How do hollow chambers affect tone?

[Randy]

I've been struggling with this for a while and could use some insight.

I play mainly high gain rock so you would think a solidbody would be my weapon of choice, and tone-wise it is. But I happen to love the resonance that comes from a semi-hollowbody. The body's reactive vibration is addictive and the way notes seem to sag and then bloom with air-space around them really inspires me - it's a feel thing, almost like adding a tube rectifier to an amp.

So I'm looking for that very alive and open resonant feel, but with a strong low-mid emphasis and a warm, round top end (pretty much like an LP I'd say).

So far I've had (2) 335 style guitars. Both of which gave me the feel I wanted, but the tone I was looking for just wasn't there. They were too upper-mid nasally with a bright, plinky high end. They were also a bit loose and muddy in the bottom end, but that lack of tightness I expected as a trade off.

Then I tried a Hamer artist which is also semi-hollow with 1 F hole. This guitar proved tighter, but not as resonant and still bright and plinky on the high end.

In addition to the semi-hollow design, the things all three of these guitars have in common were - low gain PAF pickups (Seth lovers and Fralins), Maple tops, F holes.

So without going broke trying every possible design out there, what will get me closer to what I'm looking for? I'm thinking of trying a hollow chambered guitar, no F holes with higher output (warmer pickups). Should I try to skip the maple top too? How do I get a guitar to emphasize low mids instead of upper mids in a semi-hollow design?

Something like this with a solid top?

http://www.warmoth.com/Guitar/Bodies/images/tele_thinline_top3.jpg

Is a bigger body size better for my ap?

[THebert]

My experience with this comes from the semi-hollow PRS guitars. To me, the mids are less pronounced in the semi hollow. Not a huge difference, mind you, it is the kind of thing that you could consistently notice, but you had to pay attention.

[Lance]

I think somebody needs a Soloway. No, I don't have one, but I will. He's a member here, but check out his website for some info.

http://www.solowayguitars.com/

[TDJMB]

I think you need to work closely with a great luthier who knows how to combine woods and body styles and electronics to get you what you need. Go to the Montreal Guitar Show and try everything on the floor. Or see if you can go visit Cliff at Destroy All Guitars. After all the talking and theorizing, nothing works as well or as quickly as picking them up & playing them.

[clint]

Sounds like you are after the tone of a solidbody and the feel of a hollowbody. If you get a chance, check out a Gibson CS-336/356. They're not as solid as a Les Paul but not as flabby as an ES, either.

[Jahn]

Sounds like you are after the tone of a solidbody and the feel of a hollowbody. If you get a chance, check out a Gibson CS-336/356. They're not as solid as a Les Paul but not as flabby as an ES, either.

that's exactly it, ES-335 have a bit too much flab for me. it's a shame because i love the size/shape/everything but the inherent tone, which is of course the dealbreaker.

the smaller semi-hollowbody size like the ES-336/9 might be right up your alley. my Artinger Blondie Jr. is that smaller semi size and it's tight and punchy but still lets more air in for its bucker than a solid LP would. great choice (and no, not a compromise).

[daddyo]

You have to be careful. Not every wood combination works. I built a chambered swamp ash Tele, no F holes, with a 1/4" spruce top and maple neck, Jerry Donahue bridge pup and alnico II Tele neck pup. On paper it looked like it should have been like a cross between an ES 335 and a tele but it turned out that it sounded exactly like a Tele on the high strings but really woofy and muddy on the low notes especially as volume increase. But it wasn't feedback. It was a beautiful guitar that played great but I ended up taking the neck and sticking it on a solid swamp ash body.

[TooManyHobbies]

http://www.warmoth.com/Guitar/Bodies/images/tele_thinline_top3.jpg



I've built pretty much this exact guitar.. except neck through body. Same upper chamber shape, the rear of mine is the shape of a LP though. The lower bout is half rear routed controls, so only the horn has a chamber on the bottom half. The guitar is amazingly resonant and sounds great. It is as loud or louder than my true semi-hollow bodies.

I used a Carvin neck through rock maple neck with ebony board, mahogany wings which were attached with dowels for rigidity, and a maple cap. Guitar also has a 2tek bridge.

I was in highschool at the time, and did it as a project, so I was able to get the help/advice of many builders at the time. Most concured (including PRS) that varying the depth and size of the chamber can/will focus the frequency response it enhances. Supposedly larger, deeper chambers will affect lower frequencies more.

I went for two things.. overall rigidity and resonance. It worked out quite well.

