Freshening up blues solos?

[SouthernShred]

So, I've recently started a power-trio blues band and I've got to admit, I never thought I'd run out of ideas for blues solos, but doing 30 songs a night...well, let's just say I repeat myself here and there :D

How do you freshen up your solos out of the normal Minor/Major pentatonic rut?

Shannon

[lhallam]

Originally posted by SouthernShred
So, I've recently started a power-trio blues band and I've got to admit, I never thought I'd run out of ideas for blues solos, but doing 30 songs a night...well, let's just say I repeat myself here and there :D

How do you freshen up your solos out of the normal Minor/Major pentatonic rut?

Shannon

1) Play your major/minor pentatonics in the "wrong key". Great example: http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50614

2) Look into modes.

[Mark C]

Learn some Bebop blues licks. Check out the Charlie Parker omnibook, Kenny Burrell, Wes Montgomery and Jimmy Smith.

Learn some country licks. Seriously - they can be very cool in the right places.

[SouthernShred]

Originally posted by lhallam
1) Play your major/minor pentatonics in the "wrong key". Great example: http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50614

Any particular "wrong key" to play in relation to the "right key"?

[Tom Gross]

Originally posted by SouthernShred
Any particular "wrong key" to play in relation to the "right key"?

Blues in A -

Over the A7:
Maj Pentatonic in A, G, D
minor pentatonic in E, F#, B

Over the D7:
Minor Pentatonic in A, B, E
Major Pentatonic in D, C, G

Also, for a "jazzy" feel, go to another position and play minor - for example, on Blues in G, over the G7, go to the 10th fret D minor position and play D dorian stuff but with a lot of sliding into notes instead of bending.

[SouthernShred]

Originally posted by Tom Gross
Blues in A -

Over the A7:
Maj Pentatonic in A, G, D
minor pentatonic in E, F#, B

Over the D7:
Minor Pentatonic in A, B, E
Major Pentatonic in D, C, G

Also, for a "jazzy" feel, go to another position and play minor - for example, on Blues in G, over the G7, go to the 10th fret D minor position and play D dorian stuff but with a lot of sliding into notes instead of bending.

Holy cow that makes sense...now I need to run home and jam on this. Thanks Tom.

[EricT]

A trick I often use is to go up a half step for a few notes and then slip back again. This has to be done with conviction for it to sound good, like you really mean it!:) Up a b5 is good as well, it gives you almost the same notes.
Something Scofield does a lot is to play the diminished half-whole scale. It works best over a major blues. He also uses the maj 3rd(bent up from the min 3rd) and the #6th a lot.

[Tim Bowen]

Try working with ideas from the Lydian Dominant scale. i.e. Mixolydian mode, but with a #11 (you can also visualize it as melodic minor up a fifth from the root). To go more "out", try superimposing melodic minor up a half step from the root; for my tastes, this sound is most effective over the V chord. In a typical twelve bar, on bar # 6, instead of playing the IV chord, substitute a diminished line up a half step from the IV chord's root. Learn some I-VI-II-V moves in place of the standard bar room shuffle turnarounds. A pet sound of Robben Ford's is to replace the b7 in a minor pentatonic with the major 6th. One of my fave "sweet & sour" sounds is to use minor7b5 arps & ideas up a sixth from the root of a dominant chord (ex: C#min7b5 over E7). Don't forget those "teaser" notes that hover microtonally between minor & major 3rds. Chromatic, whole tone, dimininished, & augmented noises all sound lovely & dark to me over dominant tonalities. The trick with this stuff is to not make it sound forced & contrived - you have to hear it before it falls naturally within your phrasing. The other trick is that a little bit goes a long way - a huge dose of Chuck Berry & T Bone Walker, with a dash of "sweet & sour" sauce makes for a nice marriage in more sophisticated treatments of blues & blues rock noises. Jazz is open game.

[Tom Gross]

Great post, Tim

The thing for me about going "out" in a Blues context (and any other, actually) is deciding when to go outside.
For me, there are two particular situations that are fantastic for trying all of the cool strange outside stuff:

- When a blues does NOT have a quick four, so the first 4 measures are all on the I, play more outside stuff on the 4th measure.

