Why are speaker manufacturers SO shy? [Archive]

Jay Mitchell

12-19-2008, 10:51 AM

Speakers though...my GAWD... I have speakers with NO model number on them, speakers with "generic" or unspecific model numbers (Eminence Legend it says...okay, but when I look it seems there are different variations), if you are LUCKY they will print the speaker impedance on the speaker...but I have yet to see sensitivity, or wattage printed on them.First, you haven't looked closely enough yet. You need to remove the rubber ring from the periphery of the magnet (Eminence doesn't bother putting this cosmetic item on their OEM speakers) to see the ISO-compliant label on the edge of the magnet. I've got some Legends, and this label makes it clear that they are 1258s. With that information, I go to (surprise) eminence.com and surf to here: http://eminence.com/guitar_speaker_detail.asp?model=LEGEND1258&speaker_size=12&SUB_CAT_ID=4 . Note that there is a link to a .pdf spec sheet on this page.

So what was the question again?

It is a huge PITA to go try and look up specs on a speaker you have that you don't even know for sure the model,See above. It took me about a minute, and I did all of it between typing lines in this message.

and when they make them specifically for amp manufacturers, forget about finding out...That's because they want to keep their OEM customers. When I write a specification for a transducer to be made for my company on an OEM basis, I'd damn well better not see my vendor publishing that data or making that transducer available to others. If you want data on an OEM transducer, the place to get it is from the manufacturer for whom it was made. Eminence is not going to give out specs, for example, on the transducers they made for St. Lous Music (Crate), and rightfully so.

I didn't do a good enough job recording when I changed out some speakers, and now in one cab I have no idea what max rating is, so I don't dare use it with my 100w amp, etc.Guitar speaker power ratings (and speaker power ratings in general) are useless anyway.

StompBoxBlues

12-19-2008, 10:56 AM

First, you haven't looked closely enough yet. You need to remove the rubber ring from the periphery of the magnet (Eminence doesn't bother putting this cosmetic item on their OEM speakers) to see the ISO-compliant label on the edge of the magnet. I've got some Legends, and this label makes it clear that they are 1258s. With that information, I go to (surprise) eminence.com and surf to here: http://eminence.com/guitar_speaker_detail.asp?model=LEGEND1258&speaker_size=12&SUB_CAT_ID=4 . Note that there is a link to a .pdf spec sheet on this page.

So what was the question again?

See above. It took me about a minute, and I did all of it between typing lines in this message.

That's because they want to keep their OEM customers. When I write a specification for a transducer to be made for my company on an OEM basis, I'd damn well better not see my vendor publishing that data or making that transducer available to others. If you want data on an OEM transducer, the place to get is is from the manufacturer from whom it was made.

Guitar speaker power ratings are useless anyway.

Well...gee, you're just amazing in your knowledge. you don't by any chance work at Eminence do you?
Tell me, what would you do with speakers that JUST have the manufacturers name on them? A cabinet, you bought it used, you want to use it, there is no label, or you bought the speakers used, same thing. No model number, nothing...just the manufacturer.
How would you look that up? How would you be sure it could handle the intended application. Your position makes no sense to me. The customer is supposed to have to research and even after many hours, not be sure if that speaker is okay to use in a given situation?
Why would that be okay and in what other instances would it?

Please, give me ONE (just one) good reason why they shouldn't put that information (at LEAST impedance, and wattage, but why in the heck not sensitivity also?) on the speaker?

Removing parts on the speaker? I don't see a ISO compliant label on mine. The obvious place would be on the back, the part usually facing the back. OEM also, it isn't some state secret about wattage (and yeah, wattage IS important too, as a guideline. If you have a 100 watt amp and speakers that together only handle 60 watts, I'd say that would be good info to have, you disagree?)

Your snarkiness aside (hinting I am lazy for not wanting to dig through and find the info, when I explained pretty clearly that it isn't the digging, it is the CERTAINTY that THIS particular speaker is the one I'm looking at specs on, knowing that I won't exceed its rating). It isn't as cut and dried as you would have it.

Why not?

To my mind, it is a lot more important than the power ratings almost all amp manufacturers stamp on the back of their amps, because you could ruin speakers AND the amp if you blow the speaker.

Tell me, if food distributors suddenly decided to elimante expiration dates on food, but you could (probably) look it up on a web site, from a unique batch number...with like 80% certainty you would be getting the correct information, would that be okay?

There are certain conventions, certain things customer ought to be able to expect, and stamping the specifics (which are definitely known at the time of manufacture) on the actual speaker ought to be a no-brainer. That is isn't, I don't understand. Sure, if you want to look up the characteristics other than say watts, impedance, and it would be nice with sensitivity, then you go on the site, if it is OEM, and secret, fine. But those basics...ought to be a given.

Jay Mitchell

12-19-2008, 12:17 PM

Well...gee, you're just amazing in your knowledge. you don't by any chance work at Eminence do you?Per my post, I am an OEM customer of Eminence, as well as other transducer rmanufacturers. I have used OEM parts from Eminence for the past 25 years.

Tell me, what would you do with speakers that JUST have the manufacturers name on them?Throw 'em away, I guess. :dunno

A cabinet, you bought it used, you want to use it, there is no label, or you bought the speakers used, same thing. No model number, nothing...just the manufacturer.And what else do you feel entitled to? Do you think Ford (or GM, or, American Motors) have an obligation to provide replacement parts for their antique models?:roll

The customer is supposed to have to research and even after many hours, not be sure if that speaker is okay to use in a given situation?You're not Eminence's customer unless you purchased Eminence transducers from them or through one of their authorized distributors (e.g., Parts Express). Had you done so, you would find all the support that you claim you are due. When you purchase anything used from a private party, one principle applies: caveat emptor.

Please, give me ONE (just one) good reason why they shouldn't put that information (at LEAST impedance, and wattage, but why in the heck not sensitivity also?) on the speaker?OK, here's ONE: Their OEM customer did not call for that information to be placed on the speaker. Eminence places the impedance on the edge label of even their OEM transducers. You can easily find all the other relevant information on their standard models on their website, as I already pointed out.

There are certain conventions, certain things customer ought to be able to expect,And, as an actual customer of Eminence, I can tell you that they deliver.

That is isn't, I don't understand.It seems clear to me that you're not particularly interested in understanding. As I pointed out, if you have a speaker with a label that identifies it as a standard Eminence model (e.g., Legend), then that speaker originally came with a label on the edge of the magnet with more specific information, including model number and impedance.

But those basics...ought to be a given.They are. You said you have an Eminence Legend, which means that it is not an OEM speaker. If there is no label on the edge of the magnet, it is because someone has removed it. Eminence definitely put one there when they manufactured the speaker.

Zimi

12-19-2008, 08:51 PM

I hate it when they don't put the size on the speaker. I tried for hours to get a 15 to go where a 10 was, used a BFH to massage the frame and it sounds hellasweet.

edgewound

12-19-2008, 08:59 PM

Guitar speaker power ratings (and speaker power ratings in general) are useless anyway.

Your credibility just went out the window. I thought you were a thoughtful engineer that new pretty much everything about everything.

You proved me wrong.:roll

kimock

12-19-2008, 09:04 PM

I hate it when they don't put the size on the speaker. I tried for hours to get a 15 to go where a 10 was, used a BFH to massage the frame and it sounds hellasweet.

NOS or OEM BFH?

kimock

12-19-2008, 09:14 PM

Your credibility just went out the window. I thought you were a thoughtful engineer that new pretty much everything about everything.

You proved me wrong.:roll

here it comes. . .

Zimi

12-19-2008, 09:59 PM

NOS or OEM BFH?

VM BFH, it has a lazer sight.

rhythmrocker

12-19-2008, 10:18 PM

Personally, I like looking up stuff.

edgewound

12-19-2008, 11:35 PM

And, as an actual customer of Eminence, I can tell you that they deliver.

Yes, that's correct... they deliver the speaker that you spec that will give you the lowest cost to supply for OEM. By your admonition....you don't give a rat's ass what you deliver because it doesn't matter. Sounds like the general mentality of Corporate America that doesn't give a rat's ass about the consumer, because it's clear to you that the end user is stupid. You are at the mercy of the bean counters that allow you to spend the lowest amount of money possible for a mass produced amp or PA speaker.

After that...it's up to the end user to pick a speaker that actually works.

And BTW....you know that power ratings/handling matter. The professional industry is expected to live up to accurate power handling specs...power compression matters....on every gig.

And that's the truth.

indianjjy

12-19-2008, 11:42 PM

You can't remember how many watts your speakers will handle? How many cabs do you have?

Zuper

12-19-2008, 11:47 PM

Guitar speaker power ratings (and speaker power ratings in general) are useless anyway.

:roll

Iceman8.6

12-20-2008, 12:32 AM

I hate it when they don't put the size on the speaker. I tried for hours to get a 15 to go where a 10 was, used a BFH to massage the frame and it sounds hellasweet.

Pfft, weak, I pull out the blow torch and get busy on mine....nothing like melting a 15 incher into a 8 inch slot....makes the speaker sound like its on fire.

Shiny McShine

12-20-2008, 01:16 AM

StompBoxBlues

12-20-2008, 02:51 AM

You can't remember how many watts your speakers will handle? How many cabs do you have?

I have (counting now just the ones I remember) about 10 right now. Some I have had for many years. Plus I have combo amps where the speakers are original or not marked. Have bought speakers where the seller wasn't sure, bought cabinets where the seller didn't know if they were original (so I can't look up what the cab comes with, because I don't know if they are the original speakers,etc.) it's a mess.

The one guy that seems to think this is some "whining" or customer expecting the world, (and hey I'm not even a legit customer if I buy a used speaker)...phhht.

I'm surprised that there is any dissent to be honest. This is not "rocket science" really...they have a perfectly good surface they can stamp in or label...in fact most of my speakers (though not all) have already a label with the manufacturers name, but only sometimes with a model number.

It is pretty amazing they have gotten away with this all these years. the one poster seems hung up on OEM, big deal. The fact is, in the real world people are mixing and changing out speakers quite a bit. Because of that alone, it wouldn't even help if the cabinet maker put a label on because you still don't know if it is the original speakers.

Since speakers can blow, and take out an OT with them, which is a very big deal, they ought to be labelling the speakers.

Model number, impedance, watts handling capability, and if they really want to do it right speaker sensitivity. The analogy to car manufacturers is ludicrous, different industry, different use, plus no one so far was talking about "forcing them to support or make anitique parts available" at all, in fact that useless point actually makes MY point...you get a speaker that is discontinued, there is no guarantee that the manufacturer IS EVEN STILL IN BUSINESS to look up on the web, or that they have spec sheets available on the net.

The ONLY logical place to have it is right on the speaker. It wouldn't cost much, and it would be the RIGHT thing to do. People that "Like looking stuff up" on the net can still do it, still (IF the company is still around, and still has that info on the net) read up all the specs and the frequency chart on it, but still the info would be on the speaker.

Given the damage a speaker run past it's rating can do, it ought to be required. Companies are supposed to think about how the public in general uses their products. If you save and buy used, or new, it ought to be easier to find this info with speaker in hand...

Zimi

12-20-2008, 05:24 AM

Companies are supposed to think about how the public in general uses their products. If you save and buy used, or new, it ought to be easier to find this info with speaker in hand...

Companies think about making a profit and staying in business. Catering to people who buy used accomplishes neither, but many companies have info online and tech support. If you're too lazy to look and/or ask for the info that's your own fault, not theirs.

What more do you want? Should they send out a guy to change the speakers for you?

Some people just like to bitch. Maybe they should have sticker...

Scumback Speakers

12-20-2008, 06:28 AM

Since speakers can blow, and take out an OT with them, which is a very big deal, they ought to be labelling the speakers.

Model number, impedance, watts handling capability, and if they really want to do it right speaker sensitivity. The analogy to car manufacturers is ludicrous, different industry, different use, plus no one so far was talking about "forcing them to support or make anitique parts available" at all, in fact that useless point actually makes MY point...you get a speaker that is discontinued, there is no guarantee that the manufacturer IS EVEN STILL IN BUSINESS to look up on the web, or that they have spec sheets available on the net.

The ONLY logical place to have it is right on the speaker. It wouldn't cost much, and it would be the RIGHT thing to do. People that "Like looking stuff up" on the net can still do it, still (IF the company is still around, and still has that info on the net) read up all the specs and the frequency chart on it, but still the info would be on the speaker.

Given the damage a speaker run past it's rating can do, it ought to be required. Companies are supposed to think about how the public in general uses their products. If you save and buy used, or new, it ought to be easier to find this info with speaker in hand...

