Applying stuff you've transcribed

[spencerbk]

Inspired (in a good way) by recent discussion about transcribing over here, curious to see what you guys do with stuff you've transcribed.

I recently finished about 4 choruses of Miles and Sonny Rollins playing on 'Oleo' from Bag's Groove. I had to slow the tracks down using (Transcribe!) software and with the music I've written out in front of me as a cheat sheet I can probably play along at around 80% tempo now.

But, just writing the stuff down and playing along isn't the end goal - improving my ability to improvise on Rhythm changes is.

There's various things I can do - make general observations re: scale and note choice, work on technique by practicing this till my fingers come off and getting it up to tempo, pick out favorite licks and transpose to different keys, move on to the next project quickly ...

I'm sure I should spend some amount of time doing all of these things, but for folks that have done more of this - what works for you?

[KRosser]

Inspired (in a good way) by recent discussion about transcribing over here, curious to see what you guys do with stuff you've transcribed.

I recently finished about 4 choruses of Miles and Sonny Rollins playing on 'Oleo' from Bag's Groove. I had to slow the tracks down using (Transcribe!) software and with the music I've written out in front of me as a cheat sheet I can probably play along at around 80% tempo now.

But, just writing the stuff down and playing along isn't the end goal - improving my ability to improvise on Rhythm changes is.

There's various things I can do - make general observations re: scale and note choice, work on technique by practicing this till my fingers come off and getting it up to tempo, pick out favorite licks and transpose to different keys, move on to the next project quickly ...

I'm sure I should spend some amount of time doing all of these things, but for folks that have done more of this - what works for you?

All of the above.

Sorry if that sounds cagey, but - for me it's true.

[JonR]

I agree - all of the above.

I guess "pick out favorite licks and transpose to different keys" might come top, if pushed.
I think it's important to learn the little phrases that stick in your head, rather than get anal about too much detail. Those little phrases mean something to you (for whatever reason), so they naturally become part of your vocabulary.

While on a rhythm changes kick, try and find other versions of the same sequence, by very different players - just so you don't get too attached to Miles or Sonny. The more different sources you steal licks from (esp if you only go for those phrases that stand out), the more individual and "original" your own sound becomes.
Stay hungry, but don't eat everything - only what smells or tastes good. ;)

[spencerbk]

No apologies necessary for "all of the above" answers, and I'm glad to know I'm on the right track by spending at least some time on each of the things I mentioned (except I haven't started a new transcribing project yet). Maybe there's other priorities to chase (I haven't worked out basslines or piano chords under the solo, for example).

Was just curious if anyone had any strong opinions as to how best spend limited time and how to know if I've spent 'enough' (or too much?) time on one transcription.

I still feel pretty excited about the accomplishment of getting these licks down on paper and I enjoy playing along with the recording, so I guess I'm not at the 'too much' point yet.

[JonR]

No apologies necessary for "all of the above" answers, and I'm glad to know I'm on the right track by spending at least some time on each of the things I mentioned (except I haven't started a new transcribing project yet). Maybe there's other priorities to chase (I haven't worked out basslines or piano chords under the solo, for example).

Was just curious if anyone had any strong opinions as to how best spend limited time and how to know if I've spent 'enough' (or too much?) time on one transcription.

I still feel pretty excited about the accomplishment of getting these licks down on paper and I enjoy playing along with the recording, so I guess I'm not at the 'too much' point yet.Right. You'll know when you hit the "too much" point. You'll be staring at pages of close-written dots wondering how and why you got into this mess... it will stop meaning anything.
I always remember a friend of mine - a gifted pro jazz sax player - showing me a Coltrane solo he'd just transcribed - many years ago, without the aid of software! He held up the 6 or 7 pages of it in amused despair. He'd realised that writing it out was not what it was all about. Been there, done that. Now what? A kind of epiphany moment. The dots are not the music. They are simply a highly incomplete representation of some aspects of the music. Useful, to be sure, but merely a beginning, and often a sidetrack.

One of the most useful pieces of transcription I did was "All Blues" - all four players' solos, but only the bars on the V7 and bVI7 chords (I wanted to see how they each handled altered dom7s in one particular context). The difference between Miles and Coltrane was extraordinary - predictable, but still salutary to see it written out. So little (cryptic, circumspect) from Miles, so much (erudite but blustering) from Trane. Cannonball Adderley and Bill Evans were neatly in between: thoughtful, with clear strategies.
Impossible to steal licks from Miles or Trane (either too little to go on, or too much); but Cannonball had at least one neat idea.
Of course, the inspiration from Miles wasn't the notes he chose, but the attitude; the silences he chose. His lesson was: "think about it. Is that next note really necessary? Does it improve on the silence?" [as an Indian guru once said, but Miles could have] ;)
As Dizzy Gillespie said: "it's taken me a lifetime to learn what not to play". Miles seemed to know that from the start.

[dkaplowitz]

Great thread. Thanks for starting it, spencerbk!

Dave

[KRosser]

No apologies necessary for "all of the above" answers, and I'm glad to know I'm on the right track by spending at least some time on each of the things I mentioned (except I haven't started a new transcribing project yet). Maybe there's other priorities to chase (I haven't worked out basslines or piano chords under the solo, for example).

