Quartersawn = Stiffer Feel?

[Lucidology]

Is this a fact?

[Pfeister]

To some degree, yes. Quarter-sawn is mainly for stability, though. Wood generally splits with the grain which makes plain-sawn wood much less stable. Some builders would argue that it doesn't matter at all, depending on the type of wood.

[Maculan]

Type "Quartersawn" in John Suhr's forum. It doesn't talk about feel (which I believe he did here in an old post since deleted), but it talks about brightness, stability and why he now offers it as an option.

I hope he and some of the other builders answer this here - I'd like to know as well (for sure).

[Festus]

Do you mean in terms of perceived string tension? I've had a few guitars with quarter sawn necks, but not sure if I noticed a difference based on that fact alone.

[Tinman]

Wood generally splits with the grain which makes plain-sawn wood much less stable.

Well, I don't understand that statement at all, but a quarter-sawn board is physically stiffer than a flat-sawn board. In other words, it will not flex as easily. As far as stability, a flat-sawn board expands and contracts more across its width than a quartersawn board. On the other hand, a quarter-sawn board expands and contracts more in its thickness than a flat-sawn board. Since a guitar neck isn't very thick, the expansion and contraction in thickness is pretty insignificant.

[derekd]

I think about furniture making and the use of quarter sawn vs flat sawn was made popular in mission style construction. Mission, Arts & Crafts both made use of this cut, and found additional stability in addition to the visual appeal.

I guess it translates to guitars also, but that is how I know about the difference in stability.

[Pfeister]

Well, I don't understand that statement at all, but a quarter-sawn board is physically stiffer than a flat-sawn board. In other words, it will not flex as easily. As far as stability, a flat-sawn board expands and contracts more across its width than a quartersawn board. On the other hand, a quarter-sawn board expands and contracts more in its thickness than a flat-sawn board. Since a guitar neck isn't very thick, the expansion and contraction in thickness is pretty insignificant.

Now that I look at that post, I guess I should have been more specific in my quick answer. I was thinking in terms of something like dropping a guitar on the neck. In my experience building, plain-sawn wood would be more likely to crack. A quarter-sawn neck would hold up better in that situation and it's not hard to see why. Although, most people don't have many issues with necks breaking. Shrinkage and expansion of neck wood is more important when considering grain. I completely agree with what you're saying.

I live in Denver where the climate is always very dry and I have to deal with incessant wood drying issues all the time. Actually, one of my biggest concerns is wood swelling when it leaves the area.

[cnardone]

Terry McInturff writes a fair bit about this in this thread.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=301148&page=6

cmn

[JBG]

I find it's kinda like 9v batteries.... Some people can tell the difference between Energizers & Duracell, but they're both 9v and do the job.

[Lucidology]

Originally Posted by Terry McInturff http://img.thegearpage.net/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=4029642#post4029642)
I am so pleased that you are interested enough to ask. Of course, I will be happy to explain. I shall try not to be "too wordy"...one of my faults as a writer.

The terms "quartersawn" and "flatsawn" are two pivotal terms to understand when discussing instrument quality wood; I am working on a Windows 98 tonight and thus I'm not willing to try drawing any decent illustrations, etc. I will not be able to communicate this topic very well this evening.

If you look at the end of a log (or the top of a stump) you will see the famous growth rings, the dark lines of which comprise the harder grain of the wood. These dark rings are what gives the wood the majority of it's stiffness. For now, we can ignore the softer, lighter-coloured wood between the dark rings.

Let us imagine the end of a log as a series of concentric circles that show those growth rings. It looks like an archer's target, for purpose of this explanation. And all of this explanation is oversimplified in order to explain a simple overview.

If we slice that log so that the growth rings are vertical to the width of the board...you have a piece of quartersawn wood, like this board viewed on-end:

top of board
_______________________________
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| < vertical grain
______________________________

bottom of board



If we slice that log so that the growth rings are parallel to the width of the board...you have a piece of flatsawn wood, like this board
viewed on-end:


top of board
_________________________________

--------------------------------------- < horizontal, or
___________________________________ "flat grain"

bottom of board


Now that I have done the minimum in explaining these two terms..flatsawn and quartersawn...it is time to move on.

Truly quartersawn wood is prized by instrument makers because it shrinks/expands the least in reaction to it's environment; it is the most stable cut of the log.
Flatsawn wood...depending upon the characteristics of the wood species..can be very moderately to extremely less stable, dimensionally, compared to the quartersawn wood from the same log.

Take another look at my crude illustrations above; I hope that it is apparent that a flatsawn board...with it's inherently less dimensionally stable characteristics..can be "turned on edge" in order to orient the hard grains vertically to the long dimension of a guitar neck. A peek at the tip of a headstock, for instance, would show properly "vertical grain"..identical to true quartersawn neckwood..

