best direct guitar box for recording

[sf audio]

So my room doesn't sound good - even when close micing I get all kinds of muck/phase so I've given up on that for now.

Using an ADA MP1 and Kittyhawk Quattro into an ADA microcab II. I get good sounds, but as you would expect it's not like a great miced up amp in a room....

So what would be a better direct solution? Palmer, ADA ampulator? Want to take the direct recording to the best possible level I can...

thanks

[Baloney]

Too many good DI boxes to list. Dont go cheap. Another option is to build a ISO box. Stick a mic and the cab/amp in it and crank the pee out of it.

[elambo]

Too many good DI boxes to list. Dont go cheap.

He used the word "best" so I don't think he's looking for a comprehensive list.

In fact only one.

Palmer PDI-03.

[sf audio]

The Palmer is pretty convincing?

[Rosecutions]

I sometimes take a direct signal from guitar to reamp at a later date if a guitarist is struggling with his tone/effects or if we've just got so many live sources running at once we need to cut down some bleed. I really like the Tab/Funkenwerk V71 for guitars. Sometimes don't even reamp them later as they sound great straight from the DI with a little EQ and sent to the plate bus.

[Mercury25]

Palmer PDI-09--check it out here: www.palmergear.com (http://www.palmergear.com)

[smallbutmighty]

If a crappy sounding room is the problem, maybe you could do what I do (http://artmusicwords.blogspot.com/2009/03/mini-gobos.html). Seems to work OK for me. There are only two in the photos, but I actually use four in total.

Just throwin' out options.

ac

[elambo]

The Palmer is pretty convincing?

Quite.

[a1briz]

fwiw - I have a brand new, unused Peavey MSDI Patch box for sale.
$85 shipped.

Basically its Peavey's take on the Palmer PDI-09. I know its built in
in some of their higher end amps. One nice feature of the Peavey is that
it has a level control (i don't think the palmer has this but not sure).

[s2amps]

I use a Palmer as a load box only and send the dry signal into Sonar, where I use impulse cab and mic sims. It is very flexible, works great, and sounds better than any cab sim device I have ever heard.

[Kevin]

I use a Palmer as a load box only and send the dry signal into Sonar, where I use impulse cab and mic sims. It is very flexible, works great, and sounds better than any cab sim device I have ever heard.

I also use this approach with the Palmer PGA04, although I use the effected signal through a Neve clone preamp direct to DAW. It sounds great with a cab sim with a little room verb for air. I've got 4 different heads that I can match different cab sims to.
If you like the way your amps sound, this gets it as close as you can get, IMO, without miking.

[s2amps]

I also use this approach with the Palmer PGA04, although I use the effected signal through a Neve clone preamp direct to DAW. It sounds great with a cab sim with a little room verb for air. I've got 4 different heads that I can match different cab sims to.
If you like the way your amps sound, this gets it as close as you can get, IMO, without miking.

"Effected" or "uneffected"?

I use the 04 also, but don't like the cab sim in it at all. It makes every amp sound pretty much the same to me. So I have the Filter volume turned all the way down and the Full Range volume turned all the way up.

I'm a little confuzzled at what you are saying there...

[Kevin]

You're confuzzled because I said "effected", which is what I meant to say. The "cab sim" (filter) in the Palmer is nothing more than a low pass filter. It doesn't really simulate anything. For higher distortion settings on my amp, I find I like to roll off those spikey frequencies before I hit the sim impulse in my DAW. If I need some more presence, I'll add some 2-4k broad eq.
For clean to mild crunch sounds, the full range sounds better without so much filtering from the Palmer. All a matter of taste though. I dial it in differently every time I use it and I find that each of my amps needs to be tweaked differently.
When it comes down to my keeper takes though, I do mic my cab because I have the room and the know how to make it sound better than the Palmer. But for putting ideas down quietly, I haven't found anything better than the Palmer with cab impulses.

[sf audio]

If a crappy sounding room is the problem, maybe you could do what I do (http://artmusicwords.blogspot.com/2009/03/mini-gobos.html). Seems to work OK for me. There are only two in the photos, but I actually use four in total.

Just throwin' out options.

ac

So you get better isolation with this setup? What about reflections from above?

I find that I like the mic'd up guitar cab sound better, but the direct sound is warmer and more defined. The mic'd sound has muck in it, like it's picking up all the bad reflections.

[smallbutmighty]

As I mentioned, I actually use four cushions total. I just left them off in the picture so you could see the mic inside.

