Playing "Outside"

[simeon]

i've posted this on a couple of boards before, but i thought i'd put it up here anyway...

this is a distillation of some of the things i've learned...i can't say i'm particularly fluent at any of them, but hopefully some people might find them useful...i'd be interested to hear some other approaches as well...!

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playing "outside" does not involve chucking a bunch of random notes into a solo that aren't in key - try it - it sounds pretty crap!

playing "outside" can be described as actually playing inside a different key to the one that the rhythm section is playing, or using some identifiable "logic". this "insideness" is what gives the outside section of the solo musical sense.
so to play successfully "outside", you need to be able to play successfully "inside" - which means practicing over changes and being able to analyse chord/scale relationships so that you can use scales appropriate to the chords that you're playing over.

there are several ways to play outside - here are some of them...

implying changes that aren't being played by the band
sidestepping
approach tones
sequences
tonal subsitution


implying changes that aren't being played by the band...

john scofield is the master of this style - check out Uberjam which is full of one chord vamps - because the band is grooving on one chord, you can easily hear when sco is moving in and out of the tonality.
for example - the band is grooving on an Am chord, so instead of just playing A Dorian, you can pretend that the band is actually playing Am and then playing C7b9 / F#7#9 / Bm7b5 / E7#9 - you play those changes, but the band just plays Am for those four bars. your lines are "outside" Am, but follow a common III VI II V jazz chord sequence - a very strong sound that the listener can follow and that makes musical sense.
a simpler example would be to imply Valt / Im / Valt / Im etc, so play E7alt licks for one bar followed by Am licks for one bar

sidestepping...

a bit simpler this one - just move sideways for a bit, so if you're playing over Am, play Bbm licks for a bit, or Abm licks for a bit - as with all outside playing - be tasteful and always try to end on a chord tone - so finish your outside lick on an A, C, E or G note

approach tones...

this a a bebop technique - scott henderson and holdsworth are good at this - approach chord tones with a note that's a semi-tone above or below your target note, so in Am, approach an E from Eb or F. these sound good if you play the approach note on a weak offbeat. they sound even better if you use lots and play really fast! a slightly more advanced version of this is "double chromaticism", where you play an approach tone, like Eb (going to E), but instead of playing E as your next note, you play another chord tone and then play the E

sequences...

man, you could spend your life studying sequences...
there are basically two types - diatonic and non-diatonic
diatonic sequences involve playing a pattern of 3 or 4 or 5 notes and then cycling that pattern through the parent scale - keeping all the notes within the scale (the intervals in the sequence will change to keep all the notes "in" - non-diatonic sequences step outside the parent scale by keeping the intervals in the sequence the same - for example...
the band is grooving on Am and you play C B G A
you now have a choice and you decide to play a diatonic sequence moving through each note of A Dorian, so you follow that up with D C A B, E D B C, F# E C D etc etc (you're not stepping outside the scale of A Dorian)
in an alternate universe you decide to play a non-diatonic sequence that cycles all the first notes of the sequence through all the notes of an Am arpeggio, so you play C B G A, E Eb B C#, G F# D E, A Ab E F#
the first notes of each group of four notes = C E G and A = Am arpeggio
if you wanted to sound more outside then the first sequence of notes could have contained outside notes and you could have cycled it through the arpeggio of an Em chord...
or the first sequence could have contained notes from an E7 alt chord and you could have cycled it non-diatonically through the notes in an E diminished scale...
hopefully you're beginning to see that this is a BIG topic!
one very effective way to use sequences is to move them chromatically - so shift a lick by semitones, tones or minor thirds, or even major thirds for a hip bebop sound - you're not implying another key by doing this, but the chromaticism forms the basis of your logic and the listener will pick up on it

tonal substitution....

basically subsitute the scale you're using for another one -
the band continues to vamp on an Am (bless their cotton socks!) and you're happily using an A dorian scale, but then you decide to use an Eb Dorian scale for 2 bars, you go back to A dorian and then you play C Dorian for two bars (you've kept the same mode, but changed the root) - you could play C# Lydian, C Altered or B Locrian (changing key and mode) - almost anything, really...it depends on what you like the sound of and how far "out" you want to go!. this technique can become too obvious if overused, so only dip into it once during a solo for maximum effect....

