I'm drawing the line on cheap gigs and scheduling insanity

[Jeff Michael]

Just sent this email out to all the cats I work for:

"Howdy, bandleader! You're getting this email because you've hired me for bass work in the past, and I really appreciate that.

But from this date forward, I have two requirements that I am absolutely sticking to.

1.) Any offers of work must come to me via email. No more "check the MySpace/band website"; I have had a few too many last-minute schedule near-catastrophes due to nebulous communication. With emails I have a reliably datestamped paper trail of what came in when, so that in the event of a schedule conflict I know who was in the book first...which will of course continue to be my number one criterion for what I'm doing on a given night.

2.) I won't take any future gigs without a guaranteed minimum payday of $100. I did think long and hard about this one. Ultimately the deciding factor was how we all inevitably bitch about how those bar owner bastards try to screw us at every opportunity--and yet we inevitably let them. So I am doing my part to make a stand about how much our efforts should be worth. As I often say, I surely do love music, and if you want to hear the music I love you're welcome to hang out in my basement until I wander down--whenever I feel like it, wearing whatever I happen to be wearing, having shaved and showered or not--and play whatever I like for however long as I like. That's free of charge. For me to shower, shave, dress up a little, pile my gear in a car, drive to wherever, move all my shit from the car to the venue, play three 1-hour sets, pile the gear back into the car, drive home, and finally move the gear from the car back to the house...that's $100. Which is still an absolute sin, but whatever.

So I just updated my datebook with all the engagements that are on the schedule so far (and once again, thanks for those). But from here on in, I'm not going to be able to accept any invitations to play that don't meet the previous two criteria.

Thanks!
Jeff"

I wonder how that'll go over. But ultimately it was just time to put a stop to the ripoff. Jeff's Rule: whatever you're willing to take is probably what you're gonna get.

JAM

['70 RS]

If that's the how it went out...to guys that are hiring you...I'm assuming you might have plenty of time to catch up on all the different CSI's and Law & Orders in the next few months.

Hope it works out for you though.

[HurricaneJesus]

Dude, I agree with you. Unfortunately, most bar owners are using 'hard times' as an excuse to pay us less. I always thought in hard times the alcohol industry booms but whatever.
I was just thankful that music wasn't my only stream of income....then I got laid off. Now I take whatever people want to give me...

[KRosser]

I reserve the right to treat each gig differently...

Anyway - the people that hire me regularly are used to getting a little more 'hands-on and personal' touch than such a bulk declaration would allow.

So - that would never work for me.

For you? Who knows?

[Jon C]

I agree with the principle but agree w/ Ken that I would have taken a different approach to those on whom I rely for my gigs & $$$ (assuming I still wanted to get gigs & $$). I'll be interested to see how this works out & hope you'll report back in 6 months or so (seriously).

jc

[GDking]

I reserve the right to treat each gig differently...

Anyway - the people that hire me regularly are used to getting a little more 'hands-on and personal' touch than such a bulk declaration would allow.

So - that would never work for me.

For you? Who knows?


Bass players are held to a lower set of standards :) Harder to find a good one that is not a frustrated guitarist when playing.

[keefsdad]

Just sent this email out to all the cats I work for:

"Howdy, bandleader! You're getting this email because you've hired me for bass work in the past, and I really appreciate that.

But from this date forward, I have two requirements that I am absolutely sticking to.

1.) Any offers of work must come to me via email. No more "check the MySpace/band website"; I have had a few too many last-minute schedule near-catastrophes due to nebulous communication. With emails I have a reliably datestamped paper trail of what came in when, so that in the event of a schedule conflict I know who was in the book first...which will of course continue to be my number one criterion for what I'm doing on a given night.

