music theory question

[tedm]

if a song sounds good with scales Am and Cm, what key is it?

I usually think of the root, 4th and 5th notes of a scale as sounding good played major scales, and the 2nd, 3rd, and 6th, sounding good with minor scales.

[Scott Peterson]

Ted,

Let's keep things where they belong. Thank you.

[tedm]

This is a better place for it. Thanks.

Originally posted by Scott Peterson
Ted,

Let's keep things where they belong. Thank you.

[Mark C]

Cm is C,D,Eb,F,G,Ab,Bb Am is A,B,C,D,E,F,G. Four notes in common, three are different, however there are no common chords that fit both scales, so if you are playing both over a progression, you are getting some seriously outside sounding notes. This can only be cool if you know how to resolve those notes. Eg: A min and C major are the same notes. Sometimes over a C major chord, you can use notes from C minor as passing tones. This can be heard in use in both jazz (especially bebop) and country music.

[Joe]

Originally posted by Mark C
Cm is C,D,Eb,F,G,Ab,Bb Am is A,B,C,D,E,F,G. Four notes in common, three are different, however there are no common chords that fit both scales, so if you are playing both over a progression, you are getting some seriously outside sounding notes. This can only be cool if you know how to resolve those notes. Eg: A min and C major are the same notes. Sometimes over a C major chord, you can use notes from C minor as passing tones. This can be heard in use in both jazz (especially bebop) and country music.

Cm is the same as Eb major

R 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 R

C D Eb F G Ab Bb C

[tedm]

So assuming not jazz or country, and the Cm scale and the Am scale sound OK, it's probably the tune changing keys? I'm trying to figure out what key the redant george lowell backing is in.

Originally posted by Mark C
Cm is C,D,Eb,F,G,Ab,Bb Am is A,B,C,D,E,F,G. Four notes in common, three are different, however there are no common chords that fit both scales, so if you are playing both over a progression, you are getting some seriously outside sounding notes. This can only be cool if you know how to resolve those notes. Eg: A min and C major are the same notes. Sometimes over a C major chord, you can use notes from C minor as passing tones. This can be heard in use in both jazz (especially bebop) and country music.

[tedm]

I get this, I'm trying to find a common key for use with the Cmin and Amin scales, but I don't think there is one, unless the keys change in the tune.

Originally posted by Joe
Cm is the same as Eb major

R 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 R

C D Eb F G Ab Bb C

[Mark C]

Originally posted by tedm
So assuming not jazz or country, and the Cm scale and the Am scale sound OK, it's probably the tune changing keys? I'm trying to figure out what key the redant george lowell backing is in.

Learn the chords in the song. They'll tell you what key it's in.

[Tom Gross]

Unless it's a Blues-based thing in C (C7), then you'd get an A min thing over the C, and a C min pent sound over C7, which sounds familiar and "works".

[Joe]

What note sounds like the ROOT? From there you can determine key signature and mode.

[matte]

Originally posted by tedm
I get this, I'm trying to find a common key for use with the Cmin and Amin scales, but I don't think there is one, unless the keys change in the tune. The Half step Whole step scale(starting on A,C,Eb,F#)will cover both A minor and C Minor tonalities.

[tedm]

But the notes in the Half step/Whole step don't sound right throughout the tune:

A >Major Pentatonic >A-B-C#-E-G
A >Minor Pentatonic >A-C-D-E-G
A >Whole Tone >A-B-C#-D#-F-G
A >Symmetric Diminished -
*****
>Whole step, half step >A-B-C-D-D#-F-F#-G#
*****

There's an F/G in the tune, and some CMaj or C7, and no D#/F#/G# I don't think.

So are you saying for every chord, jump to another Whole step, half step scale?



Originally posted by Matte
The Half step Whole step scale(starting on A,C,Eb,F#)will cover both A minor and C Minor tonalities.

[tedm]

I find this true. In the redant lowell george tune, it's not sounding right to me, and it does end on a rootish sound.

Originally posted by Joe
What note sounds like the ROOT? From there you can determine key signature and mode.

[tedm]

maybe parallel mode C melodic minor, and they threw in a GMaj:

C >Symmetric Diminished -
>Whole step, half step >C-D-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-A-B


Originally posted by tedm
I get this, I'm trying to find a common key for use with the Cmin and Amin scales, but I don't think there is one, unless the keys change in the tune.

[matte]

Originally posted by tedm
But the notes in the Half step/Whole step don't sound right throughout the tune:


A Bb C C# D# E F# G

[Joe]

In classical music they call notes outside of the key signature accidentals, it was not until jazz came along that the common man learned theory. If you play a note by accident you are sloppy, if you play it on purpose there is a reason why it does or does not work. There is a theoretical reason why your scales work in your mind, and figuring out can be fun as a braintwister, but in the end, people listening to you play are not thinking about it. Music is a an art form and when you over analyze it, it becomes a science.