- When a blues moves directly from the V back to the I (doesn't go V-IV-I), as in a ii-V7. Then you want to go more outside (try all that cool stuff Tim was talking about, like melodic minor up a 1/2 step), cause it will resolve when it goes back to the root.


Try this over a backing track - take a backing track with no quick four, and over the last measure of the I try anything - say, major scale up a b5 (Eb Major over A7), then go right into your D7 stuff.

[Tim Bowen]

Hey Tom, thanks for adding some clarification to the ideas I mentioned. I agree, developing some tastefulness as to when or when not to use this stuff really is key. When I first started getting into outside tonalities, I was so enamored with the new sounds that I was superimposing them everywhere I could make them fit. I'm sure I sounded pretty goofy.

Another approach I've used over blues tunes with some success is decidedly more "inside". For a while I was in a Cajun/Zydeco band, & I had to ape a lot of accordian lines on guitar. So I've used those types of sounds, as well as the "slip note" piano moves of the old classic Country pianist Floyd Cramer, and have used banjo rolls & fake pedal steel licks on occasion also. I like the chord voice leading in Gospel music, & dig from that bag a bit as well.

BTW, years ago I used to go hear a band here in town called Tom Gross & The Varsity - would you happen to be the same guy by any chance?

[Tom Gross]

Originally posted by Tim Bowen
BTW, years ago I used to go hear a band here in town called Tom Gross & The Varsity - would you happen to be the same guy by any chance?

No, I'm more of a JV player. :)
Not me.

[SouthernShred]

Hey Tim, who do you play with in Atlanta? Anyone? I live in the Columbus area.

[Jon Silberman]

First off, whatever Tom Gross suggests, just do it - it flat out works for him and I'm relying a bunch, these days, as well on his suggestions. E.g., playing the V harmonic minor over the I as it moves to the IV (if I'm remembering it right - it's become easier to play than to remember and explain!).

Second, I second the "learn country licks" suggestion. Blues + country = rockabilly and rockabilly is cooler than cool - audiences LOVE it. This is another approach I rely on alot now, too.

Oh yeah - got to contribute some ideas of my own! Also from the I to the IV (esp. last measure of the I):

- I# diminished run (chord it on the first 4 strings and you'll see it's essentially the I7 arpeggio with a b2 on top);

- b2, b5, and #5 as passing tones.

[Tom Gross]

Originally posted by Jon Silberman
....Second, I second the "learn country licks" suggestion. Blues + country = rockabilly and rockabilly is cooler than cool - audiences LOVE it. This is another approach I rely on alot now, too.


Right back atcha, Jon - this stuff sure works for you.

Now I gotta go work on that diminished & b2 stuff you threw in.

[Jon Silberman]

Originally posted by Tom Gross
I gotta go work on that diminished & b2 stuff you threw in.

This is something Robben Ford demonstrated to us at the NGW one summer and it went right over my head at the time. In the spring, when I was taking lessons from Bruce Katsu (The Rockin' Bones) locally, he revisited it with me and it finally clicked.

One example of a cool "sound" for the last measure of I going into the IV: the notes 1 - b2 - 3 - 1 - #5 - b5 - 5. What fascinates me about this is how close it is to the classic klezmer scale underlying tunes like Hava Nagila. Just one of those cool juxtapositions. :)

[art420guitar]

Hey SS I have a suggestion that isn’t very technical but it helped me out a lot, it doesn’t really require theory thinking (for slow people like myself haha). It’s basically a chromatic approach. You obviously know the pentatonic scale right? Well let’s say there is a particular note you find yourself on a lot (or any note for that matter). Play that note, but play the three notes before it first and end up on the “target” note with your pinky. So in Cm if you are going to play an F on the g string you could do this. G string: ---7—8—9—10. All of these notes are not in Cm but as long as you end on the “target” note, which will be in key, you are good to go. What’s cool is that you can apply this thinking to every lick but now change it up. You can play 8—9—7—10 or 7—9—8—10 etc. as long as you wind up on target. Now that you’ve got these in mind, you can literally do this for every note in the pentatonic scale. Now start doing the same thing except with three (or any multiple of) strings. In Cm again you can visualize 7—8—9—10 on the A, D and G strings because the 10th fret on all of these strings is located in Cm. That’s 12 notes to choose from randomly as long as you end on a note in key.