2.) I won't take any future gigs without a guaranteed minimum payday of $100. I did think long and hard about this one. Ultimately the deciding factor was how we all inevitably bitch about how those bar owner bastards try to screw us at every opportunity--and yet we inevitably let them. So I am doing my part to make a stand about how much our efforts should be worth. As I often say, I surely do love music, and if you want to hear the music I love you're welcome to hang out in my basement until I wander down--whenever I feel like it, wearing whatever I happen to be wearing, having shaved and showered or not--and play whatever I like for however long as I like. That's free of charge. For me to shower, shave, dress up a little, pile my gear in a car, drive to wherever, move all my shit from the car to the venue, play three 1-hour sets, pile the gear back into the car, drive home, and finally move the gear from the car back to the house...that's $100. Which is still an absolute sin, but whatever.

So I just updated my datebook with all the engagements that are on the schedule so far (and once again, thanks for those). But from here on in, I'm not going to be able to accept any invitations to play that don't meet the previous two criteria.

Thanks!
Jeff"

I wonder how that'll go over. But ultimately it was just time to put a stop to the ripoff. Jeff's Rule: whatever you're willing to take is probably what you're gonna get.

JAM


Right on. I basically decided on those conditions a while ago, although I maybe didn't communicate them in such a clear fashion.
I don't work as much, but I'm not interested in being exploited, so I am ok with that. Good for you.:BEER
I should probably add that I am not trying to rely on music as my primary source of income. If I was, I might approach it differently. Or have to.

[Dog Boy]

Just sent this email out to all the cats I work for:

"Howdy, bandleader! You're getting this email because you've hired me for bass work in the past, and I really appreciate that.

But from this date forward, I have two requirements that I am absolutely sticking to.

1.) Any offers of work must come to me via email. No more "check the MySpace/band website"; I have had a few too many last-minute schedule near-catastrophes due to nebulous communication. With emails I have a reliably datestamped paper trail of what came in when, so that in the event of a schedule conflict I know who was in the book first...which will of course continue to be my number one criterion for what I'm doing on a given night.

2.) I won't take any future gigs without a guaranteed minimum payday of $100. I did think long and hard about this one. Ultimately the deciding factor was how we all inevitably bitch about how those bar owner bastards try to screw us at every opportunity--and yet we inevitably let them. So I am doing my part to make a stand about how much our efforts should be worth. As I often say, I surely do love music, and if you want to hear the music I love you're welcome to hang out in my basement until I wander down--whenever I feel like it, wearing whatever I happen to be wearing, having shaved and showered or not--and play whatever I like for however long as I like. That's free of charge. For me to shower, shave, dress up a little, pile my gear in a car, drive to wherever, move all my shit from the car to the venue, play three 1-hour sets, pile the gear back into the car, drive home, and finally move the gear from the car back to the house...that's $100. Which is still an absolute sin, but whatever.

So I just updated my datebook with all the engagements that are on the schedule so far (and once again, thanks for those). But from here on in, I'm not going to be able to accept any invitations to play that don't meet the previous two criteria.

Thanks!
Jeff"

I wonder how that'll go over. But ultimately it was just time to put a stop to the ripoff. Jeff's Rule: whatever you're willing to take is probably what you're gonna get.

JAM


I'm proud of you!
My base for in town is 125. You did the right thing.

[GtrWiz]

I'm like Ken, and treat every gig differently. Some people I just love playing with and don't worry about the money. Others, not so much...

[loudboy]

If we've ever had to use a fill-in, we would always pay them more.

After all, it's THEM who are bailing us out, and they don't have the emotional connection that a band has.

[musicofanatic5]

Wow, Jeff, you sound like me! I said I wouldn't work for under $100 ten years ago; what a sad state that I still get asked to work for less.
That's not to say that I won't. Last night I had a gig I had agreed to do for a guarantee of $50. I took it based on knowing I like the fellas I would play with and, casual gig that it is, figured it would be a good time. It was indeed a swell night, and the generous patronage fed our tip jar (love the tip jar!) to where I took home nearly twice the guarantee. If I issued an edict such as yours, this fella never would have called. There's another place an hour from me that I will nearly always accept a Mon night gig at for (don't tell anyone!!) $35, and all the Guiness I can swill. It's a great place and good musicians; nothing else to do on a Mon...
I'm not saying any of this to influence your decision or as an arguement against your decision (I applaud your stance!), just saying how it wouldn't work for me. Cheers to you.

