Low Volume Recording

[Jujo]

Guys-

Need some help here... I've been practicing at very low volume at home. I mean speaking volume... But I'm having trouble recording myself because it seems I don't have enough volume to get a good strong signal coming into Sonar. I'm using a sm57.

What is my problem?
Should I try a condenser mic? Because they are more sensitive?
Should I try going direct using some kind of amp sim?

There has got to be a way to record low volumes. Somebody school me.

Thanks

[altruistic8]

I would say your best bet to get a quality recording at low volumes would be to plug directly into the preamp/interface and using a program like amplitube or guitar rig for your amp instead of miking an actual amp. I think sonar might have some built in guitar amps in the producer addition, but my favorite simulator is hands down guitar rig 3. Another option would be an isocab, which are pretty cool...its like a speaker in a closed cabinet which you put the mics inside allowing you to turn up the amp without being overly loud outside the cabinet.

[vladshap]

57 is a dynamic mic. Try something like GR3, or a Pod.

[Cyclophenia]

What is your signal peaking at? Is your input level on your DAW high enough?

oh, and how are you miking the amp? if you have it backed up a bit off the amp, maybe try a condenser instead? preamp? mixer? can add gain with both those too.

I use to close mic a fender practice amp with the volume and master both on "1" with a 57 and it was still a pretty hot signal.

[rob2001]

Well, if you like the tones maybe you just need a bit more volume. Perhaps some type of isolation box? Are you happy with the tone but it's just not hot enough? The 57 is kinda weak as far as output so an outboard preamp can definitly help bring levels up to a point. Anything i've done at speaking level generally doesn't sound that great anyhow. I bought an old Vox Tonelab desktop for late night scratch recordings and while I still like a fired up tube amp, the tones are usable. I'm gonna buy a Sansamp GT2 though. The tonelab still sounds very "digital" to my ears and I don't need all the bells and whistles.

What amp are you trying to record? There are load box type options as well. I guess it depends on your budget.

[Jujo]

Thanks guys. I meant to ask should I buy a condenser mic? I also just bought a PreSonus Firebox, I'm currently using a Lexicon Lambda. I don't expect there would be any difference in input sensitivity between the 2 devices. I'll try the Firebox though, I don't think it will solve the problem.

I am satisfied with the tone. I know it doesn't make a whole of sense on paper but the amp, guitars, and pedals I'm using actually sound really damn good at very low volume. Especially considering, I'm just making recording to hear myself practice and workout ideas etc...

I get ear fatigue when things are louder and I'm just trying to practice. That's why I like keeping the volume really low.

So it seems I've got 3 options:

guitar amp sim software
preamp
condenser mic

I think I'd like to 'keep it real' and use my real amp and pedals. I'm concerned that Guitar Rig will change the feel and change the tones that I'm already really comfy with.

Given that...which is more likely to give me a greater bump in signal level- a condenser mic or a preamp?

[Sunbreak Music]

What is a "low level"? What are your meters reading?

Does your soundcard have built-in pres?

[stevel]

Thanks guys. I meant to ask should I buy a condenser mic? I also just bought a PreSonus Firebox, I'm currently using a Lexicon Lambda. I don't expect there would be any difference in input sensitivity between the 2 devices. I'll try the Firebox though, I don't think it will solve the problem.

1. You probably should have a good condenser in your mic arsenal because they're good for other things as well. But a good one is in the $800 range (yes, there are cheaper ones out there people convince themselves are good, but you're really looking at a grand for a good condenser).

2. You should be able to crank up the amp - in a closet, under a sofa - whatever - It doesn't matter what the amp sounds like in the room, it matters what sound the mic is getting. You can raise the volume with a "create your own Iso-Cab" and still not have it too loud in the room.

3. I have two computer stations with Lambdas, and would never, ever buy a Lexicon interface again. They're OK, but signal quality is iffy in my opinion.


Given that...which is more likely to give me a greater bump in signal level- a condenser mic or a preamp?

A condenser mic is simply more sensitive than a dynamic mic. It's going to pick up more - including everything else. One of the reasons (among others) amps are mic'ed close, and turned up, is to keep other sounds from bleeding into the recording.

You'll get "more" signal from the condenser (depending on the quality of the mic) and better overall dynamic range, but it will likely pick up more extraneous noises as well (which may or may not be an issue).

Preamps, depending on the quality, generally add more noise (and sometimes coloration) to the signal too. It's kind of bass ackwards to plug a mic into a pre, and turn it up, when you could just turn up the amp.