This is how I approach outside playing. I don’t think in terms of what notes, as long as I end on one that is in the scale. If you play a note not in Cm, it’s out. That’s all I need to know. If I want dissonance I play a lot of notes not in the scale. If I want to just spice up the pentatonic, I just hit a few chromatic notes. Hope that makes sense.

You could check out www.guitaraxis.com for Don Mock’s books. One is called Target Tones and this is where I got the idea from

[lhallam]

Originally posted by art420guitar
So in Cm if you are going to play an F on the g string you could do this. G string: ---7—8—9—10. All of these notes are not in Cm but as long as you end on the “target” note, which will be in key, you are good to go.

Not arguing just pointing that you need to be careful putting major 3rds in minor keys. Best for most instances to get off it fast and not play it on a downbeat. In this case E natural over Cmin.

[Tim Bowen]

Originally posted by Tom Gross
No, I'm more of a JV player. :)
Not me.

At least you manage to get in the game now & then. Me, I'm just the Water Boy. :cool:

[Tim Bowen]

Originally posted by SouthernShred
Hey Tim, who do you play with in Atlanta? Anyone? I live in the Columbus area.

I play in town a bit, but mostly gig around Rome & north Georgia. Bands are the Dirt Dobbers (original rock) & the Accidental Hillbillies (original Americana). I also work regularly with an acoustic duo (hmmm, I guess we'd be called "Dave & Tim"...).

How about yourself, ever play up in this neck of the woods?

[SouthernShred]

Originally posted by Tim Bowen
I play in town a bit, but mostly gig around Rome & north Georgia. Bands are the Dirt Dobbers (original rock) & the Accidental Hillbillies (original Americana). I also work regularly with an acoustic duo (hmmm, I guess we'd be called "Dave & Tim"...).

How about yourself, ever play up in this neck of the woods?

I used to play occasionally up in that area with a blues band I was in about 3 years ago. I've just recently rejoined the gigging scene and I've got a blues power-trio going, so hopefully we'll get up that way to play. We're calling ourselves "Tail Dragger" after the Howlin' Wolf song. I was in Birmingham Friday night playing with Scott Holt (of Buddy Guy fame)...that was a lot of fun. I think I may have heard your band the Accidental Hillbillies once...sounds very familiar.

[ricoh]

Try sliding to the notes you usually bend to and try playing out of a major 7th type position to sweeten your licks up. {Think Duane Allman}

[Tim Bowen]

Originally posted by SouthernShred
I used to play occasionally up in that area with a blues band I was in about 3 years ago. I've just recently rejoined the gigging scene and I've got a blues power-trio going, so hopefully we'll get up that way to play. We're calling ourselves "Tail Dragger" after the Howlin' Wolf song. I was in Birmingham Friday night playing with Scott Holt (of Buddy Guy fame)...that was a lot of fun. I think I may have heard your band the Accidental Hillbillies once...sounds very familiar.

Yeah man, definitely give a yell if you're up this way! The Accidental Hillbillies mostly do bars & festivals, but also have opened shows for Buddy Miller, Brad Paisley, Merle Haggard, folks like that.

[SouthernShred]

Originally posted by Tim Bowen
Yeah man, definitely give a yell if you're up this way! The Accidental Hillbillies mostly do bars & festivals, but also have opened shows for Buddy Miller, Brad Paisley, Merle Haggard, folks like that.

I'll probably run up there when Boutique Guitar Exchange (www.boutiqueguitarexchange.com) opens in November. Maybe we can do lunch or something.

[that_brianm_guy]

Originally posted by Tom Gross
Blues in A -

Over the A7:
Maj Pentatonic in A, G, D
minor pentatonic in E, F#, B

Over the D7:
Minor Pentatonic in A, B, E
Major Pentatonic in D, C, G

Also, for a "jazzy" feel, go to another position and play minor - for example, on Blues in G, over the G7, go to the 10th fret D minor position and play D dorian stuff but with a lot of sliding into notes instead of bending.


Thanks much - this has given my playing a much needed boost!