[Trandy]

For guitar gigs I charge $100.00 for three hours and $125.00 for four hours.

For bass gigs I charge $125.00 for three hours and $150.00 for fours hours.

Why more for the bass gigs? Because there's only three bass players in the area I live in that know what they're doing....and I'm one of them.

BTW...I get all the work I want or need.

IMHO....YMMV

[Ken Ho]

Most people operate their working lives like this, in that they like to have a solid notification of what roster they are working, and negotiate an hourly rate that will result in pretty much your $100.
I might just note that e-mailed statementts like this can come across as agressive and unfriendly, as noted by the number of arguments that erupt on forums between people who might otherwise get along fine.

[Jeff Michael]

You know dudes, I'm just sitting here wondering what my time and effort is actually worth to me, is all. And $100 for four hours' (and you know that with transportation and setup/teardown it's more like 6-8 hours) worth of highly specialized work for which I've scrupulously trained and provided top-flight reliable equipment, and always try as hard as I can to smile, dance, QB the rhythm section as needed, and just generally try to say yes to any request a bandleader makes of me that doesn't involve body fluids and make the band as good as it can be...well actually I think $100 is gross underpayment, but I'm not oblivious to how it works, so I set the line there.

I don't run a bar or a band, so I always try not to second-guess decisions made by the guys in either of those roles. But I hear bandleaders say the bar managers are dicks, and the bar managers blame the economy, etc., and I know that poop always slides downhill. I'm just sick of being gamed from the top, and the only way I know to change it, or even let those bastards know there's anybody down there even noticing, is to dig in and say 'enough'. I mean, tell me you've ever shown up second at a double booking and had the bar manager do anything other than shrug his shoulders at you like he was doing you a huge favor to let you play there in the first place.

I know it'll shut me out of a lot of "almost $100" gigs. But you know, I’m reminded of the old joke where a guy asks a beautiful woman in a bar if she'd sleep with him for a million dollars. “Sure,” she replies. “How about fifty bucks?” The woman angrily replies, “What kind of girl do you think I am?” The guy replies, “We’ve already determined what you are, now we’re just negotiating the price.”

The idea of taking < $100 offers on a case by case basis were sorely tempting, as I know that being 100% absolutist about it seems dickish. But then somebody's gonna come along with $75 a man for a one-shot in a really promising new room, etc. etc...and if I choose to turn it down ad hoc, then I'm more of a dick rather than less. So the line's hardness helps more than it hurts, I think.

JAM

[Jeff Michael]

p.s. had to tweak my sig file a little...

JAM

[soldersucker]

I'm with you 100%.I left a band that i helped build for 6 years on NY eve because of similar issues.The bandleader and bass player are 50ish GM retirees and they were shitting thier pants over the economy/pension issues.
They decided subbing me when i wasn't availabe with the cheapest help they could find(inexperienced players)was the solution.What they didn't realise was the drummer/lead singer was tired of thier "Walmart" approach and left the band with me.:)
We are shopping for a bass player and will compete with them in the near future with a trio.
Good for you don't settle!

[Jon C]

You know dudes, I'm just sitting here wondering what my time and effort is actually worth to me, is all. [...]
The idea of taking < $100 offers on a case by case basis were sorely tempting, as I know that being 100% absolutist about it seems dickish. But then somebody's gonna come along with $75 a man for a one-shot in a really promising new room, etc. etc...and if I choose to turn it down ad hoc, then I'm more of a dick rather than less. So the line's hardness helps more than it hurts, I think.

