need some help!

[palsi]

I need to sort of preface this question/plea for help before getting into it, because it might make it easier for someone to help explain to me. So I'm coming up 2.5 years into playing guitar, and have progressed fast. Before this, for awhile I was a concert clarinetist and jazz clarinetist. To be honest, I was so young that I didn't truly understand what I was doing, I would just read the music and play it correctly. I quit to pursue and focus on sports, and now that my knee is no longer letting me pursue that in college, I've picked up a guitar.

So with that said, I "get" music, but don't really understand theory. and since I played a lot of jazz when I was younger I'm mainly an improvisation kind of guy.

I've played with a lot of bands and stuff around and have even gone on tour as a tech for my brother and his band and they let me come out and play some rhythm and stuff, but I want to be able to start shredding.

So here's where my questions come:
Playing in the same key, do you think it's important to switch up your scale based on the chord being played? Or just sticking to your standard Key of A i'm gonna play major minor pentatonic / blues with some harmonic minor and stuff thrown in?


And also, since i've put my life story out there and you can tell that i was basically a medium through which music passed (aka a kid whos teachers and parents taught him to play the note and not worry why i'm playing that note), help me understand the modes to be able to play them over the changes?

I play a lot of indie and alt-country and rock, but I'm VERY influenced by the blues, countryesque people like david rawlings and pettibone, and tons of all the guitarists you guys know.

I honestly thank you ahead of time. I know you get the "I DONT GET THE MODES!!!!!" post a lot, and i've read alot of those posts, and still dont get it. Help a brother out!:horse

Thanks.

[stevel]

Playing in the same key, do you think it's important to switch up your scale based on the chord being played? Or just sticking to your standard Key of A i'm gonna play major minor pentatonic / blues with some harmonic minor and stuff thrown in?Depends. In some styles, you do want to change the scale with the chord. In others, you don't. In three chord rock, you would pretty much play an A major scale, or A major pentatonic in the key of A Major. But in a Blues in A, you may play A pentatonic Major over the I chord, and A pentatonic MINOR over the IV chord (or you could play the A blues scale, and D blues scale respectively). In Jazz improv, you're likely to use even more modal and scalar resources in a chord-scale relationship


And also, since i've put my life story out there and you can tell that i was basically a medium through which music passed (aka a kid whos teachers and parents taught him to play the note and not worry why i'm playing that note), help me understand the modes to be able to play them over the changes?Another post.

You don't have to play modes over changes, but you can play modes over changes. You can also play modes over "non-jazz" chord progressions as well as modal melodies.

I play a lot of indie and alt-country and rock, but I'm VERY influenced by the blues, countryesque people like david rawlings and pettibone, and tons of all the guitarists you guys know.

I honestly thank you ahead of time. I know you get the "I DONT GET THE MODES!!!!!" post a lot, and i've read alot of those posts, and still dont get it. Help a brother out!

I think we first need to ascertain how much you do know about modes.

Are you really starting from "I know nothing about the modes" or can you narrow down this rather broad topic into some more specific questions we can answer?

Best,
Steve

[stevel]

I know you get the "I DONT GET THE MODES!!!!!" post a lot, and i've read alot of those posts, and still dont get it. Help a brother out!:horse

Thanks.

7 Modes.

The best way to think of them is as 7 distinct collections of half and whole steps between 7 notes.

A B C D E F G

The half steps are between B and C, and E and F, which puts them between scale degrees 2 and 3, and 5 and 6.

Each of the 7 modes has a unique position for the half steps. It so happens, if we use the plain letters (no sharps or flats), the half steps are always between B and C, and E and F, so if we simply take a set of 7 notes, each set starting on the next note, the position of the half steps will move forward in relation to the starting note:

A B^C D E^F G Aeolian (m)
B^C D E^F G A Locrian (m w/b2 and b5)
C D E^F G A B^C Ionian (M)
D E^F G A B^C Dorian (m w/#6)
E^F G A B^C D Phrygian (m w/b2)
F G A B^C D E^F Lydian (M w/#4)
G A B^C D E^F Mixolydian (M w/b7)

Most of us work from Major, so we consider Ionian the "base" mode from which the the other "rotations" are formed. If you look above you'll see that D Dorian has the same notes as C Ionian (C Major) with two important distinctions: 1. it starts on D, promoting D as the most important note (the Tonic, or Final in modal terminology) and 2. this puts the half steps between 3 and 4, and 6 and 7.

Note that D Dorian is a whole step above C Ionian (C Major). So if you wanted to find F Dorian, you'd have to find a key that is a whole step *below* F - in this case Eb - so Eb Major's (Eb Ionian) 2nd mode (or 2nd rotation if you like) gives you F Dorian.

An easier (and more practical) way to do this is to notice that Dorian is "like a minor scale, but with a raised 6" - which is what my notation of (m w/#6) means.

So if you want G Dorian, rather than trying to find out a whole step below, or, find out what key G is a whole step above, you simply write out or play G minor, and raise the 6th note of the scale 1 half step:

G A Bb C D Eb F G is G minor
G A Bb C D E F G is G Dorian

Notice that the notes of G Dorian are the same as F Ionian - that's the key (F Major) that G is the 2nd of!

Now, what you play depends on a lot of things. Traditionally, when using a Major key, you not only use the Major scale for your melodies, but your harmonies are also typcially derived from the notes of the key.

In C Major, you have the chords:
C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bo

These are built using notes from the key (if you don't understand this, you need to go back and understand this.