What about over the E7?

[Tom Gross]

Originally posted by that_brianm_guy
Thanks much - this has given my playing a much needed boost!


What about over the E7?


Ahhh...Here's where it gets interesting.

Using my simple explanation quoted above.....

Over the E7:
B minor stuff
A Major stuff

Maj Pentatonic in E, D, A
Minor pentatonic in B, C#, F#

If it doesn't go back to the D7 before resolving to the A7, then you can play a lotta "outside" stuff - in other words, experiment with playing notes that don't seem to fit. Try maybe F minor stuff over the E7.

[that_brianm_guy]

Originally posted by Tom Gross
Ahhh...Here's where it gets interesting.

Using my simple explanation quoted above.....

Over the E7:
B minor stuff
A Major stuff

Maj Pentatonic in E, D, A
Minor pentatonic in B, C#, F#

If it doesn't go back to the D7 before resolving to the A7, then you can play a lotta "outside" stuff - in other words, experiment with playing notes that don't seem to fit. Try maybe F minor stuff over the E7.


Thanks again!

Back to the woodshed :dude

[Redbell]

Great post & great responses everbody!
One of my fave things to do in any solo context that works especially well in blues is to quote melodies from tunes other than the one you're playing:
Think Clapton's Blue Moon in Sunshine Of Your Love or Jimi's Strangers In The Night at Monterey in Wild Thing.

[McLenison]

Redbell, you stole my comment!!!!!! This is fun, especially, when you include TV or cartoon themes. I use Popeye, Rockabye Baby, Woody the Woodpecker and some others. It gets the audiences attention quick! Oh, and don't forget the Twilight Zone theme!

[Mr.Hanky]

Smoke more dope and use chromatics.

[Dr. Jimmy]

Blues in A -

Over the A7:
Maj Pentatonic in A, G, D
minor pentatonic in E, F#, B

Over the D7:
Minor Pentatonic in A, B, E
Major Pentatonic in D, C, G



What's the theory behind this? Sounds interesting.....

[wavey63]

For some fresh ideas, check out BB Kings "live in Japan". This is when he was on top of his game and he throws in some very tasty licks in the blues context. I would have thought that you could only do so much with the blues thing but he realy keeps it interesting.

[Lucidology]

Over the E7:
B minor stuff
A Major stuff

Maj Pentatonic in E, D, A
Minor pentatonic in B, C#, F#

If it doesn't go back to the D7 before resolving to the A7, then you can play a lotta "outside" stuff - in other words, experiment with playing notes that don't seem to fit. Try maybe F minor stuff over the E7.

Actually, you can still play lots of outside stuff over the E7 if it goes to the D7...
Just think of the D7 as an extended A minor chord...
Thus it's still functioning as a Dominant to Tonic move ....:YinYang

[gennation]

The easiest way to spice up Pentatonic with Blues is to not necessarily learn a bunch more stuff but get better with the tools you already know.

Have you found out that you can super-impose the Major Pentatonic scale DIRECTLY on top of the Minor Pentatonic scale?

By using these two scales as one you can get all the scale popular to Blues/Rock...Min Pent, Maj Pent, Mixolydian, Dorian, Lydian Dominant,...and when you add in the Blue Note you end up with pretty much a chromatic scale.

All of that seems overwhelming, but it's using things you already use. How can all this be??? Check out my Advanced Pentatonic Tutorial at my lessons site: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/AdvPent/AvdPentTOC.htm

Read the Introduction, after that there's over 50 examples that include audio, tab, diagrams, explanations, etc...

It will DEFINITELY take you to the next level...and it's free! Spend a couple of nights with the material going from lesson to lesson. Once it clicks, this stuff will last you the rest of your life.

[HarryJ]

A great way to bring some jazz harmony to the blues, is to simply imply an altered V7 chord, or ii , V, as you transition to a new chord.

The 1st 4 measures of a 12 bar with a "quick change" looks like this:

/ C7 / F7 / C7 / C7 /

A lot is (or can be) going on just in the 1st measure

Instead of playing 4 beats of C7:

/ C7 C7 C7 C7 /

Try:



Ex 1. / C7 C7 Gmin7 C7b9 (or any alteration) /

Ex 2. / C7 C7 C7#9 (you know... the Jimi chord) Gb13 /

Ex 3. /C7 C7 Gmin7 Dbdim7 /

This is for starters... there are so many options here

Very important to understand the following:

In each example above, The 1st two C7's are Dominant chords that are NOT in transition, or "Functioning". These are referred to as static.