JAM

that's all fine, I don't think anyone's questioning your own personal decision, just pointing out alternative approaches & other experiences. The last sentence, in particular, is a totally subjective personal view that is valid because of that, but may or may not apply to anyone else.

For example, I get a lot of calls for $75 gigs. Before I say yes, I always ask: where is it? How long? WHo else am I playing with? THe answers to those questions can easily tell me whether I'll get $25 worth of fun out of it, so would do it for less than $100, or whether I wouldn't do it for $200, LOL.

There's nothing "wrong" about your approach, I think we each have to do what works for us. I tend to be a bit more flexible and don't beat up on myself if I decide to tinker with the formula now & then.

good luck,
Jon

[Gas-man]

Good use of the word "criterion".

[The Scrutinizer]

Jeff, first off all, your email was definitely on point, and was probably cathartic !

I won't work for $100 anymore unless it's music I really truly want to play

Judging by the tone of your email, you must have a day gig in order to "leverage" them like that. That's how I roll, anyway

The problem in the business is the musicians themselves in that there are hacks who work for less and undercut or the non-hacks are too weak to organize into a coalition & stand up for themselves and ask for more. The problem with Unions is that it is too Top-down and canned when it really gets down to it. The other problem is that most people can't tell the difference between an accomplished musician and a hack

[Marc Roy]

Just sent this email out to all the cats I work for:

"Howdy, bandleader! You're getting this email because you've hired me for bass work in the past, and I really appreciate that.

But from this date forward, I have two requirements that I am absolutely sticking to.

1.) Any offers of work must come to me via email. No more "check the MySpace/band website"; I have had a few too many last-minute schedule near-catastrophes due to nebulous communication. With emails I have a reliably datestamped paper trail of what came in when, so that in the event of a schedule conflict I know who was in the book first...which will of course continue to be my number one criterion for what I'm doing on a given night.

2.) I won't take any future gigs without a guaranteed minimum payday of $100. I did think long and hard about this one. Ultimately the deciding factor was how we all inevitably bitch about how those bar owner bastards try to screw us at every opportunity--and yet we inevitably let them. So I am doing my part to make a stand about how much our efforts should be worth. As I often say, I surely do love music, and if you want to hear the music I love you're welcome to hang out in my basement until I wander down--whenever I feel like it, wearing whatever I happen to be wearing, having shaved and showered or not--and play whatever I like for however long as I like. That's free of charge. For me to shower, shave, dress up a little, pile my gear in a car, drive to wherever, move all my shit from the car to the venue, play three 1-hour sets, pile the gear back into the car, drive home, and finally move the gear from the car back to the house...that's $100. Which is still an absolute sin, but whatever.

So I just updated my datebook with all the engagements that are on the schedule so far (and once again, thanks for those). But from here on in, I'm not going to be able to accept any invitations to play that don't meet the previous two criteria.

Thanks!
Jeff"

I wonder how that'll go over. But ultimately it was just time to put a stop to the ripoff. Jeff's Rule: whatever you're willing to take is probably what you're gonna get.

JAM

I say well done. You can only put up with so much crap for so long. I've been there too. If you do lose some gigs because of this, just remember there are plenty of musicians everywhere.

[TNJ]

In a perfect world...I'd totally agree with you.

If you think about it though...you (and me and most everybody else here) has already given in to "The Man" (scumbag club owners) by not raising the $100/man/gig abomination that goes as an excuse for adequate compensation. How the cost of living doesnt apply to these wages is beyond me...well, knowing the club owners as I do, I guess it's not beyond me. It's beyond THEM to treat us as employees. Also...sadly, the law of supply and demand works here, to our detriment.

In spite of the lack of respect I feel towards most of the club owners/booking agents I've had experience with, I still have to play.
If I didnt have a day job, I'd be living in a cardboard box.
The fact that this is a 2nd job (and a very fun job, once all the BS is dispensed with), has helped me learn to swallow that bitter pill, and learn some mental gymnastics (flexibility) in order to keep gigging.