[tonedrip]

That's an awsome post. Thank you !

I love tasty outside playing to standard type progressions(ala Scott Henderson etc) . There are a few methods you have noted that I had not heard of. I will look forward to applying them.

Cheers !

[glendrix]

Very informative post! Thanks

[simeon]

cool!

has anybody else got some other "methods" we could try?

sim

[art420guitar]

i just hit notes with reckless abandon but always make sure i land on a note in key. ;) for me personally, once i become too analytical about it, i start to repeat myself for some reason.

[spaceboy]

wow, awsome stuff! i THINK it's all stuff that's come up before in some form or other, but I know i didn't remember them all til now, and they probably weren't as well explained!

Originally posted by art420guitar
i just hit notes with reckless abandon but always make sure i land on a note in key. ;) for me personally, once i become too analytical about it, i start to repeat myself for some reason.

i know what you mean about the repetition, but i often think that if that happens, it's not because of the analyticalism, but because I'm using that knowledge and way of thinking in the wrong way...

but there's always a place for letting out whatever wants to come.

[Shakkal]

That's a great post. I actually have it printed out from when you posted it at HC ... must have been over a year ago ...

[Joe]

I think of the 21 modes according to tonality.

The tones IMO are:

Minor
Major
Dominant
Diminished
Minor major

So once I establish the tonality of the underlaying chords, I can decide if I desire to stay within the tonality or not. Then I can select a mode that fits the choice I have made.

Over a major sounding change you could play ionian or lydian.

Want to go more out? Lydian augmented or Lydian b9

Want to put a dominant feel to it? Lydian dominant

Want to build to lydian dominant? Start ionian, go lydian, then add lydian alterations and wind up playing lydian dominant, with or without alterations from the format of R 2 3 #4 5 6 b7 and go for an altered dominant sound, over a major vamp that is a very OUTSIDE sound that you can establish by building up to it.

There are 12 notes, 7 are diatonic, the other 5 can all be used if done so correctly. In reality the ONLY thing preventing you from playing all 12 notes all the time is your ability to place the outside notes in a tasteful way. There is nothing accidental about the "accidentals" you see in your key signature unless the writer really sucks, so all we are doing is justifying why it works.

[EricT]

Excellent post simeon!
A very alternative approach is to use either a whammy pedal or guitar synth, and don't sweep the pedal all the way up. This is of course extremly outside, but works well for fast transition licks or if you want some really high tension!

[simeon]

joe - good tips - that's the "tonal substitution" technique, i think...

eric - another good tip for a whammy pedal is to move it randomly about (never to the minimum or maximum) while hammering on notes with the left hand and simultaneously moving the tremelo arm up and down - this works well with tons of delay.
make sure you play all your solos this way throughout the whole gig and gradually turn up between each tune, so that by the end, you're at maximum volume.
for maximum effect, wear sunglasses and a cowboy hat and stick out your tongue during every solo.

;)

[EricT]

More tension, MORE tension, MORE TENSION!!!:dude

[jzucker]

Very nice post.

Personally, I feel that the tonal substitution and implying changes is the same thing. When you play Eb Dorian over Am7 you are implying a Dbmaj tonality.

Another thing that can be fascinating is the use of dodecaphonics - i.e. chord synonyms.

In dodecaphonics, the theory is that any given diatonic chord can be freely substituted for any other diatonic chord. This is true because chords are built in 3rds so oddly spaced chords (i.e. built in the 1-3-5-7-9-11-13) are simply inversions of each other with upper extensions. Evenly spaced chords (2,4,6,8,etc) are simply the extensions of the previous chord.

Thus, Cmaj7,Dm7,Em7,Fmaj7,G7,Am7, Bm7b5 are all the same chord.

Once you understand that, it opens up incredible poly-tonal variations.

For example, most jazzers use the common tritone substitution (i.e. Db7 in place of G7).

If you take the diatonic extensions of the Db7 you get:
Gbmaj7,Abm7,Bbm7,Cbmaj7,Db7,Ebm7,Fm7b5

Now, try taking a chord from the tritone's synonyms and playing it over the original G7 chord. For example, Abm7.

