Stolen guitars? Counterfeits? What gives here.

[mike80]

http://rover.ebay.com/ar/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?mpt=%5BCacheBuster%5D&adtype=1&size=1x1&type=4&campid=5335828753&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2FPaul-Reed-Smith-Custom-24_W0QQitemZ260357671966QQihZ016QQcategoryZ33045QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemhttp://cgi.ebay.com/Paul-Reed-Smith-Custom-24_W0QQitemZ260357671966QQihZ016QQcategoryZ33045QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=3&campid=5335828753&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2FPaul-Reed-Smith-Custom-24_W0QQitemZ260357671966QQihZ016QQcategoryZ33045QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

http://rover.ebay.com/ar/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?mpt=%5BCacheBuster%5D&adtype=1&size=1x1&type=4&campid=5335828753&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2FPaul-Reed-Smith-Custom-24_W0QQitemZ260357673153QQihZ016QQcategoryZ33045QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemhttp://cgi.ebay.com/Paul-Reed-Smith-Custom-24_W0QQitemZ260357673153QQihZ016QQcategoryZ33045QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=3&campid=5335828753&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2FPaul-Reed-Smith-Custom-24_W0QQitemZ260357673153QQihZ016QQcategoryZ33045QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

http://rover.ebay.com/ar/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?mpt=%5BCacheBuster%5D&adtype=1&size=1x1&type=4&campid=5335828753&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2FPaul-Reed-Smith-Custom-24_W0QQitemZ260357672401QQihZ016QQcategoryZ33045QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemhttp://cgi.ebay.com/Paul-Reed-Smith-Custom-24_W0QQitemZ260357672401QQihZ016QQcategoryZ33045QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=3&campid=5335828753&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2FPaul-Reed-Smith-Custom-24_W0QQitemZ260357672401QQihZ016QQcategoryZ33045QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

http://rover.ebay.com/ar/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?mpt=%5BCacheBuster%5D&adtype=1&size=1x1&type=4&campid=5335828753&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2FPaul-Reed-Smith-Custom-24_W0QQitemZ260357671041QQihZ016QQcategoryZ33045QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemhttp://cgi.ebay.com/Paul-Reed-Smith-Custom-24_W0QQitemZ260357671041QQihZ016QQcategoryZ33045QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=3&campid=5335828753&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2FPaul-Reed-Smith-Custom-24_W0QQitemZ260357671041QQihZ016QQcategoryZ33045QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)


Smells a little fishy to me. He also has a website - www.nothingbutnewguitars.com (http://www.nothingbutnewguitars.com). But it has nothing on it at all. :confused: Looks to me like they're stolen...since they don't come with cases.

[teletran1175]

They are probably fakes from China resold in the states. The lack of detailed pictures and generic decriptions are common with fakes.
Notice his lack of feedback as a seller and this jem:
Please understand this,NO ITEM WILL BE SHIPPED UNTIL PAYMENT HAS CLEARED AND HAS BEEN DEPOSITED INTO OUR PAYPAL ACCOUNT !!!!!!!!NO EXCEPTIONS,THANK YOU!

He probably ordered the knock-offs for cheap and is running a scam on eBay for almost 100 percent profit. They will catch him and put a stop to it, but not before he does alot of damage. It could be a hijacked acount, too.
A fool and his money are soon parted.

[NHDave]

My question would be why are the guitars are all shot sitting in their
cases, if they are shipped without them.


I looked around his site and found this in his "information" section
This must be some kind of funky disclaimer.