So...like a few above have said, I try to take everything into consideration before asking 'how much?'.
I've also been lucky here and there to hook up with players who take a professional attitude, cultivate a decent relationship with a few local clubs, and keep the ball rolling without much input from me. Now THAT'S worth some scratch! :)

Good luck sticking to your guns.

S.
j

[Jon C]

absolutely right, TNJ ... in 1974 when I booked bands in college we'd pay $350-400.

Today, for a typical gig, most bands around here (DC/NoVA/MD) get ... $350-400 a night. $100 per person is a GOOD gig here... do the math, with inflation that's a huge pay cut over the past 35 yrs.

[KRosser]

Bass players are held to a lower set of standards :) Harder to find a good one that is not a frustrated guitarist when playing.

Good bass players that don't play like frustrated guitarists are not hard for me to find, but I'll tell you one thing - if a bass player that I hired regularly included me in a bulk e-mail like the OP detailed, I'd never hire him again.

First of all, I almost always use the phone when hiring people. The only way I'd use e-mail is if I didn't have their number handy. I will use e-mail for follow-ups but I prefer more personal contact at first.

Second, if someone won't play a $75 dollar gig with me as a matter of policy, I won't call them for the $600 one.

[Lucidology]

It's not about Quality of pay right now for myself as a fulltime musician..
but about Quantity of gigs that add at up the end of a month ...

Sometimes the best gigs have paid the least ...

I didn't get paid personally when I played Carnegie Hall,
was just a member of a commune of folk who surrounded Pete Seeger ...

And Toshi, Pete's wife, feed us the most wonderful stew after the gig ..
Which was so welcome after the long ride back to Upstate, Beacon NY

[GtrWiz]

Good bass players that don't play like frustrated guitarists are not hard for me to find...


yeah, but to be fair, you're in LA. I've never had such an easy time finding great players, that have really good to great attitudes, as the five years I spent there...

[KRosser]

It's not about Quality of pay right now for myself as a fulltime musician..
but about Quantity of gigs that add at up the end of a month ...


There are a number of people I work for that wind up paying me anywhere between $5K to $12K by the end of the year - good people, that I'm friendly with, enjoy working with, they know my family and I know theirs, and they give me plenty of room to 'do my thing', whatever that is. Add enough of those up and you start to make a little bit of a living...

These are often made up of a $50 gig here, a freebie there, a $500 one every so often. Which is why when these people call me I don't ask about the money, because I trust them and it always adds up just fine at the end of the year. They honor my flexibility and I honor their loyalty.

This is why I said in my first response, the OP's approach to financial security would never work for me.

[KRosser]

yeah, but to be fair, you're in LA. I've never had such an easy time finding great players, that have really good to great attitudes, as the five years I spent there...

And that's why I've been here since '86 and will be for the forseeable future...

[Jon C]

true, Ken... I have never, ever, gotten a gig via email. Good point.

[devinb]

If one of those letters ended up in my inbox, I'd probably block your email address.

I'd be really surprised if your stand leads to any of the bands making more money, so ultimately you're putting yourself in a position where everyone else has to give you a larger cut, or the band leader pays you the extra out of their cut...either way, I don't see it leading to much work for you.

In my opinion, everything needs to be viewed in the context of the situation.

I've been privileged enough to work with some amazing players...a year ago I was looking for a couple players for an EP. My list for bass was pretty lofty, I talked with Mike Watt among others about it...in the end, the guy who I thought would be the best fit for the music said yes (who probably is pretty unknown even around here)...but he's played with the likes of Bill Frisell as well as done session work on at least two top ten albums in the last 4 years...

First, he certainly didn't charge me what he did an artist with a lot of history and a track record of huge sales...I'm nobody...and second, at one point I asked him as an afterthought if I had underpaid him over something, and he responded by saying he'd get me next time...and you know what, he did...I've given him a fair amount of work since...

