volume to the sub $600 market.

[Jarrett]

I agree with that. I think we have a bit of a skewed perspective on TGP - we forget that the majority of the gear-buying public is content with halfway decent tone from cheap gear. Line 6 is selling piles of gear to the Guitar Center / Harmony Central crowd. New product development is extremely expensive - much more so at the high end - and I don't see them investing those dollars to steal a few high-end modeler sales from Fractal.

That's it right there. The money is in the "cheap/decent" tones.

I don't think they will even try to compete.

[Will Chen]

I'm not a big lover of Line 6's particular flavor of modeling. However, Line 6 sells a bunch a gear and the POD and Amp farm have been used a ton of recordings. Why fix it if it ain't broke?

If anyone will try to compete with the Axe-FX head to head, I would put my money on Digitech.

[Julia343]

No.

My prediction is: Line 6 will come out with the Spider Valve II, and Vetta III. These will incorporate the updated tech of the X3 Pro with a better amp power section. Meanwhile when those come out they'll be shortly thereafter coming out with the POD X4.

Fractal's stuff is very specialized high end stuff for recording studios and rich people. Fractal will in 18 months outdate their own AxeFX Ultra with something far superior, and will license the outdated tech to someone to produce and actually take business away from the middle end modellers.

That company will be Digitech. ;)

[traviswalk]

Their answer is "damn, wish we could do that..."

[mtmartin71]

Agree with previous posts...nothing is pushing them to make the change. It's sad, but quality of the sound is not driving their market. Line6 is a study in superior marketing and business innovation. They actually had product innovation early on and essentially created the digital modeling market and since the PODxt many years ago, they haven't engineered anything truly new. What they have done is repackage and remarket the sh!t out of the xt technology with incredible results. They been calling the POD the "industry standard" and so it is to the masses. It's kind of like Bose and their marketing machine. Having said that, I own the Toneport and it works for me to get sounds down. I would also say that Line6, like Apple, has figured out the SW/HW integration piece and is light years ahead of Fractal, Digitech and others on the SW side. That is where the AxeFx really falls down in my opinion. It's SW tools and compatibility are woeful.

You have to think though that Line6 could build a better POD"xx" Pro to match up with AxeFX. It's going to take a new generation of Firmware and computing to do it, but Fractal's costs are inherently higher producing an electronic item in the US. Line6 already has an offshore model so if they could improve their modeling, it's not that far off to think they could finally have that answer at a better price point.

[ib2010]

The line 6 boys aren't exactly widget manufacturers ; I think it would be a mistake to under estimate their creative drive, they've done quite well in a field that was once ( and still by some ) considered herecy.

[Scott Peterson]

Line 6, IMHO, sees the top end of the market as too small of a market segment for them to pursue; they let the Vetta die a slow death because they focused on the lower end and middle market.

The R&D cost to catch and pass Fractal won't net them the ROI they'd need to see on the R&D investment.

IMHO.

[bkd_guitarist]

You have to think though that Line6 could build a better POD"xx" Pro to match up with AxeFX. It's going to take a new generation of Firmware and computing to do it, but Fractal's costs are inherently higher producing an electronic item in the US. Line6 already has an offshore model so if they could improve their modeling, it's not that far off to think they could finally have that answer at a better price point.

In order to woo the crowd that would otherwise buy an Axe-FX, Line 6 would have to come out with something much better than the Axe-FX, in order to overcome the stigma that the Pod products carry with the high-end consumer base. You nailed it when you said it would take a new generation of computing and firmware. The problem is that it's a massively expensive, time-consuming proposition to create that new generation, and their offshore model won't help them much for two reasons:

1) offshore wages are rising so rapidly it's becoming less cost-effective, and
2) a lot of this type of product development work has to be conducted on the ground, working with users and getting their input, WHERE THEY LIVE - in places like the US and Europe. The product marketers take a prototype, let a guitar player mess with it, take his feedback to the developers, who tweak the software, give an updated prototype to the marketer, and it starts all over again. They go through many cycles like this, and each one takes lots of time and money.

This would be an extremely expensive undertaking for any company, and it's even more so at the upper end of the market because the R&D cost is amortized across a small number of units. How many Axe-FX's have been sold? Maybe a thousand? Line 6 probably sells that many Pods in a decent month. The R&D cost of the Pod X3 was paid off long ago.

They have a profit margin they expect to make, and for all those reasons, they will have a very hard time making it in the miniscule high-end modeler market. I don't see this as viable for them in the forseeable future.

[Ed DeGenaro]

Line 6, IMHO, sees the top end of the market as too small of a market segment for them to pursue; they let the Vetta die a slow death because they focused on the lower end and middle market.

The R&D cost to catch and pass Fractal won't net them the ROI they'd need to see on the R&D investment.