This is what Coltrane was doing back in the '60s as he derived his advanced concepts.

You can keep going with this stuff too.

If you take the Abdim7 chord, you see that it can be viewed as a G7b9,Bb7b9,Db7b9 and E7b9.

Now, take the synonyms for each of those 4 tonalities, put them into a table and begin using tones from one of those chords.

For example, the ii chord of the Bb7 (key of Eb) is Fm7. Try using Fm7 over the G7.

You can keep getting further and further out with this stuff.

There's a lot more of this information in my book (sorry about the spam...) :D

[simeon]

nice post - i do have a question though...

i've used this technique when substituting chords in a sequence - i'm not a big fan of altered dominant chords, so i tend to substitute with another chord from the same key - so for example, instead of playing an Ab altered chord, i might play an Am maj7 chord instead.

in terms of soloing over this sequence though, you're still using the same notes, so you havn't really stepped outside the tonality...so isn't it the same deal with using Abm7 instead of Db7? - aren't you still using the notes from Db lydian b7 / G altered?

sim

[jzucker]

Originally posted by simeon
in terms of soloing over this sequence though, you're still using the same notes, so you havn't really stepped outside the tonality...so isn't it the same deal with using Abm7 instead of Db7? - aren't you still using the notes from Db lydian b7 / G altered?
sim

Yes, the synonyms in each key are parallel, i.e. they are the same tonality. So playing over Abm7 instead of Db7 is not a substitution but a synonym.

However, playing Abm7 over G7 would be changing the tonality from Cmajor to Gbmaj or one of it's synonyms.

P.S.

In doing this type of subbing, I actually enjoy using the b7 of the Abm7 (i.e. the note Gb over the G7 chord.

When I first heard 'Trane doing it, I was disturbed but it now sounds fine to me. Obviously, everything's in how you resolve it. Anything outside can be made to sound pretty if it's resolved properly.

[simeon]

isn't a popular be-bop technique to use a V after the Abm7 (thinking of it as a II chord) - so approach a C chord with Abm7 / Db7?

i've seen this several times in the real book...

sim

[jzucker]

Originally posted by simeon
isn't a popular be-bop technique to use a V after the Abm7 (thinking of it as a II chord) - so approach a C chord with Abm7 / Db7?
i've seen this several times in the real book...
sim

Yes, that's a popular bop technique. Personally, I prefer to leave that kind of device to the players.

I would typically just write G7 C and allow the band to create the resolution they wanted unless I was writing for horns or strings and had harmonized that kind of sub.

I don't remember if you mentioned this in the original post but you can always use symetrical displacement to play outside.

i.e. play up or down a 1/2 step, whole step, min 3rd, etc.

Many of these lead you down the same path.

For example, playing over Dbm7-G7 or Ebm7-Ab7 over G7.

Often times I'll do that in my soloing. Creating a temporary chord progression over:
G7 C
: / / / / : / / / / :

And I might play:

: Ebm7 Ab7 Dm7 G7 : Abm7 Db7 Cmaj7 :

That's how Coltrane's Countdown came about:

: Dm7 Eb7 Abmaj7 B7 : Emaj7 G7 Cmaj7 :

[simeon]

i'm not quite good enough to squeeze that many chords into a bar, but i do quite often sidestep and also play up a minor third, which sounds nice if you play Gm licks over an E7 vamp, for example (very henderson!)

on a good day, i might be able to imply III VI II V over two bars!

thanks for the tips!

sim

[jzucker]

Originally posted by simeon
i'm not quite good enough to squeeze that many chords into a bar, but i do quite often sidestep and also play up a minor third, which sounds nice if you play Gm licks over an E7 vamp, for example (very henderson!)

on a good day, i might be able to imply III VI II V over two bars!

thanks for the tips!

sim

I've heard your stuff and I think you're plenty good enough to play any of those subs!

Thank you for sharing your tips as well.

Do you ever practice playing over Countdown? I find it to be a good exercise for playing out. You can take the countdown sequence and superimpose it over any static chord.