[rockstarzusa]

Food for thought. This is purely an exercise in breaking down costs, commentry on the benefits or negatives is left out deliberately.

A typical 3 x 1 hr set gig is really about 4 hours with breaks. Add in a conservative 1 hour from beginning to load up your gear, load in vehicle, setup at venue, tear down at venue, load up your car, unload at home. (won't include drive to gig, as 99% of the population drive to work) Time = 5 hours.

Factor in wear and tear on the vehicle (general maintenance) lets say 25 miles round trip in town. Tax estimates (inc. gas) are 55 cents per miles = $12.60

Factor in strings, drumsticks etc for your chosen instrument (lets say a conservative 4 gigs per strings/drumsticks = $2.00 approx?

Factor in MOST gigging ppl I know buy food during the gig (drinks are usually comped) so lets say $5.00.

Factor in general maintenance on your gear. like tubes, spare strings for breakages, cables, duct tape. Sporadic tech maintenance, drive to the local store for replacements gear, repairs, etc. Lets say that equates to $300 yearly (conservative) or $6.00 a week.

Forgetting about sundry, parking, drinks, backup costs during the gig for gear with possible failure, associated costs, not to mention taxes due for the IRS etc, you still have $25.60 worth of deductions.

$100 - $25.60 of deductions wage for the night is $74.40, divided over 5 hours = $14.86 p/hour

[Dave Orban]

Didja hear back from Jimmy yet...?

[Bryan T]

$100 - $25.60 of deductions wage for the night is $74.40, divided over 5 hours = $14.86 p/hour

And don't forget to include some valuation of practice/rehearsal time. Dry-cleaning, sheet music for new tunes, . . .

[Scott K]

That's a good move!

I played in a classic rock cover band for a few months after I graduated college. We were paid ~ $100/person/gig. I quit because it wasn't worth it to me. Sure, I love playing, but not when it's music I'm not passionate about. My career pays the bills, but I would rather play MY music without any pay than do it for someone else for $100/night. What a waste of time...

EDIT: One of the biggest reasons for quitting was the setup/break down time... When I looked at the hourly wage on that, it was pitiful. I work hard enough during the week as an accountant. My weekends are for FUN, not work!

['70 RS]

And don't forget to include some valuation of practice/rehearsal time. Dry-cleaning, sheet music for new tunes, . . .


It's all a fun exercise, but in the end it means nothing.

Like every other profession/trade/career we can bitch and moan all day and night long about what we feel we should be getting paid, but it doesn't change how much is in our bank account, unless we can offer something that the next person can't, and there is a market willing to pay for it.

Getting back to the original post, if I sent out a mass email to all of my clients with that tone, I promise you I would be looking at a career change pretty damn fast.

[Bryan T]

It's all a fun exercise, but in the end it means nothing.

Like every other profession/trade/career we can bitch and moan all day and night long about what we feel we should be getting paid, but it doesn't change how much is in our bank account, unless we can offer something that the next person can't, and there is a market willing to pay for it.

On the contrary, this exercise is very important. I'm not complaining/bitching, I'm being realistic. I play weddings and keeping track of all my costs helped me arrive at a sensible rate. I realize that a lot of folks are playing sports bars for a free pitcher of beer, but if you are genuinely serious about making money while playing music (especially in situations where you wouldn't play for free - there are situations where I will play for free), then you need to figure in all of the costs associated with what you are doing.

If the choice is between making $50 for an hour of teaching or clearing $50 for 8 hours dedicated to a wedding (rehearsing, playing, and all the incidental stuff), then the musician needs to make the correct choice for them.