IMHO.
Hmmmm....I so doubt you're right with this. Time will tell...

[Ed DeGenaro]

In order to woo the crowd that would otherwise buy an Axe-FX, Line 6 would have to come out with something much better than the Axe-FX, in order to overcome the stigma that the Pod products carry with the high-end consumer base. You nailed it when you said it would take a new generation of computing and firmware. The problem is that it's a massively expensive, time-consuming proposition to create that new generation, and their offshore model won't help them much for two reasons:

1) offshore wages are rising so rapidly it's becoming less cost-effective, and
2) a lot of this type of product development work has to be conducted on the ground, working with users and getting their input, WHERE THEY LIVE - in places like the US and Europe. The product marketers take a prototype, let a guitar player mess with it, take his feedback to the developers, who tweak the software, give an updated prototype to the marketer, and it starts all over again. They go through many cycles like this, and each one takes lots of time and money.

This would be an extremely expensive undertaking for any company, and it's even more so at the upper end of the market because the R&D cost is amortized across a small number of units. How many Axe-FX's have been sold? Maybe a thousand? Line 6 probably sells that many Pods in a decent month. The R&D cost of the Pod X3 was paid off long ago.

They have a profit margin they expect to make, and for all those reasons, they will have a very hard time making it in the miniscule high-end modeler market. I don't see this as viable for them in the forseeable future.
How so? All they need to do is what they do with the Bogner ALchemist...they don't have to L6 brand it. I think ya'all underestimating the power of marketing.
Last I checked L6 went from an idea to a pretty well doing company...whether they get props from the boutique crowd likely don't matter all that much.

[re-animator]

"when will toyota have an answer to ferrari??"



who do you think makes more money?? There isn't enough profit potential for line 6 to go into an AXEfx like product. Only tone snobs like us smack talk line 6..... that said, if line 6 made a truly great product that could "replace" tube amps, most of us here still wouldn't use it to wipe our asses.



line 6 makes a ton of money in a market dominated by companies that have been around for 40+ years. I think they like where they're at.

[Ed DeGenaro]

"when will toyota have an answer to ferrari??"



who do you think makes more money?? There isn't enough profit potential for line 6 to go into an AXEfx like product. Only tone snobs like us smack talk line 6..... that said, if line 6 made a truly great product that could "replace" tube amps, most of us here still wouldn't use it to wipe our asses.



line 6 makes a ton of money in a market dominated by companies that have been around for 40+ years. I think they like where they're at.

FWIW....http://inventorspot.com/files/images/toyota_gt_one_.img_assist_custom.jpg

[stratton]

AxeFx, "boutique modeler"?

I agree, at least wouldn't differ with all the previous posts. I was thinking about Line 6's top of the heap status they enjoyed for years, more so if TDM Amp farm is taken into consideration and what it would mean to them to have the top of the market going elsewhere.

Perhaps if sales remain strong in the low to mid products they won't care.

They sure do have the HW/SW thing together. I was goofing around with the XT Live the other day. I had Line6 Edit open and clicked "browse for tones" or some such and was taken to a web page with a searchable database, indexed per product type.

A couple of clicks later I downloaded an "Andy Summers" AC30 clean tone and wrote it to the XTL. It happened to be a really cool tone, and it occurred to me that the tight integration of HW/SW/Web is one of my favorite things about the product.

Shoot, it will even take over as the soundcard for my DAW if I want it to.

[bkd_guitarist]

if line 6 made a truly great product that could "replace" tube amps, most of us here still wouldn't use it to wipe our asses.

If it had that dynamic, blooming thing going on, and it was soft and fluffy...maybe infused with aloe...I would.

[re-animator]

and your ass would thank you :p

[mtmartin71]

How so? All they need to do is what they do with the Bogner ALchemist...they don't have to L6 brand it. I think ya'all underestimating the power of marketing.
Last I checked L6 went from an idea to a pretty well doing company...whether they get props from the boutique crowd likely don't matter all that much.

I'm not sure I get the analogy. I thought the Bogner Alchemist was just Line6 FX in a traditional tube amp made in China and the Spider Valve was just a modeling amp with a Bogner tube power amp section. In either case, Line6 modeling is the perceived weak point of both. I agree that they don't care about the TGP, er, boutique crowd enough to be afraid of the AxeFX. I've got to think Fractal's going to have some tough times in this recession and credit crunch, but then again I don't know how many of these they need to sell to run at proper margins. Certainly the recession may hold off some of the development plans.

There is one other way companies come get into a market segment. They acquire their way in. At least that's how it works in high tech. Fender and Gibson have done that on the guitar side...buying up other brands as subsidiaries. Could you imagine Fractal's modeling coupled and integrated with Line6 SW expertise? In business you're either growing, dying, or being eaten.