For example, on a Dm7 or G7 funk groove I'll often play Countdown sequences of

Dm7 Eb7 Abmaj7 B7 Emaj7 G7

[simeon]

i'm locked into a bit of a rut when it comes to playing over funk grooves - root minor pents and blues licks all the way - i'd love to be able to play some really hip lines like our sax player does (i always try to solo first if i can, cos if i go second, it's like - bleurgh! pentatonics! and if the keyboard player takes one, then that's it...no chance mate! )

i'm going to make it my mission to practice Countdown changes and i'll post a clip when i think i've got it together.

any other cool sequences that sound hip over one chord vamps that i could try?

:)

sim

[jzucker]

Originally posted by simeon
i'm locked into a bit of a rut when it comes to playing over funk grooves - root minor pents and blues licks all the way - i'd love to be able to play some really hip lines like our sax player does (i always try to solo first if i can, cos if i go second, it's like - bleurgh! pentatonics! and if the keyboard player takes one, then that's it...no chance mate! )

i'm going to make it my mission to practice Countdown changes and i'll post a clip when i think i've got it together.

any other cool sequences that sound hip over one chord vamps that i could try?

:)

sim

I like the way Metheny does his sequencing. He'll take a lick like (cmin) G Eb D C (descending and pulling off from the Eb to the D) and he'll move it up in whole steps or even 1/2 whole (diminished scale).

Those are cool to use.

Another chordal sequence;

Take a lick that comes from the diminished scale and move it up and down the neck in whole steps or take an augmented lick and move it up and down in minor 3rds.

Use the diminished or whole tone scale for root movement and apply different upper structures.

A real simple one is:

Dm7 Ebm7 Fm7 Gbm7 Abm7 Am7 Bm7 Cm7

Or

Dm7 Em7 F#m7 G#m7 A#m7 Cm7

Practice playing over those progressions both staying in a single position as well as moving the lick up vertically up the neck.

Another interesting one is maj thirds.

Dm7 Bbm7 Gbm7 Dm7

[simeon]

cool - thanks jack

i guess i should dig out your book and do some woodshedding, eh!

:D


sim

[simeon]

one quick question....

in this sequence....

: Dm7 Eb7 Abmaj7 B7 : Emaj7 G7 Cmaj7 :

is the Eb7 seen as the subV of Dm7 or the V of Abmaj7?

to my ears, it sounds like the subV of Dm7 and i've been using Eb lydian b7 over it - i tried using Eb altered, treating it as the V of Ab, but somehow it didn't sound so good.

can it be either, or is there an "accepted" way of treating this chord?

thanks!

sim

[jzucker]

Originally posted by simeon
one quick question....

in this sequence....

: Dm7 Eb7 Abmaj7 B7 : Emaj7 G7 Cmaj7 :

is the Eb7 seen as the subV of Dm7 or the V of Abmaj7?

to my ears, it sounds like the subV of Dm7 and i've been using Eb lydian b7 over it - i tried using Eb altered, treating it as the V of Ab, but somehow it didn't sound so good.

can it be either, or is there an "accepted" way of treating this chord?

thanks!

sim

Those are Countdown changes...

I can be either/or. The one guideline I tell my students is that when the 7th chord resolves up a 4th you can treat it as an altered chord (super locrian) otherwise, treat it as a 13#11 (lydian b7). However, rules are meant to be broken. Those are only guidelines. Note that Coltrane (one of the pioneers of altered dominant chords) tended to use very diatonic lines over the 7th chords in that progression. I have the feeling that at the tempo he recorded it at and given the amount of time he had to work with it, he gave it a simpler treatment.

Typically though, virtually every treatment of the that tune, folks play an unaltered dom7 chord when the 7th chord is 1/2 up from the min7 chord. I'm not sure why that it but I think because of the nature of the progression itself, if you move in a 1/2 step motion and then on top of that use alterations in the chord, it becomes too dense.

Additionally, the more alterations you heap on the Eb7, the more it sounds like an A7 chord which then becomes rather pedestrian...

[simeon]

smashing - thanks jack!

sim

[KRosser]

If you're going to play outside, just remember, you need a long extension chord and a sweater if it's chilly....

but seriously folks, I'll be here all week....

[aram]

This is outside.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PbeoZ9UqEts

[Mike T]

The concept of using the diatonic chords from the key signiture of the substitute dominant had lights flashing in my mind like cops at a 6 car pileup..... lead me right to ordering "Sheets of Sound".....