[lhallam]

Originally posted by tedm
But the notes in the Half step/Whole step don't sound right throughout the tune:

A >Major Pentatonic >A-B-C#-E-G
A >Minor Pentatonic >A-C-D-E-G
A >Whole Tone >A-B-C#-D#-F-G
A >Symmetric Diminished -
*****
>Whole step, half step >A-B-C-D-D#-F-F#-G#
*****

There's an F/G in the tune, and some CMaj or C7, and no D#/F#/G# I don't think.

So are you saying for every chord, jump to another Whole step, half step scale?


A major pentatonic > A-B-C#-E-F#

[tedm]

Matte,
I will give this a try, what is this scale and key called as close as you can think of??

Just by looking, the lack of an Eb note, and F note make it look dodgy ;)

BTW, have you heard/played the lowell george redant backing?

Originally posted by Matte
A Bb C C# D# E F# G

[lhallam]

Originally posted by Matte
A Bb C C# D# E F# G

Interestingly enough:

A-B-C-D-Eb-F-Gb-G#

also works if you like those b5's. ;)

[lhallam]

Originally posted by tedm
Matte,
I will give this a try, what is this scale and key called as close as you can think of??

Just by looking, the lack of an Eb note, and F note make it look dodgy ;)

BTW, have you heard/played the lowell george redant backing?

D# and Eb are enharmonic spellings

[tedm]

Gotcha, what about an F note? There's an F chord in the backing.


Originally posted by lhallam
D# and Eb are enharmonic spellings

[tedm]

There's a G chord in the backing. You have no G regular.

Originally posted by lhallam
Interestingly enough:

A-B-C-D-Eb-F-Gb-G#

also works if you like those b5's. ;)

[matte]

Originally posted by tedm
There's a G chord in the backing. You have no G regular. Sounds like you're answering your own questions. You asked about a scale that would work with A Minor and C Minor. I gave it to you. Bye bye now.

[lhallam]

Originally posted by tedm
if a song sounds good with scales Am and Cm, what key is it?

I usually think of the root, 4th and 5th notes of a scale as sounding good played major scales, and the 2nd, 3rd, and 6th, sounding good with minor scales.

Above was the question. You said nothing about chords or backings. Both diminished scales will work, if you know what you're doing.

Matte's suggestion has both the natural 5th over the Amin and over the C min. This is the better answer. I'm just having fun.

Starting on a whole step you get a b5 with no resolution for both Am and Cm which will sound "funny" to some ears.

Much like when Jack played Bbmin and Bmin pentatonics in one post, both diminished scales can work. If you know what you're doing.

Now that I think about it, forget what I said. I was thinking what scales could be played over Cm and Am chords.

[Joe]

Very simply put, there are 12 notes, seven of which are probably diatonic, and another three that will work in context if placed correctly. So this leaves us with two notes that do not work, which are normally fighting the third or the seventh of the chord. So if the chord has a b3 and you play a natural 3, or do the same with the 7th, it can get weird. Even these notes can be used sparingly at times. If it sounds ok, you discover that a G# works here where no G# is in the key signature, use it, just don't abuse it.

Theory heads want the numerical values worked out for why yes or no.

Guys with great ears just say, G# works and do not ask why.

The main issue is the end, not the means when speaking of sound and music. Braintwisters at music school are fun to test your knowledge, but many a bluesman that was unable to speak proper English has made great music w/ no knowledge. This is not a drivers ed test where you need a score to pass, if it sounds ok, then it is ok.

[matte]

Originally posted by Joe
Very simply put, there are 12 notes, seven of which are probably diatonic, and another three that will work in context if placed correctly. So this leaves us with two notes that do not work, which are normally fighting the third or the seventh of the chord. So if the chord has a b3 and you play a natural 3, or do the same with the 7th, it can get weird. Even these notes can be used sparingly at times. If it sounds ok, you discover that a G# works here where no G# is in the key signature, use it, just don't abuse it.

Theory heads want the numerical values worked out for why yes or no.

Guys with great ears just say, G# works and do not ask why.

The main issue is the end, not the means when speaking of sound and music. Braintwisters at music school are fun to test your knowledge, but many a bluesman that was unable to speak proper English has made great music w/ no knowledge. This is not a drivers ed test where you need a score to pass, if it sounds ok, then it is ok. There's also the both/and scenario.

[Bassomatic]

Originally posted by Joe

Guys with great ears just say, G# works and do not ask why.

So great and ears knowing why something works are mutually exclusive in your world?

How unfortunate.

[Joe]

Originally posted by Bassomatic
So great ears knowling why something works are mutually exclusive in your world?

How unfortunate.

Well my mom wouldn't let me eat Twinkees, what can I tell you? :rolleyes:

I fixed it for you. :p

[matte]

Originally posted by Joe
Well my mom wouldn't let me Twinkees, what can I tell you? :rolleyes: Twinkees as a verb? I'm willing to bet that you aren't getting paid by the calorie.