But remember that, no matter how the hard dark grain lines are oriented...flatsawn wood is very often less dimensionally stable than it's quartersawn counterpart.

Sawing logs into flatsawn planks has a far greater "yield" for the lumber cutter. Acceptably quartersawn wood has a low yield, and thus is rarer and more expensive.

Many have "turned flatsawn on edge" in order to obtain the vaunted vertical grain....only to be mystified when the necks moved, and moved again.

Flatsawn wood that is "turned on edge" will often have more stiffness than when oriented the other way, but it must be remembered that stiffness does not ever guarantee stability.

In fact some of the hardest woods...the ebonies, for example...are notably dimensionally reactive to thier environment. Who would have "THUNKIT"? :NUTS


I have not done the subject justice; but it is time for bed and so, I bid you all good evening.



Incredibly informative Post by TM about the difference between flatsawn and quartersawn
(I stole this from the other thread about one of his primo axes ...)
Thanks so much Terry ...

[Guitar James]

Lucidology,

Thanks for cutting out that post from Terry. He is one of the most informative guys going, what he doesn't know about wood and guitars probably isn't worth knowing.

[shallbe]

Quartersawn maple neck on an ash body is snappy, bold and immediate. I do not find it overly bright, but it makes for a very loud guitar. Mine is a custom Suhr, and the neck has never needed an adjustment.

[Mark Kane]

Here's a cool explanation...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2m7qWHdHKQ&feature=PlayList&p=34842153540369A1&index=10

[Lucidology]

Quartersawn maple neck on an ash body is snappy, bold and immediate. I do not find it overly bright, but it makes for a very loud guitar. Mine is a custom Suhr, and the neck has never needed an adjustment.

But does it create a stiffer playing feel ...?
Or is that a myth ...

Sounds like a more immediate attack from the Quartersawn would make up for that in a way ....
even if it did create more tension

However, once had an EJ strat and it had an extremely stiff feel to it..
something I just couldn't get used to ...

[moreeye]

To me, choosing a quartersawn neck depends on the neck wood and profile. If you get a mahogany neck, it is important to get a quartersawn one even if you choose a thinner or fatter one. Mahogany is naturally less dense but warmer. It is a bit tricky about maple. I like fat necks so I always ask for a flatsawn maple neck. Quartersawn neck is somewhat denser so it sings brighter. Fender style guitars have single coils which are naturally open and brighter. Quartersawn necks add some brightness to the tone, so if you need to make acoustical sound of the guitar warmer to even things up. But if you want a slim neck shredder guitar, you may go for a quartersawn neck for stability, it is up to you.

[mouldynudger]

I don`t find a diference in feel (stiffness), I do agree with those who notice the immediate response and "snap".
I don`t regard it as brighter although the response might give that impression.

Personally, I like what a QS neck does and it is my preferred method of construction.

Damian.

[Terry McInturff]

I choose quartersawn woods for as many applications as possible.

You'd certainly never want to build with flatsawn mahogany for a neck.

[AaeCee]

So does this mean that those flamey maple necks you see are not quartersawn, or is it the opposite? <obvious disclaimer....I'm not the woodworking type> :huh

[Terry McInturff]

Lucidology,

Thanks for cutting out that post from Terry. He is one of the most informative guys going, what he doesn't know about wood and guitars probably isn't worth knowing.


That is more than kind. Many thanks for your kind comments.

[Terry McInturff]

So does this mean that those flamey maple necks you see are not quartersawn, or is it the opposite? <obvious disclaimer....I'm not the woodworking type> :huh

The most dramatic flame comes with a quartered cut...but many including me like the flatsawn flame look (but for me only on tops as I do not use figured maple on any neck).

[Lucidology]

I do not use figured maple on any neck).

Why is that Terry ... Or is that too involved of a question ..?

BTW .. this is one of your babies isn't it..?
http://www.terryhiatt.com/media/images/Head.jpg

[Festus]

The guitars I have/had with quartersawn necks, I really didn't notice their having a stiffer playing feel compared to guitars with flatsawn necks...all over factors being relatively equal. So....

The EJ strats I've tried felt very stiff to me as well. My guess it's due to the bridge and/or other things particular to the EJ strat, rather than the neck being quartersawn.

But does it create a stiffer playing feel ...?
Or is that a myth ...

Sounds like a more immediate attack from the Quartersawn would make up for that in a way ....
even if it did create more tension

However, once had an EJ strat and it had an extremely stiff feel to it..
something I just couldn't get used to ...