I position three around the front of the cab as shown, and lay the fourth on top to keep out reflections from above. It's as dead as a doornail inside my little cushion fort. :AOK

ac

[Pietro]

Why not a Pod X3L or something like that? Or a used ToneLab SE (my fave of those).

[shoe124]

I used to use a little palmer and split my signals to record a direct signal and amp at the same time, but have recently come across The MW-1 It is killer..The little palmer box blow a few chips in it and had to be repaired, so it was always suspect. The MW-1 has a great boost function with input impedance controls, and it can also be used to re-route things back thru amps..like vocals or virtual instruments...It also has several ground lifting points to get rid of hums...It's a great, great piece.

Todd

[dorfmeister]

I am interested in this.

http://www.emersonwilliams.com/index.php?page=bluestone-pro

http://www.emersonwilliams.com/images/products/bluestoneProSmall.gif

[sf audio]

I'm just using the preamp output into the ADA microcab. I'd imagine that using a load box like the palmer or even the bluestone will sound better, as it's taking the speaker out into line level, and then I could run through the microcab?

[Denyle_Guitars]

I had a microcab II and IIRC, it can accept up to 100w speaker level signals. I never tried it though because like you, I used a preamp with the microcab. I believe you'll still need a load box for the amp, however.

The MW-1 has become my favorite guitar DI. Of course it doesn't simulate a speaker cab but if you intend to use software amp emulators, check it out.

[wrightdude]

My room has a closed and muffled sound when recording. One thing that helps is to tilt the amp back a little.

I have a Redbox but would not suggest that for serious recording. Have had better luck recordind amp direct into gearbox w/amp model turned off using only cab model.... But close mic'ing in my crappy room is still my preferrence.

Would love to try the Palmer sometime....

[s2amps]

As I mentioned, I actually use four cushions total. I just left them off in the picture so you could see the mic inside.

I position three around the front of the cab as shown, and lay the fourth on top to keep out reflections from above. It's as dead as a doornail inside my little cushion fort. :AOK

ac

I love it! I actually recorded my 1st two albums that way back in the mid 90s. I had a Mac running Deck II software (8 whole tracks), a little Peavey mixer, and a couple of Shure mics. I even made a vocal booth out of couch cushions. Everyone assumed I booked studio time in Austin to do it, so I guess it turned out pretty darn good.

[s2amps]

I had a microcab II and IIRC, it can accept up to 100w speaker level signals. I never tried it though because like you, I used a preamp with the microcab. I believe you'll still need a load box for the amp, however.

The MW-1 has become my favorite guitar DI. Of course it doesn't simulate a speaker cab but if you intend to use software amp emulators, check it out.

If I have some time, I'll record some samples for you guys. I have the flu today, so I don't have much else to do.

It really helps to have a power amp of some description in the signal chain. Otherwise, you are missing the interaction between the preamp and power amp, the power tubes and output transformer, and the OT and "speaker." It makes a huge difference in sound--especially with distorted tones.

My home recording rig is:

Guitar > Preamp > Power Amp > Palmer 04 > RNP > MOTU HD192 > Sonar 7 PE > Cab Sim Plugs.

I built my own series of preamps to be used with a Peavey Classic 60 tube power amp running 6L6s (think Egnater) in the studio.

I generally like to record my clean tones without the power amp as they sound fuller when solo'd, but I tend to roll off some of the bass when I put them into a busier mix.

I record all overdriven and heavily distorted tones through the power amp. They just don't sound right without it.

I've tried the same thing with hardware cab sims and found the same thing to be true.

[yucatown]

The best direct box for recording guitar I've ever used is the Rockman Sustainor, designed by Tom Scholtz of Boston. It has pronounced mids on the distortion settings, but running an EQ after it will yield phenomenal results. Many an 80s record were cut using this little wonder.

[sf audio]

so after all this it seems the best route is to get a load box, so I can run the preamp into poweramp, thus get the interaction of all the pieces in the chain.

So......looking for a basic load box. The bluestone looks cool. Also there's this box called the "silent speaker". Prefer not to spend north of $500 if I can avoid it. I would still use the microcab for cab sims.....

any other load basic load boxes to look at?

[elambo]

The "cab sim" (filter) in the Palmer is nothing more than a low pass filter. It doesn't really simulate anything.