[Tag]

[QUOTE]
playing "outside" does not involve chucking a bunch of random notes into a solo that aren't in key - try it - it sounds pretty crap!

playing "outside" can be described as actually playing inside a different key to the one that the rhythm section is playing, or using some identifiable "logic". this "insideness" is what gives the outside section of the solo musical sense.
so to play successfully "outside", you need to be able to play successfully "inside" - which means practicing over changes and being able to analyse chord/scale relationships so that you can use scales appropriate to the chords that you're playing over.



Totally agree. Thats why the best inside players are the best outside players, and vice versa. All the bop and hard bop players are masters at it. Stitt, Wes, Trane, Benson, Jones, Byrd, Miles, Brown, Moody and on and on. Just study the great jazz masters. Its all there.
Great post!
:BEER

[gennation]

Those are Countdown changes...

I can be either/or. The one guideline I tell my students is that when the 7th chord resolves up a 4th you can treat it as an altered chord (super locrian) otherwise, treat it as a 13#11 (lydian b7).

Also, include in there when the dom7 chord acts as the I7 chord. That's where the glorious Mixolydian finally comes into play for a lot of people :)

[Tom Gross]

I look at it this way:
There are several things you can change about what you play - note selection (key), rhythm/phrasing, volume/dynamics/intensity.
If you alter one and keep the other things deeply in, it works.

Kinda like how in science fiction one thing is totally unrealistic and the rest of it is based on strict realism.

[Tag]

If you're going to play outside, just remember, you need a long extension chord and a sweater if it's chilly....

but seriously folks, I'll be here all week....


:p:p:p

[cameron]

many of these "outside" (urgh) discussions:


I'm not much enamored of that metaphor myself.

While I realize it's still just the same metaphor, I do think it sounds classier if you refer to it as playing "al fresco".

There's a long tradition of using Italian for musical terms . . .

[Soundhound]

Here's my problem. (ok, one of many). I don't know how to play over those changes. how do I learn how to do that? Big, dumb question, I know. But one of these days I'm gonna have to learn, so...:eek:

Do I play out of arpegios on top of each chord? Use pentatonics where appropriate? Find the common tones between the chords and use those? I've got all these concepts for doing this stuff in my head, but can't figure out how to put it together into coherent playing...I wind up going back to freaking minor pents and it drives me nuts!!

the band is grooving on an Am chord, so instead of just playing A Dorian, you can pretend that the band is actually playing Am and then playing C7b9 / F#7#9 / Bm7b5 / E7#9 - you play those changes, but the band just plays Am for those four bars. your lines are "outside" Am, but follow a common III VI II V jazz chord sequence - a very strong sound that the listener can follow and that makes musical sense.
a simpler example would be to imply Valt / Im / Valt / Im etc, so play E7alt licks for one bar followed by Am licks for one bar

[KRosser]

i can make sense of this, for sure.
otoh,
there's at least one key element that seems,
strangely (for tgp),
missing from
many of these "outside" (urgh) discussions:
phrasing rhythmics, tone, tuning
& sound.....
..... and, our playing of them.

they relate, i should think,
more directly not to harmonic analyses and/or
minimising maths,
but to the musical context of feeling.

what are we "outside-of",
if this "outside" is truly capable
of intellectual delineation?

music is science only in part, i think;
approached solely for its scientifically analysable factors
--- regardless of the contextual method or specific perspective employed ---
might be seen (by me, at least)
as alienatingly reductive, at best,
of the meaning of music.

{pardon my meandering, please!
i'm struggling w/a piece of music, right now.}

dt / spltrcl

Personally, I hate the term 'outside' and try to never use it...

(If I'm playing Cmaj7 and you superimpose an Db over it melodically, it's not 'outside' to me, it's now just a different harmony other than vanilla Cmaj7)

But yeah, these threads come up a lot, and I think a lot of the sentiment is cool, as is a lot of the muso-intellectual dust being kicked up - all good as far as I'm concerned.

But - deciding on a cool substitution is not enough. You still have to make up something that's musically compelling with it. And that's basically what we're doing when we're improvising, right? Making shit up, on the spot, based on a fluid set of circumstances?