[Gtrman100]

I've had a lot of experience with Line6 stuff because I've played in versatile cover bands for the last 17 years and have needed a multitude of sounds without having to carry a boatload of equipment. I had a Flextone, Vetta, Pod, Pod XTL and now have an X3L and Variax.

I think that they will continue to improve their products because it's really only the way to survive in the marketplace. They have a reasonable track record of updating their products, even though there are bugs in their products that have been unresolved for quite a while. But they have been pretty responsive to the requests of their customers in updating software and adding functionality. They just gave X3L owners free Pod Farm platinum software. They've added amp models for free in the past.

Would they spend huge R&D dollars to cater to an extremely small(AxeFx) market? I doubt it, but I would imagine they will be updating their modeling technology when they've been profitable with the older stuff enought to justify the expense. Boss and Digitech are big competitors to them who aren't exactly sitting still in releasing new stuff.

My experience has led me to believe that Line 6 is a very smart company at doing what any company needs to do- make money! They will survive these bad economic times because they have a business model that works- they produce profitable stuff that sells to many people. I'll be surprised if Fractal is around in 10 years, but I won't be if Line 6 is.

[Julia343]

You know with the economy the way it is, I still don't think that Fractal is going to have a problem. These are the pro recording studios and the rich. It's a niche market.

Look at Soldano. The only amp they make that I can remotely afford is the Hot Rod Avenger and that's a stretch. Their SLOs are in the upper $3K range. Of course there's always buying used. They've been through several recessions and survived. I mean I expect people to buy the HR Avenger even though it's an old style plug in and go amp -- not even a two channel switcher. They've got a niche market.

If Fractal tried to compete with Line 6 POD XX pro with this high end product they'd get killed. And bought out. So the rule is not to compete there. I still expect them to improve their product to a next generation in 18 months, then what do they do with their old stuff? License it to a company that can compete with Line 6 to keep the revenue stream coming in while they develop even better stuff.

[re-animator]

something I think a lot of you guys are forgetting is that the pod stuff is not only popular with teenage shredders and guitar center loiterers....



virtually every studio I've been to or seen has some line 6 gear. The pod pros are VERY popular, even in high end studios.

[scott58]

I like line 6, been using an XT Live for over 2 years now. I think I'd be more interested in what fractal could offer in $400 to $500 range.

[jzgtrguy]

Line 6, IMHO, sees the top end of the market as too small of a market segment for them to pursue; they let the Vetta die a slow death because they focused on the lower end and middle market.

The R&D cost to catch and pass Fractal won't net them the ROI they'd need to see on the R&D investment.

IMHO.

Well said Scott. Analog technology is is at least 60 years old so the tube amp you buy today will never really ever become obsolete. Eventually Cliff will come out with something that will eclipse the AXE-FX. My rig will still sound great though. If it can go toe to toe with any analog rig out there and hold it's own it will still sound great when the new improved axe fx 2.0 come out.

[aksman]

I thought Lexus was Toyota's answer in the higher-end.

[crosse79]

2 different markets. One is for the masses where else one is for those who want top quality performance but pay for it.

[Old Fuzzface]

There's one very obvious possible response: buy the company.

If Fractal have superior technology that can be integrated into future L6 products and L6 have the marketing clout that Fractal need to grow the company then why not?

[stratton]

Spider Valve VI by Fractal Audio?

[stratzrus]

The difference is, a tube amp you pay $1500 for today, will be worth the same or more in a few years time...whereas your Axe you paid $1500 for will be worth maybe $100.

In a decade Cliff will be laughing at his current technology, he'll consider it backward and useless.If the future was so easily predictable we'd all be rich.

Six months ago someone here predicted that in a year that the Axe FX would be going used for $300. I haven't seen the price for used units drop at all yet. I personally believe that if the firmware updates continue that the product will hold it's value unless a much better chip at a much lower cost becomes available.

Nostradamus was smart. He predicted things that would happen after he died. As a result he couldn't be embarrassed if they didn't come true.

[twinrider1]

Will Line 6 try to compete with Fractal? I don't know. But I bet a dollar they have an Axe FX in a lab somewhere.

[DaveP]

The difference is, a tube amp you pay $1500 for today, will be worth the same or more in a few years time...whereas your Axe you paid $1500 for will be worth maybe $100.

In a decade Cliff will be laughing at his current technology, he'll consider it backward and useless.

Yeah, good one, just like the TC2290. Lexicon PCM42 etc..
Bogner XTC new 3200, used 2200-2500 tops. Soldano SLO, 3800 new, one just sold for 2000.

Your point.

[DaveP]

lol, you made my point for me.

