Considering Major Studio Changes!

[LSchefman]

I have a rack of synths and samplers, and I have a fairly large format analog recording console (32 x 32 x 16 x 2) that sounds good. I've made a lot of music with this stuff for TV ads, records, you name it. And I'm thinking of scrapping most of it!

I've gotten to the point where I like Mach Five's sound as much as my hardware samplers, and I actually prefer the newer software synths to most of my hardware synths (Waldorf Microwave and Nord excepted).

I have always mixed my digital tracks on the analog board, but lately, I've been increasingly happy with submixing groups of tracks in the computer, effecting them there, and using outboard gear with the console only in those cases where it sounds noticeably better (and there are, of course, such cases).

I could get away without the analog console. I don't think I'd miss most of the hardware synths and samplers at all. I might miss the console. OK, I probably would miss it. So I'll hang onto that, since it has no real resale value anyway, compared to what I paid for it.

But I'm totally intrigued with the idea of having as little hardware as I can get away with. I've done a few projects where I've not used hardware, except for mic preamps and a few outboard effects and dynamics processors. I wasn't at all unhappy with the outcomes.

I don't know if I'm getting crazy, lazy, or what, but I am itching to get rid of a bunch of hardware, and invest in a faster computer and more software.

I just may do it.

On another subject, I have found that the Mackie HR624s give me a more accurate picture of a mix than my far more expensive Genelec 1031As were able to. All of my mixes have turned out better. Of course, the Genelecs sounded lusher, and went louder and deeper, but as a nearfield mixing speaker, I love the little Mackies!

[GaryNattrass]

This is the same thing I went through and I think I can conclude in this way which is what we have also gone through in the TV and film world.

Analogue does sound better than digital but its an operational trade off.

I just find the ability to recall and have the desk set-up the way I want a lot more convenient and I am prepared to trade off the analogue warmth for this.

[jzucker]

Speaking of the Mackie's I'm using the 624s also (thanks for the recommendation). Do you have the subwoofer too?

[wichita]

I have the Mackie's too and they are the best bang for the buck I ever spent!

Les,
I don't have a console at all and have been thrilled with the results. Just some nice mic pres straight into Pro Tools have served me very well.

Ask Matt Henderson about software synths. He and Torn went that way and I know that Matt is thrilled.

[T.Wesley]

That's kind of funny...weird funny. I'm trying to figure out a way to get some kind of control surface to get faders INTO the process and here Les is talking about DITCHING his faders :)

Change is good, especially when it sounds as good as or better than how you've always done it in the past.

--chiba

[Unburst]

Les-since you're such a fan of softsynths you might find this interesting.
Muse Research Receptor is a standalone hardware VST plugin host that runs VSTi and plugins.

It can run 16 channels of audio and up 57 plugins.

Unfortunately for you and me, being mac users, it runs Windows format plugs and needs a special version if the plugs have copy protection but it's an interesting option to havng another computer around.

http://www.museresearch.com/receptor_overview.php

[heinz]

Although I love soft synths, I also love having hardware.

One aspect of software that bugs me is the temporary nature, new versions & upgrades... system stability & hard drives... controller routings & mappings.... licensing... all complicate the concept of sudden inspiration. Or of working on a piece for several years. Not that it's rocket science or anything, just a factor.

[Impulse 101]

One of my closest friends (an quite frankly the best guitarist I've ever personally known) writes exclusively for Video Helper. He uses Digital Performer, Mach 5, Alberton Live and literally hundreds of plug ins exclusively. He has a little Mackie for monitoring and has a bunch of Manley stuff for his front end. ELOP, massive passive and a some other stuff and all of his converters and interfaces are MOTU. That part sounds similar to your rig Les.

He runs two G5's one is exclusive for soft synths and samplers. The other runs DP. It's a fairly bullet proof system and I can't believe the flexibility that he gets out of it. Not to mention his personal tallent and flexibilty. When he decided that he needed to learn loop based production he did so, and then took it to whole new levels. It's amazing to watch.