One thing I kinda object to in the tone of the way these discussions typically turn - there seems to be a tacet assumption that a musical idea based on a harmonic substitution is intrinsically more compelling that one based diatonically. I strenuously object to this idea, personally, because it's putting the analytical before the visceral - and I can be the biggest analytical geek you'd ever want to meet but it's no match for my viscera in terms of really driving a musical point "home" and making a lasting impression.

And it's putting the analytical before the creative - leave the substitutions out for a minute - how do you make a melody out of a C major scale over a C major chord that'll get stuck in your head for days or raise the hairs on your arm, as an improvisor or a composer? It can be done - I've heard too many people do it to believe otherwise.

(Nor, FWIW, would I be less bothered by the facile extreme on the other side - 'simpler' is somehow harder or more meaningful, for the same reasons...it's blanket generalizations of any kind about what should sound good without taking into account the actual music, the actual players and the actual audience that I find tedious)

And, it's too 'individual-based', for my taste, as a broader way of looking at things...where does the collective dynamic come into all of this?

[aram]

so much of what is "inside" or "outside" has to do with our cultural and social upbringing.

when my teacher was in nigeria, he was asked to compose the music for a play.

during a funeral scene, he wrote a chorus that was minor because as we all know, minor has a connotation of sadness.

During the rehearsals, the people in the chorus kept on changind the chord to a quartal harmony.

he would stop, replay the minor notes, but still they would sing quartal.

Because in this particular region of Nigeria, sadness was associated with a quartal sound.

many of the African musicians I play with have a very different sense of form.

You can say "let's play the 16 bar A section three times, then we'll go to the B"

Inevitably, that doesn't happen. And yet to me their sense of rhythm and melody is very "outside" from my cultural and social understanding.

It is the quest and desire to hear how they hear that will bring you to a greater understanding of music and in the broader, and (imho) much more important sense, life.

I love playing Christmas carols in June and July. The reaction people have to those sounds being "outside" during that time of year never fails to cause wonder and amusement inside my funny little head.

[KRosser]

so much of what is "inside" or "outside" has to do with our cultural and social upbringing.

when my teacher was in nigeria, he was asked to compose the music for a play.

during a funeral scene, he wrote a chorus that was minor because as we all know, minor has a connotation of sadness.

During the rehearsals, the people in the chorus kept on changind the chord to a quartal harmony.

he would stop, replay the minor notes, but still they would sing quartal.

Because in this particular region of Nigeria, sadness was associated with a quartal sound.

many of the African musicians I play with have a very different sense of form.

You can say "let's play the 16 bar A section three times, then we'll go to the B"

Inevitably, that doesn't happen. And yet to me their sense of rhythm and melody is very "outside" from my cultural and social understanding.

It is the quest and desire to hear how they hear that will bring you to a greater understanding of music and in the broader, and (imho) much more important sense, life.

I love playing Christmas carols in June and July. The reaction people have to those sounds being "outside" during that time of year never fails to cause wonder and amusement inside my funny little head.

I've spent the last ten years playing with musicians from Guinea & Mali, and man I can tell you that was a real exercise in patience, humility and perspective on my end at first.

[buddastrat]

Damn, I spend my whole time since beginning learning to play in key and now I have to learn to play out of key again! I should'a just stayed put!

[simeon]

Here's my problem. (ok, one of many). I don't know how to play over those changes. how do I learn how to do that? Big, dumb question, I know. But one of these days I'm gonna have to learn, so...:eek:

Do I play out of arpegios on top of each chord? Use pentatonics where appropriate? Find the common tones between the chords and use those? I've got all these concepts for doing this stuff in my head, but can't figure out how to put it together into coherent playing...I wind up going back to freaking minor pents and it drives me nuts!!