[gkelm]

I recently picked up a used 2000 Baker Jr semi-hollow (on a whim, in a trade), and I am head-over-heels with the tone and feel of the guitar.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k293/gkelm/p1013697cc4.jpg

I've had a couple recent 335s, as well as a Hamer studio semi, Rics, etc...but none of them did it for me. This Baker has a fat, articulate tone...and to top it off, Gene Baker is a first class guy when it comes helping Baker owners. I should probaly keep my mouth shut and buy all the used ones that come up myself. :)

I also think the PRS & ES-339 suggestions are worth a look...and others that don't seemto come to mind right now.

All the best.
Greg

[amc]

I recently picked up a used 2000 Baker Jr semi-hollow (on a whim, in a trade), and I am head-over-heels with the tone and feel of the guitar.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k293/gkelm/p1013697cc4.jpg

I've had a couple recent 335s, as well as a Hamer studio semi, Rics, etc...but none of them did it for me. This Baker has a fat, articulate tone...and to top it off, Gene Baker is a first class guy when it comes helping Baker owners. I should probaly keep my mouth shut and buy all the used ones that come up myself. :)

I also think the PRS & ES-339 suggestions are worth a look...and others that don't seemto come to mind right now.

All the best.
Greg

what a coincidence, I recently scored a Baker Jr semihollow as well
What a great guitar........
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q199/amc115-photos/BAKERJRHOLLOWdscf0199je2.jpg

[gkelm]

Nice one amc...love that finish! If it ever failed to wow you, let me know.

Now back to a guitar for Randy! :)

[Bryan T]

Something like this with a solid top?

http://www.warmoth.com/Guitar/Bodies/images/tele_thinline_top3.jpg

Is a bigger body size better for my ap?

I've had a few G&L ASAT guitars with that sort of chambering. Compared to a solid-body of the same model, I hear the biggest change in the midrange. Chambering scoops the mids.

Bryan

[Structo]

My personal opinion is on a chambered solid body, it is more of a weight reduction method more than a tone shaping design.

Yes some will say the mids are affected but I wonder if you would be able to tell in a blind test, the difference between a solid strat and a chambered strat with both having the same hardware and electronics.
Sure there will be differences between any two apparently identical guitars, that's why we play a rack full of them before we settle on
one.

I also want to add that there is a big difference between a semi hollow body and a chambered body. They are two different animals.

I just wouldn't put much stock in buying a chambered body purely in hope of a tone shift.
IMHO
YMMV

[Jim Soloway]

I just wouldn't put much stock in buying a chambered body purely in hope of a tone shift.
IMHO
YMMV

I would. We've built about 185 guitars. Five were solid, the rest were chambered. The solids sounded dramatically different than the rest. I preferred the sound of the chambered bodies so we stopped making the solid bodies.

[abergdahl]

Chambering DOES make a difference, at least when it's done fore tonal reasons. I'm sure one could chamber a guitar so that i sounds like solid guitar but with lighter woods. But most chambering is done to get a different tone and feel than you get from a solid guitar. Chambers adds some air and compression to the tone. BUT the effects of the chambering varies greatly depending on the type of chambering and the builders objective (if the builder is skilled enough to chamber for an intended result).
I saw a video on David Mykas site that could give som insite into the topic, and many builders here can go into depth on different variations of chambering, they are to many to mention.....

[Randy]

Some great ideas here - thanks guys!

[dobro man]

339's are a good bet.

[Zilmo]

I would. We've built about 185 guitars. Five were solid, the rest were chambered. The solids sounded dramatically different than the rest. I preferred the sound of the chambered bodies so we stopped making the solid bodies.


Thanks for that Jim.

[blhm84]

Anytime people talk semi hollows, I try and points them towards the Ibanez John Scofield Signature. A little pricey for a foreign made guitar but its a gem.

[Randy]

Well, if anyones interested, I am going to try another semi-hollow, a la da 335. This one is completely chambered - so the middle 'block' is the mahogany that's left over after they mill out the body, instead of a maple block that is glued in. Also, the top is solid maple instead of a ply... Plus warmer, darker pickups... we'll see how it works out.

[phretbored]

Check out the Gibson Johnny A Signature model.
It's an amazing design.

[JBG]

I was building solid bodies for a while, then on a whim I tried some chambering and just absolutely loved it. It IS like putting a tube recitifier on your guitar... well, a great analogy at least. There's a certain presence you get with a chambered model that solidbodies can't do. I love both styles for distinct reasons.

Now, I think longer string lengths (like Mr. Soloway's) add a certain piano-esque character to it. I build a 25 1/2" scale, and that suits me just fine, too.

[SwirlCrazy]

Maybe take a look at the hamer talladega pro. Chambered single cut. It does use a Fender scale length, but that might help keep the low end intact for you.

[Dave Coke]

I've been struggling with this for a while and could use some insight.