Bogner XTC used $2500
Soldano used $2500

Where's the PC/cellphone/laptop/monitor you owned 8 years ago, still in front of you, or dumped long ago at the local rubbish dump?


Oh yeah I did. LOL

It really is hard to predict the future of the products we buy today. As you pointed out the worst investments are computer products. Every few years or so you see a dumpster full of old printers, monitors, PC's etc....
I have a box of old cell phones that I hate to throw away but they are junk now.

Processors in general will always retain some value I believe. The Roland SDE, Yamaha SPX990 etc.. still sought after equipment, I suspect the same will hold true with the AxeFx.

[johnrea_77]

Line 6 - some love them, some h8ers as well. You can't argue that they have been one of the more successful and innovative companies over the last ten years. How many PODs are out there? I've had the XTpro and the X3 live. Even though I've gotten away from these I'm currently using the M13 stompbox modeler. It is much better suited to my needs. The other guitar player in my band uses the HD147 amp with a FBV Shortboard. I see a lot of L6 gear in bands in my area.

Axe-FX - They will be fine holding their own in the high-end niche market. Keep in mind they now have the association with Atomic. I would expect some new products will come out of this. Everyone is expecting some type of combo amp at the very least. And there is also the much anticipated AFX foot controller that the users have been anticipating.

Both companies should survive the current downturn.

[powermatt99]

Will Line 6 try to compete with Fractal? I don't know. But I bet a dollar they have an Axe FX in a lab somewhere.

And I'm sure fractal had some Pods. At this point, I think Fractal is relying heavily on the modeling hype created by Line6 while at the same time hoping that Line6 users will want to take it to the next level with the AxeFx. I bet a majority of AxeFx users are former Pod or Flextone users who are kicking things up a notch.

[buddaman71]

The difference is, a tube amp you pay $1500 for today, will be worth the same or more in a few years time...whereas your Axe you paid $1500 for will be worth maybe $100.

In a decade Cliff will be laughing at his current technology, he'll consider it backward and useless.

================================================== ========================================

Good tone NEVER becomes obsolete, even if the hardware/software used to produce it does.

[bkd_guitarist]

There's one very obvious possible response: buy the company.

If Fractal have superior technology that can be integrated into future L6 products and L6 have the marketing clout that Fractal need to grow the company then why not?

This makes a hell of a lot more sense than L6 trying to build a competitive product themselves.

[Mr. Brady]

This makes a hell of a lot more sense than L6 trying to build a competitive product themselves.

I don't see Cliff being bought out by L6. He seems to have more integrity than that. Who knows how much money it would take to make him think about it though. I know part of the reason the axe costs what it does is his use of USA sources for parts and labor. He has pretty much said he won't out source. You gotta give him credit for that.

Back to the topic, yes someone will have another modeling device that competes with the Axe-Fx. It's the nature of business and especially in the digital realm there are always going to be improvements being made.

How much did the original PODs go for? $400? Now you can get them for $100. I doubt the original axe-fx's will hit $100, but you can bet they will loose significant value if there are enough of them out there and Axe-fx II gets released.

[cochese]

You know with the economy the way it is, I still don't think that Fractal is going to have a problem. These are the pro recording studios and the rich. It's a niche market.. .

It's not exactly that high end. I mean their (Fractal) top of the line processor is what $1995 and the less expensive is $1500. Not cheap but then a Crane Song stereo compressor costs over $4000. The majority of the cost for these products is really the R & D. As for components Line 6 is in a much better position than most to offer a similar product more cheaply. As for algorithms many have already copied Line 6's products. From what someone in the industry told me these companies that knock off these types of products just figure out the math. They don't do their own R & D. Not really ethical but then I'm not quite sure how a lawyer could sue anyone for copying a product that is pretty much based on copies or models of other people's products. This is not to say that Line 6 would do this. I don't think they need to. Still I wouldn't expect Line 6 to sit idly by while a smaller company takes part of the market share. Who sells more guitars than Fender yet they have been trying to stop very small companies who have made guitars for years from making better guitars than they do because they have a Fender shape.

It's hard to tell what the future can bring but from what I've seen at this Forum if Line 6 or someone else offers a product that can do what the Axe FX can for 1/2 the price many of the people here who say it can't be done will probably be inclined to buy it.

[Jarrett]

The interesting question is will Cliff try to compete with Line6?

Make a scaled down version? Talk to Bruce Egnater about how to successfully offshore and market to GC? Lots of money to be had there...

[Ed DeGenaro]

The difference is, a tube amp you pay $1500 for today, will be worth the same or more in a few years time...whereas your Axe you paid $1500 for will be worth maybe $100.