Bryan

['70 RS]

On the contrary, this exercise is very important. I'm not complaining/bitching, I'm being realistic. I play weddings and keeping track of all my costs helped me arrive at a sensible rate. I realize that a lot of folks are playing sports bars for a free pitcher of beer, but if you are genuinely serious about making money while playing music (especially in situations where you wouldn't play for free - there are situations where I will play for free), then you need to figure in all of the costs associated with what you are doing.

If the choice is between making $50 for an hour of teaching or clearing $50 for 8 hours dedicated to a wedding (rehearsing, playing, and all the incidental stuff), then the musician needs to make the correct choice for them.

Bryan

As a business, of course you need to figure out what your expenses are.....perhaps your's was the wrong post to reply to. I was just making the point that a whole lot of complaining goes on around here about what we think we should be paid, without taking into consideration that someone has to be willing & able to pay it. The OP sent out an ultimatum to prospective clients....not a smart business move....and several people chimed in with "Yeah, you tell 'em!!"....reality of the situation be damned.

Your points are taken.

[frankthomson]

damn Jeff, i'm near Philly and was gonna ask you if u wanna jam, but now.....


:p :D :p

[Adwex]

Right or wrong, doesn't matter unfortunately. If I received that bulk email, I would immediately delete the sender from my address book.

[Bryan T]

I was just making the point that a whole lot of complaining goes on around here about what we think we should be paid, without taking into consideration that someone has to be willing & able to pay it.

That is a great point. And folks also need to be aware if there are droves of other folks lined up to do the same work for less or for free. Bars/clubs can be brutal for a band/musician trying to make some money, as there are plenty of musicians lined up to play for 'exposure.'

Bryan

[reddgeetarzan]

Just sent this email out to all the cats I work for:

"Howdy, bandleader! You're getting this email because you've hired me for bass work in the past, and I really appreciate that.

But from this date forward, I have two requirements that I am absolutely sticking to.

1.) Any offers of work must come to me via email. No more "check the MySpace/band website"; I have had a few too many last-minute schedule near-catastrophes due to nebulous communication. With emails I have a reliably datestamped paper trail of what came in when, so that in the event of a schedule conflict I know who was in the book first...which will of course continue to be my number one criterion for what I'm doing on a given night.

2.) I won't take any future gigs without a guaranteed minimum payday of $100. I did think long and hard about this one. Ultimately the deciding factor was how we all inevitably bitch about how those bar owner bastards try to screw us at every opportunity--and yet we inevitably let them. So I am doing my part to make a stand about how much our efforts should be worth. As I often say, I surely do love music, and if you want to hear the music I love you're welcome to hang out in my basement until I wander down--whenever I feel like it, wearing whatever I happen to be wearing, having shaved and showered or not--and play whatever I like for however long as I like. That's free of charge. For me to shower, shave, dress up a little, pile my gear in a car, drive to wherever, move all my shit from the car to the venue, play three 1-hour sets, pile the gear back into the car, drive home, and finally move the gear from the car back to the house...that's $100. Which is still an absolute sin, but whatever.

So I just updated my datebook with all the engagements that are on the schedule so far (and once again, thanks for those). But from here on in, I'm not going to be able to accept any invitations to play that don't meet the previous two criteria.

Thanks!
Jeff"

I wonder how that'll go over. But ultimately it was just time to put a stop to the ripoff. Jeff's Rule: whatever you're willing to take is probably what you're gonna get.

JAM

This is much too long to become a "sig", but I LOVE it!!! :AOK:AOK You get 2 THUMBS UP.....

I wish I could take that attitude, but I have a day job that pays my bills, so I'm happy to just be able to play with the musicians I'm lucky enough to have surrounding me at gigs. Thats been money in the bank for me for a few years now.

[Gas-man]

I realize that a lot of folks are playing sports bars for a free pitcher of beer, but if you are genuinely serious about making money while playing music (especially in situations where you wouldn't play for free - there are situations where I will play for free), then you need to figure in all of the costs associated with what you are doing.