My personal rig uses Sonar 3 producer. I'm using the RME HDSP 9652 card with three ADAT light pipes in and out. Soon I'm going to be using a Yamaha 01V to do my mixing externally, which will allow me to run each digital audio stream at a higher bit rate which bypasses the internal mix buss headroom limitations. For now I'm using my ADATs as a converter bank and my Mackie 2408 to accomplish the same thing.

I think that this the best solution to digital audio issues when using soft synths, soft samplers and a Digital Audio Workstation because I use a similar system (Bigger system with DP, and an 02R96) at a studio where I freelance occasionally and it works great.

JT

[LSchefman]

>>Speaking of the Mackie's I'm using the 624s also (thanks for the recommendation). Do you have the subwoofer too?<<

Not yet, what I want to do is go surround, and do a whole 5.1. But I do want to add the sub.

>>Les,
I don't have a console at all and have been thrilled with the results. Just some nice mic pres straight into Pro Tools have served me very well.<<

Yeah, that can work well for most things, but here's my question: let's say you have a production where you're tracking a live band, and you need to monitor and buss a dozen or so mics? Doesn't the lack of a board then become quite complicated?

Also, I haven't had to deal with latency issues while recording and monitoring, since I monitor analog off the board. How does one get around this problem?

Lots of good ideas in your answers, guys!

[LSchefman]

>>That's kind of funny...weird funny. I'm trying to figure out a way to get some kind of control surface to get faders INTO the process and here Les is talking about DITCHING his faders <<

Actually, I think one needs faders, even if all they're doing is controlling the software.

[LSchefman]

>>Les-since you're such a fan of softsynths you might find this interesting.
Muse Research Receptor is a standalone hardware VST plugin host that runs VSTi and plugins.<<

That's a cool idea for someone who uses tons of processing.

Honestly, though, I did 48 channel productions with my analog board and only a few hardware effects processors in the days before plug-ins with my old DA-88/DM-80 system. In those days all I ran was a PCM-70, an H3000, a cheap LXP-1, and a TC 5000 for effects. You know what, the productions sounded really nice. Of course, I used EQ on the board, and the aux sends and returns for the various channels.

I don't think I need quite that many plugs going all at once. I'm already running a bunch of soft synths on a converted G4 with only 500 mhz, and plugs, and having very few problems.

[Impulse 101]

Originally posted by LSchefman
>>Yeah, that can work well for most things, but here's my question: let's say you have a production where you're tracking a live band, and you need to monitor and buss a dozen or so mics? Doesn't the lack of a board then become quite complicated?

Also, I haven't had to deal with latency issues while recording and monitoring, since I monitor analog off the board. How does one get around this problem?


The digital mixer system that I described handles all of those issues. You have all of the mic inputs on it, it can do multiple monitor mixes with no latency and you have seperate monitor and studio outs as well. Add in the fact that the Yamaha boards have some pretty nice internal effects, compressors, EQ and can be automated easily from your DAW via realtime and snapshot control and you can save a lot of processor power and use it to run your softsynths/samplers.

JT

[aleclee]

Would ditching that hardware make your studio appear less credible to clients dropping by the studio? I suppose if that were a factor, you could always invest in some Funk Logic gear. ;)

[LSchefman]

>>Would ditching that hardware make your studio appear less credible to clients dropping buy the studio?<<

I suppose it might, however, if I got rid of the console, I'd pick up a fader pack of some sort that would look fairly professional.

I'm guessing, here. I'll probably just keep investigating the whole idea until something seems obvious.

[Bassomatic]

I hear you, Les. I'm looking at offloading some more analog gear, as I'm tending to do it all in the box these days.

Although nothing beats analog summing and hitting a 2" Studer (with SR), I hear the gap narrowing every year. What a time to be a studio geek!

[matte]

Totally soft synth(NI Komplete, REFX Vanguard, Beast, Juno, Phatmatik Pro, Trilogy) and sampler based here(have been for the past year and a half). No control surfaces either. I'm a strictly mouse mixing monkey and I'm cool with it. I tend to mix while I'm tracking anyhow and I avoid EQ unless absolutely necessary until mastering. My rig is tiny.

[Bassomatic]

Matte - hw much for Beast? My VST analog basses are working my nerves!