In a decade Cliff will be laughing at his current technology, he'll consider it backward and useless.
So...I should be using an Atari or better yet an abacus instead of a current spec lap top?
As for amp prices, unless they're vintage or collectibles price will not stay up...
example Mesa T-verb new 1800-1900, now used 800-1000. Which is reasonable, but nowhere near as rosy as being worth the same or more.

[megalowmatt]

I look at it this way.
If you pay $1500 for an Axe-FX, and in 7 years it's worth $500, I don't see a problem...you've had use of a brilliant product for 7 years and it's cost you a $1000 for that use....you'll lose more money on the car you bought 7 years ago.

If you spend $1500 on some clothes, in 7 years those clothes will more than likely be the rags you use to clean your amps and wipe down your guitars.

I could not have said it better myself. I bought mine with the idea of depreciation like a computer. Ironically, used Axe-Fx units for sale are few and far between and those that do sell are still in the $1200-1300 range. I think the last Standard to sell on Ebay went for $1300. Try to search ebay for an Axe or the Emporium here. There were many claims that there would be an abundance of units around this time and everybody would be able to snatch them up for $500. I think that says a lot for an electronic device that has been around for the better part of 3 years.

Line 6 is a money making machine. There's nothing wrong with that, it's what a business is all about. They don't seem interested in continually upgrading existing products but rather re-releasing or re-hashing variations of existing products. I don't think there's any motivation for them to come out with anything better or a match for the Axe. Plenty of professionals and studios are still using L6 products, so why change.....

matt

[bkd_guitarist]

I don't see Cliff being bought out by L6. He seems to have more integrity than that.

What does accepting a buyout offer have to do with integrity, or lack of integrity? It's a business decision.

[Mr. Brady]

What does accepting a buyout offer have to do with integrity, or lack of integrity? It's a business decision.


If you read his posts on the subject of outsourcing, he clearly has strong beliefs against it and L6's business model. To him it seems to be more than just a bottom line money and cents business decision. This is what he loves to do and it shows.

If he does sell, it certainly doesn't mean that he doesn't have any integrity. It just appears to me that it's more to him than just a business. I don't speak for him of course.

[redpill]

Line6 does not want to get into the top-end build quality concerns, among other issues associated with reaching into Axe-FX territory. Their technology will improve, as other have mentioned will be the case with digital for a while. But I think they like their market position.

[soldano16]

"when will toyota have an answer to ferrari??"

Nissan does... GT-R

[Gtrman100]

Line6 does not want to get into the top-end build quality concerns, among other issues associated with reaching into Axe-FX territory. Their technology will improve, as other have mentioned will be the case with digital for a while. But I think they like their market position.
I'm not arguing for them, but I think they would say their PodX3 Pro would fit into the "top-build" quality category. I've heard that many touring pros use Pod Pros in their racks.

Has anyone posted clips comparing direct recordings of AxeFx models vs Pod X3"s? I'd be very interested in hearing the difference.

[cochese]

Line6 does not want to get into the top-end build quality concerns, among other issues associated with reaching into Axe-FX territory. Their technology will improve, as other have mentioned will be the case with digital for a while. But I think they like their market position.

The cost in this type of technology has very little to do with components. It's R&D and marketing costs. A Waves Gold TDM Bundle which is only software sells for the same amount as the Axe FX Ultra. There are no components on the Waves Bundle. It's software which is the heart of all things digital. It's not the difference between a hand wired tube amp with top shelf components and a cheaply made pcb amp made with offshore parts and labor. As to Line 6's future intentions I have no crystal ball but perhaps the Axe FX might push them into making a better product. I certainly think that companies like Anderson and Suhr have pushed Fender into making better guitars and I doubt any guitar company can compete with Fender's market share.

[Turbo Gerbil]

One thing I've heard that may be a factor is that most of the original brain trust behind Line6 has flown the coop ( to start Damage Control?). Given that lately they seem more intent on producing "More of the same" in different formats rather than really R&D'ing to push the state of the art in the modelling itself there may be something to the implication that Line6 has lost some of it's core brain power.

[Electric I]

Line6 seems to have developed laterally - same tech, just more gizmos.

To my ear, other companies have caught up to & even surpassed them in sound and/or feel. Vox, for one.

Here's to atomic/fractal making a go of it & setting the bar for the modelling amps of tomorrow.

[AndrewSimon]

You are all wrong!
Fractal Audio will stop production, no other company will put their hart into creating a "boutique modeler", your only option will be the sub $500 box pushers.
AXE-FX will be highly collectible with unimaginable soaring prices.
It will be the "Dumble of modelers" selling first for thusands and then for tens of thousands of dollars!!!!
:crazyguy



OK I'm just kidding but it's definitely a possible scenario.
Price is influenced by many factors.
Besides I purchased the AXE-FX because I enjoy it
NOT because I wanted to make an investment or future profit.