On a static dom (the 1st two beats of the 1st measure)

You may want to try:

1. The same blues scales you have been using: C basic blues, C maj pents, Altered blues (ie C basic with the b7 replaced with a 6, or C basic blues with the M3rd) etc...

And / OR

The afore mentioned and uber cool Lydian Dominant sound

C, D, E, F#, G, A, Bb, C

Now...

On the 3rd beat of ex 1 , and 3, outline the G min sound:
G min is the ii of your "destination chord" ( in this case the IV chord, F)

A simple Gmin arp goes a long way:

G, Bb, D, (F, A, C, E )
1_ b3_5_ b7_9_11_13

OR

G Dorian ideas


Still with me?

Now.... On the 4th beat...

This C7 is different from first 2.

This dominant chord IS in transition (or functioning) as it will resolve to IT'S (I7 chord (F)

As such, it is treated differently!
A functioning dom, LOVES to be altered up the wazoo (so to speak)
It's party time on this chord!
"Dissonance" or "tension" is awesome here!

Try:

Ex 1. C7b9 :C Super locrian (Db melodic minor scale) errr.. same as Db Maj with a b3

In Ex.2 the 4th beat is Gb13 This is the tritone (b5) sub for C
Most likely you have been using this all along as you transition to your new chord.

A VERY Kewl sound is to outline the Gb13 arpeggio as you approach the IV chord (F7)

To get comfortable with the sound try this:

Here is a superb lick based on the top 4 strings of a Gb13 / Gb9 (tritone sub of C), or even a Db min add9, implying Db melodic minor)
Phrase it so the last note "C" is sounded on the 1st beat of the IV (F)

_11___9_______________
__________9_________
______________9____8____
________________________11_____(10)__
__________________________________
____________________________________

Still here?

Ex 3. uses a Db dim7, in this case it is really just another way of playing C7b9

Try a Db dim arp (remember these repeat every 3 half steps)

Here is a cool lick that captures that sound

_12__9_____________________
_________11__8__(9___10)________
________________________
_________________________
_________________________
_________________________

This lick starts out as a Db dim then approaches the last note (A) chromatically. Line the last note up with the 1st beat of the F7 chord.

Another you say?

This is the C half/whole dim sound
The last note, D is the 13 of the F7
phrase the lick so the last note sounds on the 1st beat of the F7

_______________________8_9__(10)________
_______________8_10_11__________________
______8__9__11________________________
10_11________________________________
__________________________________
__________________________________


K... Congrats! You officially made it to the 2nd measure!!!! :-)
Apply the same formulas to the rest.
Remember, imply the ii, V of the chord you are GOING TO

Hope this made sense, it is far more effective in a classroom setting
and I'm a lame 2 finger typer

Harry Jacobson
NGW lifetime facuty
www.harryj.net (http://www.harryj.net)

[jimfog]

Thus it's still functioning as a Dominant to Tonic move ....:YinYang

Oh......don't YOU start, now!!!

;)

[Clifford-D]

Every blues tune has its own sound or melody and phrasing.

One way to stay fresh throughout a long night is simple..

Play off the melody of the song. Quote the melody.
This becomes a springboard for variations on a theme and invention.

It also ties the whole of the song into one theme. A package.

Since every tune is different, (we hope) this provides infinate
creative possibilities.

I really don't like it when solos are disconnected from the tune.
I know a guy who always plays the same licks on all similar tunes.
I know another guy that is always playing Clapton licks, nothing
original, sad.

You must play the tune. It's that easy.



:)

[hear and play]

Oh......don't YOU start, now!!!

;)




:):):)

[jimfog]

I would say, like a batter going to the plate in baseball, go into the solo of each song with a concept.........and STICK with that concept.