You really are making way too much sense, mister, knock it off! LOL

I agree with you. All of this data is actually on my speakers in TWO places, one is readily found on the back of the magnet with a fairly clear label, the other from Weber VST on the side of the speaker frame.

The only reason this isn't clearly marked is so that the OEM can replace your speaker with their "replacement" part, just like GM, Ford, etc. If you keep the customer baffled, they don't go anywhere else, they just "call the dealer". Take tires for example. The Bridgestone tire on my Celica GTS was $300 from the Toyota dealer. It was $128 from Just Tires. How did I know? I read the DOT ratings, treadwear ratings, etc. from the side of the original tire and bought the equivalent tire aftermarket (same brand, size, etc) elsewhere.

If you don't think that speaker price is a determining factor for an amp maker, think again...it's also a question of ethics, IMO. Many times I have been asked to supply Scumbacks to amp companies "without the labels", or will I put their custom label on them? I always refuse. They can take the label off, or put their own on top of mine AFTER they get it, but when you make a high end product there's no need to disguise it...unless you have other reasons.

I know the pricing Eminence will offer me to make speakers. They won't do the aging, the treatment, and other build factors to sound like what I want from them, but they will sell them to me for 1/3rd the price I pay for the Scumbacks from Ted Weber...if I buy 100 of each model. I don't have the warehouse space for 16 speaker models with three power ratings and two ohm ratings.

That would be 80 speakers X 100. 8000 speakers to buy, stock, & pay for.

And that is Eminence's minimum order per speaker type. I find it really hard to believe that any small manufacturer is ordering speakers in 100's, and that's one good reason (but not the only one) why you can't find the label on many speakers. The speaker maker wants to protect their client, the original dealer/maker wants to make his $$, so disguising, or making the specs hard to find, keeps the client coming back to the maker/dealer, regardless if it is in the customer's best interest, it's in the dealer's best interest. The question of whether they've really "spec'd" a custom speaker is also suspect, IMO, when you know the ordering guidelines.

StompBoxBlues

12-20-2008, 06:30 AM

Companies think about making a profit and staying in business. Catering to people who buy used accomplishes neither, but many companies have info online and tech support. If you're too lazy to look and/or ask for the info that's your own fault, not theirs.

What more do you want? Should they send out a guy to change the speakers for you?

Some people just like to bitch. Maybe they should have sticker...

Man...are you able to read and comprehend what you read? Why the big act that this has to do with being lazy (it's bull, and you know it), why the insulting attitude?

Putting information that ought to be a given on the item (for all the reasons I mentioned) ought to be standard practice. You haven't come with any reason not to (please, it's going to make the company go broke, be uncompetitive, etc., get real).

Someone buys it new, others see the quality that they thought of the customer, even when buying used, and maybe that customer buys one of those over another because of that. Maybe not. Either way, your obtuse answers here are borderline nuts to me.

I very clearly pointed out some don't even have a model number. You haven't really answered that at all.

You seem to have a real bug about anyone trying to make something better, make something a little more user friendly, and a particular dislike of people buying speakers used.

Calling me lazy, you don't know me and you have no call to that. It isn't laziness, it is certainty.

Sheesh...

Jay Mitchell

12-20-2008, 08:18 AM

Yes, that's correct... they deliver the speaker that you spec that will give you the lowest cost to supply for OEM.Actually, the Eminence transducers I use cost substantially more than others that are available to me. They perform much better, however - and they are made in the USA - so the extra money is well worth it.

By your admonition....you don't give a rat's ass what you deliver because it doesn't matter.All of my products are fully supported by comprehensive, independent technical data - in stark contrast to the entire music-store-crap industry - design advice, and replacement parts for every speaker my company has ever manufactured. You have no clue here, you're just baiting. It won't work.

Sounds like the general mentality of Corporate America that doesn't give a rat's ass about the consumer, because it's clear to you that the end user is stupid.My customers are not the end users, and the sound systems in which my products are used are often extremely sophisticated, high-performance systems. Their costs can run to seven figures. The folks who design and install those systems won't consider using devices in them for which support is not readily available. And the owners of those systems usually know better than to try to second-guess the professionals to whom they have paid large dollars to create the designs.

You are at the mercy of the bean counters that allow you to spend the lowest amount of money possible for a mass produced amp or PA speaker.Bwahaha. I own the company, we don't "mass produce" anything, and my products are not cheaply made by any standards.

After that...it's up to the end user to pick a speaker that actually works.In the case of my products, it's up to the end user to get competent sound system design services. I know a number of acoustic consultants in various locations around the world to whom I can refer end users who might be contemplating a system that would call for my products.

And BTW....you know that power ratings/handling matter.They would matter, if they were based on real, standardized test results. Because they are not - particularly in the area of guitar speakers - they are useless.

The professional industry is expected to live up to accurate power handling specs...power compression matters....on every gig.Bwahahaha again. There are only two recognized power handling standards - AES-84 and EIA RS426 - and neither addresses the issue of power "compression" in any way. A speaker can pass either of those tests at its rated power with flying colors (you'd be surprised how many well-known ones fail, however) and "compress" (it's really thermally-induced sensitivity loss) by more than 6 dB.

And that's the truth.Nope. I'm using my real name here, BTW. "Edgewound," you seem to be wound a bit, umm, tight. Maybe a little less caffeine?

Jay Mitchell

12-20-2008, 10:51 AM

Jay Mitchell, if you're affiliated with a company that produces anything musical, you need to put that in your signature.Nope. I have nothing to sell to anyone here, nor any affiliation with anyone who "engages in the business of making or selling music gear." FWIW, there are moderators here who are well aware of my professional circumstances, and they have so far not raised any issues.

Next, it's totally uncool for people in the business to snipe at another here.Define "the business." It is my position that I am in a completely different business from amp, instrument, and effects makers. I compete with none of these folks. Furthermore, conveying basic facts related to audio can hardly be characterized as "sniping," just because they happen to contradict allegations made by others.

Jay Mitchell

12-20-2008, 11:10 AM

Many times I have been asked to supply Scumbacks to amp companies "without the labels", or will I put their custom label on them? I always refuse.And that is your right. Eminence was originally nothing but an OEM manufacturer, however. For years, they didn't put their logo on any speaker they made. It has only been in the past ~10 years that they have pursued creating a brand identity to end users.

They can take the label off, or put their own on top of mine AFTER they get it, but when you make a high end product there's no need to disguise it...unless you have other reasons.Can you generate an engineering sample for me that has all the Thiele-Small parameters I specify, the voice coil diameter and configuration (edgewound, over/underhung) I call out, flux density in the gap, coil former material, terminal type, basket design, etc.? If not, then you are not a viable OEM supplier, and you have no clue as to what is involved in conducting that kind of business.

And that is Eminence's minimum order per speaker type. I find it really hard to believe that any small manufacturer is ordering speakers in 100's,I order certain transducers in much larger quantites than that, and I am a very small manufacturer. There is quite a difference between a cabinet/repair/recone shop and a small manufacturing operation.

The speaker maker wants to protect their client, the original dealer/maker wants to make his $$, so disguising, or making the specs hard to find,Can you write a transducer specification in advance that you can be sure will yield the performance you want? I've read your description of the process whereby you cloned antique speakers - which arguably raises significant ethical issues on its own - and it would appear that you were unable even to reverse engineer an existing transducer on your own. Some folks can actually perform loudspeaker engineering work, but we often use outside vendors to manufacture components we have engineered. The biggest names in professional loudspeakers - including Meyer, EAW, R-H, and Community - don't manufacture their own transducers. They all damn sure engineer those transducers, however, and they will only do businees with OEM vendors who respect their intellectual property. That's a fact....

The question of whether they've really "spec'd" a custom speaker is also suspectOnly to an individual who is truly incapable of writing a complete specification himself....

Junior Stephens

12-20-2008, 11:21 AM

Jay Mitchell: "Nope. I have nothing to sell to anyone here"

:agree

:stir

:munch

Jay Mitchell

12-20-2008, 11:49 AM

Jay Mitchell: "Nope. I have nothing to sell to anyone here"

:agree

:stir

:munchI do, OTOH, have some things to share with others here: http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=470956 . Unlike certain other individuals, I'm not trying to make a buck off of my participation in this forum.

BTW, the odds are pretty good that you've heard the results of my R&D work. Hell, you might even have been impressed. ;)

mbratch

12-20-2008, 12:00 PM

First, you haven't looked closely enough yet. You need to remove the rubber ring from the periphery of the magnet (Eminence doesn't bother putting this cosmetic item on their OEM speakers) to see the ISO-compliant label on the edge of the magnet.On some speakers, including Eminence, I've seen the label on the inside of one of the legs of the basket. You have to use a flashlight and look at it from the other side (or use a dental mirror) to see it.

DC1

12-20-2008, 12:16 PM

Jay Mitchell

12-20-2008, 12:17 PM

On some speakers, including Eminence, I've seen the label on the inside of one of the legs of the basket. You have to use a flashlight and look at it from the other side (or use a dental mirror) to see it.That's excellent info for those who are willing to do a little investigation of their own. Every tech worth his magnification visor has an inspection mirror or two. :banana

edgewound

12-20-2008, 01:51 PM

Jay is right about the problems with specs and speakers. Not only is power compression never included, try to get actual distortion specs out of most manufacturers.

It would be, ummm sobering, to see them, I assure you.

dc

Jay is most likely right about most of the things he posts. After all, he is a respected engineer in some high eschelon circles. Stating that power handling specs are useless is just incorrect. Otherwise there would be standards for that. Trying to make the rest of us seem stupid through citing engineering standards that aren't always useful in real world situations can often-times be oxymoronic though. It's a great tool for semantic argument...to prove your point. A few insults along the way thrown in for good measure, doesn't make me any more respectful of his points.

Premium loudspeaker manufacturers do cite the effects of power compression and the effects on frequency response and sensitivity. A guitar player is especially susceptible to power compression of a speaker in a guitar amp. The "tone" just goes away as the speaker heats up...if it's a relatively low power design with small voice coil and motor size.

Here's an example:
http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?docid=297&doctype=3

Distortion figures for a high sensitivity guitar speaker will be astronomical from a hi-fi point of view, but distortion is designed to this kind of transducer, a sound producer. Just like its supposed to be attempted to be designed out in a sound reproducer.

Anyway...it's not my intent to make enemies or have a pissing contest with those professionals that are more highly educated than myself. I share my experiences from my two decades of dealing with speakers in all situations. If someone wants to use my services, that's great. If not, I still won't withhold info that I've learned through my business/trade experience.

I'm not that anonymous either. My contact info is easily found with a few mouse clicks. "edgewound" is simply a moniker having to do with what I do for a living. I'm a lowly reconer, that also plays guitar in a gigging band. More of my experience to share with other musicians.

Hope everyone has a great, peaceful Holiday Season.

Jay Mitchell

12-20-2008, 02:44 PM

Stating that power handling specs are useless is just incorrect.No, they're really useless, because they are inaccurate and disconnected from anything that is relevant to real-world application. It is possible - not that difficult, really - to blow a 60 watt speaker with a 30 watt amp, and it is also possible to safely use a 30 watt speaker with an amp that can make 60+ watts. A single number for "power handling" really tells you nothing of real value about a transducer.

Over the past four years, I've provided technical support to two different independent loudspeaker testing labs in calibrating their test setups. One of them stopped performing the AES standard power handling test and developed their own testing methodology, because they were seeing repeated catastrophic device failures at power levels less than half of the speakers' rated power figures. These are speakers from manufacturers whose names you would definitely recognize (and transducer models that you have probably reconed). I want to stress that the failures were in speakers for which the manufacturers claimed to have applied the AES standard to arrive at the power ratings. Furthermore, the speakers that could survive their rated power performed so far outside their specified response and sensitivity ratings that they were not usable at their rated power.

Premium loudspeaker manufacturers do cite the effects of power compression and the effects on frequency response and sensitivity.They cite the effects, but they do not adjust the power ratings of their speakers to take those effects into account. For example, the JBL 2206, according to the manufacturer's specifications, loses 3.9 dB of its small-signal sensitivity when operated at its maximum power. The effect of this is the same as reducing the available amplifier power by 60%! In fact, the speaker loses 2.4 dB of sensitivty at half its rated power, which has the effect of a 42% reduction in power. Based on this information, the maximum power at which the speaker is actually useful (i.e., still has decent response and close to its rated 95dB sensitivity) is ~300 watts, and that's pushing matters quite a bit. Ergo my comment that their 600W power handling rating is useless. And pro audio manufacturers like this one do a far more thorough and accurate job of testing and disclosing their products' behavior at high power levels than the manufacturers of MI gear.

