r 'n' b sliding 4ths and 5ths

[Aj_rocker]

hey gang

i was on a tube the other day and i wondered who was the first person to use them, as in the earlist recording of them. you know they are a classic thing now but started us off.


AJ

[vhollund]

Its very old
But Jimi Hendrix did that alot
And he was a great soulmusician

But the whole moving of especially 4ths comes quite natural on a Guitar
I think we will find it in Jazz, Blues, Hawaian guitar and way back in traditional westafrican guitarplaying and Luth-playing

[Elektrik_SIxx]

I'm guessing guys like Curtis Mayfield and Steve Cropper pioneered it.

[bobmc]

Sometimes I wish I could STOP using them! When I hear myself on playback, I find I overplay them.

[brad347]

I'd suspect there wasn't a single 'first.'

It's probably a case of parallel evolution. It IS a pretty natural thing to do, being that the guitar is tuned in fourths.

A really nice example is Cornell Dupree on "Rainy Night in Georgia" by Brook Benton.

[Franklin]

Sometimes I wish I could STOP using them! When I hear myself on playback, I find I overplay them.

I finally have overcome that same issue. It's just that they sound so good, it's hard to not too sometimes... :banana

[bobmc]

Franklin,

I find that folks mistake my use of them for actual talent! (which in turn, makes it all that much harder giving them up)

[BluesForDan]

I'm not quite sure I am following what the OP is talking about. Are you talking about slurring the note into the fourth, as in coming up from underneath? I may already be familiar (and doing this), but I don't understand the OP's question.

[cameron]

I'm not quite sure I am following what the OP is talking about. Are you talking about slurring the note into the fourth, as in coming up from underneath? I may already be familiar (and doing this), but I don't understand the OP's question.

I think he's talking about sliding double-stops, such as heard on tunes like "Rainy Night In Georgia", as cited above. Cornell Dupree is a real master of that kind of style.

[Aj_rocker]

cheers cameron, i was merely wondering, i love to use them in a ballards (like all of us do!!). i think curtis might been the "first" if that means anything it doesnt but still!

I have more 4ths than talent for sure!!

AJ

[Mark Robinson]

When I think of a fifth interval that's the basic power chord, and the fourth interval is the inversion of the same, as in Deep Purple, Smoke on the water. Are you actually talking about 6th intervals here? Eg, a third degree of the scale, played under the octave of the root? Then you harmonize that interval right up or down. If so, yes I dig that sound a lot.

[cameron]

When I think of a fifth interval that's the basic power chord, and the fourth interval is the inversion of the same, as in Deep Purple, Smoke on the water. Are you actually talking about 6th intervals here? Eg, a third degree of the scale, played under the octave of the root? Then you harmonize that interval right up or down. If so, yes I dig that sound a lot.

The guys who slide double-stops around use both 6ths (inverted 3rds) and 4ths (inverted 5ths). The sixths (think of Cropper's intro to "Soul Man") usually involve skipping a string and are often finger picked. I've heard 6ths like that referred to as "Memphis 6ths" - because of the Steve Cropper connection and the Stax/Volt records he played on.

So it'll be a 6th when a string is skipped, and a 4th when adjacent strings are played. Individual licks can use both intervals in various combinations . . .

[brad347]

When I think of a fifth interval that's the basic power chord, and the fourth interval is the inversion of the same, as in Deep Purple, Smoke on the water. Are you actually talking about 6th intervals here? Eg, a third degree of the scale, played under the octave of the root? Then you harmonize that interval right up or down. If so, yes I dig that sound a lot.

No.

Listen to "Rainy Night in Georgia."

Context is everything. A 4th or 5th with distortion in the lower register sounds one way. With a clean tone in a higher register, it sounds another way.

[Poppa Stoppa]

OK I don't know who did it first, certainly Jimi stole from Curtis Mayfield, but why don't we tab our favourites so we can all learn some nice tricks here?

I take it we're talking about this kind of thing (in A):

--5~7~5--------------------------
--5~7~5--5~7~5-------------------2
----------4~6~4-----------2~4~2--2
-------------------2~4~2--2~4~2-------
-------------------2~4~2---------
----------------------------
Any more for any more?

Geoff

[wallinbb]

Great thread! Keep 'em coming, please!

[vhollund]

Check out the beginning of "Castles made of sand"

[fr8_trane]

Technically speaking this gospel/soul/R&B rhythm style makes use of sliding and hammered on 3rd's, 4th's, 5th's and sixths. Blues, funk and country players also use sliding tritones quite effectively. Country guys also tend to use bends more than hammer ons - like bending a minor 3rd up to a 4th or even a ma7 to a unison.

[ohmslaw]

Technically speaking this gospel/soul/R&B rhythm style makes use of sliding and hammered on 3rd's, 4th's, 5th's and sixths. Blues, funk and country players also use sliding tritones quite effectively. Country guys also tend to use bends more than hammer ons - like bending a minor 3rd up to a 4th or even a ma7 to a unison.