[Vince]

The specifics of the setup (neck relief, bridge height, neck pitch, action, fret size, etc.) determine the feel of the guitar which is independent of the cut of the neck wood.

One way to easily understand the difference in why quartered wood stiffer than flatsawn is to imagine putting a 10 foot pine 1" x 10" across two sawhorses and standing in the middle of it with the board laying flat and then again with the board standing on it's edge.

[buddastrat]

The EJ definitely has a stiff feel. When you take that EJ neck and stick it on another strat body, it's still stiff, no matter the setup. Besides low frets and thick finish which create friction, the open strings tuned standard, always feel very stiff (like they're tuned too high) with that neck. Besides a thick 1/4 sawn on piece neck, it could have something to do with the shallow headstock. Just a hunch.

Every 1/4 sawn neck I have had has had a great fast percussive snap to it, and consequently a stiffer feel, I think because the wood doesn't give as much at the initial strike of the string. My '97 relic has 1/4 sawn neck/rosewood slab. That's a great combo for snap/spank and depth. It has a little bit of a stiff feel as well.

[Vince]

Hey Budda, we've been using quartersawn exclusively on the Vinetto Artifacts for the past 3 or so years, and in that time I've built a couple hundred guitars with nothing but quartersawn. I've also built a buttload of other guitars with flat and I sure couldn't say that quartersawn feels any stiffer than the flatsawn as any kind of "rule" when I set them up the same way.

I've played plenty of other guitars with flatsawn that were very stiff, a lot more stiff than any of the guitars we build. In fact, if you ask our players, I think you'd be hard pressed to find many who'd describe the feel of a Vinetto with quartersawn as stiff at all. As far as how it reacts to the string movement, I do agree that the two cuts will react, vibrate and transfer energy differently, which can account the tighter tone of the wood, but I really don't believe you can "feel" the difference in the neck woods if you played them side by side, all things being equal (identical construction, setup, attack, etc.)

As far as the EJ, check the saddle height. On a Strat, high saddles can mean lots of extra tension. The strings can be very low to the frets, but if the saddle are high (like if the neck is pitched back a bit), the guitar can feel a little tight.

[bullet]

So Vince should I shim the neck on the headstock end of the pocket which will raise the strings and then lower the saddles and that might lower tension?

[iamdavea]

The cut of the wood has NO bearing on string tension; how could it? It's not doing anything to affect string length.

[2leod]

The most dramatic flame comes with a quartered cut...but many including me like the flatsawn flame look (but for me only on tops as I do not use figured maple on any neck).

Why is that Terry ... Or is that too involved of a question ..?

I'm interested in this too - I'm not a big fan of the flames or quilts, but if I had to choose I would say that the a sawn figure is more visually attractive to me than a quarter sawn. I read that a flame or quilt figure is not a distortion of the grain but rather a distortion of the fibers - maybe this is the reason?

(And maybe I should just stop yapping until someone who knows what they are talking about weighs in...:o)

[Maculan]

I've played plenty of other guitars with flatsawn that were very stiff, a lot more stiff than any of the guitars we build.

Vince, is that why some people shim the neck pocket on the bolt-on guitars? To adjust the neck angle so the guitar doesn't feel as stiff?

I got the part about saddle height, but I'm guessing that maybe sometimes the neck angle can't be adjusted based on the setup (relief, saddle height, etc.) alone???

Thanks for clearing all this up.

[buddastrat]

Hey Budda, we've been using quartersawn exclusively on the Vinetto Artifacts for the past 3 or so years, and in that time I've built a couple hundred guitars with nothing but quartersawn. I've also built a buttload of other guitars with flat and I sure couldn't say that quartersawn feels any stiffer than the flatsawn as any kind of "rule" when I set them up the same way.

I've played plenty of other guitars with flatsawn that were very stiff, a lot more stiff than any of the guitars we build. In fact, if you ask our players, I think you'd be hard pressed to find many who'd describe the feel of a Vinetto with quartersawn as stiff at all. As far as how it reacts to the string movement, I do agree that the two cuts will react, vibrate and transfer energy differently, which can account the tighter tone of the wood, but I really don't believe you can "feel" the difference in the neck woods if you played them side by side, all things being equal (identical construction, setup, attack, etc.)

As far as the EJ, check the saddle height. On a Strat, high saddles can mean lots of extra tension. The strings can be very low to the frets, but if the saddle are high (like if the neck is pitched back a bit), the guitar can feel a little tight.