[matte]

Originally posted by Bassomatic
Matte - hw much for Beast? My VST analog basses are working my nerves!
https://secure.element5.com/shareit/cart.html?PRODUCT%5B199798%5D=1&DELIVERY%5B199798%5D=EML&stylefrom=143513&cookies=1Dude, spend the extra loot and get Vanguard. It's extraordinary.

[drezdin]

anybody here use absynth?
one of my favorites.

[LSchefman]

>>Although nothing beats analog summing and hitting a 2" Studer (with SR), I hear the gap narrowing every year. What a time to be a studio geek!<<

True, that.

I do like the analog summing and I still miss the big tape machine.

I was offered an Otari MTR90 with SR for $6,000, a machine I know to be extremely well-maintained. But I couldn't say yes. The guy still has it, and every time I see it, I drool.

With the 24 channels of SR I think he paid close to 90 grand for it. Six grand!

[Bassomatic]

Originally posted by LSchefman
>>Although nothing beats analog summing and hitting a 2" Studer (with SR), I hear the gap narrowing every year. What a time to be a studio geek!<<

True, that.

I do like the analog summing and I still miss the big tape machine.

I was offered an Otari MTR90 with SR for $6,000, a machine I know to be extremely well-maintained. But I couldn't say yes. The guy still has it, and every time I see it, I drool.

With the 24 channels of SR I think he paid close to 90 grand for it. Six grand!

That's sooo tempting....

But maintenance sucks, although I miss it at times (in a perverse way). The smell, the sound of a kickass motor getting up to speed and then braking. (I'm sure i'll get over it pretty quickly next time a spend a few days in a real room).

[MichaelK]

My only question: why get rid of the hardware? It may come in handy.

[Orren]

Originally posted by LSchefman
Yeah, that can work well for most things, but here's my question: let's say you have a production where you're tracking a live band, and you need to monitor and buss a dozen or so mics? Doesn't the lack of a board then become quite complicated?

Also, I haven't had to deal with latency issues while recording and monitoring, since I monitor analog off the board. How does one get around this problem?


That depends on your monitoring needs are. Most soundcards capable of 12+ I/O channels (MOTU PCI-424, RME, Metric Halo) include digital mixers that allow direct monitoring--meaning, input jack to output jack, no latency at all.

I can't speak for the MOTU driver, but the Metric Halo Mobile I/O and RME units both include complete digital mixing, so you can route one input to multiple output AND software DAW destinations, so you can have zero latency monitoring along with recording.

This way, you will not be monitoring from inside your host application, but then again, if you use your analog board, you also aren't monitoring from inside your host software, so nothing changes.

Orren

[LSchefman]

Thanks, Orren. Never tried it, maybe I should.

>>My only question: why get rid of the hardware? It may come in handy.<<

I dunno. Maybe because I'm tired of looking at it. Then again, maybe I will hang onto it.

I won't get dick for it, so why bother selling it?

[MichaelK]

Originally posted by LSchefman
I won't get dick for it, so why bother selling it?
That's sort of what I said before I edited it out. :)

[wsaraceni]

just go all out already.
http://akmedia.digidesign.com/news/images/nws_919_2268.jpg

[LSchefman]

That's exactly the kind of thing I want, but it only works with pro tools!

[wsaraceni]

is there something wrong with protools?

[Scott Peterson]

I applaud Les's move here, though I have remained silent. A soft synth know-it-all I am not. :D

Non-latency monitoring is a no-brainer with 99.9% of soundcards as noted above. I had a MOTU 828mkII for a while and while it didn't work with my setup, it did support non-latency monitoring.

[MichaelK]

Originally posted by wsaraceni
is there something wrong with protools?
Les is a DP man.

[LSchefman]

>>is there something wrong with protools?<<

What Michael said.

DP is my software of choice for scoring to picture, which is my primary occupation. PT is great for what it does well, but it's less of a scoring tool, and more of a production tool.

They're all good. I do like that Icon console, in fact, the Icon on the cover of PAR this month made me realize how far the digital stuff has come, and probably triggered this thread!

[wsaraceni]

ah. i guess that makes sense. what about that mackie dxb or whatever its called. would that be closer to what you are looking for?