Go back and listen to early jazz, be-bop, and big band like Glenn Miller and you will hear players and singers using this type of thing day and night. Frankly I too don't have much of a clue as to precisely what the thread is actually about but from the conversation thus far can assume it means blues notes and a generally bluesy style but "sliding fourths and fifths?" Sliding which way? Bending? Slurring? No mention of double stops. Can you link to a clip? You will get an even better answer like that.

[Aj_rocker]

hey, i hear ya.

I meant sliding 4ths and 5ths. like all the soul/gospel guys do. get me?

[ibobunot]

Arlen Roth: Soul and R&B Double Stops (http://www.gibson.com/en%2Dus/Lifestyle/Lessons/Lesson%2DOf%2DThe%2DDay/Soul%2Dand%2DRnB%2DDouble%2DStops/)

[mc5nrg]

Floyd Cramer (nashville piano man) was one of the folks who helped popularise that-.

[ohmslaw]

hey, i hear ya.

I meant sliding 4ths and 5ths. like all the soul/gospel guys do. get me?

You mean sliding double-stops like the video shows. Can be thirds or fourths or fifths or sixths.

[chervokas]

I'm loving this thread. I'm a keyboard player and drummer who also plays a little guitar and I adore those Mayfield/Cropper licks and would love to learn more about 'em.

Curtis Mayfield, of course, was playing in his own weird open F# tuning: F#, A#, C#, F#, A#, F#

[Rob 62]

No disrespect to any of the posters on this thread, or to Cornell Dupree, but "Rainy Night" was the late, great Charlie Freeman on guitar. Freeman was part of The Dixie Flyers, a "house band" used by Jerry Wexler when he moved from NYC to Miami. Raised in Memphis, Freeman had attended Messick High School (as did Cropper, and Duck Dunn). Freeman was taking serious music lessons, and Cropper would stop by his house and "steal" the lesson, afterward.

If there are people who don't "get" the sliding double stop, it is most likely not a device heard in the music they listen to. Listen to gospel music, and soul - and it is part of the language.

[brad347]

No disrespect to any of the posters on this thread, or to Cornell Dupree, but "Rainy Night" was the late, great Charlie Freeman on guitar. Freeman was part of The Dixie Flyers, a "house band" used by Jerry Wexler when he moved from NYC to Miami. Raised in Memphis, Freeman had attended Messick High School (as did Cropper, and Duck Dunn). Freeman was taking serious music lessons, and Cropper would stop by his house and "steal" the lesson, afterward.

If there are people who don't "get" the sliding double stop, it is most likely not a device heard in the music they listen to. Listen to gospel music, and soul - and it is part of the language.

Really! I had never heard that theory. And I was born/raised in Memphis!

There DOES seem to be some uncertainty though...

this blurb from allmusic.com states that the band on that side is:

guitarist Cornell Dupree, harmonica player Toots Thielmans, organist Billy Carter, bassist Harold Cowart, drummer Tubby Ziegler, and pianist Dave Crawford

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:difuxxealdfe

I looked it up once, and that's probably what I was basing that on. Where did you hear it was Charlie Freeman?

[The Kid]

hey, i hear ya.

I meant sliding 4ths and 5ths. like all the soul/gospel guys do. get me?

That's my bread & Butter Doc!

[Rob 62]

The stuff about Memphis (and Messick) I got from "Sweet Soul Music" by Peter Guralnick, as well as the info about Wexler hiring the Dixie Flyers for Benton's "Brook Benton Today" that was released on Atlantic subsidiary Cotillion in 1970.

The liner notes to my Brook Benton set indicate Charlie Freeman, and that is always what I had heard - not sure where, but I thought it was commonly accepted.

Edit: Even the liner notes on this Rhino set are confusing - in the notes it talks about the Dixie Flyers (with Freeman on guitar), but the track listing states "Brook Benton with Cold Grits," without any information about who played guitar. The playing sounds like Cornell Dupree. So, now I have to do some more research.

[Donbecker]

Arlen Roth: Soul and R&B Double Stops (http://www.gibson.com/en%2Dus/Lifestyle/Lessons/Lesson%2DOf%2DThe%2DDay/Soul%2Dand%2DRnB%2DDouble%2DStops/)

Thanks for posting the Arlen Roth lesson!

"Seeing" the string skipped double-stops as just part of chord shapes makes this immediately usable...

[brad347]

The stuff about Memphis (and Messick) I got from "Sweet Soul Music" by Peter Guralnick, as well as the info about Wexler hiring the Dixie Flyers for Benton's "Brook Benton Today" that was released on Atlantic subsidiary Cotillion in 1970.

The liner notes to my Brook Benton set indicate Charlie Freeman, and that is always what I had heard - not sure where, but I thought it was commonly accepted.

Well one thing's for sure, either SOMEONE is wrong, or they're talking about two different recordings of the same tune! :D

In either case, it's a beautiful track.