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View Full Version : Bill Frisell - Lexicon MPX100 question


Clifford-D
01-11-2009, 09:09 AM
This is a performance question :)

Friz uses a Lexicon MPX100 for reverb.

How does it sit in his tone chain?
Does it go through the front end of the amp or does it go through
an effects loop? What tone difference is there.
He always has Fender Deluxes when I see him, they don't have effects loops y/n??
I have a Blues Deluxe RI stock. (I replaced tubes, speaker, and returned to stock by preference)

What reverb sound/settings does he use, I believe it would be the "hall"???

Anything else about Friz and his Lex reverb that would be good to know?

Thanks everyone.

seiko
01-11-2009, 12:18 PM
Last in the chain to provide the stereo split straight to the DRRIs input, uses an ebtech hum eliminator to deal with the ground loops,

Clifford-D
01-11-2009, 01:33 PM
Last in the chain to provide the stereo split straight to the DRRIs input, uses an ebtech hum eliminator to deal with the ground loops,
So no effects loops? Straight in?

Unfortunately I only have one amp but it's still nice.


I have one more question.
The reverb is great like you expect but the unit itself changes the fundamental
tone of the chain.
Last night I was checking out or comparing Digiverb, Verbzilla and Lexicon. With reverb off the flat sound is different between the units. The Line6 is close to the original but with some minor splatter when digging in.
The Lexicon has the warmest flat tone. Almost like a Polytone, add the reverb and this is a nice warm pallet of verb.
Is this the effect of FET?? Is FET tone different amungst pedals??

I just think since two of my favorite players use Lexicon, Friz and Kimock, It is essential to the end product. Tone.
I hear my voice in this arena of tone so why not learn as much as I can. :)

Clifford-D
01-11-2009, 02:01 PM
I guess I already wrote this at another thread about the same unit and musician. The Lexicon unit has a compander device. This device compress the signal at the input, for ease of digital processing, and expands the signal at the output to retain some dynamics. Also, not to be desestimated is the phase cancellation the stereo reverb produces.

Regards
That all sounds great Henry, the stuff I want to understand, Could you suggest in/out settings?

Also I need some definitions to what you wrote.

Compander device = what does compressed signal do/sound like, what is the effect
of compression, this is a different compression as found in the Keeley pedal right?
Is this compander tone effect something that Friz and Steve seek out aside from the nice verb?

Phase cancelation - is that what the BBE Sonic Stomp does? I'm so confused,

Tone is so important to how we express ourselves, any old tone doesn't work.

Thanks Henry and all

splatt
01-11-2009, 02:12 PM
I guess I already wrote this at another thread about the same unit and musician. The Lexicon unit has a compander device. This device compress the signal at the input, for ease of digital processing, and expands the signal at the output to retain some dynamics. Also, not to be desestimated is the phase cancellation the stereo reverb produces.

to some degree,
what marks the "organic" warmth featured in
the best of those
much-loved older (and propagated) lexicon reverb algorithms
(& might be seen to cause various degrees
of resultant phase-issues) is
the subtle, irregular movement of the delay-times
that make up the apparent reverb-tails:
it can be thought-of as a kind of "chorusing"
(which can be user-programmed/controlled
within the more expensive lexicon units,
eg pcm70, pcm80/81, 90/91, 200, 480, 960, etc etc etc).
(this element was also included in at least one of the early LXP-devices,
if my memory serves me well enough.....)

dt / spltrcl

Clifford-D
01-11-2009, 02:51 PM
Yes, that is great to know.
Do you have any thoughts on the FET thing? I need to get straight on that.
Thank you.

seiko
01-11-2009, 07:37 PM
Yes, that is great to know.
Do you have any thoughts on the FET thing? I need to get straight on that.
Thank you.

FET equaling Mos-Fet?

splatt
01-12-2009, 02:18 PM
Like splatt already said, the "warmth" of certain stereo reverb algorithms is also due to phase cancellation.

it is only one of the elements which adds to
the vivacity of the sound, i think,
which might be perceived as bringing forward
"warmth", "richness", & a (false, maybe) "organic" nature
to the sound.
but, to put a finer point on that element:
where that quasi-random chorusing occurs
in the reverb tails (& may result in some phase-issues),
in fact i believe that it may be the animation
of the phase-movement (married to very subtle pitch changing)
that offers those feelings,
given that these motions are both irregular
&, to many ears,
nearly imperceptible.
dt / spltrcl

Clifford-D
01-12-2009, 04:28 PM
Don't mention it, Clifford.

Phase cancellation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_cancellation), also called interference or intermodulation, is an acoustic effect produced when two or more waves of similar frequency and different phase produce a third wave with a fundamental frequency equal to the addition (positive and negative) of the fundamental frequencies of the original waves. Two sinusoidal (i.e. pure tone) 440 Hz. (i.e. musical note A4) acoustic waves with 180 phase difference between each other produce a third wave with a fundamental frequency of 0 Hz. If the phase difference between waves is 0 (zero) thenboth waves add to the other increasing amplitude.
This is difficult to explain in words. Maybe this picture can explain it better.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Interference_of_two_waves.png

The left graph is two waves with the same phase (0 phase difference) and the right graph is two waves with 180 phase difference.

If phase difference between the waves is more than 0 but less than 180 you have comb filtering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comb_filter). IOW, the 1st wave positive phase could undergo either constructive or destructive interference against the 2nd wave negative phase. If both are complex waves (with several overtones, as natural sound waves) each overtone of the 1st wave is either added or substracted to the correspondent overtone of the 2nd wave.

A chorus, flanger or short delay (delay time < 50ms) device produces comb filtering because it delays the wet signal with regard to the dry signal. Stereo DSP output can induce phase cancellation to the signal. With stereo delays (e.g. stereo early reflections, stereo reverb trails, etc.) it is quite possible too. Comb filtering or phase cancellation produces a sound spectrum that sounds mellower or duller than the original unprocessed signal. For example, if you switch a Strat with modern 5-way toggle in the 2 or 4 positions, phase cancellation between the pickups will produce a sound duller and you'd be prompted to open the tone controls wider. Like splatt already said, the "warmth" of certain stereo reverb algorithms is also due to phase cancellation.

Frisell uses a Boss DD-3 set to 500ms with some feedback and wobbles the neck. The neck bending modulates the dry signal while the wet signal isn't modulated (at least during the latest 500ms that are still in the sampler memory). This too produces phase cancellation, because not only are both waves 500ms apart but also the frecuency of the dry signal is slightly different to the frequency of the wet signal. Thus, Frisell's sound becomes mellower and warmer.

Regarding a compandor. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companding) It's a compressor+expander device. All digital signal processing (DSP) devices have a compandor to allow better signal to noise ratio at lower bit rate processing. As with a dynamic range compressor, a compandor can change the frequency spectrum of your guitar signal, and while the expander at the output reduces the tonal effects of the compressor, it also makes the signal's dynamic range sound artificial. I could be wrong and please, correct me. It's been 11 years since I bailed out from electronic engineer and I don't remember many things.

Regards
Wow Henry, I'll be rereading this and researching it. I pretty much get it,
between your scientific explanation and Davids extropolated tapastries of thought, the info is well laid out.
I feel neurons connecting.

Please fellas, keep going, it's fun, and keeps me out of trouble.lol