I don't know of anyone who is playing at a sports bar for only beer. Are there really a lot of people doing this?

I do know of a lot of original bands that don't even get beer (say nothing of money).

[SyKrash]

I reserve the right to treat each gig differently...

Anyway - the people that hire me regularly are used to getting a little more 'hands-on and personal' touch than such a bulk declaration would allow.

So - that would never work for me.

For you? Who knows?

amen.

[loudboy]

I don't know of anyone who is playing at a sports bar for only beer. Are there really a lot of people doing this?

I do know of a lot of original bands that don't even get beer (say nothing of money).

I've been playing around this area for WAY too long, and I've never heard of anyone in the cover scene playing for free, other than a benefit. Hell, we used to get paid for them too, in a few bands I've been in.

It's almost ALWAYS a guarantee, and at the low end it comes out to $60-75/man, for just about any gig.

The original scene is a whle other thing - pay to play, or a 4-way split of the door is the norm. This makes sense to me, as the bands work harder to bring folks in, and everybody makes money.

[Dave Orban]

Right or wrong, doesn't matter unfortunately. If I received that bulk email, I would immediately delete the sender from my address book.He probably wouldn't be in your address book to begin with, so no worries. ;)

[Dana Olsen]

I reserve the right to treat each gig differently...

Anyway - the people that hire me regularly are used to getting a little more 'hands-on and personal' touch than such a bulk declaration would allow.

So - that would never work for me.

For you? Who knows?I'm with Ken, though I don't disparage anyone setting up their own working parameters.

Sometimes there are cats I'd REALLY like to play with who don't have a ton of money to pay out; I do those for pretty cheap sometimes. Sometimes other opportunities exist, like I'm being hired by the opener, but I know the headliner is going to audition other players soon, so perhaps I can turn this cheaper paying gig into an opportunity for myself.

I appreciate the gist of what you're saying though: I'm a PRO for cryin out loud, I'm not available for cheap anymore! Usually if there's a gig I DON'T want, I charge enough to either make it worth my while, or enough to scare 'em away (GRIN).

Good luck, Dana O.

[guitarstan]

When I was young, hungry, full of dreams and aspirations I'd play just about anywhere anytime, money was not a big issue. At some point I was in the best local band in town, we were making good steady income. This took place back in the late 1960's early 70's. Gas was 50 cents a gallon, a loaf of bread was a dime and we got paid better than todays rates.....wuts up with that!?

Now I'm retired, fat and happy. I won't play for free ever. $200 per man per nite is barely enough to get me out of the house. My ears ring all the time and I don't enjoy the gigging process anymore. For me it's all about money, experimenting with gear and babe watching :rolleyes: don't tell my wife.

[StompBoxBlues]

Hey, I'm WITH you, and hope that succeeds for you. I don't see any problem with it and a hundred bucks IS criminally low (you forgot, or I didn't see also included ALL the practice time, even if fun, there are a limited amount of people on this earth that love and do it enough)...

I always think of some meeting or other I was in where management wanted (basically to keep screwing us) to basically have us work for free for something on our own time, including travel somewhere (but not be able to visit or see anything)...

At some point someone called them on this, and the manager said "well...if we had to pay you for your time we wouldn't have enough MONEY!"
and the reply came quickly "then you don't have enough money to do it!"

If bar owners can't pay a fair wage, then they don't have enough to pay for a good band. They probably can get folks to play for less, but you often get what you pay for too.

[Metalex]

:agree Well said. Back when I did music for a living, there's no way I could get away with being so rude, but I hated being taken advantage of, so I admire your balls. Luckily, now I have a sugar daddy, so money isn't an issue. Thank God.:BOUNCE

[Steve73]

I like everything in your email except the price thing. If people know you will work for $100, that's what they will pay you. I just ask with every gig call and if it isn't what my minimum is, I am 'booked already' that night.... :roll

I don't think people need to know your minimum, though you am open to negotiations... :dude