When you go to a music store at the mall or anywhere, remember this... These stores are in a business and are there to make as much money as possible, but aren't we all? But at what cost? We'll tell you, you pay for everything, from the carpet on the floor to the signs on the doors and everything in between. There is no reason for you to pay a higher price just to be able to have the instrument you want or need. The companies, the ones who have their names on the instruments that we buy, want us to believe that a lot of these are produced in the USA, and don't get us wrong, some are, this is true, but a lot less than you may be so inclined to think. These companies do have control of what materials are used in the building of these instruments. Many of these guitars are being produced all over the world, for instance, China, Indonesia, Japan, and even Taiwan. Like everything else most companies go to where the labor costs are less to have theses instruments assembled. So remember that when you walk into a music store. Shopping online has revolutionized our shopping experience. Now all you have to do is find what you want and it will arrive at your door with no hassles at all, plus without paying three to four times as much for what you want to buy!


Thank you

[XKnight]

There's lots of fraudulent activity going on these days. As the economy gets worse, the thieves get busier.

[Kingbeegtrs]

deleted

[electronpirate]

Looks like someone took the chance on it.

[mike80]

My question would be why are the guitars are all shot sitting in their
cases, if they are shipped without them.


I looked around his site and found this in his "information" section
This must be some kind of funky disclaimer.


When you go to a music store at the mall or anywhere, remember this... These stores are in a business and are there to make as much money as possible, but aren't we all? But at what cost? We'll tell you, you pay for everything, from the carpet on the floor to the signs on the doors and everything in between. There is no reason for you to pay a higher price just to be able to have the instrument you want or need. The companies, the ones who have their names on the instruments that we buy, want us to believe that a lot of these are produced in the USA, and don't get us wrong, some are, this is true, but a lot less than you may be so inclined to think. These companies do have control of what materials are used in the building of these instruments. Many of these guitars are being produced all over the world, for instance, China, Indonesia, Japan, and even Taiwan. Like everything else most companies go to where the labor costs are less to have theses instruments assembled. So remember that when you walk into a music store. Shopping online has revolutionized our shopping experience. Now all you have to do is find what you want and it will arrive at your door with no hassles at all, plus without paying three to four times as much for what you want to buy!


Thank you


I read part of that when I looked at it last night, but I completely missed the part about labor costs and foreign countries. Seems to me like they would be knockoffs after reading that.

The pictures look like real PRSi, but I doubt that's what the winners get. Ebay sucks since they have anonymous user IDs now. I'd like to email one of those people and see what they really got.

[NHDave]

I like this...

Note: this is a new guitar never been played, comes to you
boxed


There's a RECEIPT in this picture...

http://i.ebayimg.com/10/!BME4D2!BGk~$(KGrHgoH-D!EjlLlz,uWBJimwvv-Pg~~_1.JPG

[jtm622]

Something ain't right, and that's for sure...
I mean, GC can't get 'em their stores for $800... with or without a case.
If you buy one of those things, maybe you'll get a reach-around to go with it...

[paul1122]

It hard to believe that some people fall for these scams. I like to think guitar players are smarter than the average person, but I could be wrong.

[tomkatzz]

It hard to believe that some people fall for these scams. I like to think guitar players are smarter than the average person, but I could be wrong.

This issue has come up on TGP before. If you pay via Paypal, you are protected. Paypal has a dispute category: "Significantly different than described."

We talked about this on another thread, and some posters insisted the guitar (a Les Paul Traditional) was a fake. But the seller advertised it as made-in-America-genuine, so the buyer is protected.

Unless there is a "Paul Reed Smith" other than the PRS advertised, the buyer is protected. Apparantly, for some, it's worth the risk to get a high dollar guitar at a good price.

[StJimmy]

Anyone seen this? This seller has TONS of brand new Gibson guitars for sale. Stock photos on all and the guitar will ship from the seller's "supplier" once payment is made. Money back guarantee (minus a 20% restocking fee!). Either a fraud or somebody big is doing a major liquidation.

http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZ35redluvr

[tomkatzz]

Isn't that only for a new seller? This guy has 20 transactions. It's very possible he transfers the money to another account, shuts down his paypal, and that's that. No chargeback on an account with no money.

This is a scam plain and simple.

I had over 20 transactions and paypal held my money (I was the seller) in escrow until the buyer posted positive feedback. (Or something like that.)