I'd love to try one of yours, Vince. No shops around me stock them. On the EJ, I've done all that (shim neck forward to lower saddles), and more. I've played quite a few of them and they all had that feel. If you read lots of guitar forums, the EJ is a notoriously stiff player by lots of folks. And it's instantly noticeable to me even by only fingerpicking open strings, it always feels tight, like you're picking the strings right near the bridge saddles. And that's with the saddles low, very weird.

[iamdavea]

On the EJs, that could be because Eric insisted on a trem block in which the strings were secured at the very end of the block, resulting in a longer (by an inch or so) total string length.

[shallbe]

On the EJs, that could be because Eric insisted on a trem block in which the strings were secured at the very end of the block, resulting in a longer (by an inch or so) total string length.

Exactly.

[shallbe]

But does it create a stiffer playing feel ...?
Or is that a myth ...

Sounds like a more immediate attack from the Quartersawn would make up for that in a way ....
even if it did create more tension

However, once had an EJ strat and it had an extremely stiff feel to it..
something I just couldn't get used to ...

My guitar (Suhr T) does not have a stiff feel to it, IMO. And it has a 7.5 to 9.5 radius. maple board, SS frets, and I play with 11's. Initially, I thought the setup from the setup from Suhr was a little stiff, but that was due to the action being too low for me and the fact I like a tad more relief in the neck. Once I made those adjustments, it has become one of my favorite guitars, sound and feel-wise.

I think necks that are too straight often contribute to a stiffer feel. Not enough relief makes bending harder to me.

[Terry McInturff]

Is the question regarding why I do not use figured maple for necks?

If so...

The reason why I do not use figured necks is to ensure that my zero-return for any neck problems whatsoever record remains intact for as long as possible.

Im pushing the limits for that at over 3000 TCM necks in the field.

Note that I believe that a good neck can be made of flamed rock maple...but I do not trust it.

I have to say that the relative instability of figured rock maple...as regards necks...is one of those "givens" in this industry, yet I see many continue to take the risk. Maybe someone will decode the recipe without over reinforcing the neck.

I know that even a solid 1"wide x 3/8" thick x 18" long bar of solid graphite composite will not stabalise a piece of rock maple that is known to be unruly. I have experimented (back in the day) and have satisfied myself that this is indeed the case.

The power of wood movement, over time, is incredibly willful and untamable...and this is frustrating because such a huge amount of material has to be rejected and lost. A HUGE amount if one is building for the ages.

Ive learned that you cannot order a single piece of neck wood and go ahead and use it. It is a damn shame...a lot of wood has to be sticked and watched. Much of it has to be discarded. You gotta build for the ages...and for "touring with the truss rod cover on"....cant really count on onesy-twosey neck blanks....doing so will start to bite you in a few years, I think.

It's almost like the power of erosion....the mountain is sturdy, huge, and hard...but will be worn down by mere raindrops.

The builder simply MUST build with stable neck woods and NOT count upon artificial stabalisers to make-up for unstable neck woods. This should be common knowledge by now yet, I see the same old mistakes being made over, and over (add echo) and over...and over.....and over.............

[Bassomatic]

Great post, Terry.

[buddastrat]

On the EJs, that could be because Eric insisted on a trem block in which the strings were secured at the very end of the block, resulting in a longer (by an inch or so) total string length.


Did you read my post? Take the EJ neck and stick it on any strat body with any trem block, and it is still a stiff player. I tried it all!

[MarkF786]

The conversation has been focused on quartersawn necks; how about quartersawn bodies?

I have a '98 Parker Fly Tulipwood (aka Poplar) which is essentially the same guitar as my '98 Parker Fly Deluxe. Same wood type, same electronics, etc - but for the Tulipwood models, Ken Parker chose some high-quality quartersawn Poplar and called it a limited-edition Tulipwood. There definitely is a noticeable difference in sound. The sound is brighter, more snappy, and there's more sustain.

Has anyone had experience with quartersawn bodies? What are your thoughts?

Mark

[Joe F]

since i moved to 1/4 sawn, the neck requires much less adjustment from environmental changes. I find flat sawn guitars that I have owned vibrated more, though many factors contribute to that, in my case the only variable was flat/quarter sawn as i had settled on the rest of the specs that I prefer by then.

[aarondavis]

Did you read my post? Take the EJ neck and stick it on any strat body with any trem block, and it is still a stiff player. I tried it all!

I've heard it can be due to no string tree too...? Isn't this the case?

I can't imagine how a neck wood in itself can physically cause *strings* to feel more stiff.

But I do 100% agree that the Eric Johnson sigs can be stiff. I almost bought one, but had it home for a few days and couldn't stand the stiff feel. That doesn't stop me from wanting a CA Red one really bad...:drool

[Rocket Brother]

But does it create a stiffer playing feel ...?
Or is that a myth ...