It's could be:

playing the melody and variations

playing a particular rhythmic figure....and playing off and around it.

copping the attitude of a certain player/style, etc

call and response

dynamics

varying your tones

purposefully NOT varying your tones

playing entirely in double stops

playing chord-ally

the element of surprise

playing familiar phrases and quotes.

etc, etc, etc.......

Whatever it is, the main idea is to take an idea and WORK it.......not just play.

Soon, you'll be doing that unconsciously......that's when the good stuff happens.

- Jim

[KRosser]

I would say, like a batter going to the plate in baseball, go into the solo of each song with a concept.........and STICK with that concept.

It's could be:

playing the melody and variations

playing a particular rhythmic figure....and playing off and around it.

copping the attitude of a certain player/style, etc

call and response

dynamics

varying your tones

purposefully NOT varying your tones

playing entirely in double stops

playing chord-ally

the element of surprise

playing familiar phrases and quotes.

etc, etc, etc.......

Whatever it is, the main idea is to take an idea and WORK it.......not just play.

Soon, you'll be doing that unconsciously......that's when the good stuff happens.

- Jim

This is great advice - I think a lot of people make the mistake that you need to go into a solo with a ton of ideas, when learning to 'squeeze the juice' out of one good one often gives it a sense of cohesion and direction that listeners can really hang onto even if they're not aware of it.

I learned this from studying lots of Miles Davis & Jim Hall, but it really applies to any style....David Gilmour, Alex Lifeson and Mark Knoplfer being some rock players that immediately come to mind as being very good at this.

[jimfog]

This is great advice - I think a lot of people make the mistake that you need to go into a solo with a ton of ideas, when learning to 'squeeze the juice' out of one good one often gives it a sense of cohesion and direction that listeners can really hang onto even if they're not aware of it.

The most fun I have with guys working on this is when they start saying they're "bored JUST playing the blues scale" ......or whatever we're focusing on.

I'll take two or three notes out of that scale and using just those, I'll play 5 or 6 choruses for them, trying to show how much you can do with so little.

It's usually an eye-opener.

(I try not to follow that up with "Now multiply that by, oh, around 500 Bazillion, and you'll start to get an idea of how limited the possibilities are.....".....lol)

- jim

[lalaland]

This is great advice - I think a lot of people make the mistake that you need to go into a solo with a ton of ideas, when learning to 'squeeze the juice' out of one good one often gives it a sense of cohesion and direction that listeners can really hang onto even if they're not aware of it.

I learned this from studying lots of Miles Davis & Jim Hall, but it really applies to any style....David Gilmour, Alex Lifeson and Mark Knoplfer being some rock players that immediately come to mind as being very good at this.


Yeah, the worst sounding player is someone who trys to throw everything they know into one solo. I think I still do that too often...

Just pull out enough to win. Hehehe.

I was just gonna say that I agree, with one exception. I think that it might be best to do this within a chorus or two rather than a whole solo, depending how long the solo is.

Jamie

[Clifford-D]

It's just slipped out Jim ....
please forgive moi'.... http://www.smileyhut.com/misc_expressions/rolleyes.gif

We so don't want to go there ...
We do want to go there and have a good time treating each other with respect. No need to reply.:)

As per the op query,,

Dom to Tonic is good stuff. In the blues it's the I7 going to IV7
or the V7 going to I7. In functional harmony it's all over the place.

One cool thing to do with these V - I chord moves is to play the
diminished 1/2 whole scale al la the jazzers. Robben digs it a lot.

Definately spicy
..I............................................IV
G7..............G7alt.....................C9
|---------3-|---6-4-3-|---------|---|
|-------3---|-6-------|-6-5-3---|-3-|
|---3-4-----|---------|-------4-|-3-|
|-----------|---------|---------|-2-|
|-----------|---------|---------|---|
|-----------|---------|---------|---|

Play the same lick up in min 3rds


:)

[KRosser]

Yeah, the worst sounding player is someone who trys to throw everything they know into one solo. I think I still do that too often...

Just pull out enough to win. Hehehe.

I was just gonna say that I agree, with one exception. I think that it might be best to do this within a chorus or two rather than a whole solo, depending how long the solo is.

Jamie

Well, of course it's a generalization - I'm just suggesting squeezing the juice out of one idea at a time, until it's dry or it leads you to a better one...