I play mainly high gain rock so you would think a solidbody would be my weapon of choice, and tone-wise it is. But I happen to love the resonance that comes from a semi-hollowbody. The body's reactive vibration is addictive and the way notes seem to sag and then bloom with air-space around them really inspires me - it's a feel thing, almost like adding a tube rectifier to an amp.

So I'm looking for that very alive and open resonant feel, but with a strong low-mid emphasis and a warm, round top end (pretty much like an LP I'd say).

So far I've had (2) 335 style guitars. Both of which gave me the feel I wanted, but the tone I was looking for just wasn't there. They were too upper-mid nasally with a bright, plinky high end. They were also a bit loose and muddy in the bottom end, but that lack of tightness I expected as a trade off.

Then I tried a Hamer artist which is also semi-hollow with 1 F hole. This guitar proved tighter, but not as resonant and still bright and plinky on the high end.

In addition to the semi-hollow design, the things all three of these guitars have in common were - low gain PAF pickups (Seth lovers and Fralins), Maple tops, F holes.

So without going broke trying every possible design out there, what will get me closer to what I'm looking for? I'm thinking of trying a hollow chambered guitar, no F holes with higher output (warmer pickups). Should I try to skip the maple top too? How do I get a guitar to emphasize low mids instead of upper mids in a semi-hollow design?

Something like this with a solid top?

http://www.warmoth.com/Guitar/Bodies/images/tele_thinline_top3.jpg

Is a bigger body size better for my ap?

I like your description of the interactive feel you get from a semi-hollow. Of course there are many different types of semi-hollow guitars and the actual design, materials and construction make a big difference in the character you get. 335's have relatively thin tops that span a larger area, and in that kind of design, those maple tops become a big part of the sound and the resonating air in the chamber plays a much larger role.

In thicker, smaller designs (like the thinline-style pic you posted), the vibrating air has less effect, and you generally have a tighter sounding guitar. Leaving out the f-holes makes a difference, too. Here the geometry of the wood and the wood characteristics have more influence, and the tone and interaction you get comes more from the wood resonance and less from the air resonance.

If you're looking for more of an LP flavor, then maple over mahogany is still a great combo to try (though not the only choice). The mahogany provides a big part of that lower-mid sound you're talking about and the maple just adds some clear higher-end voicing over the top of it.

And then, like you mention, finding the right pickps to match the guitar is part of it too. You can adjust the sound quite a bit just from pickup selection. Or if you're building custom and you're really sold on a particular pickup ahead of time, you might even choose a different wood combo to try to make the most of that pickup's characteristics.

[Joe Naylor]

the effects of the chambering varies greatly depending on the type of chambering and the builders objective (if the builder is skilled enough to chamber for an intended result)... and many builders here can go into depth on different variations of chambering, they are to many to mention...

So true. Chambering results can vary from simple weight reduction to major tonal shift. So you'll have to do some homework.

But, I'd lean towards a predominantly mahogany body if you want to retain lower mids.

[Randy]

So true. Chambering results can vary from simple weight reduction to major tonal shift. So you'll have to do some homework.

But, I'd lean towards a predominantly mahogany body if you want to retain lower mids.


Thanks Joe - does this include a mahogany top instead of the maple you usually see?

I've also been told that the laminate / ply construction of ES types can be brighter then a single lam top. Not sure if that's true or not...

[Randy]

I like your description of the interactive feel you get from a semi-hollow. Of course there are many different types of semi-hollow guitars and the actual design, materials and construction make a big difference in the character you get. 335's have relatively thin tops that span a larger area, and in that kind of design, those maple tops become a big part of the sound and the resonating air in the chamber plays a much larger role.

In thicker, smaller designs (like the thinline-style pic you posted), the vibrating air has less effect, and you generally have a tighter sounding guitar. Leaving out the f-holes makes a difference, too. Here the geometry of the wood and the wood characteristics have more influence, and the tone and interaction you get comes more from the wood resonance and less from the air resonance.

If you're looking for more of an LP flavor, then maple over mahogany is still a great combo to try (though not the only choice). The mahogany provides a big part of that lower-mid sound you're talking about and the maple just adds some clear higher-end voicing over the top of it.

And then, like you mention, finding the right pickps to match the guitar is part of it too. You can adjust the sound quite a bit just from pickup selection. Or if you're building custom and you're really sold on a particular pickup ahead of time, you might even choose a different wood combo to try to make the most of that pickup's characteristics.

Thanks for the info - some very interesting designs on your site!

[Jim Soloway]

Thanks Joe - does this include a mahogany top instead of the maple you usually see?

I've also been told that the laminate / ply construction of ES types can be brighter then a single lam top. Not sure if that's true or not...

It depends on what wood is used for the lam top. In a really interactive design, different tops can produce tones ranging anywhere from dark and mellow to bright and thin.