Sounds like a more immediate attack from the Quartersawn would make up for that in a way ....
even if it did create more tension

However, once had an EJ strat and it had an extremely stiff feel to it..
something I just couldn't get used to ...

I greatly preferre QS necks to flatsawn necks also on bolt-on neck guitars.
I find – in my opinion and to my ears anyway – that QS has a few huge advantages to flatsawn
1) I find that QS necks are a lot more stable than flatsawn necks, this translates into instruments that are a lot more consistent in feel and playabillty from one night to another, that should be a big plus for anyone, but for a gigging or touring guitarist that is a huge plus.
2) Sonically I find that I almost always greatly preferre the sound of a QS neck guitar, because there is a certain snap and enhanced dynamics in especially the attack of the notes – very important for me and the way I play anyway.
3) Visually – this might be a muh point – I really like the way a QS look compaired to a flatsawn or a flame neck, the QS is not over the top, it just looks like a piece of real high quality tone wood. I find the lines in the wood of a QS neck beautifull to look at.
Maybe this is just my brain playing tricks with me on the visual aspects, because I think the QS necks are sonically superior.

To the OP
I´ve never played a guitar with a QS neck that felt stiff to play – I´m not saying they don´t exist – I´ve just never tried one.
On the contrary I´ve played a lot of flatsawn neck guitars that were horribly stiff feeling.
I personally think that the stiffness has a lot more to do with the way the neck is constructed and the way a guitar is set up, than weather it is made with a QS or flatsawn neck.
Acturally QS wood is a lot more expensive for the luthiers to buy and use, so the neck on a guitar with a QS neck is procentagewise more likely to be well constructed and the guitar to be well setup than a guitar with a flatsawn neck – just saying.
Hope this helps you
RB

[fullerplast]

It's pretty much a given that QS will be stiffer than flatsawn, all else being equal. Because of that, when you bend a note, the neck will flex less.....a softer neck actually gives you more relief as you bend strings and gives a "looser" feel. It's very easy to demonstrate by hitting an open low E string while doing a full bend on the D or G strings. You'll hear the E go flat. (You could even measure the degree of flex using a strobe tuner if you wanted.) To that extent, comparing two necks on the same guitar that differ only in cut, would likely result in the QS feeling stiffer. In practice however, there are other contributing factors that can be more significant than the neck cut, so a stiff feeling guitar can certainly be a result of several other things.

As for tone, I've found QS necks to be brighter when swapped on the same guitar with the few I've used.

For stability, it makes sense that QS would be the most stable cut and therefore the lowest risk for a builder. Personally, I've never had a stability problem with any cut, or with flame necks on my guitars, but I could certainly see where flat or flame would be more likely to have problems if not properly stabilized prior to construction. Flame can certainly remain stable for long periods of time, as many many vintage violins, cellos, violas, etc have demonstrated....without truss rods.

[bullet]

On the EJs, that could be because Eric insisted on a trem block in which the strings were secured at the very end of the block, resulting in a longer (by an inch or so) total string length.

Im going to shim my neck and lower the saddles and see if that loosens things up a bit. If thats not enough Im a machinist so I will make a new trem block with deeper counter bores for the string recess and see if it makes a difference.

[bullet]

Ok I shimmed the neck .025 and lowered the saddles and it did loosen things up considerably. I can feel a difference and also had my trem set to float and afterwords it was flush against the body when tuned to pitch. It feels pretty good now but I think I will make a new trem block and see what that does.

[jads57]

I have a custom made neck by Doug at Soulmate Guitars. It`s a beautiful 5 peice flame maple w/ padouk( I beleive) center stripes, and a thick Pau Ferro fingerboard This neck is for my G&L Asat Super (hence bolt on). I cant beleive how resonant and non stiff it feels as far as string tension. And I`m using 11`s on this guitar. Even though my original neck mahogany w/ebony fingerboard sounded nice, this is a definite improvement. I never would have gone this route but Doug had suggested it over a trad. one peice and 2 peice neck.

[bgl]

Terry mentions that you would never build a neck with flatsawn mahogany. Why is that? Is that a tonal issue, or a stability issue, or both??

[buddastrat]

It's pretty much a given that QS will be stiffer than flatsawn, all else being equal. Because of that, when you bend a note, the neck will flex less.....a softer neck actually gives you more relief as you bend strings and gives a "looser" feel. It's very easy to demonstrate by hitting an open low E string while doing a full bend on the D or G strings. You'll hear the E go flat. (You could even measure the degree of flex using a strobe tuner if you wanted.) To that extent, comparing two necks on the same guitar that differ only in cut, would likely result in the QS feeling stiffer. In practice however, there are other contributing factors that can be more significant than the neck cut, so a stiff feeling guitar can certainly be a result of several other things.