Anyway, I didn't get the money for a couple of weeks.

Regardless, if you see the buyer protection logo, Paypal is responsible no matter what the seller does. That's part of the fees they are paid.

[rogwerks]

scam!!!!!!...

[twinrider1]

Anyone seen this? This seller has TONS of brand new Gibson guitars for sale. Stock photos on all and the guitar will ship from the seller's "supplier" once payment is made. Money back guarantee (minus a 20% restocking fee!). Either a fraud or somebody big is doing a major liquidation.

http://rover.ebay.com/ar/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?mpt=%5BCacheBuster%5D&adtype=1&size=1x1&type=4&campid=5335828753&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%2F_W0QQsassZ35re dluvrhttp://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZ35redluvr (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=3&campid=5335828753&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%2F_W0QQsassZ35re dluvr)


Those prices seem pretty normal, if not high.

[tomkatzz]

I sold a guitar this summer to a guy in France, and the money was in my account within a few days, my bank account. I could have just taken it out in cash had I wanted.

It took him over a week to leave positive feedback. Is this something new?

This is clearly a scam. So I don't see what the seller has to gain.

It's immaterial. Part of the package Paypal sells is the insurance to repay a legitimate claim. If you pay via Paypal, they charge the seller a fee. They then take responsibility for the monetary value of the transaction.

[tomkatzz]

So Paypal will eat it if someone gets shafted? Post the rule on that if you don't mind.

Go to an ebay auction where a payment option for an item is paypal. It will be at the bottom of the screen. Then look to the right for the buyer protection logo. Click on the link that says "See Terms."

The first paragraph says, "Paypal Buyer Protection." This sentence:

Plus, with PayPal Buyer Protection, we cover all your eligible eBay items for the full purchase
price-with no limits and at no additional cost. So go ahead, shop with confidence. PayPal is with you
every step of the way.

Paypal agrees to cover your costs. Paypal does that. Not the seller. It's part of their appeal to use paypal.

[tomkatzz]

For Significantly Not as Described (SNAD) Claims, PayPal may require you to ship the item back to the seller - or to PayPal - or to a third party at your expense, and to provide proof of delivery.

Sure, you might be out return shipping. But Paypal will pay your purchase price plus initial shipping.

Like I said, apparantly for a lot of bidders, it's worth the risk to get an expensive guitar for a bargain price.

[tomkatzz]

It's simply not worth it to many of us who use ebay, and clearly the auctions in question are FRAUDS.

Wrong. If they were clearly frauds, they wouldn't be able to sell, now would they?

But the OP accused the seller of selling stolen goods. Then the next poster said they were made in China. Sounds like a bunch of old women gossiping.

If either accusation were true, then the buyer is definitely protected under the SNAD rule. But, bid. Don't bid. I could care less.

[stvnscott]

Wrong. You might be out of ALL of your money. They might not rule in your favor. Who knows how these things work.

It's simply not worth it to many of us who use ebay, and clearly the auctions in question are FRAUDS.

That's why you pay through PayPal with a credit card. If PP denies your claim, you just initiate a chargeback with your CC company.

[rockstarzusa]

I can't remember the name of the company, but they make these PRS knockoffs, along with some Gibson Supreme's and Fender vintage stuff, Gretsch's etc. The guy is just reselling them with about 25% markup by the looks of it.

Fake and unauthorized..... End of story.

[rockstarzusa]

Actually, it's a roll of the dice with paypal. Most times when a human gets involved in a paypal dispute they will try and mediate a deviation from the original price. An automatic refund is not typical. Especially if the seller has good feedback and a history with ebay. if they are a new, or low feedback seller, this may work in the buyer's favor however. Initial shipping charges are at the sellers discretion, ebay don't have a set rule in terms of reimbursing the shipping charge, in the case of SNAD. For flat out fraud yes, you should be fine.


Sure, you might be out return shipping. But Paypal will pay your purchase price plus initial shipping.