FWIW, I'm a past full-time pro and currently working guitarist myself, so I'm as well-grounded in the real world as anyone else participating here. Hands-on skills and technical understanding are not mutually exclusive.

edgewound

12-20-2008, 03:03 PM

They cite the effects, but they do not adjust the power ratings of their speakers to take those effects into account. For example, the JBL 2206, according to the manufacturer's specifications, loses 3.9 dB of its small-signal sensitivity when operated at its maximum power. The effect of this is the same as reducing the available amplifier power by 60%! In fact, the speaker loses 2.4 dB of sensitivty at half its rated power, which has the effect of a 42% reduction in power. Based on this information, the maximum power at which the speaker is actually useful (i.e., still has decent response and close to its rated 95dB sensitivity) is ~300 watts, and that's pushing matters quite a bit. Ergo my comment that their 600W power handling rating is useless. And pro audio manufacturers like this one do a far more thorough and accurate job of testing and disclosing their products' behavior at high power levels than the manufacturers of MI gear.

FWIW, I'm a past full-time pro and currently working guitarist myself, so I'm as well-grounded in the real world as anyone else participating here. Hands-on skills and technical understanding are not mutually exclusive.

I never said that latter part...about mutual exclusivity.

FWIW...the JBL 2206 that you've discussed has a published Pe of 300 watts....continuous sine wave power like they used to do in the old days.

The 600 watt rating is determines by AES standards for contiuous pink noise and many manufacturers are suggesting that a given speaker should be operated within a range of amp powers for clean headroom, usually 3-6dB more that the speakers power rating.

Yes...we know that amp clipping from a 30 watt solid state amp can fry a 60 watt speaker. But according to you from a previous discussion, a tube amp with an output transformer is incapable of doing that.

Maybe you should work on a new rating system. Or....just say" don't worry about how much power you have...it doesn't matter."

Jay Mitchell

12-20-2008, 04:04 PM

FWIW...the JBL 2206 that you've discussed has a published Pe of 300 watts....Take a look: http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/2206.pdf . I quote from that specification sheet: "Power Capacity - 600W continuos pink noise." There is no "Pe" figure of 300 watts anywhere in this data sheet.

The 600 watt rating is determined by AES standards for contiuous pink noiseI need no tutorial on this standard. Based on the information that JBL themselves provide, this figure is worthless. Were you to try to operate the speaker at this power level, it would lose 60% of its efficiency within 5 minutes or less, according to JBL's own published data.

and many manufacturers are suggesting that a given speaker should be operated within a range of amp powers for clean headroom, usually 3-6dB more that the speakers power rating.Amp power ratings are based on the ability to pass a sine wave unclipped. A sine wave has a crest factor (ratio of peak to average energy) of 3dB. Uncompressed music has a crest factor of more than 20 dB. An amplifier that can pass a maximum unclipped sine wave of 600 watts can cleanly pass an uncompressed typical music signal of about 12 watts! It is possible to safely use an amplifier rated at several times the speaker's power handling - in fact, if you don't want to squash the crap out of everything, it may be necessary - but that is not because you are actually applying all that nominal power to the speaker on a continuous basis. It is because the peaks in the program material need the extra available power in order to pass through unclipped.

Yes...we know that amp clipping from a 30 watt solid state amp can fry a 60 watt speaker. But according to you from a previous discussion, a tube amp with an output transformer is incapable of doing that.No. You are now attempting to rewrite history in a very self-serving manner. I correctly pointed out in the post to which you refer that a transformer-coupled output cannot apply a DC voltage to a load. This noncontroversial fact is trivially obvious to anyone with any knowledge of circuits.

Maybe you should work on a new rating system.Edit: Seriously, Pat Brown has come up with an excellent maximum output test: http://www.etcinc.us/tech/nl061_loudspeaker_toaster.pdf . This test will tell you the maximum signal level you can apply to a speaker without changing its response at any frequency by 3dB or more. It is the test his lab uses. My money says it will face resistance to widespread adoption, because it yields much smaller (and much more accurate) numbers than the manufacturers currently publish. Were a test like this to become the standard, you could actually use power handling numbers to tell you something useful about a speaker.

Or....just say" don't worry about how much power you have...it doesn't matter."Those are your words, not mine. I never said or implied that.

DC1

12-20-2008, 05:01 PM

Distortion figures for a high sensitivity guitar speaker will be astronomical from a hi-fi point of view, but distortion is designed to this kind of transducer, a sound producer. Just like its supposed to be attempted to be designed out in a sound reproducer.

I have only one little niggle from your response:

It's amazing how high the distortion figures can actually be in things that are intended to accurately reproduce audio. In fact, we make a lot of money by showing clients the difference. When we do, they buy ours, and not the other (big name) guy's stuff. I wish it was just guitar speakers that did this.

dc

Boogie Boy

12-20-2008, 05:45 PM

No, they're really useless, because they are inaccurate and disconnected from anything that is relevant to real-world application. It is possible - not that difficult, really - to blow a 60 watt speaker with a 30 watt amp, and it is also possible to safely use a 30 watt speaker with an amp that can make 60+ watts. A single number for "power handling" really tells you nothing of real value about a transducer..

I was pretty sure this was what you were implying from your original post

I've blown enough speakers over 25+ years to know just exactly that.

Experience you dont find in bedrooms or on a computer.

StompBoxBlues

12-21-2008, 03:53 AM

I think this thread has gotten way over the original point.

Look, for the last time, I'm not lazy, I have a dental mirror, I have a number of speakers that I can't even tell what model they are. People in real life trade out speakers so it can be a problem.

Some want to make this a huge technical discussion on the finer points, but in reality, that wasn't my point.

Even if there is no standardized power ratings, it is something. And the argument is pretty specious anyway, because the same guy complaining that there is no standard STILL (while wrongly insulting someone thinking the information would best be on the speaker itself) GOES ONLINE TO USE THAT SAME DATA apparently.

The impedance rating is a known. It is impedance at 1khz right? EVEN if not dead on, it is a guide that could save someone mismatching by mistake, and blowing an OT, or using up tubes.

Sensitivity is also, standardized or not, I have always heard a difference in volume between a 97db and a 100db speaker.

Again, it's not whining....it is something that would be simple A GOOD THING TO DO.

And while we are on this "well, they have to be competitive" kick, the Henry Ford business model "they can have any color, as long as it is black" is pretty much dead.

If the information is on a site, the cost is very little to add it to the label. They are already often adding their own codes in fact (that I am pretty sure include some information) already, just not readable by consumers.

They don't do it now, but it is totally valid to complain that it makes a lot more sense if they DID put that info on the actual speaker. Simple as that. It is elegant, it is useful, it would save people time, give certainty (if not actually, at least the same as you would get from the data sheet) and help. It would make sense.

It's too bad they don't do it. I had some ancient speakers in a univox cab, with some weird serial number (not even manufacturer name) and googled that and got ONE reference to it, sent email to the manufacturer, they were very helpful, but it took a few weeks of sending photos, waiting for replies, etc. even then, the helpful engineer couldn't tell me the "safe" or nominal power rating on it, they had discontinued the speaker decades ago.

That is kind of a waste.

Zimi

12-21-2008, 05:08 AM

I agree with you, useful info on the speaker would be great, but they weren't made that way and nothing is going to change that.

It would be a pain for the manufacturers, moreso in some cases. Let's take the old gold label Jensens for example. Instead of just one "one-size-fits-all" label to stick on the speakers they'd need a whole bunch...20w-12"-8 ohms; 20w-12"- 16 ohms; 25w-12"-8 ohms... That's a lot of stickers to keep up with, they have to be odered or made (to match the number of speakers made, do you stop production of a certain spec speaker because you're out of stickers?...or do you keep making them and then have to deal with storing them until the stickers come in...and them someone has to stop what he's doing to put stickers on...it could be a mess), made, stored, applied... My point is that some seemingly easy thing for a company to do could become a PITA for the company, and this extra time/labor doesn't improve the product one bit.

It would be nice to have the specs, but it isn't like that.

Jay Mitchell

12-21-2008, 07:45 AM

The impedance rating is a known. It is impedance at 1khz right?No, not even that is standardized. The minimum impedance of a nominal "8 ohm" loudspeaker can be anywhere from 4 to 8 ohms. The maximum impedance will occur at the resonant frequency and can be as high as 70-80 ohms. Some manufacturers observe a rule of thumb that the minimum impedance should be no less than 70% of the nominal impedance. That would make the minimum impedance of an "8 ohm speaker" about 5.6 ohms. One way to identify the approximate minimum impedance is to measure the DC resistance with a meter. This figure will be very close to the minimum.

Sensitivity is also, standardized or not, I have always heard a difference in volume between a 97db and a 100db speaker.There are multiple ways to measure sensitivity that can yield different numbers. Manufacturers would obviously tend to use the same method for all their products, so you can use their data for comparison between different speakers they manufacture. When comparing speakers from different manufacturers, however, you may find the comparison is not quite as reliable. The same is true of power handling ratings: within one manufacturer's product line, you can safely assume that a speaker with a higher rating will take more power than one with a lower rating.

If the information is on a site, the cost is very little to add it to the label.My first response is that, if the information is on a site, why is it a problem for you to access it? You obviously have a computer and Internet access, so why not just surf to the site and download the data you need? Secondly, the cost to add data to labels may be quite a bit more than you assume. The round labels you see on the back of the magnets are bought in large quantities (thousands to tens of thousands). If a manufacturer presently uses the same label for multiple models - as Eminence clearly does with the Legend series, for example - then doing as you suggest would require that they purchase several times as many labels, track them, apply them to the correct transducers (of which they are doing production runs in the thousands), etc., etc.

If you think about it, there's a lot of information in an amp's owner's manual - even on a spec sheet for the amp - that is not present on any labeling on the amp itself. I see no difference in the situation with speakers.

The situation of which you complain is certainly not unique to speakers, and it is highly unlikely to ever change. If you insist on having the most accurate, reliable data possible on your transducers, the only way to go is to purchase new ones. Even if you come up with the original specifications, there is no basis for an assumption that antique speakers would perform according to those specifications after decades of aging and use. They really do wear out and change with age.

stvnscott

12-21-2008, 08:11 AM

Disclousure: I am an Eminence OEM customer.

The fact of the matter is, with Eminence made speakers, they will put any label you want on them (unless it says Celestion LOL). You can design your own label or have them do it for you. You can have speakers supplied without labels. They will do anything for which you are willing to pay up to a point.

It is up to the CUSTOMER to determine what they want on the label, so slagging the OEM manufacturer makes no sense.

StompBoxBlues

12-21-2008, 01:40 PM

My first response is that, if the information is on a site, why is it a problem for you to access it? You obviously have a computer and Internet access, so why not just surf to the site and download the data you need? Secondly, the cost to add data to labels may be quite a bit more than you assume. The round labels you see on the back of the magnets are bought in large quantities (thousands to tens of thousands). If a manufacturer presently uses the same label for multiple models - as Eminence clearly does with the Legend series, for example - then doing as you suggest would require that they purchase several times as many labels, track them, apply them to the correct transducers (of which they are doing production runs in the thousands), etc., etc.

Well, like I've mentioned a few times, I have some where I don't know the manufacturer, some where I don't know the model (and tried to get online and identify it, but none of the current models look like the one I had to match), so there's that.

As far as labels, you guys are way overthinking this, the labels can stay the same, a rubber stamp with dye "8 ohm", "16 ohm" etc. would do the trick, and I have seen speaker with that info on them. THEY have to keep track anyway when they are manufacturing them (in order to put the correct label when they have them) so...

As far as sensitivity, okay, but they don't know which way to go to sell more do they? Or do they all assume higher numbers are better? You have lots of folks wanting to put less efficient speakers in (see current Soldano thread where someone was pleased their speakers were low efficiency so they could crank the amp a bit) and lots that want high efficiency for Deluxe Reverbs, etc.

I hear you about the impedance, but that is taking it way too far as I tried pointing out, the information I am after is a tiny fraction of the information they may (or may not) have on their website. The info you are asking why it is a problem to access, is the same info you are telling me is useless (or unreliable) but if a speaker is rated 8 ohms impedance, I am taking that to mean I can run an amp that expects 8 ohm impedance without risking damage on the amp

Other OEM stuff, like Peavey...bought a cabinet with a 15" "blue marvel" speaker in it. I wanted to use it with a non peavey amp, but can't find out what power handling it is rated at (wrongly or not, they rate them and we use those ratings) and don't want to blow the speaker.