[lalaland]

Well, of course it's a generalization - I'm just suggesting squeezing the juice out of one idea at a time, until it's dry or it leads you to a better one...

Of course. It'd be just as bad to ride one idea to death, over and over (for 47 pages...) than to throw in everything at once. But the latter is probably WAY more common. I think that statment is something that more people should here, especially this:

gives it a sense of cohesion and direction that listeners can really hang onto even if they're not aware of it.


The other think that I think is worth mentioning is this:

When using any one of these ideas up to the point where it needs resolution or no longer becomes musically useful/interesting, the best way to resolve it is to do the opposite...

If you're playing with just one guitar tone for the whole chorus/solo/whatever, if you're using a deep tone, the resolution would be a sharp, bitting tone. And visa versa.

Playing in the low range, end with a high phrase.

Call and response? End with a flurry of notes - leaving no space for response.

I hope these examples make light of what I'm trying to get across.

Miles is a great example for this.

I think that many of our favorite solos use this principle. Granted, its incredibly vague, but to sum it up:

If you're using one sound, you'll have to use a different sound to resolve it.

I've gotten the most mileage out of this system, but its been mostly subconcious. Looking back, you can see it.

What do you guys think?

Jamie

[Clifford-D]

Of course. It'd be just as bad to ride one idea to death, over and over (for 47 pages...) than to throw in everything at once. But the latter is probably WAY more common. I think that statment is something that more people should here, especially this:



The other think that I think is worth mentioning is this:

When using any one of these ideas up to the point where it needs resolution or no longer becomes musically useful/interesting, the best way to resolve it is to do the opposite...

If you're playing with just one guitar tone for the whole chorus/solo/whatever, if you're using a deep tone, the resolution would be a sharp, bitting tone. And visa versa.

Playing in the low range, end with a high phrase.

Call and response? End with a flurry of notes - leaving no space for response.

I hope these examples make light of what I'm trying to get across.

Miles is a great example for this.

I think that many of our favorite solos use this principle. Granted, its incredibly vague, but to sum it up:

If you're using one sound, you'll have to use a different sound to resolve it.

I've gotten the most mileage out of this system, but its been mostly subconcious. Looking back, you can see it.

What do you guys think?

Jamie
Sounds like you're looking for a system of sorts Jamie.

I don't think on all those great soloists are thinking
"ok, time to flip", time for "the system" :)

As far as blues goes,

imo, A good soloist will "breathe" with their phrasing. But breathe
in the way we do when we talk or sing or tell stories.
A good soloist will connect one moment with the next and make the whole cohesive to the listener.
Call it call and responce. Call it balance.
Call it contrast. Call it "hills and valleys".
The good soloist has an umbrella of awareness going on and doesn't loose sight of the story being told.
Maybe the story involves an Albert Collins "ice attack" followed by some Albert King "woman tone" thing,
followed by some fast scrambled eggs Claptonesque thing,,, or the essences of..( don't forget to sound like you)

As long as it's connected and tells a compelling story.
I'll be sitting there as the listener going "yes, and then
what happens next??"

Of course there are those players that allow for less breathing and are driven by velocity and density,
in my opinion, macho BS.
I really don't care much about someone that must showoff their
fast picking. Boring. True wanking.

Give me Greenie, or BB, or Frisell, or if you want fast, Henderson, Benson,
Ford, Govan, Johnny Winter, Gatton, and so on,,, Those guys phrase wonderfully.

Anyway, I think we're on the same "Pagie", aren't we??


...

[lalaland]

Sounds like you're looking for a system of sorts Jamie.

Not really. I think its something to be aware of, but in my expericne - and you're may be different - when I try to apply an idea in concert with the intent of it producing some predetermined effect/emotion, it almost never ends up that way. So I guess its more of an unconcious system, as all the best ones seem to be.


I don't think on all those great soloists are thinking
"ok, time to flip", time for "the system" :)

Neither do I for one second. I'm just saying that it occurs in their solo. I'm willing to bet that most of them weren't thinking about it.