Let's say you play a great amp that gives you all the tones you dreamed about,
it's your ultimate amp!
are you NOT going to buy it just because you know it will not hold it's resale value???

:dunno

[gtr37]

I see Line6 and Fractal possibly partnering in time .

Fractal has the product ,designs and R&D but line6 has the marketing and the capital.

both line6 and Fractal have a strong competitor .Peavey.
Some have already said that Revalver 3 is on par with the amp models in AX
furthermore it is available for $299.

Right now its does not matter cause it is all software based VST .
But when the get that revalver 4 in a pod or rack unit and sell it for $500, its going to be a problem for both LIne6 and Fractal.

Fractal wont be able to touch the price point and keep in business .
Line6 wont be able to compete with tech and modelling ..



.. Peavey will be a problem .they have the R&D dollars .They have access to real tube amp designers .
They have the orginal Line6 designers and Alien connections.
they have the marketing channels and the ability to keep an insanely low price point .
the reliability of offshore builds may kill them though ..

Just my 10 cents

[King Crimson]

If anyone will try to compete with the Axe-FX head to head, I would put my money on Digitech.

Agree with you to some extent. However, I think that tc electronic needs to get back up to speed and take on this role even though they are generating plenty of revenue with their mostly out dated guitar rack units.

I own a G-Force and love it for its ease of use and fairly good quality effects. But its 10 y/o+ technology. I mean, for $400 (instead of $1500 for the G-Force – same as the AXE-Fx) you can get the G-Major with the exact same quality of effects that the G-Force has, but doesn’t have the intelligent sequencing with more harmonic detailing and more extensive routing capabilities. So you be my guest and flip the coin...

[jzgtrguy]

The difference is, a tube amp you pay $1500 for today, will be worth the same or more in a few years time...whereas your Axe you paid $1500 for will be worth maybe $100.

In a decade Cliff will be laughing at his current technology, he'll consider it backward and useless.

I first got interested by reading Scott's original thread. I brought up your very concern. I asked all sorts of questions and then waited for 7 months. Bottom line for me is it is not an investment. I don't plan on ever selling it. I am really, really happy with it. Where as I love tube amps they still depreciate. Maybe not as much as a computer but they still do and the Axe has been holding up pretty well apparently.

[Scott Peterson]

I see Line6 and Fractal possibly partnering in time .

Fractal has the product ,designs and R&D but line6 has the marketing and the capital.

both line6 and Fractal have a strong competitor .Peavey.
Some have already said that Revalver 3 is on par with the amp models in AX
furthermore it is available for $299.

Right now its does not matter cause it is all software based VST .
But when the get that revalver 4 in a pod or rack unit and sell it for $500, its going to be a problem for both LIne6 and Fractal.

Fractal wont be able to touch the price point and keep in business .
Line6 wont be able to compete with tech and modelling ..



.. Peavey will be a problem .they have the R&D dollars .They have access to real tube amp designers .
They have the orginal Line6 designers and Alien connections.
they have the marketing channels and the ability to keep an insanely low price point .
the reliability of offshore builds may kill them though ..

Just my 10 cents

Problem with your proposal, while it has merit, is that you assume Fractal is sitting still with it's current product line.

They are coming with a VST/hardware interface sooner or later. It'll drop the price point of entry dramatically to their products. They are going to drop a powered speaker, that's been shown in prototype already. They are going to do a stripped down combo amp (hinted at by Cliff already). They are going to do a 'Axe-FX in a pedal' format (hinted at by Cliff already).

Fractal's a moving target soon.

Let's let it play and see.

Line 6 has simply gone to 'variations on a theme' and done no new great ground breaking products for quite a while. They went from dropping new stuff at a screaming rate - Variax, and Spidervalve, etc - to more 'POD on a stick' level stuff; they took the POD stuff and packaged and regifted it to the average ~$500 level and below in a lot of different flavors. Pocket PODs, Computer PODs, etc. etc.. It's no slam, it's market domination at a given price point.

They walked away from the ~$1500 they owned with Vetta and Vetta II and stopped supporting it long ago now. They've nothing outside of the POD Pro stuff even seemingly aimed at the higher end.

They've got the marketing; but IMHO the niche that Fractal holds now and is developing moves across the price point and market.

I think we'll see a more "Boss/Eventide" relationship evolve.

But I've been wrong before.

IMHO, YMMV.

[chewynodoubt]

I think we are missing the point here. I have no problem with the Axe-FX, in fact I have never played one, so I can't comment on its quality of sound but from what I have heard it's pretty dang good. The Line6 (POD X3, which I currently own along with an analog rig) sounds good to me and the people I play for. I digress.....my point is that for $1500 I'd buy a Dr. Z not an Axe -FX, or any other well built boutique tube amp..!