That's incorrect - it's more dynamic than a simple LPF. Apply an LPF to the unfiltered signal and you'll hear how the two are different. And technically it's a "speaker" simulator, not a cab simulator, although it has settings to emulate different cabinets. I'm referring to the 03 above, not the 04 - I'm not much of a fan of the 04.

[elambo]

so after all this it seems the best route is to get a load box, so I can run the preamp into poweramp, thus get the interaction of all the pieces in the chain.

So......looking for a basic load box. The bluestone looks cool. Also there's this box called the "silent speaker". Prefer not to spend north of $500 if I can avoid it. I would still use the microcab for cab sims.....

any other load basic load boxes to look at?

How about a THD Hot Plate and Palmer 09? The Hot Plate is the load box and the 09 is purely the speaker simulator. I used this for about a year with an Egnater M4 and it sounded very good.

[sf audio]

the hot plate sounds good...it has a load setting which kills the speakers. Does it affect the tone in any way when on the load setting? I've heard the hotplace affects the tone when using the higher settings and really squashing the output....

[elambo]

the hot plate sounds good...it has a load setting which kills the speakers. Does it affect the tone in any way when on the load setting? I've heard the hotplace affects the tone when using the higher settings and really squashing the output....

Those are two different uses for the Hot Plate. If it's set to "load" then it's essentially just passing the audio minus the power to the line out, which you'd then connect to a speaker or cab sim. If you use the Hot Plate to attenuate the signal with the volume knobs - connecting a speaker to the speaker-out - then it's going to affect the sound, yes. The only system I've heard that attenuates without hurting the sound is London Power's scaling thing. I don't know exactly HOW it works but it works.

[sf audio]

Those are two different uses for the Hot Plate. If it's set to "load" then it's essentially just passing the audio minus the power to the line out, which you'd then connect to a speaker or cab sim. If you use the Hot Plate to attenuate the signal with the volume knobs - connecting a speaker to the speaker-out - then it's going to affect the sound, yes. The only system I've heard that attenuates without hurting the sound is London Power's scaling thing. I don't know exactly HOW it works but it works.

This sounds good - I just need to use the load setting to send a line output into my microcab. This looks to be a good way to get the sound of the poweramp and not just the preamp like I've been doing. And it's cheap enough to give it a shot....

[TNO]

I don't think you could do much better than running one of the Tech 21 Character pedals straight in.

[peridot1]

Right now I use Blackstar HT pedals and the Character series. Also a Womanizer. Wouldn't mind trying one of those palmer's though. Someday.

[elambo]

Addendum to my past mention of the Hot Plate and Palmer 09 -- I'm pretty sure I was going: Amp --> Palmer --> Hot Plate AND DAW. The THRU of the Palmer goes to the Hot Plate and the balanced OUT goes to a preamp, then the DAW. I was using a Germanium for the preamp.

Earlier I'd said that the Hot Plate went first in the chain. Although I did try this initially, putting the Palmer first sounded better. It makes the Hot Plate less of a sonic factor (no issue at all really).

[Greggy]

Probably my most dissappointing gear experiment was a brief fling with a Palmer PGA-04. Except for cleanish guitar tracks, that thing failed miserably in my studio. I was shocked given the reputation of the company and its product line. Live and learn. Not a fan of the direct recording methods I've tried, including the various pods and boss GT series floorboards.

[boogers]

Probably my most dissappointing gear experiment was a brief fling with a Palmer PGA-04. Except for cleanish guitar tracks, that thing failed miserably in my studio.

I'm with ya. I can get about 2 usable tones out of it and those are arguably usable. I gave up on its hardware speaker simulation and just use one as a load box now with software cab sims.

[Greggy]

I'm with ya. I can get about 2 usable tones out of it and those are arguably usable. I gave up on its hardware speaker simulation and just use one as a load box now with software cab sims.

If I were still chasing direct tones I would try the same thing.

[sf audio]

I agree that direct guitar sounds aren't up to snuff when compared to mic'd amps. Unfortunately it's really my only option, as I can't a) run any decent volume on the amp and b) my room sound affects the mic'd sound, even when close micing.

I'm just hoping to get a authentic sound, so when I right a good song (it will happen soon...:)) it comes across well, and not like a simulation. Hopefully a hot plate on the load setting and through my microcab will do the trick...if not, then I'll jump up to a palmer 03 or even the motherload box which looks cool...but both of those are more pricy...