Was just curious if anyone had any strong opinions as to how best spend limited time and how to know if I've spent 'enough' (or too much?) time on one transcription.

I still feel pretty excited about the accomplishment of getting these licks down on paper and I enjoy playing along with the recording, so I guess I'm not at the 'too much' point yet.

I think it's best sometimes to keep in mind musical develpment is much more likely an abstract circular route than a linear one - anything you're doing, including the wrong thing, can result in growth somewhere down the road if you stay focused on what you hear in your own music.

"Focus" is really the key thing here.

[rotren]

I'd say all of the above too. I find the faster the tempo, the more important it is to have a vast library of licks and phrases, because my technique isn't of that caliber that I can just play anything I might want. At slower tempos, there's room to stretch out a bit, but with bob tunes, technique becomes my main problem.

[spencerbk]

I think it's best sometimes to keep in mind musical develpment is much more likely an abstract circular route than a linear one - anything you're doing, including the wrong thing can result in growth somewhere down the road if you stay focused on what you hear in your own music.

"Focus" is really the key thing here.

Focus is also the hard part! So much great music out there to learn from, so many different things to practice, and what do I hear in my own music ... "all of the above"

[spencerbk]

One of the most useful pieces of transcription I did was "All Blues" - all four players' solos, but only the bars on the V7 and bVI7 chords


Cool idea!

[sausagefingers]

Just as an aside (and I do not believe I am giving up a confidence by sharing this):

I asked Mr Zucker what he meant when he gave the advice to 'transcribe', and he actually was referring to listening/learning to play the solos by jazz players...but of course he also said that if you happen to write them down in standard notation, well, that's good too! :AOK

[derekd]

To me, with this stuff, you get to the point of the 80/20 rule. 80% of the value or quality of something comes in the last 20% of the work. So up to 80% tempo is good enough for me many times. Seeing note selection over changes, finding pet licks, etc, all important, but you can get all that at 80%. For me, the most important part seems to be the phrasing. For me to really get the phrasing down, I have to do the other 20%.

When I am covering tunes in the band I am in, 80% is good enough. For something like you are talking about, playing over RC well, I would have to put in the other 20, but then I seem to have to work harder than some other buddies I have who play. Music seems to come to them easier than it does me.

[Clifford-D]

Inspired (in a good way) by recent discussion about transcribing over here, curious to see what you guys do with stuff you've transcribed.

I recently finished about 4 choruses of Miles and Sonny Rollins playing on 'Oleo' from Bag's Groove. I had to slow the tracks down using (Transcribe!) software and with the music I've written out in front of me as a cheat sheet I can probably play along at around 80% tempo now.

But, just writing the stuff down and playing along isn't the end goal - improving my ability to improvise on Rhythm changes is.

There's various things I can do - make general observations re: scale and note choice, work on technique by practicing this till my fingers come off and getting it up to tempo, pick out favorite licks and transpose to different keys, move on to the next project quickly ...

I'm sure I should spend some amount of time doing all of these things, but for folks that have done more of this - what works for you?
One thing I haven't read others say,,

I feel taking a transcribed "nugget" and all the theoretical understanding that goes with it, and put that "lick" into another tune and then another. Work with it.
The transcibed nugget becomes part of your fabric the more you this.
A fun and common way to do this is to transcribe a famous head or theme and interject that into your soloing. It's called "quoting". Many jazz cats do this
blues guys will do it, and metal heads will quote the theme from "Halloween".

In a nutshell, make the transcription nuggets part of your own language. Own it.

[jhumber]

His lesson was: "think about it. Is that next note really necessary? Does it improve on the silence?"

That quote will stay with me for a long time - thanks for that. It's worth reading again and again.

[JonR]

That quote will stay with me for a long time - thanks for that. It's worth reading again and again.The original full quote is:

"Before you speak, ask yourself: is it kind, is it necessary, is it true, does it improve on the silence?"
- Sai Baba

It can easily be applied to music, as much to speech. (And just as difficult to follow in real life... :rolleyes:)
Except, I guess, that music doesn't have to be "kind". Angry music has its place...;) But music should always be "necessary" and "true". And should improve on the silence.

Bearing in mind two things:
1. Silence is just as important a part of music as sound.
2. As John Cage said, "Try as we may, we cannot create a silence."
- maybe true, but still worth trying... ;)

[heavypick]

One thing that helped me sometimes was taking a lick from a solo I transcribed and first re-fingering it in several ways (starting with the index finger, starting with the pinky, etc) to physically have the lick at my command. This way, regardless of where my hands end up (since an improvisation happens in real time) I can play the phrase if I'm hearing it. Second, after getting it together on the guitar, I'd play along with the recording on the slower side and without the notation, so I can really internalize the line and hear what's going on rather than use my "reading" muscles. Last, I'd try to stick the lick into every possible other situation/tune so it ulitimately becomes a reflex. And remember, one lick can become twenty licks if you juggle the notes/rhythms/etc. around.

Keep in mind, that what I just described is like a process for learning just one lick and may not necessarily help in the overall process of developing a solo, but at least it's something concrete and with a tangible result.

Regarding solo development you can probably break it down to very general guidelines deduced from the transcription, like first eight measures of A section play sparse, second eight measures add Bb blues scale-type lines, next A section outline changes, etc.