Line6 (as a company) promotes tube tone for way cheaper than you can buy it (tube amps) for and I think that is the point.

[LaXu]

Line6 is a study in superior marketing and business innovation. They actually had product innovation early on and essentially created the digital modeling market and since the PODxt many years ago, they haven't engineered anything truly new. What they have done is repackage and remarket the sh!t out of the xt technology with incredible results.

Exactly. Line6 has never been the one to produce the best product. When Line6 first came into the market with the AxSys, at the time Yamaha and Roland were doing far superior modeling with the DG and VG systems. Line6 hit the jackpot with the POD because it was small and convenient and above all, a lot cheaper than the systems available from other brands.

After that they've simply gone for quantity over quality. People are happy when they have 100 amp models even though the Yamaha DG's mere 8 covered pretty much every tone you'd need.

Line6 has done far better marketing than development, though I must say that whoever designs their hardware units is doing a great job from a usabillity point of view. This is where the Axe-Fx sucks tremendously. The software and hardware may be top notch, but the user interface is straight from 1980s rack units.

I wish that at some point there is a change in approach to modeling. I'd like to see it move into a direction where no unit has "Marshall this and that" amp models because this instantly makes you compare it to the real thing. If modeling was simply used for tube tone emulation I believe the amp modeling market would be far better off. This was how the Yamaha DG was designed to be and when I had one I never thought "well this doesn't quite sound like a Plexi". The amp models were simply named "Crunch 2" or "Lead 1" so it didn't matter and I enjoyed the amp for many years.

[stratzrus]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that one day, not that far off actually, the current Axe-FX will be considered amateur start-up gear.Agreed...you're out on a limb. :D


Has anyone posted clips comparing direct recordings of AxeFx models vs Pod X3"s? I'd be very interested in hearing the difference.The differences between the POD and Axe FX aren't limited to the amp models. The Axe gives you a completely different level of control of your signal. Both may sound good on a clip, but you can tailor the Axe to sound much closer to the way you personally want it.

In that regard there's no comparison at all.

[phillygtr]

Exactly! When I approach a piece of gear (especially digital modelers), I ask "what decent/good/great tones can I get out of it?" Not, "this must be crap because this computer thingy doesn't sound just like a 50's Fender tweed." I've found this approach has given me much more enjoyment of all types of gear. I try to get the best sounds I can out of them even if it doesn't do what some other gear or can do.

I must say that I do prefer analog (however, I do have a soft spot for solid state amps oddly enough), but there are a lot of great tones to be made out there with a variety of gear.

I wish that at some point there is a change in approach to modeling. I'd like to see it move into a direction where no unit has "Marshall this and that" amp models because this instantly makes you compare it to the real thing. If modeling was simply used for tube tone emulation I believe the amp modeling market would be far better off. This was how the Yamaha DG was designed to be and when I had one I never thought "well this doesn't quite sound like a Plexi". The amp models were simply named "Crunch 2" or "Lead 1" so it didn't matter and I enjoyed the amp for many years.

[Stef_herbuel]

Has anyone posted clips comparing direct recordings of AxeFx models vs Pod X3"s? I'd be very interested in hearing the difference.

i don't know but i had tonelabe SE, VG88 , and pod , and now i have a axe-fx, i can tell you that it's not the same thing at all
maybe in the "metal" style you could not tell the difference because of hi gain and no dynamic but heres some sample i made with axe fx :

i played over van halen record (panned on the other side of eddie, with lot of wrong notes !)
http://rbul1.free.fr/vanhalen.mp3

and some other sample (over records too, axe fx is ONLY lead guitar)
http://rbul1.free.fr/clean.mp3
http://rbul1.free.fr/cleants808.mp3
http://rbul1.free.fr/dumble.mp3

and alone in a jeff beck style, , you can hear how great the reverb is , and same sound , all with volume knob.

http://rbul1.free.fr/JB.mp3

if you can find some clips of POD in these kind of style, i would like to hear them, POD sound always sound too much "compressed" with no dynamic (to my ears) ...

don't forget that it's also a GREAT effect unit , like an eventide eclipse...
the routing is awesome.
so there are sometime really good effect units,who still are a "must have"... (you can find old GX700 for the price of a stompbox, but it does the job ...after 14 years...)
so you can decide not buy a computer because you think that in ten years it will cost nothing, but you can wait all your life like this.i don't care how much it will cost in ten years, all that i know is that my GAS for effect unit and preamp is over, and that i can have brown sound and all the sound i want in this little magic box :-)
it's expansive ? ok
line 6 is cheap , yes ...but i bought a DM4 , MM4 , DL4 ...
DL4 is out of order (it stops works when it want, especially when you play live ! ), DM4 too (same pb) , and MM4 has a lot of pbs... (and i'm not the only one)
i'm not the edge with a guitar tech behind me and 50 DM4 for spare if i want.
i paid 300 euro each stompbox.
i almot lose 900 euros , and line 6 didn't care at all because M13 , with is based on the stombox XX4 seems to have a lot of bugs too...
so what is expansive here ?