In general, more signal at the mic is better - it's better to turn down gain in the mic pres than to make them "work for signal". If the mic is as close as you can get it to the speaker, and the pre-amp gain is as high as you can get it without introducing any noise, then the thing to do is turn up the amp.

If signal at the mic is really low, then you're going to need a quieter environment in which to record, and a mic that picks up lower level signals better (a condenser).

I'd turn up the amp a little. Even singers don't sing a "speaking volume" and your amp should be at "singing volume" IMHO. YMMV.

Steve

[pvalenti]

A preamp is going to be hands-down a better bump in signal level. I'd go cheap first to see how you like it. Musician's Friend sells an ART preamp for something like $30 or they were the last time I was down there and they had OODLES of them. http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/ART-Tube-MP-Studio-Mic-Preamp?sku=180581

The ampsim software, yes even Guitar Rig 3, most definitely WILL alter your sound from what you hear. I would stay away from that if TONE is your prime consideration.

My opinion is buy the cheap ART tube preamp and see how you like that. If you don't like it, you can always try something else and you won't be out tons of cash. Plus it sounds like your budget is probably not that large to begin with. You MAY also be able to find a plugin for Sonar that simulates a tube preamp. I'd try out a demo of someone's preamp and see if that works for ya. You might be able to figure it out before you have to spend a dime!

If that sounds like a possible solution for you, just google for "VST PREAMP" and see what you come up with.

[Bo Faulkner]

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7083955
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7083944

the above songs were done with IK Amplitube 2 I have found it to be very versatile and a fun tool when amps are out of the question
__________________

[ToneZappa]

I think I'd like to 'keep it real' and use my real amp and pedals. I'm concerned that Guitar Rig will change the feel and change the tones that I'm already really comfy with.


If you like the sound of your amp and pedals why not get a speaker simulator and if you need it a load box. That way you can get a good line level to the recording input. Dosen,t matter if you are playing loud or quiet.

Heres a track that had all guitars recorded this way (Guitar-AMP-Speaker Sim/load-Soundcard) http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=453041



.

[vladshap]

If ear fatigue is the only reason you have to keep the volume down, then get some nice ear plugs, or noise canceling headphones, and turn your amp up.

[Somniferous]

For amp simulation I am really digging the Line 6 amp farm. It runs a bit cheaper than ampiltube and to me sounds less ice picky. I still prefer to record a live guitar, especially for anything high gain because amp sims always sound like crap on high gain settings.

[HammyD]

How about a H&K Red Box so you can use your amp, pedals, etc..

http://www.amptone.com/hkredbox.htm

If you decide you want an art pre, as suggested above, let me know as I have one I used on a few times.

[MikeMcK]

Thanks guys. I meant to ask should I buy a condenser mic? I also just bought a PreSonus Firebox, I'm currently using a Lexicon Lambda. I don't expect there would be any difference in input sensitivity between the 2 devices. I'll try the Firebox though, I don't think it will solve the problem.

I wouldn't count on the Firebox to solve it. If anything, it has a somewhat weaker-than-average preamp. The accompanying software does let you add 12 dB between the FB and your software, but it's basically digitally amplifying your signal after the input.

There's a thread here somewhere about the FB and the low input level.

[Cyclophenia]

Originally Posted by Jujo http://img.thegearpage.net/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=5286440#post5286440)
Thanks guys. I meant to ask should I buy a condenser mic? I also just bought a PreSonus Firebox, I'm currently using a Lexicon Lambda. I don't expect there would be any difference in input sensitivity between the 2 devices. I'll try the Firebox though, I don't think it will solve the problem.
I wouldn't count on the Firebox to solve it. If anything, it has a somewhat weaker-than-average preamp. The accompanying software does let you add 12 dB between the FB and your software, but it's basically digitally amplifying your signal after the input.

There's a thread here somewhere about the FB and the low input level. +1

the firebox has some issues with the 57, and dynamics in general, apparently. You would be alright sticking a preamp in front of that. or try the condenser, that seems to have better results with the firebox. oddly from what i've been reading about it, the higher up presonus boxes (pod, studio, etc) doesn't seem to have a big an issue with gain as the firebox.

[Jujo]

I think I have devised a solution/workaround. It's not ideal but it'll probably work. I'm going to run my pedalboard into my Crate Powerblock into the Lambda. I'll use the line out XLR from the Powerblock into the Lambda. That should give me all the input level I need. The compromise is that I won't be able to use my tube amp but at least I'll be using a real guitar amp instead of a sim, and I'll be able to use my pedals.

This is only for practicing anyways, so I'm not worried about having the best tone. I think the Powerblock will prove it's utility once again. Will update the thread later after I try it.