Have some Carvin supplied speakers also in a combo, I traded out with other speakers, but no model number...no info. I can measure resistance and guess at impedance, but power rating, I just can never assume it can handle more than the amp it came out of I guess. Pretty pointless when it might be they can be paired up with some other amp...but I don't dare because it runs higher.

No, sorry, this one little thing (and a few rubber stamps and ink would do it) just causes tons of pain, hours wasted (looking up this stuff...I'm neither lazy or stupid, but without enough info it starts running into a lot of wasted time) and it is absolutely pointless. If some amp maker has some special speakers that are part of its magic and all, how in the world is knowing the impedance and power rating going to help someone duplicate or steal it?

I know, they aren't going to change, unless a lot of folks complained maybe, but it is a peeve...it is a bad way to do this...

By the way, I wonder if it is in the realm of possibility that you have the "engineer outlook" that sometimes doesn't take into account the end user so much? Not a knock, but in Information technology, I used to be a technician, am now programmer, but have known quite a few engineers software and hardware, and have seen close up that in a lot of cases, the end user is almost considered...well, basically a "pain in the ass". Guys that are great at "most efficient" etc. but sometimes come up with software that is just not useable by the intended end user, is too complex, etc., and often take an attitude that "it's the stupid users"...

It's something that would help a lot, just about everyone.

Scumback Speakers

12-21-2008, 04:38 PM

Only to an individual who is truly incapable of writing a complete specification himself....

Hey, I can be honest. I don't write speaker specs. And for good reason, I don't know how, NOR do I care to. Sorry if that is beneath you! LOL

What I did do was spend a pretty sizable chunk of cash on finding the best old Celestions available over five years and try to engage Celestion and Eminence in recreating them. Celestion didn't figure there was a market for them when I asked in 2003 and said no (then what do you know...Heritages appear in 2005). I talked to Eminence, too. They said they'd try to get as close as they could, but they wouldn't go so far as to match a particular speaker's exact tone. Not good enough for me, or my clients, either, I'm sorry to say. I wanted a speaker that sounded just like a few old pre rolas that I supplied them to recreate.

The only one who would take on this task was Ted Weber. Now, I'm not sure that Ted writes speaker specs, either, and once again, umm, I really don't care. The results speak volumes.

What he did do was deliver the tone I wanted for my line of speakers. I don't need to write a speaker spec, with Thiele-Small parameters and a whole bunch of other neat specifications if I have someone designing and producing my speakers to match my ideas of tone.

The OP was talking about simple, easy to find speaker specs for the end user, not an engineer, right where he could use it...on a label that's easy to find for the end user to know what the speaker's power handling, magnet, ohm rating and so forth is.

You may be an accomplished speaker designer, but you've completely taken off on this subject to left field and past the bull pen. Hell, the guys cooking out on their tailgates just waved goodbye to you.

Jay Mitchell

12-21-2008, 05:49 PM

Hey, I can be honest. I don't write speaker specs. And for good reason, I don't know how, NOR do I care to.However, it was you who said, "The question of whether they've really "spec'd" a custom speaker is also suspect." My comment was in direct response to that, and you've now admitted that you wouldn't recognize a custom specification if it bit you on the ass. You just shot yourself down on that one.

I don't need to write a speaker spec, with Thiele-Small parameters and a whole bunch of other neat specifications if I have someone designing and producing my speakers to match my ideas of tone.And you're in no position to be an OEM vendor as a result. Ergo, you are not qualified to pass judgement on OEM vendor/customer relationships. Fact is, you've been no help at all to the OP. At least I went to the trouble to show him how to find Eminence's specifications.

DC1

12-21-2008, 07:01 PM

Jay, play nice with the other kids, willya?

And BTW, Jim wrote every spec that mattered, and the proof is in the checks that all his clients write.

I have never heard more raving reports from users than I have on Jim's speakers.

Different market, different values.

dc

Scumback Speakers

12-21-2008, 07:20 PM

However, it was you who said, "The question of whether they've really "spec'd" a custom speaker is also suspect." My comment was in direct response to that, and you've now admitted that you wouldn't recognize a custom specification if it bit you on the ass. You just shot yourself down on that one.
Did I say you? No, I did not. But you obviously felt that statement applied to you the way you responded. There are a lot of Eminence clients that don't spec a speaker for themselves, you know. And frankly, you've kind of taken liberties with what I said. I'm going to go way out on a limb here and predict that if you were handed two unmarked speakers, one with a 30 watt coil, and one with any other coil rating, that you couldn't tell which was a "stock" spec, and which was a custom "spec"...unless, of course, you have X-Ray vision. :bow

And you're in no position to be an OEM vendor as a result. Ergo, you are not qualified to pass judgement on OEM vendor/customer relationships. Fact is, you've been no help at all to the OP. At least I went to the trouble to show him how to find Eminence's specifications.
Wow, I write in generalities about who orders some speakers from one speaker maker and you take it personally. WTF, you've got insecurity issues? :crazyguy

You need to lighten up, or switch to decaf, sir. Seriously. Ok, I know where this is going to go, so I'll bow out now and let you have the last word.

Jay, play nice with the other kids, willya?

And BTW, Jim wrote every spec that mattered, and the proof is in the checks that all his clients write.

I have never heard more raving reports from users than I have on Jim's speakers.

Different market, different values.

dc

Thanks DC1, I hope that post doesn't get you in the hot seat.

Tone_Terrific

12-21-2008, 07:46 PM

In my Yamaha amp, on the label, on the magnet:
JAS066
Impedance 8ohms
RMS power rating 60 watts
Peak Power rating 180 watts
Nippon Gakki Co., Ltd
Japan

So...the basic info is not always missing. OTOH the ratings seem VERY optimistic if you could see the speakers.
I think Roland (or somebody's) speakers actually include a little freq response graph on the label, accurate or not.

StompBoxBlues

12-22-2008, 01:17 AM

If you think about it, there's a lot of information in an amp's owner's manual - even on a spec sheet for the amp - that is not present on any labeling on the amp itself. I see no difference in the situation with speakers.

Just two small points and I will let this alone.

1) The above is just plain wrong in the context I gave. I was very clear on that I was ONLY asking for two (and hoping for three) parameters. Impedance, power rating, and while they were at it sensitivity, but that one was a "gimme". Your analogy here is off the mark. Almost all amps I know of have a label somewhere, usually easy to find, telling what voltage and mains frequency it will run on. They have quite a bit of other labelling too. Not all that is in the manual, but all that is important for BASIC use. This is the exact same type of information.

2) It IS the standard on electronics to label important information. How would you like to put together an amp with resistors that had cryptic model numbers, and you'd have to go to a site to find out the resistance, (or use your meter...)? We read the color code on a resistor to tell what resistance, we see the size of it to tell what kind of power handling....capacitors have either number codes or printed out on them...All resistors, capacitors, etc. are marked. Often transformers have some markings but may be more like a speaker, but the main thing is a speaker is a COMPONENT that often gets replaced or changed out in an amp. We've seen that it isn't as simple as "look up the model on site", where some don't have model numbers, some do. It's totally also up to the manufacturer if they will have that info on the net, it is also a question if they support discontinued, ALL OF THESE issues get solved by having the two basic, necessary info to be able to safely use the speakers printed on the speaker. It's that simple.

celestion101

12-22-2008, 01:34 AM

We provide any measurements that the OEM's want to see...Thiele Small, Klippel, etc....and our measurements are to AES standards. If you have a question, you can just email us and we can help out. Are saying that these should be included in the box when somebody buys a single speaker say from a retailer? That would be giving away key info that Celestion (nor any other builder I assume) would want floating around. I guess I am confused on what you are asking, sorry.

edgewound

12-22-2008, 03:37 AM

I don't see what's so cryptic about asking to print the power handling and impedance on an OEM speaker. The intended freq response can remain a proprietary ingredient. In all fairness though, with a used speaker, you have no idea where it's been...if it's been reconed...if the OEM markings have faded or have been wiped off. That's when it helps to have some experience of knowing a speaker by it's look, and giving a best estimate on what it actually is.

In the case of Celestion, e.g, each speaker is usually stamped with a "T" number followed by a series of four digits that would specify what recone kit goes in it. That's how Marshall branded speakers were/are.

Truth be told...in the mass produced OEM world....boutique amps aside...it's a matter of giving the minimum speaker capability to make the amp hopefully make it through the first year to satisfy the warranty...and the accountants.

Some amp manufacturers will give the option of name brand premium upgrades.

Yes....it's true....sometimes the accounting dept decides what goes in the amp.

I'm confident Mr. Mitchell will find egregious errors in this post though.

Jay Mitchell

12-22-2008, 07:29 AM

1) The above is just plain wrong in the context I gave. I was very clear on that I was ONLY asking for two (and hoping for three) parameters. Impedance, power rating, and while they were at it sensitivity,You specifically named an Eminence Legend - a non-OEM product - and I specifically told you how to identify the model number and find all that data. Did you even try to do what I suggested?

Your analogy here is off the mark. Almost all amps I know of have a label somewhere, usually easy to find, telling what voltage and mains frequency it will run on.All of which is required by law.

How would you like to put together an amp with resistors that had cryptic model numbers, and you'd have to go to a site to find out the resistance, (or use your meter...)?Your analogy is wrong. You are not talking about speakers you bought new, you're talking about used speakers that you removed from cabinets. Do you really think every electronic component inside an amplifier is (or should be) labeled with the information you'd need to use it in some other circuit? Do you really think anyone has an obligation to give you that information? I find it difficult to believe anyone could be so naive. If the information you demand should be anywhere, it should be on the cabinet from which you removed the speakers or in the owner's manual or specification sheet for that cabient. The pieces parts that the manufacturer of the amp/cabinet used are part of a whole, and it is that whole that constitutes the product they made and sold.

We read the color code on a resistor to tell what resistance,I don't know about you, but I buy all my circuit components new. I'm not in the habit of unsoldering and reusing resistors, capacitors, diodes., ICs, etc., but maybe I'm weird that way. I tend to do likewise with transducers....

but the main thing is a speaker is a COMPONENT that often gets replaced or changed out in an amp.Then you should get the requisite information about the new speaker you put in. The one you took out is kinda irrelevant at that point.....

Helpful hints: if you want to know impedance, measure the DC resistance and round up to the nearest standard value. That ain't rocket science. You do have a DMM, don't you? If not, you can buy a suitable one at Lowe's for $11.00. You can make a reasonable estimate of power handling by identifying the voice coil size. Speakers with 1" and 1.75" VCs are low-power types, and I would not use them with more than ~30 watts each maximum, regardless of the manufacturer's rating. Speakers with 2.5" and larger VCs will take quite a bit more power. If you're contemplating the use of a 4x6L6 or 4xEL34 amp with a single transducer, it really needs to have a 2.5" or larger VC.

Jay Mitchell

12-22-2008, 07:43 AM

I don't see what's so cryptic about asking to print the power handling and impedance on an OEM speaker.That is entirely up to the OEM customer. If you think, for example, that Fender should label all the speakers in their amps with that information, then you should contact them with your request. Ditto Marshall, Vox, etc., etc.

In all fairness though, with a used speaker, you have no idea where it's been...Bingo!!!! Give that man a cigar!. All the specs in the world are useless after a speaker has been out in the world for a decade or more.

Truth be told...in the mass produced OEM world....boutique amps aside...it's a matter of giving the minimum speaker capability to make the amp hopefully make it through the first year to satisfy the warranty...and the accountants.You're exactly right, and that is a major reason why tube amps ended up sounding so good.

The speakers used in tube amps were "hi-fi" ca. 1930, but by the 1950s, the hi-fi market had moved on. The one thing that distinguished guitar speakers from those used in other, more demanding applications was that guitar speakers were cheaply made. They had cheap, stamped baskets, wimpy little voice coils made with paper formers and one-piece cone/suspension assemblies, which are much cheaper to manufacturer than using a separate, more optimal part for the suspension. This applied across the board to every guitar amp made. And, you know what? Those cheaply-made speakers have become the sought-after "vintage" parts that folks are now trying desperately to clone.

The same kind of thinking is why there are so many open-back cabs out there. They were never used for their acoustic properties. In a combo configuration, the cabinet must have an open back in order for the tubes to have cooling air available. Note that "piggyback" setups invariably had closed cabs, because even the guitar amp manufacturers back then understood that they were better acoustically.

Some amp manufacturers will give the option of name brand premium upgrades.The guitar speakers that are sold as "premium" are generally no more expensive to manufacture than run-of-the-mill units. They just have some connection with particular "vintage" units, which were also cheaply made.