axe fx did a wonderful job on power amp modelisation, it's the price for a good amp, or a good guitar.
i was ready to pay for that and i don't regret at all.
so try one one day, tweek patchs with your ears, and you won't regret, believe me.
compare line 6 with axe fx is like compare eventide with boss effect unit.
it does the job, ok...but...

and here's my "basic" (lol) patch
in the last "line" it's my microphone (for singing) because you can plug guitar + another instrument and route them separatly or like this , share the reverb ;-), i use the 2nd comp , in the effect return i put my vg88/sp404/axon guitar synth.
in the effect send i plug my rivera m60 amp.
no buzz, no noise patch change , nothing !!!
general eq for out 1, and out 2 (send) !!
the noise gate is in the input because even with hi gain amp, no noise....
there are more thing that i expected ....
about 29 parameters only in amp section to fine tune YOUR sound.
show me what it is possible to do with a POD ?
http://rbul1.free.fr/axe.jpg
just my 2 cent , happy new year :-)

[enharmonic]

I'm getting ready to unload my pedals to replace them with the AxeFx Ultra. don't see Line6 going after the same market that AxeFx is going after...but that's just me.

[VaughnC]

All the gear arguments might be moot....with places like Best Buy now selling electric guitar gear, it makes me wonder if the manufacturers are getting scared that the electric guitar is going out of vogue and they are trying to make one last attempt to try and keep it going? If it weren't for the Beatles we wouldn't be having this discussion now...what's the next turning point in electric guitar? Stringless guitar controllers...yukkk? I have a funny feeling that all out cherished tube & non-tube gear won't be worth diddly squat in a few years unless someone/something comes along to somehow revitalize the instrument. Will things like "Guitar Hero" finally kill the electric guitar as we know it or will it inspire people to learn how to play for real? And, since rap/hip-hop has hit the scene, I haven't heard much popular music that I can stand for more than a few seconds. Is the demise of the electric guitar as we know it finally in sight?

[stratzrus]

Is the demise of the electric guitar as we know it finally in sight?I don't think so.

It's still the number one instrument for teenage boys to pick up.

[JPenn]

Problem with your proposal, while it has merit, is that you assume Fractal is sitting still with it's current product line.

They are coming with a VST/hardware interface sooner or later. It'll drop the price point of entry dramatically to their products. They are going to drop a powered speaker, that's been shown in prototype already. They are going to do a stripped down combo amp (hinted at by Cliff already). They are going to do a 'Axe-FX in a pedal' format (hinted at by Cliff already).

Fractal's a moving target soon.

Let's let it play and see.

Line 6 has simply gone to 'variations on a theme' and done no new great ground breaking products for quite a while. They went from dropping new stuff at a screaming rate - Variax, and Spidervalve, etc - to more 'POD on a stick' level stuff; they took the POD stuff and packaged and regifted it to the average ~$500 level and below in a lot of different flavors. Pocket PODs, Computer PODs, etc. etc.. It's no slam, it's market domination at a given price point.

They walked away from the ~$1500 they owned with Vetta and Vetta II and stopped supporting it long ago now. They've nothing outside of the POD Pro stuff even seemingly aimed at the higher end.

They've got the marketing; but IMHO the niche that Fractal holds now and is developing moves across the price point and market.

I think we'll see a more "Boss/Eventide" relationship evolve.

But I've been wrong before.

IMHO, YMMV.

I'm ready for Axe-FX to replace my L6 gear, but I still want it Flextone simple. Hopefully they'll get on these things shortly.

[Electric I]

They are going to do a stripped down combo amp (hinted at by Cliff already).

Can not wait for this. Here's hopin' we see it in '09...

[johnrea_77]

Another view into the near future may be hinted at by the cancellation of the "Black Diamond" by VOX. It was removed from the coming product section of the company website and based on the forums it never made the final stages of the prototype. It was to be the Ultimate Vox modeler in a highly regarded group. It was deemed to not have a sufficient return on the investment. Very sililar to what people in here are saying about Line 6's top end. I had the original Valvetronix quite a few years ago and my major gripe was that although it sounded good, it wasn't easily configurable and there were a lot of limitations. I hated the foot controller the most. All that asisde, I did get some decent sounds out of it.

I'm looking forward to the new Axe-FX/Atomic collaboration and whatever product that brings wiiith it.