Like I said, apparantly for a lot of bidders, it's worth the risk to get an expensive guitar for a bargain price.

[oscar100]

bad karma:bong

[335guy]

I think what this Ebay seller is doing is deceptive and possibly fraudulent.

http://rover.ebay.com/ar/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?mpt=%5BCacheBuster%5D&adtype=1&size=1x1&type=4&campid=5335828753&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2FBRAND-NEW-Gibson-2008-Les-Paul-Standard-Plus-Electric_W0QQitemZ120378930329QQcmdZViewItemQQptZG uitar%3Fhash%3Ditem120378930329%26_trksid%3Dp3911. c0.m14%26_trkparms%3D72%253A1205%7C66%253A2%7C65%2 53A12%7C39%253A1%7C240%253A1318http://cgi.ebay.com/BRAND-NEW-Gibson-2008-Les-Paul-Standard-Plus-Electric_W0QQitemZ120378930329QQcmdZViewItemQQptZG uitar?hash=item120378930329&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A13 18 (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=3&campid=5335828753&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2FBRAND-NEW-Gibson-2008-Les-Paul-Standard-Plus-Electric_W0QQitemZ120378930329QQcmdZViewItemQQptZG uitar%3Fhash%3Ditem120378930329%26_trksid%3Dp3911. c0.m14%26_trkparms%3D72%253A1205%7C66%253A2%7C65%2 53A12%7C39%253A1%7C240%253A1318)

He states it is a brand new Gibson Les Paul Standard Plus. And shows a stock photo of a Genuine Gibson. But then says he needs to get the guitar from his "supplier", whoever that is. Now, as I see it, the supplier is either stealing new Gibsons from other sources, or these are counterfeits made in China or who knows where. While the picture is a genuine USA Gibson, the guy doesn't promise to sell you THAT guitar, but a guitar labeled as a Gibson, which could be a counterfeit. $1,699.00 cannot be dealer cost. I was told GC discounts 30% off retail. It's $2,699.00 at GC. That represents about 70 % of the retail cost, and makes the retail cost $3,899.00. That would mean the guy is listing the opening bid for 44% of suggested retail. If that was actual dealer cost ( wholesale ), then that would mean dealers who sell at 70% make 25% ( or $975.00 ) per sale on that guitar. Now, that's not unreasonable I suppose, but why would this guy sell at cost? And maybe, he makes his dough by sending the fakes, then charging the customer the 20% ( $339.80 ) re-stocking fee when they bitch about it and want to return it. I cannot see why anyone would sell guitars at cost if they are in the business of selling guitars, that is, IF his cost is $1,699.00. It can't be, so where is he getting the guitars then?

[StJimmy]

Musicians Friend maybe?

The stock photo of the 1960 VOS Lemonburst Les Pauls he sold for $1599 and $1999 look identical to the GO version. If you go to MFs website, where they sell for $2999, the photos show a one piece body and the inked number on the headstock has two digits segregated from the final four digits, like a G0. Maybe they are just stock photos and what you get is something different, but if that truly is a G0 for $1599 and $1999 brand new, that's a pretty good price, I'd say. Assuming it's a legit liquidation, the big caveat is that you're dropping two grand for something sight unseen.

I can see it being legit in this economic environment, especially if the liquidating company has their inventory financed. All that stuff just sitting there cost money every month. The ebay seller sells the stuff and MF (or whoever) drop ships it to the customer. I've seen this done before. Oh well, we'll know soon enough when the feedback starts pouring in.

[StJimmy]

Just read that the actual liquidator is Woodwind and Brasswind, who is affiliated with MF, Music 123, Guitar Center, etc.

I figured it had something to do with MF because of that 1960 VOS Les Paul.

[335guy]

Read it where?

[GCDEF]

I've been exchanging messages with him. He sounds like he could be legit. I don't have all the details on what he's up to, but I feel better about it than I did at first.

[RussB]

Damn...those prices on Gibson's are making my head spin. If it's too good to be true, maybe it is!?