Yes....it's true....sometimes the accounting dept decides what goes in the amp.And that's how guitar amps got their sound. Sometimes bean counters accidentally do something good....

StompBoxBlues

12-22-2008, 09:33 AM

You specifically named an Eminence Legend - a non-OEM product - and I specifically told you how to identify the model number and find all that data. Did you even try to do what I suggested?

All of which is required by law.

Your analogy is wrong. You are not talking about speakers you bought new, you're talking about used speakers that you removed from cabinets. Do you really think every electronic component inside an amplifier is (or should be) labeled with the information you'd need to use it in some other circuit? Do you really think anyone has an obligation to give you that information? I find it difficult to believe anyone could be so naive. If the information you demand should be anywhere, it should be on the cabinet from which you removed the speakers or in the owner's manual or specification sheet for that cabient. The pieces parts that the manufacturer of the amp/cabinet used are part of a whole, and it is that whole that constitutes the product they made and sold.

I don't know about you, but I buy all my circuit components new. I'm not in the habit of unsoldering and reusing resistors, capacitors, diodes., ICs, etc., but maybe I'm weird that way. I tend to do likewise with transducers....

Then you should get the requisite information about the new speaker you put in. The one you took out is kinda irrelevant at that point.....

Helpful hints: if you want to know impedance, measure the DC resistance and round up to the nearest standard value. That ain't rocket science. You do have a DMM, don't you? If not, you can buy a suitable one at Lowe's for $11.00. You can make a reasonable estimate of power handling by identifying the voice coil size. Speakers with 1" and 1.75" VCs are low-power types, and I would not use them with more than ~30 watts each maximum, regardless of the manufacturer's rating. Speakers with 2.5" and larger VCs will take quite a bit more power. If you're contemplating the use of a 4x6L6 or 4xEL34 amp with a single transducer, it really needs to have a 2.5" or larger VC.

Man...you are just all kinds of wrong, and as a guy as smart as you I gotta figure it is just plain mean engineer stuff.

1) hey, guy, when you REMOVE the damned resistor you get to see the VALUE of it. What are you talking about reusing resistors for, the POINT is that you know what it was.

2) I only mentioned Eminence (maybe that is where the bug got to you) but I wasn't picking on them, MANY of the manufacturers do this.

3) you want to make this a "lazy" versus "not lazy" or like som stupid ass guy like me just "expects" the world. Man...something seriously wrong with you if you can't admit that labelling would be a good thing. And you can't. Obviously, forgetting about costs, forgetting about all that, JUST SIMPLY wouldn't it be a good thing to have that info on the actual speaker (not on the cab, because people trade out in the REAL WORLD speakers from cabs way more than they recone, etc.) if it could magically be there?

If you can be honest, YEAH...there is no way it isn't good. Your mumbo jumbo about "well, what if it was reconed, or..." is just ridiculous as you are advising to go on the net...which isn't going to tell you if THAT speaker has been reconed any better than the label would have right?
No loss, no gain.

But in NORMAL cases, since speakers are not cosmetically needing to be "pretty" what is the harm in doing what ALL OTHER COMPONENTS do, and labelling their value? "8 ohm impedance, 30 watt"....WOW...

I'm through trying with you, you've been insulting from post one, and you just don't make any sense, logically. You call me lazy for not going on the net (even though you don't know anything about what I have done) or for wanting an option that would be good.

If you can't see the inherent worth of it, you can't be reasoned with. There are virtually no drawbacks if you take the "oh my god it would put them out of business" out of it. Add in costs, and I don't know, but can't imagine it would be very costly, but you can't even say "yeah, it would be good, but..."

You're like a speaker-grinch.

Jay Mitchell

12-22-2008, 10:03 AM

1) hey, guy, when you REMOVE the damned resistor you get to see the VALUE of it.Often you do, but not always. What about when you REMOVE an IC or transformer you want to replace? Do those parts always have enough information on them for you to be able to replace them? In many cases, the answer is, "no." When you're replacing a speaker, however, you really need to know more about the amp you will be using it with than about the old speaker that came out of that amp.

What are you talking about reusing resistors for, the POINT is that you know what it was.If the resistor in question really needs to be replaced, the odds are good that you won't know what it was without a schematic of the amp, because the markings were obliterated when the resistor let the smoke out.

Man...something seriously wrong with you if you can't admit that labelling would be a good thing.You know, if you were to spend half the time dealing with what is that you spend ranting about what should be, you'd have already found all the data that you need on your used transducers.

Tone_Terrific

12-22-2008, 10:09 AM

So cool.
It's the 'net. One group takes pos'n a the other posture B and debate like a debating club.:boxer
The adversarial approach to research.
It really works well and I thank you all for the participation and information!:AOK

Dan S

12-22-2008, 10:36 AM

Speaker Grinch! :rotflmao:rotflmao

edgewound

12-22-2008, 11:07 AM

Bingo!!!! Give that man a cigar!. All the specs in the world are useless after a speaker has been out in the world for a decade or more.

Thanks, Jay! A little searching the net and you can find my address. I'll be expecting it's arrival:D

You're exactly right, and that is a major reason why tube amps ended up sounding so good.

I always hated the sound of cheap speakers and replaced them with JBL or EV. Numerous customers have also become converts after seeing the tone. Cheap speakers trap all that tube goodness inside, and make for a much more usable/versatile amp.

The guitar speakers that are sold as "premium" are generally no more expensive to manufacture than run-of-the-mill units. They just have some connection with particular "vintage" units, which were also cheaply made.

Again...my perception of a premium speaker is a big edgewound voice coil, big motor, cast frame....won't wimp out on a gig and lose it's tone.
The stamped frame, typical stuff with a high price tag isn't worth the hassle to me...but that's just me. Some guys like to brag about how many speakers they've blown...whatever.

And that's how guitar amps got their sound. Sometimes bean counters accidentally do something good....

That's rarefied air for the end user, indeed.

Jay....I hope you and your family have a great holiday season. I have learned some things by your posts, and for that, I thank you. Your delivery methods...well....you're just you...but I think I understand you.;)

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all.

Roccaforte Amps

12-22-2008, 11:17 AM

Virtually any and all of my other music gear either has a manual that comes with it, OR specs (the important ones anyway) on the unit.

Speakers though...my GAWD... I have speakers with NO model number on them, speakers with "generic" or unspecific model numbers (Eminence Legend it says...okay, but when I look it seems there are different variations), if you are LUCKY they will print the speaker impedance on the speaker...but I have yet to see sensitivity, or wattage printed on them.

HOW come they get away with this? It is a huge PITA to go try and look up specs on a speaker you have that you don't even know for sure the model, and when they make them specifically for amp manufacturers, forget about finding out...

It is starting to really tick me off. How in this day and age are thet getting away with this secrecy around their speakers?

Anyone else fed up? I didn't do a good enough job recording when I changed out some speakers, and now in one cab I have no idea what max rating is, so I don't dare use it with my 100w amp, etc.

There are "manufacturers" and there are "re-branders",
you just have to figure out who they are.
The re-branders 9 out of 10 times know nothing
about the product they sell, only how to hype it.
FYI

Ronsonic

12-22-2008, 06:13 PM

Man...you are just all kinds of wrong, and as a guy as smart as you I gotta figure it is just plain mean engineer stuff.

1) hey, guy, when you REMOVE the damned resistor you get to see the VALUE of it. What are you talking about reusing resistors for, the POINT is that you know what it was.

If you can be honest, YEAH...there is no way it isn't good. Your mumbo jumbo about "well, what if it was reconed, or..." is just ridiculous as you are advising to go on the net...which isn't going to tell you if THAT speaker has been reconed any better than the label would have right?
No loss, no gain.

But in NORMAL cases, since speakers are not cosmetically needing to be "pretty" what is the harm in doing what ALL OTHER COMPONENTS do, and labelling their value? "8 ohm impedance, 30 watt"....WOW...

You're like a speaker-grinch.

You keep insisting that all other components have their values printed on them and this is simply not true of any part that is made to the OEM's spec. Pull a transistor, diode, IC or transformer and see if you can make sense of the numbers printed thereon. Sometimes you can, often not.

Don't just single out speakers for this criticism. They simply sell what is requested. Manufacturers do not request that their specs be printed on their speakers.

We can argue about whether this is a good or bad thing, but regardless of our preferences the speaker manufacturer is not going to print things on the speaker that the customer does not want printed there.

StompBoxBlues

12-24-2008, 03:42 AM

You keep insisting that all other components have their values printed on them and this is simply not true of any part that is made to the OEM's spec. Pull a transistor, diode, IC or transformer and see if you can make sense of the numbers printed thereon. Sometimes you can, often not.

Don't just single out speakers for this criticism. They simply sell what is requested. Manufacturers do not request that their specs be printed on their speakers.

We can argue about whether this is a good or bad thing, but regardless of our preferences the speaker manufacturer is not going to print things on the speaker that the customer does not want printed there.

More components DO have the vital information in some form on the parts. Not all, but it is much better than not having it when practical. I can't see that is it practical to NOT put them on speakers.

Look, Jay keeps arguing contradictory sides to stifle this...on the one hand telling that those numbers are "easily available" (when not all are), then arguing the numbers don't mean anything so you can't rely on them, then arguing that the numbers would be wrong if the speaker were too old, or reconed, etc... just nuts.

This is NOT laziness, and an engineer ought to be the first guy to have insight that this causes unneeded waste of peoples time.

It isn't just ME, times that times how many folks on this planet are trying to change out a speaker and find no info on the very basic ratings of it.
For 90% of our purposes, standardized or not, if we pull an 8 ohm, 25 watt speaker out of an amp, we then feel safe in putting another in with same specs even from another manufacturer. I'll take the chance it was reconed, or barely on the brink of blowing (underdesigned) etc.

But the sheer man hours, of people having to do that is totally wasted time. It's a shame.

"Pull a transistor, diode, IC or transformer".....look, diodes are less critical and size will tell you something, transistors, IC's, sure, you gotta look up the data sheet, but can we get real here?

WAY MORE PEOPLE trade out speakers, or even just buy speaker cabs and need to know if they can match it up to their amp. The numbers would tell them. Speakers have been for a long time "tradeable parts" in amps, diodes, IC's, even trafos, the general public doesn't do all that much mix n match with. Speakers, most guitarists at some point add a cabinet, buy new speakers, etc.

You can measure the ohms and get a good guess as to impedance, but power ratings...I don't know any way too guess at that with any chance of being right.

It just ends up wasting people's time, sometimes as I say you never find out what the ratings are, and it can be fatal to your amp if you take a chance and are wrong. Waste, waste, waste...waste of time, waste of materiel (if you have to buy a new OT, or speaker), just a waste. Unneccessary.

So, gang up guys, I'm so lazy and stupid, I think there is a much better way to handle this, and yeah, I'm singling out speakers because that is what the subject is and speakers are the items that probably along with tubes get MOST traded out in amps.

Jay Mitchell

12-24-2008, 08:03 AM

Look, Jay keeps arguing contradictory sides to stifle this...:horse

<archiebunker mode>"Stifle yerself, Edith." </archiebunker mode>

voodoochile

12-24-2008, 08:27 AM

Nope. I have nothing to sell to anyone here, nor any affiliation with anyone who "engages in the business of making or selling music gear." FWIW, there are moderators here who are well aware of my professional circumstances, and they have so far not raised any issues.

Define "the business." It is my position that I am in a completely different business from amp, instrument, and effects makers. I compete with none of these folks. Furthermore, conveying basic facts related to audio can hardly be characterized as "sniping," just because they happen to contradict allegations made by others.

Well if nothing else, please tell us where to buy your products, so I can avoid doing business with you. You know a lot about the topic (arguably)- you just have a rude, arrogant, and condescending attitude which many people do not welcome here. Why do you have to resort to being this way when someone asks a legitimate question? Provide your viewpoint in a positive tone and move on.

Jay Mitchell

12-24-2008, 08:53 AM

Well if nothing else, please tell us where to buy your products, so I can avoid doing business with you.No worries, you won't have the option.

aman74

12-24-2008, 11:20 AM

Well if nothing else, please tell us where to buy your products, so I can avoid doing business with you. You know a lot about the topic (arguably)- you just have a rude, arrogant, and condescending attitude which many people do not welcome here. Why do you have to resort to being this way when someone asks a legitimate question? Provide your viewpoint in a positive tone and move on.

This, to me, is the problem with this thread and debates like this in general.