As for tone, I've found QS necks to be brighter when swapped on the same guitar with the few I've used.

For stability, it makes sense that QS would be the most stable cut and therefore the lowest risk for a builder. Personally, I've never had a stability problem with any cut, or with flame necks on my guitars, but I could certainly see where flat or flame would be more likely to have problems if not properly stabilized prior to construction. Flame can certainly remain stable for long periods of time, as many many vintage violins, cellos, violas, etc have demonstrated....without truss rods.


Yes! That's exactly what I was saying, the "neck give" is what I think a lot of what determines the feel.

I was just doing this recently. My nocaster has a flamey/birdseyed flatsawn neck that's super thick and it's much easier to bend the neck and make the pitch change compared to my Cunetto that has a way thinner 1/4 sawn neck.

[iamdavea]

I don't believe ANY neck is going to have enough "give" to it to impart a perceptible feeling of slackness or looseness to the overall feel of the guitar. This is all in your imagination.

[K-Line]

Nothing on the tension. The truss becomes less of an asset. I personally do not like quater sawn, rip sawn is ok. I like the grain at the heal to be like 45 degrees, looks good and the truss reacts well. Flat is a dream in a consistant climate as I lkie maximum adjustment ability that it provides, but loses some beauty in the grain.

[Terry McInturff]

Terry mentions that you would never build a neck with flatsawn mahogany. Why is that? Is that a tonal issue, or a stability issue, or both??

Stability and stiffness.

Rock Maple is more forgiving in that regard...but it does not change the fact that quartersawn wood changes dimensions less (in reaction to it's environment} than does flatsawn wood.

From a technical view...all other things being equal...using quartersawn wood for necks...regardless of species...is the way to go IMO.

I believe that Fender was the first big builder to use flatsawn wood in any quantity for necks; prior to that, one did not see this often except on amatuer instruments.

[larc]

I don't believe ANY neck is going to have enough "give" to it to impart a perceptible feeling of slackness or looseness to the overall feel of the guitar. This is all in your imagination.

Ok, I took fullerplast's suggestion on using a tuner.

I got 2 Teles with quartersawn necks. I let the open low E strings ring out and bent the G strings up a whole step (at the 9th fret). Both times, the open E strings went slightly flat on the Peterson tuner. If this is happening on quartersawn necks, I would easily assume the difference is greater with flatsawn necks.

The question is, how much does a neck flex under normal playing? Or how much flexing is going on when the strings are vibrating? Strings should see less tension as the neck flexes. Less string tension would promote a darker sound and saggier / looser feel.

[pcovers]

I don't believe ANY neck is going to have enough "give" to it to impart a perceptible feeling of slackness or looseness to the overall feel of the guitar. This is all in your imagination.

Based just on principles of physics, I have to agree. If you could actually feel a slackness or looseness, then there would be a whole lot of other things that would be obvious and apparent with things like being able to keep strings at pitch and chords going out of pitch as you fretted and the "slackness" showed itself.

There are reasons one might not want to use flat sawn or figured wood for necks, but none that have to do with a neck being slack or loose feeling.

[iamdavea]

Let's assume that your whole tone bend pulled the tension 1 cent flat. That's at the apex of your bend. Do you really think that your hand is going to actually feel that minute diminishing of tension in the neck as you're BENDING, and still ACCUMULATING the force that is going to slacken the tension? I simply don't believe that would be a perceptible, recognizable phenomenon. If you happen to think so, and thus believe that your particular neck is "less stiff" than some other neck, fine with me. But a player telling me he can distinguish the difference would be even more remarkable to me than Eric Johnson telling me which wah had the Duracell and which had the Eveready.

[fullerplast]

Ever play a DC LP Jr vs a SC Jr? An SG vs a LP? Leslie West has said that even though he preferred the tone of a DC better, the neck was too "loose" so he had to use a SC. Yeah, chords do go out of tune and you can do faux tremolos by shaking a loose neck.

Granted, the attachment point of the body accounts for much of the difference in those examples, but it is very easy to feel a bendable neck IMHO, even on the same type guitars. Similar to a floating trem, double stop dissonance becomes noticeable. Truss rod type, wood orientation, thickness of the neck, fret board, and frets all contribute to the stiffness. I'm actually a bit surprised to hear there are people that don't notice a difference in the stiffness of necks.....

[iamdavea]

Chords go out of tune on a slim neck because of tensions placed on the neck by an over energized or enthusiastic player applying too much arm or hand tension--the neck is being flexed by MUSCLE, not by string tension.