[elambo]

I completely agree about the PGA-04. It was the first Palmer load/sim I bought because the 03 hadn't been re-released at that point. I only put 10 minutes into it before realizing it was going back. I did work with it for a couple hours but it went nowhere. Bad digital-sounding distortion and a general plastic sound I didn't like at all. I swapped it for the 03 (got one of the very first of them) and couldn't be happier. I've since bought another for a 2nd rig. Have compared it to GR3, Waves GTR, even going direct using cab sim IRs from Altiverb and Speakerphone - still prefer the 03. Vintage 03s were selling for $2,000 before the re-release and for good reason, but the re-release is a spot-on copy of the original for MUCH less. For the life of me I can't figure out why anyone would by the 04, unless it was during the time where the 03 had been discontinued. It does have more tonal options so maybe that's the appeal, but its basic sound is NOT like the 03.

[TheJudge]

sf audio,

Does the following clip sound authentic to you or simulated?

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7387905

I'll tell you how I did it if the sound works for you. If not, that's ok too! I also live in a situation where I cannot mic my amp.

[Kevin]

I completely agree about the PGA-04. It was the first Palmer load/sim I bought because the 03 hadn't been re-released at that point. I only put 10 minutes into it before realizing it was going back. I did work with it for a couple hours but it went nowhere. Bad digital-sounding distortion and a general plastic sound I didn't like at all. I swapped it for the 03 (got one of the very first of them) and couldn't be happier. I've since bought another for a 2nd rig. Have compared it to GR3, Waves GTR, even going direct using cab sim IRs from Altiverb and Speakerphone - still prefer the 03. Vintage 03s were selling for $2,000 before the re-release and for good reason, but the re-release is a spot-on copy of the original for MUCH less. For the life of me I can't figure out why anyone would by the 04, unless it was during the time where the 03 had been discontinued. It does have more tonal options so maybe that's the appeal, but its basic sound is NOT like the 03.

I won't argue that people hear things differently and prefer one thing over another but I've gotten perfectly good results from the 04. One thing that can make it sound like crap is trying to blend in the full volume (unaffected) control when using any kind of distortion. If you go to the Palmer gear website, there is an interview with the designer who states this about the difference between the 03 and 04:

What is the difference between the PDI-03 and PGA-04 filter circuits?

The PGA-04 was my answer to customers asking for more versatility. Though you may read many different comments, the heart of the
PGA-04 is the original filter circuit with the two switches replaced thru two potentiometers for a continuous control between the extreme
positions of the switches.
Please allow one (very last) comment about the PGA-04 vs. PDI-03 discussion.
The PDI-03 was a very simple to use piece of equipment. You couldn’t go wrong. With the more versatile PGA-04 you can produce some really weird sounds. But this does not mean that -as some people say- the PGA-04 is rubbish.
In case someone is telling you that, please charge him with twice the price for his PDI-03.

Is there a thread somewhere where we can post direct recording clips and signal chains and compare them? That's the best way get an opinion on the differences of direct recording. I would never take someone's word, good or bad, and make a decision that way.

[elambo]

I'm intimately aware of the article, the conversations which occurred between Martin (the designer) and some other people close to him around the time this interview was conducted, and their personal opinions. Let's just say that the re-release of the 03 was exciting for many people. I'm also aware of Neumann's claim that the KM184 was built as a response to customers wishes for a 54 which had less noise (there was a KM84 in the middle, but it had a similar goal, just a better design than the 184). Compare a 54 and 184 and see if the products match the marketing, and keep in mind that "marketing" is what these things are all about.

The only way to know the differences between an 03 and 04 is to use them side-by-side. I have recordings of both, but it's unlikely that I was using the same amp settings, maybe not even the same guitar. I'll try to find them.

I'm not trying to offend 04 owners, but for someone who's considering both (and they're similarly priced) it should be known that they do NOT sound the same. Awareness was my only intent. Certainly you should do your own homework.

[Greggy]

I completely agree about the PGA-04. It was the first Palmer load/sim I bought because the 03 hadn't been re-released at that point. I only put 10 minutes into it before realizing it was going back. I did work with it for a couple hours but it went nowhere. Bad digital-sounding distortion and a general plastic sound I didn't like at all. I swapped it for the 03 (got one of the very first of them) and couldn't be happier. I've since bought another for a 2nd rig. Have compared it to GR3, Waves GTR, even going direct using cab sim IRs from Altiverb and Speakerphone - still prefer the 03. Vintage 03s were selling for $2,000 before the re-release and for good reason, but the re-release is a spot-on copy of the original for MUCH less. For the life of me I can't figure out why anyone would by the 04, unless it was during the time where the 03 had been discontinued. It does have more tonal options so maybe that's the appeal, but its basic sound is NOT like the 03.

