Any of you guys play harp (harmonica)?

[stevel]

I'm trying to figure out what notes are being created when you blow, draw, and bend (draw bends for now) in 2nd position (cross harp).

I've just discovered there are also 2nd and 3rd positions as well - so if you know about those, chime in.

I read and think in notes, so the "tab" for harp I find to be a bit confusing and counterituitive. I also think in "generic" terms as "scale degrees" so that approach is better still (considering you can buy harps in many keys).

So for example, I know hole 3 in cross harp is 1 blow, 3 draw, and b3 bent.

So if you can list them similarly, that would be helpful.

I've got an old blues harp, and some of the notes don't come out clearly - so I know what they are on this harp, but I don't think that's what they're *supposed* to be on a standard harp :-)

TIA,
Steve

[8Painting]

I used to in high school, I was really into it for a while. I got pretty good at it, had the green bullet and all that jazz. Then one day, I just got really turned off by it. It's like something switched off in my head. Never got back into it.

When you draw in, to be able to bend you almost close your lips all the way and suck as hard as you can through the small opening. Its hard to explain an instrument when you can see how its played.

[guitgator]

I've been playing for 35 years and I think it's just one of those things where you think in terms of positions and try not to over-analyze it too much. You can get alternate tuning harps (Lee Oskar makes some) and minor keys etc.

When I started playing it was all about Lee Oskar and Magic Dick....you just sorta listened and figured out what the were doing by rote.

I'm guessin' you know that in cross harp style you buy the key of the harp that's the 4th to the root key you want to play in.....A harp for key of E.....F harp for key of C etc.

you can get some cool stuff on the higher reeds by blowing and bending downwards...just use it sparingly or people will want to kill you as you burst their eardrums. I remember someone actually sued J Geils Band claiming Dick's solos caused them hearing damage...I can sorta believe it....though I still would've laughed at the suit in court.

I'm a big fan of the Hohner Special Twenty harps because they have a plastic body and you can soak them to unclog the reeds without the body expanding like on Marine Bands.

[TRIODEROB]

buy this and it will save you alot trouble

after buying this and playing for 2 years I got pretty good


just remember that it is a much harder instrument to learn then guitar
you can not bullshit your way thru it - you must learn how to bend by breathing thru your
diaphragm and that is not easy

http://www.harpmaster.com/lessons.htm


http://www.harpmaster.com/images/products.gif

[guitgator]

Excellent Triod! I believe Portnoy is the dude who played on Clapton's blues record a few years back....he covers a lot of ground.

[RickNew]

I've been playing for 35 years and I think it's just one of those things where you think in terms of positions and try not to over-analyze it too much. You can get alternate tuning harps (Lee Oskar makes some) and minor keys etc.

When I started playing it was all about Lee Oskar and Magic Dick....you just sorta listened and figured out what the were doing by rote.

I'm guessin' you know that in cross harp style you buy the key of the harp that's the 4th to the root key you want to play in.....A harp for key of E.....F harp for key of C etc.

you can get some cool stuff on the higher reeds by blowing and bending downwards...just use it sparingly or people will want to kill you as you burst their eardrums. I remember someone actually sued J Geils Band claiming Dick's solos caused them hearing damage...I can sorta believe it....though I still would've laughed at the suit in court.

I'm a big fan of the Hohner Special Twenty harps because they have a plastic body and you can soak them to unclog the reeds without the body expanding like on Marine Bands.

Are you soaking your Special twentys in anything other than water?

[Hootad Binky]

D and C harps are a good start. A and G will be too low for blues.

Starting points:

Blow out = key of harp/folk harp playing (Dylan/Young)

Blow in = blues key/playing

[guitgator]

I just use water and I usually don't soak them at all during gigs. I always run warm water through them prior....smack them face down into a towel to get as much out as possible then blow and draw through them to get any water off all the reeds. If a reed gets stuck you might try putting the harp in some boiling water with a little vinegar for just a minute or so....it won't harm the plastic for that short amount of time.....just pull them out with tongs and let it cool before seeing if the reed has come unstuck. I've done this successfully many times.