[iamdavea]

And please try to explain how FRETS can contribute to neck stiffness?????

[fullerplast]

String tension while bending is a dynamic force, just as yanking on a neck. You can hear it, you can see it on a tuner. Hell, even changing the orientation of the guitar without touching the neck can change the tuning. Why do you think you need to re-adjust the truss rod after changing string gauges? That's string tension at work. When you bend strings you are increasing tension....and the neck bends.

Frets? Of course frets affect stiffness of the neck. Basic physics. Nickle silver does not compress like wood. You have the compression of the fretboard from the tangs and the fret surface on the fingerboard. The frets are 22 metal wedges in the neck. They can also change the shape of the neck as well as the stiffness. This is considered fairly common knowledge....I'm not making it up.

[larc]

Comparing quartersawn, flatsawn, riftsawn...I sure can't tell if any of these necks are flexing more than the other while I'm playing them. However, people say our ears are more sensitive than our eyes...just because you can't see your neck flexing doesn't mean it isn't happening. Also, if you're neck didn't flex, then it wouldn't be vibrating. I think everyone can feel their neck vibrate when they strum their guitar.

Quartersawn necks definitely feel stiffer. Try mimicking a dive bar or tremolo...grabbing the headstock and bending the neck forward to decrease pitch of the string(s). It takes more effort on a quartersawn neck.

Some luthiers prefer narrow, tight fret slots (so the fret tang sits tighter in the slot). It promotes better resonance and offers more resistance to bowing when string tension is applied to the neck...in this sense it would contribute to a stiffer neck.

[beforetone]

This has been a personal topic of mine for a while now. One maple neck flatsawn, one maple w/rosewood flatsawn and one maple w/rosewood quartersawn. My test was grasp the headstock sort of like you fret the neck ( four fingers on the face and your thumb on the back) pick some strings and bend the headstock and WTF it flexes! The quartersawn neck is very hard to get as much flex as the flatsawn necks. I went to the guitar show last weekend thinking I could ask someone about this and decided not to ask!!!!

[pcovers]

Frets? Of course frets affect stiffness of the neck. Basic physics. Nickle silver does not compress like wood. You have the compression of the fretboard from the tangs and the fret surface on the fingerboard. The frets are 22 metal wedges in the neck. They can also change the shape of the neck as well as the stiffness. This is considered fairly common knowledge....I'm not making it up.

Since 90%+ of all guitars out there have almost identical alloy frets, would not whatever contribution to stiffness was added by frets be canceled out, or is the coefficient of stiffness from frets different for quartersawn than for flat sawn? Which adds more perceptible difference to tone and/or stiffness and feel, abalone or MOP inlays; which would affect the rigidity more, pau dots or ivoroid? Would bound fretboards offer an effect that can be sensed? If so, which would be more noticeable ebony binding or plastic? Would frets that are glued in be more perceptible than those in place by friction alone?

Nothing in the universe does not have some impact on everything else in the universe. When it comes to guitars, there is a point where it really doesn't matter what has an effect on what if it is not predictable and repeatable. There are as many examples that do not fit a specific guitar lore as there are that do. There are a bunch of guitars with bolt necks and ash bodies that sustain till the cows come home, kinda like a set neck mahogany guitar.

Just when it appears all things know to affect guitar tone and playability and the molecular level is known.....

[fullerplast]

Since 90%+ of all guitars out there have almost identical alloy frets, would not whatever contribution to stiffness was added by frets be canceled out, or is the coefficient of stiffness from frets different for quartersawn than for flat sawn?

No. It's not due to a difference in fret alloys; it's the fret tang size, fret slot size/depth, and fret size that affect stiffness.....along with all the other factors previously mentioned: neck thickness, truss rod, fretboard, wood type, and cut of the wood - which is where this thread started.

[iamdavea]

Frets have absolutely NO bearing on a neck's stability, since they offer no resistance to the direction in which the neck is primarily going to flex. If frets were mounted ON THE SAME PLANE AS THE NECK--that is, lengthwise, that might be the case. As it is, horizontal frets can not offer a countervailing force to a neck that wants to bend over its length. How do you guys come up with this stuff?

[larc]

Frets have absolutely NO bearing on a neck's stability, since they offer no resistance to the direction in which the neck is primarily going to flex.


Let me try to explain it another way...

Say you have an old Martin acoustic that doesn't have a trussrod. It still has its vintage frets and you feel there's slightly too much neck relief. I'm told luthiers can sometimes correct relief by refretting the neck with jumbo fret wire. Jumbo frets have larger, wider tangs. When you force a jumbo fret tang into a narrow fret slot, the sides of the tang forces the wood in an outward direction (same direction when you tighten a trussrod). Repeating this process throughout the entire fretboard produces a similar effect as in slightly tightening a trussrod. If your fret slots are cut wider than your tangs, your neck would have less resistance to withstand string tension and you would have to rely more on the trussrod to straighten the neck.