You got it, I bought the 04 when the 03 wasn't in production (forgot the year but around 2003 or so). I'm not slamming Palmer, only referring to my very limited experience with a single product. I have friends in Nashville (not music related) and actually stopped by the Palmer dealer in that warehouse about 1/2 mille north of Adelphia Stadium along the Cumberland on a previous visit before I purchased (seems the dealer is no longer in business, new one is off of 40 west around Charlotte Pike). Hung out for half a day and had some fun.

[elambo]

They didn't get 03s on the shelf until September of '05.

The Palmer Gear folks are great people. I give them my highest recommendation.

[sf audio]

sf audio,

Does the following clip sound authentic to you or simulated?

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7387905

I'll tell you how I did it if the sound works for you. If not, that's ok too! I also live in a situation where I cannot mic my amp.

Very cool, and pretty damn authentic. So, let me in on your magic secret....:RoCkIn!!

[TheJudge]

PM sent with setup details.

[elambo]

This is a secret?

PM me, too.

[TheJudge]

No secret. I could not tell from this thread if anyone else cared for the details. I will post the details later today.

[Greggy]

PM sent with setup details.

That sounded good and authentic to my ears. Would be interested in your setup.

[mwc2112]

I like the Palmer stuff: PDI-03 if you need a load, PDI-09 if you don't.

Otherwise I'd say record the preamp signal sans cab sim and apply one in software.

[LSchefman]

There's no damn "best" anything.

There are only choices.

[TheJudge]

Below are the relevant details for the clip I posted above:

Strat w/custom shop 69 pickups > Klon > 4-hole NMV plexi style amp (Aiken Invader Mk I) with balanced XLR direct out > Audio Technica microphone impedence matching transformer > Apogee Duet > MacBook Pro running Logic 8. I added some reverb and a bit of delay using Logic plugins.

I also own Guitar Rig 3, Amplitube 2, Hendrix, Metal, and Revalver III. I've tried using the cabinet sims in those amp modelers as well as impulse response files in Revalver and Logic's Space Designer. I have been most happy with the cabinet emulation built into the XLR direct in the amp. My second choice is THD hotplate line > Apogee Duet > DAW using Guitar Rig 3 speaker sims and EQ.

The XLR direct out on my Aiken Invader was designed to emulate a Marshall 4x12 cabinet loaded with Celestion greenbacks and mic'd by a Shure SM57. The XLR direct out feeds the signal post power amp, so I get the tonal goodness of the power amp section! One could likely accomplish the same thing using another hardware speaker/cab emulation device.

[ToneZappa]

Seems like a lot of people knock the PALMER PGA-04

Heres my first clip with a PGA-04 it was recorded at 4 a.m. in my living room (total silent recording) I used a Squier Strat into a BOOGIE MK3 with all the FXs from a BOSS GT-5 (delay & reverb) then into the PGA-04 into my Laptop. http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=453041

I have a PALMER PDI-05 that I use live and the sound guys love it. Its stereo but without the load. I use it at home and just plug stomp boxes into it and take a line out to the laptop. Heres an overdrive sound with it (just the solo) http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6292056

The other alternative is EQ here are two clips useing just an old BOSS SE-70 (multi FXs unit) just going direct and using the EQ in the SE-70.
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=5750571
and
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6726232

These days there are lots of options that all work you just have to tweak them to your taste I think.

[mikefair]

The Palmer is pretty convincing?

Just ask Keith Richards.

[LSchefman]

>>Just ask Keith Richards.<<

Gee, I'll call him now. Have his number handy?

[mikefair]

>>Just ask Keith Richards.<<

Gee, I'll call him now. Have his number handy?

Ha ha ha! No, of course not. He's been pretty forthcoming about gear in interviews. Even when the Rolling Stones don't make a particularly great record, Keith's guitar tone has been bloody fierce.

[elambo]

Ha ha ha! No, of course not. He's been pretty forthcoming about gear in interviews. Even when the Rolling Stones don't make a particularly great record, Keith's guitar tone has been bloody fierce.

True. And there are quite a few big name guitar monsters that use the 03 in the studio for album work. Some woudn't be quick to admit it, but I've seen pictures as proof.