Break 'em in slowly so you don't permanantly bend a reed where it won't come all the way back to pitch. I learned that the hard way by playing new harps at gigs in the early days.....when your adrenalin's pumpin at a gig you can toast a harp in no time.

Are you soaking your Special twentys in anything other than water?

[Ed Packer]

Regarding those special twenties, do they sound different form the Marine Band ?
I'm guessing the plastic makes a difference.......

[skydog]

Regarding those special twenties, do they sound different form the Marine Band ?
I'm guessing the plastic makes a difference.......
They do, but if your amping your harp and playing with any effects, it's very negligible.

[tedm]

I find a G diatonic harp works well when playing a full step down on the guitar.

Also recommend a Hohner German made harp holder, < $20 or so at MF.

[teleman65]

When I first started playing harp I played a diatonic 10 hole in the key of the song whether it was blues or not. I primarily played Neil Young type stuff so it was okay but I knew some blues licks but they never seemed right.

I was out busking and sounding slightly off when some hippie dude :D stopped by and chatted. He explained cross harp to me.
When you play cross harp you end up with a flatted seventh(mixolydian mode) which when you include bending notes gives it the bluesy character we know from all of the old Blues records. (check out how many jazz players use the mixolydian mode in blues)
Double crossing would give you a Dorian mode sound.
That encounter was a revelation to me in my harp playing and guitar playing since at that time I was playing box position pentatonic leads.

[musicofanatic5]

D and C harps are a good start. A and G will be too low for blues.

Starting points:

Blow out = key of harp/folk harp playing (Dylan/Young)

Blow in = blues key/playing

I don't get this. An "A" harp too low for blues?!? In blues, 2nd position is generally employed, and an "A" harp in second position plays in E. Isn't every single blues tune (okay, except maybe three or four) in E?!?! And a "G" harp isn't going to do you much good unless you're doing a lot of Elmore James (key o' D), or play it in first position. Maybe I'm taking this guy too much to task, but how d'ya "blow in"? Y'don't blow in, you suck!

Hey, I wonder want the original poster wanted and if he got it yet?

[jordanL]

I'd agree. probably about 70% of recorded blues harp is using an A harp in the Key of E, but I do think its easier to learn on a D harp..

To the OP, 3rd position is like the dorian mode- 4 draw is the key so a C hap would play a D minor blues. There are a number of other positions, Cahrlie Musselwhite does lots of playing in other positions, and "modern" players like Howard Levy push the diatonic harp further than ever before.

[skydog]

Most of Neil's stuff is in straight harp as is Dylan's. Not all, but most.

[mcknigs]

>I remember someone actually sued J Geils Band claiming Dick's solos caused them hearing damage...I can sorta believe it....though I still would've laughed at the suit in court.


Yeah, there's that one place in Wammer Jammer, after a phrase that goes up in thirds, there's a blown note* that's bent from the octave down to the flat 7th blowing at the top of the harp...

dee-deedle-eedit...
dee-deedle-eedit...
dee-deedle-eedit...
*DEE-OOOO!!!!

Me and a few guys I hung out with in HS played harp and none of us could stand to be in the same room with anyone who was going for that bend. Too piercing.

-Scott

[guitgator]

It's easy on a lower key harp....like an A or G....lots of vibrato on that note too ....you can do a bunch of that stuff in straight harp also. I've seen quite a few guys use two harps at once...one cross and one straight .


Yeah, there's that one place in Wammer Jammer, after a phrase that goes up in thirds, there's a blown note* that's bent from the octave down to the flat 7th blowing at the top of the harp...

dee-deedle-eedit...
dee-deedle-eedit...
dee-deedle-eedit...
*DEE-OOOO!!!!

Me and a few guys I hung out with in HS played harp and none of us could stand to be in the same room with anyone who was going for that bend. Too piercing.

-Scott

[mcknigs]

It's easy on a lower key harp....like an A or G....

I was only ever able to do it on an A harp. At least I don't recall trying it in G. Definitely not higher.

-Scott

[guitgator]

you can bend the second from last reed if not the top one on the higher keyed harps....

I was only ever able to do it on an A harp. At least I don't recall trying it in G. Definitely not higher.

-Scott

[stevel]

Hey, I wonder want the original poster wanted and if he got it yet?