well you could start by using arps of each chord (as an excercise) - go up one arp then down the next and find nice ways to link them together...but that'll get pretty boring after a while, so you can take it a step further and go up the arp for the first chord, then down the scale appropriate to the next chord, then up the arp, down the scale etc etc.... you could find pentatonics appropriate for each chord (for altered dominants, the minor pent up a minor third works well).... you could find the common tones and use them as pivot points as you travel from one tonality to the next.... the idea eventually is obviously to create something musically coherent by employing all of the above and whatever else you can come up with so that you play from the heart without thinking about it...but try to come up with various ways of getting through it, so that you can start to hear the changes in your head and the tonalities associated with each chord. as you develop your ideas and your ears, you'll be less bothered about the actual theory (and the notes!). also...try and find this sequence (and others) in your favourite jazz recordings and transcribe what the soloist is doing, so you can learn from them. i'm sure others here will have plenty of good advice for you too...

hope that helps

sim

[KRosser]

well you could start by using arps of each chord (as an excercise) - go up one arp then down the next and find nice ways to link them together...but that'll get pretty boring after a while, so you can take it a step further and go up the arp for the first chord, then down the scale appropriate to the next chord, then up the arp, down the scale etc etc.... you could find pentatonics appropriate for each chord (for altered dominants, the minor pent up a minor third works well).... you could find the common tones and use them as pivot points as you travel from one tonality to the next.... the idea eventually is obviously to create something musically coherent by employing all of the above and whatever else you can come up with so that you play from the heart without thinking about it...but try to come up with various ways of getting through it, so that you can start to hear the changes in your head and the tonalities associated with each chord. as you develop your ideas and your ears, you'll be less bothered about the actual theory (and the notes!). also...try and find this sequence (and others) in your favourite jazz recordings and transcribe what the soloist is doing, so you can learn from them. i'm sure others here will have plenty of good advice for you too...

hope that helps

sim

While I agree all of this above is a good set of ideas to work with to hone the craft, if you find the basic concept to be a little elusive, start simpler -

Learn the melodies to songs that go over those same chord progressions, play them all over the neck in as many fingerings, positions & octaves that you can think of. You'll learn a lot about the layout of the guitar neck, melodically, you'll get to exercise a little creativity in terms of how you look at fingering, and you'll be getting those sounds in your ear at the same time (especially if you can do this along with the accompaniment).

[KRosser]

Damn, I spend my whole time since beginning learning to play in key and now I have to learn to play out of key again! I should'a just stayed put!

Nah, you shoulda just worried about music and let the 'in key' & 'outta key' folks keep arguing

[Soundhound]

Thanks KRosser and Simeon. I have been learning a bunch of songs (Autumn Leaves, Sugar, Giant Steps, Blues for Alice, etc.) and I'm starting to work out chord melodies for them. Working on learning arps all over the neck. It's the putting stuff together into coherent melodies when improvising that's proving elusive. A lot of the problem (aside from a lack of talent and brains!) is that I don't have the time to work at it as much as I want to. My teacher is REALLY patient...

I like the idea of just taking some chord sequences and trying to play arps up and down through them, and lacing in scales and pents etc. Is there a list of changes that would be good to work on this with? (I have a little R2 boss looper that I could do this with). Maybe there's a good resource for this online? Like a good list that would give me practice/build up a vocabulary over some of the kinds of changes you tend to find in tunes.

thanks again. sorry to derail this otherwise really interesting/informative thread!!

[simeon]

I like the idea of just taking some chord sequences and trying to play arps up and down through them

this is good practice for sure, but is quite a "horizontal" approach - also try a more "vertical" approach where you play lines that go through the chords. for example, set up a loop where you have a Gm chord changing to a Bbm chord - one bar of each. then start on the note G and work your way up the neck - play one note per beat (start slow) - so you'd play G A Bb C, then the chord changes to Bb, so use the Bb dorian scale over it and keep going...moving to the next available note, so you'd play Db Eb F G. then you'd play A Bb C D over the Gm and so on. keep strict time!
once you're comfortable doing this, you can start changing direction every few bars...and then more often. you can also try to stay in one "position" on the neck, rather then moving along. never play Gm licks in the 3rd position and Bbm licks in the 6th position where you find the minor pents - this excercise is to try and break out of that idea.

hope that gives you some ideas!

sim

ps - this idea is basically lifted from Scott Henderson's excellent video tutorial called Melodic Phrasing - well worth a look if you can find it!

[Bloozman]

Being a Blues player,and being stuck in "Pentatonic Prison" I thought "playing outside" meant in an open air environment...