Since quoting someone who quoted someone else causes the original quote to disappear (something I never understood), here it is:

Originally Posted by Jay Mitchell http://img.thegearpage.net/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=5221469#post5221469)
Nope. I have nothing to sell to anyone here, nor any affiliation with anyone who "engages in the business of making or selling music gear." FWIW, there are moderators here who are well aware of my professional circumstances, and they have so far not raised any issues.

Define "the business." It is my position that I am in a completely different business from amp, instrument, and effects makers. I compete with none of these folks. Furthermore, conveying basic facts related to audio can hardly be characterized as "sniping," just because they happen to contradict allegations made by others.

What was so condescending and arrogant about that? The guy's just responding honestly. He may speak plainly and directly, but it's not his fault that people are frustrated by fact and reason.

On the first page several people jumped in and bashed him for saying power ratings were meaningless, when in this case they clearly are. I notice noone came back to that point with a reasonable reply once the facts were stated.

Then he's bashed for not being on topic when he did offer his opinion about that in his first post and most posts after that were trying to clear up other's disagreements. It's fine to disagree, but don't get red in the face when someone has an opposing opinion.

And why did my font change just because I copied and pasted a quote :)

Happy Holidays to all, give yourself a gift and open your mind a bit.

aman74

12-24-2008, 11:30 AM

First off, I'm not a moderator... that said, there's a couple of problems in this thread:

Jay Mitchell, if you're affiliated with a company that produces anything musical, you need to put that in your signature. It's required around here; see the FAQ (rule 8 I believe).

Next, it's totally uncool for people in the business to snipe at another here.

We now return to our regularly scheduled program.

Well, the first point seems to be only a problem based on your presumptions.

To the second point, why aren't manufacturers and dealers allowed to be as nice or as nasty as the rest of us?

Ronsonic

12-24-2008, 11:58 AM

"Pull a transistor, diode, IC or transformer".....look, diodes are less critical and size will tell you something, transistors, IC's, sure, you gotta look up the data sheet, but can we get real here?

WAY MORE PEOPLE trade out speakers, or even just buy speaker cabs and need to know if they can match it up to their amp. The numbers would tell them. Speakers have been for a long time "tradeable parts" in amps, diodes, IC's, even trafos, the general public doesn't do all that much mix n match with. Speakers, most guitarists at some point add a cabinet, buy new speakers, etc.

You can measure the ohms and get a good guess as to impedance, but power ratings...I don't know any way too guess at that with any chance of being right.

Most amp manufacturers do not consider their speakers or other components to be interchangeable parts. These are things they designed, spec'ed or just ordered from a catalog to suit their purposes in their products and they don't give a damn about what someone else wants to do with them.

As for the other parts; diodes, transistors and the like very often have an OEM part number. You cannot imagine how I wish it were just a matter of looking up the datasheet. Regular diodes look no different from zeners, and zeners all look alike, especially when they're blown which is when I have the most interest in them. Same for transformers, once they're blown you're on your own to figure out what was in there.

Again, this is all up to the OEM to decide. Aftermarket speakers are usually pretty informative, at least having a name and/or model number you can look up. I think you're singling out speakers for a bum rap here. They mark their products with exactly what the customer wants to see on it. For the OEM post-consumer, trailer-trash recycle convenience is a very, very low priority.

Hell, I'd like to see speakers marked with whether they just suck because the OEM ordered the cheapest thing they could find or whether they actually sound any good. That won't happen either.

Scumback Speakers

12-24-2008, 12:47 PM

Hell, I'd like to see speakers marked with whether they just suck because the OEM ordered the cheapest thing they could find or whether they actually sound any good. That won't happen either.

:roll Great post. Merry Xmas! :AOK

waxnsteel

12-24-2008, 02:43 PM

By your admonition....you don't give a rat's ass what you deliver because it doesn't matter.

Did you think he was punishing himself for something, or do admission?

2555SL

12-25-2008, 07:13 AM

When I read the title of this thread I had no idea what bantor I would find inside, yet I`m certainly glad that I took the time to read through all of these pages.

It taught me that I would feel very comfortable purchasing anything Jay Mitchell was involved in the manufacture of (not that I would even have the option), and that I will never buy a speaker -- or any other product -- that has the label "Scumback" or "Weber" attached to it.

I`ll stick with my EVs and Celestians, thank you.

Scumback Speakers

12-25-2008, 07:20 AM

I`ll stick with my EVs and Celestians, thank you.

It's spelled Celestion. I guess you don't read or have the labels on the backs of your speakers. ;) Happy Holidays!

2555SL

12-25-2008, 07:33 AM

It's spelled Celestion, thank you. ;)

No sir. Mine are labeled "Celestian" with an "a". But keep in mind, that`s because I order them labeled that way from the OEM.

Scumback Speakers

12-25-2008, 07:48 AM

No sir. Mine are labeled "Celestian" with an "a". But keep in mind, that`s because I order them labeled that way from the OEM.
Yeah, MusicToyz does the same thing I guess.

http://www.musictoyz.com/guitar/gtrstuff/celestian.php

I would love to see pics of your "Celestian" labels when you can get around to posting them. :D

aman74

12-25-2008, 08:31 AM

It's spelled Celestion. I guess you don't read or have the labels on the backs of your speakers. ;) Happy Holidays!

If you are going to make snide comments it would be much more interesting if they weren't so cheap as to knock someone's spelling...and then it turns out you were actually wrong about said spelling. That's classic.

aman74

12-25-2008, 08:32 AM

Did you think he was punishing himself for something, or do admission?

So another guy picking on word usage errors and then leaving out a couple words himself. Nice.

Scumback Speakers

12-25-2008, 08:40 AM

If you are going to make snide comments it would be much more interesting if they weren't so cheap as to knock someone's spelling...and then it turns out you were actually wrong about said spelling. That's classic.

It's pretty obvious that you didn't click on the Music Toyz link, sir. When you click on it, they have "Celestion" speakers on the page, not "Celestian" speakers. I guess you don't play or own Celestion or Celestians, either...or do you and just aren't familiar with the spelling?

aman74

12-25-2008, 08:52 AM

It's pretty obvious that you didn't click on the Music Toyz link, sir. When you click on it, they have "Celestion" speakers on the page, not "Celestian" speakers. I guess you don't play or own Celestion or Celestians, either...or do you and just aren't familiar with the spelling?

I'm familar with Celestions and the spelling. The point was that I don't care if someone spelled it wrong or not.

I'm not sure what musictoyz has to do with any of this. Are these even the one's 2555SL is talking about and why would or should that be obvious to me?

You posted a link to musictoyz without any frame of reference so I have no idea what it is supposed to prove.

I'll take the posters word that he has some spelled with an A. Whether true or not is irrelevant. You chose to knock someone for a simple error in spelling. It may not even have been an error, but I don't think you or I have his speakers in our possession to verify.

Scumback Speakers

12-25-2008, 09:16 AM

You posted a link to musictoyz without any frame of reference so I have no idea what it is supposed to prove.

Ok, fine, I'll spell it out for you. It was a poke in fun at the spelling that 2555SL used, and that musictoyz used the same spelling. The link I posted has "Celestian" in the link name. When you get there, there are no "Celestian" speakers there, just Celestion speakers. There's the reference.

aman74

12-25-2008, 09:22 AM

Ok, I see, I thought maybe you had actually posted something to try and make a point or even respond to what I actually wrote.

Scumback Speakers

12-25-2008, 09:25 AM

Well, yeah, actually I did respond to you, and made a point as well.

aman74

12-25-2008, 09:36 AM

Well, yeah, actually I did respond to you, and made a point as well.

The first point I made was that it's petty to pick on spelling.

The second point I made was that it turns out that he had actually spelled it correctly since he requested them that way.

You may have quoted me, but you certainly didn't address anything I said. Don't bother though, I'm done with this discussion and off to have a pleasant holiday.

waxnsteel

12-25-2008, 12:08 PM

So another guy picking on word usage errors and then leaving out a couple words himself. Nice.

Man, I thought you'd get it? :P Actually I don't know how those words didn't make it. It should say, "or did you mean admission?" But yeah, I do kinda have a bug up my ass about people using words without knowing what they mean, but I suppose that's my problem. Happy Thursday.

aman74

12-25-2008, 02:19 PM

Man, I thought you'd get it? :P Actually I don't know how those words didn't make it. It should say, "or did you mean admission?" But yeah, I do kinda have a bug up my ass about people using words without knowing what they mean, but I suppose that's my problem. Happy Thursday.

Maybe we all just need to take a deep breath and relax.

Of course I got what you meant, but I'm sure you got what he meant as well. You made an error yourself, so it can happen to the best of us.

We often have a difficult enough time discussing the broader issues that pointing out word usage and spelling errors can only muck things up further.

2555SL

12-25-2008, 04:23 PM

I'm familar with Celestions and the spelling. The point was that I don't care if someone spelled it wrong or not.

I'm not sure what musictoyz has to do with any of this. Are these even the one's 2555SL is talking about and why would or should that be obvious to me?

You posted a link to musictoyz without any frame of reference so I have no idea what it is supposed to prove.

I'll take the posters word that he has some spelled with an A. Whether true or not is irrelevant. You chose to knock someone for a simple error in spelling. It may not even have been an error, but I don't think you or I have his speakers in our possession to verify.

Gentlemen, gentlemen. My mistake, and please allow me to put an end to this. Yes, my original post was a typographical error. Simple as that. I`m 47, and I know what a Celestion is and how it`s spelled. And yes, I was having a little fun with Southbay when I replied to his nit-picky post.

Every speaker I have ever owned was purchased pre-installed in the combo or extension cabinet by the "amplifier manufacturer".

Now back to reality, I found this thread very interesting and have now learned a great deal about guitar-amp speakers from Jay Mitchell`s posts (thanks, Jay!). I rarely see this type of expertise contributing to this forum, and honestly, to me it`s a breath of fresh air. It`s quite simple to distinguish between those that are here to contribute and those that are here to use this forum as a free hype machine for whatever they are attempting to sell.

Once again, I`ll stick with my EVs and Celestions.

Cheers.

StompBoxBlues

12-25-2008, 04:44 PM

Gentlemen, gentlemen. My mistake, and please allow me to put an end to this. Yes, my original post was a typographical error. Simple as that. I`m 47, and I know what a Celestion is and how it`s spelled. And yes, I was having a little fun with Southbay when I replied to his nit-picky post.

Every speaker I have ever owned was purchased pre-installed in the combo or extension cabinet by the "amplifier manufacturer".

Now back to reality, I found this thread very interesting and have now learned a great deal about guitar-amp speakers from Jay Mitchell`s posts (thanks, Jay!). I rarely see this type of expertise contributing to this forum, and honestly, to me it`s a breath of fresh air. It`s quite simple to distinguish between those that are here to contribute and those that are here to use this forum as a free hype machine for whatever they are attempting to sell.

Once again, I`ll stick with my EVs and Celestions.

Cheers.

I would llike to just mention too....

People reading the exchanges here might get the idea that I don't respect Jay and that would be wrong. I am totally in opposition to his apparent stand on the main point, that I KNOW it would be in everyone's best interest if the manufacturers of speakers all agreed to supply the impedance and especially (or if could choose only one spec that was mandated to be on the back of the speaker...) power rating, and I feel he is wrong on that point, I am also 100% sure that Jay has forgotten more about speakers than I will ever know.

He obviously is WAY ahead of me on speaker manufacturing, speaker specs, considerations, theory of operation, and manufacturing practices than I ever will be.

I just happen to be right that it would be a benefit to the guitarists world if they did include some of those specs on the actual speaker.
The time "wasted" times the number of people that ought to be able to see what a speaker is in its barest sense just by peering into a combo, or opening the back on a cabinet is probably huge.

It's been an interesting ride, but I do totally respect Jay's (and others that totally opposed this for some reason, here) expertise, and am humbled by their knowledge.

Just felt I had to say it. I think the arguments against are a little elitist, and "techie" and the sort of thing that get too esoteric when someone is deep in a subject. What I mean is, ALL electronic components have some component of all other electronic components, when you get to the atomic or miniscule level. Transistors are like diodes, but have capacitance, and resistance, and inductance, and can be seen as current sources, etc. but when calculating "usage" one has to consider the usage...meaning the capacitance may (in some application) be negligable, where in another application may be important. Transistor theory dictates that you use different "approximations" depending on usage. Some are really basic, some are really detailed. The engineer, or technician makes a judgement when designing as to which approximation is appropriate. It would be a mistake, and overkill, to take into consideration the capacitance of a transistor when the application is using the transistor as a simple on/off switch.