Not really.

I'm looking for the NOTES produced when each hole is blown, drawn, and bent.

I understand cross harp (which I've discovered is also called second position) and Mixolydian mode, and blues scales, etc.

So I'm hoping to see:

Hole 4 - on a G harp, G blow, A draw, Ab bent, or in scale degrees - hole 4 = 1 blow, 2 draw, b2 bent, or something like that.

Thanks,
Steve

[stevel]

I'd agree. probably about 70% of recorded blues harp is using an A harp in the Key of E, but I do think its easier to learn on a D harp..

To the OP, 3rd position is like the dorian mode- 4 draw is the key so a C hap would play a D minor blues. There are a number of other positions, Cahrlie Musselwhite does lots of playing in other positions, and "modern" players like Howard Levy push the diatonic harp further than ever before.


Can you write out the pitches on all the holes (or link me to a chart - I couldn't figure out the harmonica "tab" - I'd rather see pitches or scale degree names)

Steve

[skydog]

Steve: Here's a cool site with lots of info: http://www.harmonicalessons.com/

[EJW]

I started to write this stuff out, but found this link (http://www.michael-thomas.com/music/class/harmonica_notes.htm) instead. Much prettier than what I would have written.

[jordanL]

Can you write out the pitches on all the holes (or link me to a chart - I couldn't figure out the harmonica "tab" - I'd rather see pitches or scale degree names)

Steve


At the bottom of the page is a chart the numbers below and above show the bends available on a c harp.
http://www.leeoskar.com/major.html


Thsi page will give a lot of great information on playing harp - stuff I wish more harp players knew:
http://www.harmonicasessions.com (http://www.harmonicasessions.com/)

[MikeNiteRail]

This is without the bends...

http://www.coast2coastmusic.com/diatonic/tune_charts.shtml

As a harp player, I've noticed some inaccuracies in some of the posts. I would like to clarify that ALL the holes on a harmonica can be bent up and down in pitch. It is super hard, but it can be done.

The "typical" harmonica player will bend draw holes 1-6 down in pitch. Depending on the whole this can go from a semitone to a step and a half. Holes 8-10 can be bent on the blow notes. Hole ten can play up to a step down.

Hole 7 doesn't really blow or draw bend. Five will bend down on the draw but is used typically for expression and not the actual note.

Advanced players can blow and draw bend (called overblowing) on all holes...pretty much giving you three full octaves.

Most blues and rock harp is played in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd position. HOWEVER, I would consider learning 4th, 5th, 11th, and 12th too! Just like with guitar there are relative minors and majors that double up and make learning easier.

Check out my YouTube page linked below...Whippin' Post is in 3rd and 2nd pos. Refugee is in 11th. If you listen to the covers clip, I Will Survive is in 4th.

[MikeNiteRail]

I was only ever able to do it on an A harp. At least I don't recall trying it in G. Definitely not higher.

-Scott

That can be done on any harp...not that it should be. If you listen to Run-Around by Blues Traveler, the 2nd and 3rd solos have him playing that bend on a C harmonica.

Bends are typically easier on lower keyed harps....C on down. Overblows tend to be easier on the middle keys...with C being the middle.

You can get harps tuned an octave down. That makes using a F or F# harp for blow bends easier to listen to. They take much better tone to get the bends from though. I tend to use the low keys for solos and the regular tunings for rhythm playing (playing octave intervals for an organish sound).

[stevel]

At the bottom of the page is a chart the numbers below and above show the bends available on a c harp.
http://www.leeoskar.com/major.html




Sweet - this is what I was looking for.

Thanks to everyone!

Steve

[GerryJ]

Overall, blues harp seems to be an instrument with much higher maintanence - the reeds, etc - than a guitar player would be used to...true?

[guitgator]

not really.....the only thing is that you have to be careful not to blow out the reeds when they're new....totally the opposite of guitar where you bend and pull new strings to get them to settle in. Once you break a harp in properly there's really no maintenance unless you play after eating peanut butter crackers or something. :)

Overall, blues harp seems to be an instrument with much higher maintanence - the reeds, etc - than a guitar player would be used to...true?