[Impulse 101]

I get to use an ICON next month. I'll report back on what I think of it.

JT

[LSchefman]

>>what about that mackie dxb or whatever its called. would that be closer to what you are looking for?<<

If it does both audio and software control, it would be worth a look. Same with the Yamaha 2000 something or other.

At this point, I guess it doesn't matter anyway. Whatever works.

[wsaraceni]

Originally posted by Impulse 101
I get to use an ICON next month. I'll report back on what I think of it.

JT


please do. that way if i ever hit the lotto. i know what toy to get

[Bassomatic]

Sooo many control surfaces/dgi mixers/hybrids. When/if i ever throw down, it'll take quite some research.

I've gotten pretty used to drawing in my automation, though i miss the vibe/romance of the two handed mix.

[Macaroni]

Les...

I didn't have quite as extensive a setup as you, but a few years ago I made the full jump to Logic and have never looked back. It was the best move I made - no question about it.

You can get fantastic I/O interfaces to handle all the I/O you want up to 192KHz - RME is my choice - super high quality, reasonable price and the best features. With Apple's OSX Core Audio and RME, latency is a non issue and you can monitor in real time easily.

I've got a Logic/Mackie Control surface and it's indispensible - you really have to have some faders - and switching between fader banks is instantaneous. It can be expanded if you want more physical faders, but I find it's perfect on its own - 9 - 100 mm Penny & Giles Faders - smooth as buttah. Plus the control surface can be used to tweak instruments, plugins and your transport functions. It's a must have IMHO.

Today, Apple just announced LogicPro 7 and it has many great new features, including distributed processing, so you can use several Macs to spread out your audio processing for incredible audio processing capabilities. With all of Logic's Audio Instruments, synths and the EXS24-MK II sample player, you've got all your bases fully covered, including B3, Rhodes, etc, plus convolution reverb a la Space Designer. They've added new instruments too for guitar, drums, and a component modeling synth.

Check out the Apple site for all the mind blowing details...

http://www.apple.com/logic/

I also use 2 UAD-1 cards from Universal Audio and their plug in versions of the LA2A, 1176LN, Fairchild Compressor, Pultec EQ, etc are absolutely f'ing phenomenal - as all of the reviews confirm. I also have the Waves Platinum bundle and that covers my mastering needs, as well as additional plug ins of the very highest quality. The LogicPro plugins are also very high quality. I sold my tc Finalizer96K, tc M3000, Lexicon MPX1 and PCM81 and have never regretted it for a second.

The level of flexibility (automation, etc) and detail you get with a system like that is unparalleled. It's also incredibly cheaper than ProTools and every bit as good, audio-wise and feature wise. If you've got good mic pres, and good A/D/A converters, you can get incredible audio quality.

I'm also using Dynaudio BM6A monitors and they totally blew away my previous Mackie HR824s.

[LSchefman]

Sounds like you have a cool rig going. I think for now, I'm going to hang on to my analog board.

I'm just that kinda guy.

[Macaroni]

I forgot to mention that my main pre & A/D (and master clock) is an Apogee Trak2 - killer. I've also got an Aphex 207 dual tube pre, a Joe Meek TwinQcs and 2 Studio Projects VTB1 pres.

There are lots of ways to make good recordings so whatever works is all good IMHO. As long as you're having fun and being creative, that's what counts the most.

[LSchefman]

>>As long as you're having fun and being creative, that's what counts the most.<<

So true!

[GaryNattrass]

Originally posted by LSchefman
>>As long as you're having fun and being creative, that's what counts the most.<<

So true!

Creativity is the key to any great recording, it then doesnt matter what it was recorded with or on!

Some of the greatest music ever was recorded on simple 4 to 16 tracks with plate reverb and only a compressor or two.

[LSchefman]

>>Some of the greatest music ever was recorded on simple 4 to 16 tracks with plate reverb and only a compressor or two.<<

Because the music and the technology ain't the same thing. ;)

And some of the worst music ever was recorded on the best gear. But don't tell anyone I know that.

I tell them my music would be better if I had better gear. ;)