Good soloists tend to milk one idea - as Ken said - but I doubt that its concious either.


imo, A good soloist will "breathe" with their phrasing. But breathe
in the way we do when we talk or sing or tell stories.
A good soloist will connect one moment with the next and make the whole cohesive to the listener. Call it call and responce. Call it balance.
Call it contrast. Call it "hills and valleys".
The good soloist has an umbrella of awareness going on and doesn't loose sight of the story being told.
Maybe the story involves an Albert Collins "ice attack" followed by some Albert King "woman tone" thing, or the essences of..
As long as it's connected and tells a compelling story.
I'll be sitting there as the listener going "yes, and then
what happens next??"

Agreed with the breathing thing. The closer we get to vocal phrasing, the better.


Of course there are those players that allow for less breathing and are driven by velocity and density, in my opinion, macho BS.
I really don't care much about someone that must showoff their
fast picking. Boring.

Agreed. Showcasing is pretty boring usually...

Anyway, I think we're on the same "Pagie", aren't we??

Yeah, pretty much. I'm just suggesting a method that may internalize stuff, so that when you're playing, there is no 'system'. Does it work for you?

Jamie

[57tele]

Kimock always suggested, especially in very open contexts (not a lot of changes), the use of what he calls 'big dumb ideas.' These are essentially very simple overarching, largely non-harmony-based structures that give the listener a place to hang his/her hat? ear? brain? on, often without even knowing it. There's a thread on his forum where he talks a bit about it:

http://www.online-discussion.com/SteveKimock/viewtopic.php?t=54&highlight=dumb

[Clifford-D]

Not really. I think its something to be aware of, but in my expericne - and you're may be different - when I try to apply an idea in concert with the intent of it producing some predetermined effect/emotion, it almost never ends up that way. So I guess its more of an unconcious system, as all the best ones seem to be.



Neither do I for one second. I'm just saying that it occurs in their solo. I'm willing to bet that most of them weren't thinking about it.

Good soloists tend to milk one idea - as Ken said - but I doubt that its concious either.



Agreed with the breathing thing. The closer we get to vocal phrasing, the better.



Agreed. Showcasing is pretty boring usually...



Yeah, pretty much. I'm just suggesting a method that may internalize stuff, so that when you're playing, there is no 'system'. Does it work for you?

Jamie
Jamie, you said " I'm suggesting a method so there is no system"
Sorry dude, that's very funny.

Anyway, you betcha, I got tons of "concepts", that's what I call them.

I've been scouring Guitar Player and Downbeat and every other
guitar mag out there for concepts for at least 20 yrs. I'm always looking for ways to shrink
the complexity of my chosen game.
And it's out there, in abundance, like fruit on a tree.
In fact, I'm all backed up in the book binding biz.
I think I have an over active photocopy finger.

At a garage sale I picked up a comb binding spreader and paper punch.
Plus about a thousand spines for $40.00 ,what a deal.

Since then I make photocopy hard copies and bind them into books.
So I put all blues studies presented in GP together and are now bound together.
Same with all the jazz studies in GP, Just Jazz Guitar, Guitar techniques and so on.
I've got dozens of organized studies bound by subject.. Very Cool.
Even a few of these discussions I've read here on TGP I've made books out of.
Like my all things Kimock book, it's getting pretty fat.
Makes great books.



Great resourse for my teaching.


:)

[KRosser]

Good soloists tend to milk one idea - as Ken said - but I doubt that its concious either.


Sorry to be a stickler for semantics, but what I'd really say is -

Good soloists play good solos. "Milking one idea" is one tool to use.

Anyway - nice stuff here, Jamie, and from everyone....

[lalaland]

Sorry to be a stickler for semantics, but what I'd really say is -

"Milking one idea" is one tool to use.


Well you SHOULD be sorry. :nono

Agreed. Laziness on my part...


Good soloists play good solos.


Nothing more, nothing less.


Jamie

[Tag]

Actually, you can still play lots of outside stuff over the E7 if it goes to the D7...
Just think of the D7 as an extended A minor chord...
Thus it's still functioning as a Dominant to Tonic move ....:YinYang



VERY VERY GOOD!! Playing the function I see! (There is a thread floating around about that somewhere.) ;)

Then when the IV7 (same as Imin7 or 6 goes to I7, just change the minor third to a major third.)