But with speakers, we are in a twilight zone of sorts, because the main opposition to this seem to mainly be saying "look, you can go on the net (you lazy bastard) and look up those specs" at the same time as they say "the numbers shouldn't be printed on the speakers themselves, because you non-techies shouldn't be messing with trading out speakers, and have to know how the amp was designed to even begin to think about doing that". Which is arguing out of both sides of the mouth.

I mean, either remove ALL info on any speaker, or else put the same info ON the speaker, because it really is only at the time of manufacture that those specs are assured, and known. There is no assurance that those specs will be there tomorrow, as a company may go bankrupt, or discontinue the speaker and remove all specs for it, or change the spec on a certain model without changing the model number, or you may have a speaker that has NO markings on it (I have some like that) or some model number and no manufacturers name on it (I have some like that too, and would like to try them out, but am wary because I don't know what they once WERE rated at for power. Sure they are old, and may not handle the same power as they did when first made, but at LEAST I could know what they WERE rated at!)

Do I make any sense here to you?

big mike

12-25-2008, 05:52 PM

what...the.....f......

I don't even know where to start.

KNOCK IT OFF.

StompBoxBlues

12-25-2008, 06:45 PM

what...the.....f......

I don't even know where to start.

KNOCK IT OFF.

I have no idea what you mean with this...

big mike

12-25-2008, 06:49 PM

Me Neither.

Bickering, manufacturers getting into it, personal attacks. the whole 9 yards.

StompBoxBlues

12-25-2008, 07:06 PM

Me Neither.

Bickering, manufacturers getting into it, personal attacks. the whole 9 yards.

Your post was right after mine, where I extended a hand to jay and others saying I totally respected their expertise, and was just (even though they know way more than I) in disagreement, and explaining why.

Was trying to minimize the rift, and just get back to pure ideas, no attacks and no "9 yards" but just simply why I started this thread.

2555SL

12-25-2008, 07:07 PM

what...the.....f......

I don't even know where to start.

KNOCK IT OFF.

My apologies in advance, Big Mike, yet I do chuckle somewhat when people point out typographical errors. No worries, it's all good.

To StompBoxBlues, I understand your above post -- as well as your original post -- yet I will have to side with Jay Mitchell on this one.

Personally, I found Jay's input to be very enlightening, and I'm quite surprised that anyone's feathers got ruffled. I love direct, no-nonsense posts, especially when backed by true expertise on a subject. I did not take his posts as elitist at all, and as I posted previously, I much prefer learning things on this forum to reading page-after-page of hype from boutique amp builders, their fans, etc.

One of the main points that Jay was making -- and if I read it correctly, was also supported by the N. American Celestion rep -- was that it is not the duty of EOM speaker builders to provide all of the information you would like to see, and in fact, a lot of those specs are maybe proprietary, especially when manufactured for an amplifier manufacturer. Like he stated (and, I paraphrase), if a person wants to learn the specs of a certain speaker that sits in a certain combo or cab, then it's maybe best to contact the amp company. I agree with you that it would be nice if every EOM stamped the ohms and power rating on every speaker, yet I'm probably like the majority of folks -- aside from those on this board -- that don't go buying used speakers off the bay or scavenge them from wayward cabs. If I did, my commense sense would tell me to get online and do my own footwork to find out the details about whatever speaker that might be in my possession.

By the way, I found Jay's posts so enlightening that I instantly decided to find and read his previous posts in other threads on this forum. Some pretty good stuff there, and I was surprised that I had never read any of his posts prior to this thread. I, for one, feel very lucky that people like him even take the time to contribute.

Cheers.

Zimi

12-25-2008, 07:14 PM

2555SL

12-25-2008, 07:24 PM

Something that might be overlooked is the possibility, or probability, that the amp manufacturers don't want the speaker specs given out. That way they can have the specs changed and the general public doesn't know.

That could be very true, and in my opinion, that's their right to do. It's maybe also a little like recipes, whether they be for bread, shampoo, or guitar speakers. For me, if my shampoo suddenly were to not do the trick, then I'd just try another brand. Same with food. Same with anything, really.

big mike

12-25-2008, 07:52 PM

Your post was right after mine, where I extended a hand to jay and others saying I totally respected their expertise, and was just (even though they know way more than I) in disagreement, and explaining why.

Was trying to minimize the rift, and just get back to pure ideas, no attacks and no "9 yards" but just simply why I started this thread.

Sorry for the confusion, my post was not in regards to yours, which have been perfectly acceptable.

StompBoxBlues

12-26-2008, 04:37 AM

My apologies in advance, Big Mike, yet I do chuckle somewhat when people point out typographical errors. No worries, it's all good.

To StompBoxBlues, I understand your above post -- as well as your original post -- yet I will have to side with Jay Mitchell on this one.

Personally, I found Jay's input to be very enlightening, and I'm quite surprised that anyone's feathers got ruffled. I love direct, no-nonsense posts, especially when backed by true expertise on a subject. I did not take his posts as elitist at all, and as I posted previously, I much prefer learning things on this forum to reading page-after-page of hype from boutique amp builders, their fans, etc.

One of the main points that Jay was making -- and if I read it correctly, was also supported by the N. American Celestion rep -- was that it is not the duty of EOM speaker builders to provide all of the information you would like to see, and in fact, a lot of those specs are maybe proprietary, especially when manufactured for an amplifier manufacturer. Like he stated (and, I paraphrase), if a person wants to learn the specs of a certain speaker that sits in a certain combo or cab, then it's maybe best to contact the amp company. I agree with you that it would be nice if every EOM stamped the ohms and power rating on every speaker, yet I'm probably like the majority of folks -- aside from those on this board -- that don't go buying used speakers off the bay or scavenge them from wayward cabs. If I did, my commense sense would tell me to get online and do my own footwork to find out the details about whatever speaker that might be in my possession.

By the way, I found Jay's posts so enlightening that I instantly decided to find and read his previous posts in other threads on this forum. Some pretty good stuff there, and I was surprised that I had never read any of his posts prior to this thread. I, for one, feel very lucky that people like him even take the time to contribute.

Cheers.

First to Big Mike, no problem ! Thanks,

Now... somehow we are pretending that I said something completely different than I did. Some people as above, are implying I was requesting ALL the speaker specs on the actual speaker. Also there is a pretend world somehow in here where just knowing the impedance and power rating, someone would have no problem duplicating the speaker.
C'mon folks, if that were the case we'd only ever need one 8 ohm 25 watt speaker and they would all sound the same.

We disagree on how many folks "scavange" (sounds pretty deragatory also, which seems to imply disapproval of making use of goods, also of experimenting which could give you a new tone you've been searching for) combos for thier speakers. In my experience, completely forgetting about this forum, MANY guitarists "scavange"...by far the majority. Someone gets ahold of a dead combo, or one dies on them, they won't spend the money to fix it, they at the very least take out the speakers and save them. Way in the majority in my experience.

I didn't mean elitist also in the way you seem to think. I don't mean like "putting on airs" I mean (and explained with the transistor approximation example) someone who genuinely knows about something at several deep levels, when talking with someone whoe only knows the subject shallowly, can tend to be elite in that they know so much that the other person doesn't they have a tendancy to think or say something like "you shouldn't even be messing around with these things". but when it comes to speakers, the fact is, people do, and will continue to.

When you write:"If I did, my commense sense would tell me to get online and do my own footwork to find out the details about whatever speaker that might be in my possession." I just give up. Somehow this turns into a morality tale, where it keeps getting this pretense that this has to do with work ethic and laziness. I have pointed out WAY too many times, but here we go again:

1) This waste, if the person only wanted to know the power rating, of time is multiplied by every person that wants to use a speaker in an amp. it is totally needless.

2) Not all speakers can be found out on the net. You don't always even know the manufacturer, you don't always have a model number, and not every speaker made is supported on the net with specs.

3) You cannot be sure always that the speaker you find on the net IS THE SAME speaker you are holding in your hand while trying to find it.

4) Sometimes you have to email back and forth, can take days, weeks, and all this just to find out if you can use a speaker safely without exceeding the power rating. Yeah...that is a good use of time, when if it were printed on the speaker, would take the speed of light to find out.

It's like super avoidance of the actual issue, and just saying "well, Jay knows speakers so I side with him on this", with some faux moralaity thing in there, when all I'm talking about is the practical.

Those issues are smoke and mirrors. No ones "secret recipe" for a speaker is going to get leaked because someone knows the rated impedance and power. Not all information is on the net, not all speakers are even identifiable, and there is no certainty that the one you are looking up matches the specs you find online when you can find them.
All those points would be moot, if they just printed it on the speaker.

Also Celstionoionion (sorry...had to do that) does on at least a number of speakers print quite a bit of info. Some manufacturers do this. I think it is great.

Even just talking global warming and the environment, the more info out there means the less waste of perfectly good speakers that no one can find the specs on.

LZ_69

12-26-2008, 12:26 PM

2555SL,

I kind of agree with you in that most people wouldn't go scavenging for speakers but I can see someone searching for an identical model replacement for a blown speaker or in some cases an old speaker if the new one available doesn't sound the same or if it's no longer available.

Again since some of the old speaker manufactures are not still around you may need to get one reconed; or fixed as Stompbox put it, and also it may be cheaper then buying a brand new one.

I think it wouldn't hurt to have a label with at least the manufacturer name, wattage ratings, and speaker impedance because you can't always count on getting info from the amp/cabinet builder because they may go broke, sell out, or just quit making amps. Sure you can search the net for info but it's not always relable.

What model EV speakers do you use in your amps?

Jerrod

12-26-2008, 01:05 PM

So are all manufacturers gonna start putting full specifications on their transducers, or what?

Scott Peterson

12-26-2008, 01:19 PM

Let's relax with the personal attack thing; disagree with the post, not the poster.

Warnings sent out. Take it down a notch. Or two. Or three.

edgewound

12-26-2008, 02:49 PM

Some amp makers don't want to advertise that the speaker supplied actually came from China...

Translation...cheaper than dirt.

Jay Mitchell

12-26-2008, 03:02 PM

Some amp makers don't want to advertise that the speaker supplied actually came from China...

Translation...cheaper than dirt.You might be surprised at just how many "premium" transducers were made in China....

edgewound

12-26-2008, 03:08 PM

You might be surprised at just how many "premium" transducers were made in China....

Not really.

RCCola

12-26-2008, 04:04 PM

To the OP, I think your complaint is not specific to speakers (as one poster already mentioned). There's a lot of equipment that could be labeled better, but it's not a big deal. I think it's an exception that all of your music gear came with a manual and/or technical documentation. Most of my gear is vintage. Only one or two pieces of my music gear came with a manual, but it wasn't difficult for me to find info on the gear.

And, again, it's highly possible a speaker could have had labels removed before reaching you.

That said, I've bought dozens of speakers (some that came in speaker cabinets) and I've never had a problem identifying them. All my older speakers had a stamp on the frame. Newer ones always had a sticker on the side of the magnet.

edgewound

12-26-2008, 04:12 PM

I think this whole argument has gotten to be bigger than it needs to be by piling on the OP.

His complaint was power handling and impedance missing from most OEM speakers.

What's the big deal? He has just as much right to be irked as the next guy that thinks a Les Paul is too heavy.

Maybe a liitle research into how speakers are made and arrive at how much power thay can and can't handle is merited, but there are many variables than one can't see on the outside that can dermine power handling. Some speakers are made in regions that don't have any real oversight into being truthful by any set standards.

I thinks he has a point.....and that's my opinion.

DC1

12-26-2008, 04:17 PM

DC1

12-26-2008, 04:18 PM

Hey Edgewound,

I've been meaning to ask you:

Is there a factory EVM12L recone kit out there, or all they all generics?

If they are generics, are they any good?

TIA

dc

edgewound

12-26-2008, 04:24 PM

Hey Edgewound,

I've been meaning to ask you:

Is there a factory EVM12L recone kit out there, or all they all generics?

If they are generics, are they any good?

TIA

dc

I've never reconed an EVM 12L with aftermarket parts....for good reason. Only genuine EV.

and...YW

DC1

12-26-2008, 04:28 PM

I've never reconed an EVM 12L with aftermarket parts....for good reason. Only genuine EV.

and...YW

Someone told me that only generic parts were available...

Interesting.

dc

Junior Stephens

12-28-2008, 11:01 PM

I was going to just sit and watch this one, but I have a point or two to make.

Just a few observations:

If an amp manufacture puts Blues in their amps...they are damn well having the normal sticker on the back, and hell even a sticker on the front and the top of the amp to let "you the consumer" know that they have put the very best, or what is perceived as the very best, in the amp.