:rotflmao

[Mike T]

Here's my problem. (ok, one of many). I don't know how to play over those changes. how do I learn how to do that? Big, dumb question, I know. But one of these days I'm gonna have to learn, so...:eek:

Do I play out of arpegios on top of each chord? Use pentatonics where appropriate? Find the common tones between the chords and use those? I've got all these concepts for doing this stuff in my head, but can't figure out how to put it together into coherent playing...I wind up going back to freaking minor pents and it drives me nuts!!

Try going through the changes using even half notes or quarter notes. If pentatonics are driving you nuts, figure out the scales that work and try to move step wise or as close as possible at a tempo you can handle.

P.S. Simeon....did you mean horizontal by verticle and vica versa? I think of horizontal being the long way, first fret to 22nd and verticle as being in position. Small point, but it confused me at first. Pat Martino calls it North South East and West horizontal being east-west and verticle being north-south.

[simeon]

P.S. Simeon....did you mean horizontal by verticle and vica versa? I think of horizontal being the long way, first fret to 22nd and verticle as being in position.

i was lying down when i posted that, so yeah...probably...!

:)

[GovernorSilver]

Thanks KRosser and Simeon. I have been learning a bunch of songs (Autumn Leaves, Sugar, Giant Steps, Blues for Alice, etc.) and I'm starting to work out chord melodies for them. Working on learning arps all over the neck. It's the putting stuff together into coherent melodies when improvising that's proving elusive. A lot of the problem (aside from a lack of talent and brains!) is that I don't have the time to work at it as much as I want to. My teacher is REALLY patient...


If you are pressed for time, then just follow KRosser's advice here and drop the arp stuff for now:


Learn the melodies to songs that go over those same chord progressions, play them all over the neck in as many fingerings, positions & octaves that you can think of. You'll learn a lot about the layout of the guitar neck, melodically, you'll get to exercise a little creativity in terms of how you look at fingering, and you'll be getting those sounds in your ear at the same time (especially if you can do this along with the accompaniment).

And start making up new little melodies based on the melodies of the songs in your head, then playing them on the guitar. The more you do this, and the more jazz you listen to, the easier this will get - at least in my limited experience.

[abergdahl]

Sorry but I'm sort of confused about "out" playing, it requires a clear view of whats "in". I think most persons use out when they refer to colorings or tones THEY are not used to hearing in a specific context.
I think the "best" way to achieve this is to be able to play what you hear, first you need to HEAR it but then "out" would probably sound "in" to you .
I have started to try to play a tone or a chord then hear what fits after, not at all thinking of scales, modes, arpeggios just try to hear what fits and try to find it on the guitar. Quite often I find something not quite what i was after so I reshape to get closer and at the same time alter my mind, sort of, and hear something new.
These practice sessions are very meditative makes me feel one with the "music". At the same time it probably would sound VERY out to anyone listening. Quite often the fingers form shapes that i have no idea at all what it is from a theoretical point of view so i can't really explain what I'm doing. The next step for me is to play with the same objective and state of mind over a loop or backing where the chords/tones/rhythms played will influence where I'm going what I'm playing or not. I guess this a form of free improvisation.
Now is there anybody else doing/has done a similar thing?
What did it result in?
Is there really any drawback to not having a theoretical ground for everything, is it not the end result that is important?
I like to point out that sometimes this approach leads my in to making "sounds" rather than chords and lines of notes, string scratching, rhythmic beating, feedback.

[Mike T]

i was lying down when i posted that, so yeah...probably...!

:)

BTW Simeon....this is a GREAT thread, man and your initial post was awesome! :AOK

[simeon]

thanks mike!

(lovely tone on your clips, btw)

[Mike T]

thanks mike!

(lovely tone on your clips, btw)

Thanks for checking my stuff out Simeon! Glad you like the tone..."Chill Kitty" was all studio, guitar is a Champ I rebuilt to BF Princeton (6G2) specs with ss rect and cathode bias, and rhythm section for "What It Is" was cut in the studio and I did the guitar in my living room directly to Pro Tools through a Vox modeling amp. Both are with my Tele with Bardens.

... can't listen to yours where I am now but I'll check it out as soon as I get a chance. Nice web site though!