Fullerplast mentioned fret slot depth effecting neck stiffness. I never gave that much thought, but I imagine he's right. In theory, it makes sense. If we exagerate the depth of fret slots so they penetrate more than 3/4s of the way into a neck, the neck WOULD have less resistance to withstand string tention. The big question is whether having slots that are cut just slightly deeper than the tang would be significant enough to produce a notable difference.

[fup]

pick some strings and bend the headstock and WTF it flexes!

But what's flexing? The neck or the joint? :p

[beforetone]

But what's flexing? The neck or the joint? :p
When I twist the headstock a little rebound is felt at the joint on the flatsawn necks. The quarter sawn neck hardly any movement at the joint/pocket. This is something that caught my attention after becoming a strat player. I have done the dive bombs on set neck guitars (30 years ago!)and never worried or checked how flimsy a mohagany neck could be.

[JBG]

Flex at the pocket isn't the same as flex from a flat or quartersawn neck.

As far as grabbing the headstock & "bending" the neck, if the pocket strength is equal (ie: 2 set neck designs constructed the same way) then the quartersawn will be stiffer. I think Terry posted about grain structure earlier in this thread.

[JBG]

Fullerplast mentioned fret slot depth effecting neck stiffness. I never gave that much thought, but I imagine he's right. In theory, it makes sense. If we exagerate the depth of fret slots so they penetrate more than 3/4s of the way into a neck, the neck WOULD have less resistance to withstand string tention. The big question is whether having slots that are cut just slightly deeper than the tang would be significant enough to produce a notable difference.

True.. but I think the string tension would compensate for an deeper slot, as the tension is compressing the neck/fretboard squeezing the slots tighter into the fret tang. Of course, if you grab the headstock & yank back, you defeat the tension, it might flex... blah blah blah. ;) Actually, now that I'm re-reading what I typed, maybe "compensate" isn't the right word. If the slot IS deeper, then with no sting tension there would be a slight increase in backward flex, but again, unless you're yanking the neck around...

[paul p]

Hey Budda, we've been using quartersawn exclusively on the Vinetto Artifacts for the past 3 or so years, and in that time I've built a couple hundred guitars with nothing but quartersawn. I've also built a buttload of other guitars with flat and I sure couldn't say that quartersawn feels any stiffer than the flatsawn as any kind of "rule" when I set them up the same way.

I've played plenty of other guitars with flatsawn that were very stiff, a lot more stiff than any of the guitars we build. In fact, if you ask our players, I think you'd be hard pressed to find many who'd describe the feel of a Vinetto with quartersawn as stiff at all...

:agree

[Lucidology]

Very informative thread (if I must say so myself)

[Husky]

1/4swn is bold and punchy. I find it less bright than flat sawn but this is a huge generalization as is the concept that you could feel the difference in string tension. There are about 10 other items that would take big precedence over the cut of the wood, also since we are talking organic material no two will be identical. I love 1/4 swn especially since my supplier seems to have really stable wood. My previous experience at a company that used a lot of faster growth Canadian wood was not so favorable and they had better luck with rift or flat since when the necks would move at least with flat sawn it could be adjusted out, if 1/4 Moves it might have more of a tendency to move sideways. No I know Sadowsky told me of an article somewhere that maple was unique in that it can not be compared to faster growing softer woods. The difference between the strength of qtr and Flat maple was not as great as other species, something to do with the cell structure. You could also theorize that 1/4 will be louder if it doesnt vibrate as much, too much vibration sucks up the tone.

I find brand of strings to be major in string tension, also a string tree seems to loosen up the E and B but has other drawbacks in tuning stability.

[Husky]

Did you read my post? Take the EJ neck and stick it on any strat body with any trem block, and it is still a stiff player. I tried it all!

I have noticed an excessive amount of finish on those fingerboards (needed due to so much tint) and not very tall frets That will make the guitar play very stiff.

[K-Line]

Is this a fact?
No!

[buddastrat]

I have noticed an excessive amount of finish on those fingerboards (needed due to so much tint) and not very tall frets That will make the guitar play very stiff.


That's very true, but a lot of it is noticed with the open string perceived tension on the EJ strats. Only fingerpicking the open strings I feel it's tighter ( like tuned to F instead of E) than other strats with the same strings and same tuning. I did this blindfolded with three strats, and felt the tightness of the EJ everytime only feeling/playing the strings open.