That's a fact. You know it's true.

Argue this with me.

I will spend the time to hunt down all the info and prove it...

The amp manufacture -is not- going to let you miss this added value they have put in an amp.

Also, if there is a Mr. Speakerman no name speaker in the amp, they sure as hell aren't going to mention it anywhere. And they are going to leave that speaker a blank as they can, so you don't know how cheap they were.

And lastly, I don't know a great deal about speakers, and certainly don't know how to "spec" anything (i'm just a simple bluesman:BluesBros) But I do know after more then 5 years lurking this and other boards, I've never seen a thread about 'Hey, I have this speaker, pulled out of a recently manufactured amp, with no markings that is awesome, I wonder what it is or who made it? Someone needs to reverse engineer this thing, if only they'd put the power handling on it, then all of it's secrets would be ours!"

My point is, if the thing is worth a crap, manufactures will go a long way to point out that you're getting something that has value. If a speaker has no markings, they are hiding something not from other manufactures or trade secrets, but that it is a cheap, or cheaper speaker. Which may be fine for the specific job, but it would make the amp look bad if the end user saw that it said Mr. Speakerman brand speaker on the label.

My rule of thumb is: If it's not a blue, or a greenback, or classic 80, or patriot/redcoat, or something that Ted built. It needs to be upgraded.

(my apologizes to Mr. Speakerman if he is out there somewhere, I'm sure he makes a fine speaker.:D)

And lastly, the term "customer" has been tossed around here, being used in reference to the amp manufactures, but little consideration to what the "end user" wants has been taken seriously. I think sometimes manufactures get caught up, and feel that the "end user" doesn't know what's best, and that may be true. But at the end of the day it's the "end user" that that pays the bills and what they want should be taken into consideration.

StompBoxBlues

12-31-2008, 04:20 AM

Well...okay...here we go. This is a thread (from yesteday, it's come up on two days so far to find out SOME info...but it sounds like knowing what the original power rating was might not be so easy)

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=484366

So...I can hear Jay or someone saying "okay, there you go, the speaker is OLD so the power rating most likely is less than it once was", to which I'd say "but at least you know what the MAX it ever could handle. If it was rated new at 50 watts, you know it won't take 50 or 60 today...that is SOME info at least"

Also, this person now has tracked down (and this is just plain luck that someone had it for sale...there was only one) a "brother" speaker. The person seems to like the way the speaker handles. Having the wattage on the speaker would take some guesswork out.

Now also, and I NEVER suggested that the whole spec be put on the speaker, but what would this person do if the only one on Ebay were sold the week before? How would this person know what kind of characteristics this speaker has soundwise? I am betting that that info is not on a web somewhere....or ?

Jay Mitchell

12-31-2008, 01:50 PM

Well...okay...here we go. This is a thread (from yesteday, it's come up on two days so far to find out SOME info...but it sounds like knowing what the original power rating was might not be so easy)No, that's actually pretty trivial, and the answer (20 watts) is a good one. Had you asked for the same kind of assistance in the OP instead of ranting, you would probably now have all the information you need. And this thread would have (mercifully) died somewhere south of 105 posts.

but what would this person do if the only one on Ebay were sold the week before?Same thing anyone would do who is looking for a long-out-of-production antique item: keep looking. Life's a bitch that way sometimes.....

RCCola

12-31-2008, 02:28 PM

...So...I can hear Jay or someone saying "okay, there you go, the speaker is OLD so the power rating most likely is less than it once was", to which I'd say "but at least you know what the MAX it ever could handle. If it was rated new at 50 watts, you know it won't take 50 or 60 today...that is SOME info at least"...

I hate to keep this thread going, but what you are saying is not true. Some speakers are rated, by the manufacturer, conservatively, so knowing a speaker was rated by the manufacturer for X watts doesn't tell you that much.

Plenty of people use a Celestion Blue with amps that put out more than 15 watts e.g. the Clark Beaufort is a Tweed Deluxe rated at 18 watts. That amp can easily be pushed to more than 18 watts, yet the Celestion Blue is a favorite speaker for that amp.

StompBoxBlues

12-31-2008, 06:00 PM

No, that's actually pretty trivial, and the answer (20 watts) is a good one. Had you asked for the same kind of assistance in the OP instead of ranting, you would probably now have all the information you need. And this thread would have (mercifully) died somewhere south of 105 posts.

Same thing anyone would do who is looking for a long-out-of-production antique item: keep looking. Life's a bitch that way sometimes.....

Please...get real. Ranting? I simply pointed out that it would be beneficial if they put that info on the speaker. I didn't see a link, nor did I see a way that someone not into speakers could find that info...could you please detail how you came to 20 watts? Was, or is that info on the net somewhere? Where? How (step by step) would a person like the one asking find out if there wasn't the same speaker on Ebay?

you seem to really have a chip on your shoulder about this, I am honestly trying to just give a suggestion that would benefit all...and I stil haven't heard a good reason why the info shouldn't be mandated (watts rating, and possibly impedance) to be included on any speaker.

Why you would be condescending about it, and characterize a simple request as a "rant" I have no idea of.
I don't think I was rude to you, but you seem to really have a hard time with a simple idea, something totally "rightous" and you end up sending these snide comments about me "ranting" when all I am saying is, it would be nice and HELPFUL if that info was on the speaker.

What exactly is your problem with that concept?

StompBoxBlues

12-31-2008, 06:05 PM

I hate to keep this thread going, but what you are saying is not true. Some speakers are rated, by the manufacturer, conservatively, so knowing a speaker was rated by the manufacturer for X watts doesn't tell you that much.

Plenty of people use a Celestion Blue with amps that put out more than 15 watts e.g. the Clark Beaufort is a Tweed Deluxe rated at 18 watts. That amp can easily be pushed to more than 18 watts, yet the Celestion Blue is a favorite speaker for that amp.

Actually, yes...it does. It tells you that even conservatively that speaker WAS at one time rated to a specific power rating. I'm totall blown away by this reluctance to make knowledge generally known.

If you know it "conservatively" can handle tells you what they WON'T handle. Is NO ONE with me on this? I don't care, I know this is right, but if a manufacturer conservatively rated a speaker at 20 watts, then you know 20 watts is OK...what is difficult with this concept? It means that you are safe if you don't expect it to handle 40 watts. It means if it is in a configuration of speakers that all handle 20 watts, and there are 4 of them, you can be reasonably sure it will handle 80 watts.

It means yo have information. And why would you contribute to a thread you want to have die?

Jay Mitchell

12-31-2008, 06:33 PM

I am honestly trying to just give a suggestion that would benefit all...Wrong forum. You need to contact the companies that manufactured the cabs from which you scavenged the allegedly unmarked speakers. Nobody who is participating here can do anything to implement your suggestion.

and I stil haven't heard a good reason why the info shouldn't be mandated"Mandated?" Bwahaha. Good one. Mandated by whom? The guitar speaker police? I'm making the call right now.....

RCCola

12-31-2008, 06:38 PM

When did I say I want this thread to die? I just didn't want to contribute to where it was headed. But, I'll try one more time.

This is what you said:

to which I'd say "but at least you know what the MAX it ever could handle. If it was rated new at 50 watts, you know it won't take 50 or 60 today...that is SOME info at least"

Which, I'm saying is incorrect. The Celestion Blue is rated at 15 watts, but can handle more in real world situations, it has handled more and done it consistently. So you don't know the max it could ever handle until you've blown it. I don't *know* it won't handle 15 watts in 10 years. It very well can.

What is difficult with this concept? lol....

Is NO ONE with me on this? I don't care, I know this is right

With that attitude, why do you even seek help from others? You are right, everyone else is wrong.

edgewound

12-31-2008, 07:19 PM

I didn't see a link, nor did I see a way that someone not into speakers could find that info...could you please detail how you came to 20 watts? Was, or is that info on the net somewhere? Where?

I came to that estimation in the other thread. How? Since off the top of my head I wasn't aware of what the power output of the Fender Musicmaster is....so...I Googled it...came up with some links....found a schematic....surmised that due to (2)6V6 tubes it must put out around 20 watts before big-time clipping.

Fender's non-premium(JBL & EV being premium options) were known to just about match the amp's output...even when considering multiple speaker combos like the Super Reverb...give or take a few watts...small magnet 10"'s with 1.25" to 1.5" voice coils...less than 50 watts each...just enough to handle the 60 watts of the Super Reverb plus a little extra.

Granted..I've been reconing speakers for 20 years and have a feel for what most speakers can handle...but the particulars of this other example I found with some Google'ing.

I'm not defending nor ripping anyone with this post...just explaining what I did here.

You can easily find a reasonable substitute speaker by measuring the voice coil diameter and noting the physical size of the magnet. The magnet material does matter regarding power handling...alnico is about 5 times the magnet strength of ceramic so ceramic will be much larger and heavier...neodymium about ten times for a given magnet size. You'll never find a neo magnet as OEM in a vintage amp...but you will alnico and ceramic. Ceramic is the least expensive of the bunch

After that, you need to make your total nominal impedance will match the impedance of the amp.

Hope this info is of help.

Jerrod

12-31-2008, 07:45 PM

Wrong forum. You need to contact the companies that manufactured the cabs from which you scavenged the allegedly unmarked speakers. Nobody who is participating here can do anything to implement your suggestion.

"Mandated?" Bwahaha. Good one. Mandated by whom? The guitar speaker police? I'm making the call right now.....

Sounds reasonable to me.

Jon Silberman

12-31-2008, 11:41 PM

Virtually any and all of my other music gear either has a manual that comes with it, OR specs (the important ones anyway) on the unit.

Speakers though...my GAWD... I have speakers with NO model number on them, speakers with "generic" or unspecific model numbers (Eminence Legend it says...okay, but when I look it seems there are different variations), if you are LUCKY they will print the speaker impedance on the speaker...but I have yet to see sensitivity, or wattage printed on them.

HOW come they get away with this? It is a huge PITA to go try and look up specs on a speaker you have that you don't even know for sure the model, and when they make them specifically for amp manufacturers, forget about finding out...

It is starting to really tick me off. How in this day and age are thet getting away with this secrecy around their speakers?

Anyone else fed up? I didn't do a good enough job recording when I changed out some speakers, and now in one cab I have no idea what max rating is, so I don't dare use it with my 100w amp, etc.
I personally have no problem with your OP and agree with your sentiments in principle. But FWIW, if you don't want to be perceived as ranting, you could choose, in the future, to rephrase a post like this one more along these lines which says essentially the same thing but in a calmer, friendlier manner.

I have a suggestion I'd like to offer for anyone and everyone building or repairing speakers - could you please include, somewhere on the speaker, its power handling capacity and ohmage? That would make it easier for folks like me to use 'em safely in different applications. Thanks.Just sayin'.

Ronsonic

01-01-2009, 09:02 AM

Sounds reasonable to me.

The speaker police, live inside of my head.
The speaker police, come to me in my bed.
The speaker police, they're coming to arrest me, oh no.

StompBoxBlues

01-02-2009, 04:51 AM

When did I say I want this thread to die? I just didn't want to contribute to where it was headed. But, I'll try one more time.

This is what you said:

Which, I'm saying is incorrect. The Celestion Blue is rated at 15 watts, but can handle more in real world situations, it has handled more and done it consistently. So you don't know the max it could ever handle until you've blown it. I don't *know* it won't handle 15 watts in 10 years. It very well can.

What is difficult with this concept? lol....

With that attitude, why do you even seek help from others? You are right, everyone else is wrong.

It's not incorrect, at least not anymore than if the manufacturer allowed for plenty of leeway. It is correct, it just means that a careful person might not use it in an amp that they may well be able to, but at the very least they will know what it was max rated at.

It seems to me you are coming at this backwards. I'm saying, in your example, Blue is rated at 15 watts. Wrong or right, you can count on that as not going to blow the speaker. If it is a used, old one, and you worry that it is not able to still handle the power, you can go even more conservative and not have to worry about blowing it.

What IS difficult about that concept? You seem to be making some point that "you might not know how high it can go until you blow it" and "the speaker was rated conservatively"...you miss WHY manufacturers give conservative ratings, to allow for slight differences in the product, in the ratings of amps, etc. and still be safe.

Plus, in the theoretical, one goes on the net and gets that info ANYWAY? IF it exists (which it really doesn't for the example from that thread).

Edgewound googled, and made educated guesses (that probably are on the money I would bet) but edgewound is obviously a knowledgable and experienced person regarding amps, speakers, ratings, and he can read schematics and approximate.

I'm talking about most guitarists, that just know "I've got a speaker, can I use it in this amp?".