[side note, the modes above that are "major" - C, F and G are also major chords, and the modes that are "minor" - Am, Dm, and Em are also minor chords based in this key! The Locrian is the odd man out, and makes a diminished chord (and the Locrian mode has a diminished 5th in it)]

If you have some chords in a song, let's say "Louie Louie" by the Kingsmen, the chords are:

A - D - em - D throughout.

em is "wrong" - it should be E major (again, if you don't understand why, you need to learn that first).

So this is not a major key. It is a modal key.

Em has the notes E-G-B, but A Major normally has G# in it.

That note is the 7th of the scale, and it's been lowered one half step. From the chart above, you see that Mixolydian is the one that's like Major, but with the 7th step lowered. In A, that would be:

A B C# D E F# G A.

Note that A-C#-E, D-F#-A, and E-G-B - the three chords of our song, can all be derived from the A Mixolydian mode - and in fact, all the notes are there - A B C# D E F# G and A.

So naturally, you could improvise over this (or write melodies for it, etc.) using the Mixolydian mode on A.

Now, this is not to say that the original insturmentalists used A mixolydian themselves to solo over the song. For example, in this instance, blue notes are also used making it a Blues Scale - and that's one of the difficulties in rock and pop - since there's such a huge blues influence in a lot of it, as well as blues-based jazz.

We used to play "What I Like About You" by the Romantics which uses
E - A - D - A throughout most of the song (so does "Rockin in the USA" by John Mellencamp, "On the Dark Side" from the Eddie and the Cruisers movie (different key though) and many similar songs like "G-L-O-R-I-A" (chords in different order) and "Dirty Water", etc.)

The harmonica solo uses E mixolydian (note that the D chord points to the lowered 7th of E major) - which many harmonica solos do because they use a method called "cross harp" which produces the Mixolydian mode from a Major Scale-based harp.

But I used to do this whole big burn with E mixolydian riffs - I even played the intro from "Spirit of Radio" by Rush (also in E mix) and did the little horn melody to"Low Rider" by War (originally in G, but hey, I'm soloing!).

So basically, in all of the above, what you're doing is basically treating a "mode" as if it were a key. It's the same as using the 7 chords (3M, 3m, 1o) for your Major scale, but the alterations of the mode make the chords different (in a predictable pattern). For example, in C Lydian, the Lydian mode (see above) is like Major, but with #4. In C, that's the F note. So C Lydian is:

C D E F# G A B

Not only is the scale affected, but any chords you derive from the scale that contain the F will also be altered. So instead of:

I ii iii IV V vi viio, you get:

I II iii #ivo V vi vii, or

CM, DM, em, F#o, GM, am, Bm

Notice that the D, F (F#) and B chords are all different from what they were in plain old C Major (but also note that there are still 3M, 3m, and 1o chord - they've just moved!).

Typically, when using a mode for a "whole" song (I used the word "globally" to describe this in another post) the songwriter chooses chords that include the note that makes the change from Major (or minor) most obvious. So in a C Lydian song, you'd be likely to find D or Bm chords since those are the ones that don't exist in C Major (and by the way, each of the 7 modes will have a unique set of possible chords, so no two modes of C are alike - also by the way, people tend to avoid the diminished chord - especially in rock/pop because it sounds "too classical" - it also is the one chord that identifies Major keys most clearly (since it's the only diminished chord in the key) and we don't want a key - we want a mode!!!).

Now, Jazz players use a "chord-scale" element. It's sort of a scale, based on a chord.

For example, is you have a G9 chord, you have the notes G B D F A. If you arrange them as a scale, you have G A B D F.

Now, G9 is a dominant chord, and appears naturally in the key of C Major. So, if you were going to to extend this G9 to a 13th chord, you'd use (though not necessarily play in your chord voicing) G B D F A C E. That's a G13.

if you arrange those in scalar order, you get:

G A B C D E F. This is G mixolydian. In fact, if you look back, you'll notice that C Majors 5th rotation is G mixolydian - these are the notes of C Major, starting on G.

So, over a G9 dominant chord, you could play G mix.

If you work out a Dm7 chord this way, you'll find that it makes sense to use D Dorian over the Dm7

Dm7 - G7 - C6

you'd play D Dorian over the Dm7, G Mix over the G7, and C Major over the C6 (other possibilities exist for all).

Now, the savvy person might note that wait - D Dorian and G Mix are really just modes of C Major (C Ionian), so aren't I just playing C Major over the whole thing?

Makes sense, after all, Dm7, G7, and C6 all come from C Major, and the progression definitely points to C Major - ii7-V7-I in C.

But even though you're playing "notes from C", you're *emphasizing* notes of the mode - usually in arpeggio form, with emphasis on those notes that are distinct from the major/minor scale, or that lead to the next chord, etc.

So while the Dm7 chord is going on, you probably don't want to play C D E F G F E D C or it will sound like you're simply playing a C Major scale over a Dm7 chord (could work in some context, but generally yucky).

But, if you play D F A D C B A F over the Dm7, you're going to get a much more "Dm7-y" sound, and in a sense, you're "using D Dorian" to get your notes.

Now, to be honest, in this particular example (which is pretty simple) what you're really doing is using the notes from the key of C Major, but emphasising the note of the ii7 chord in particular.

I personally don't think of that as "playing the Dorian Mode over the ii chord" but it certainly is useful to make that association because there may be instances in tunes where you get a bunch of ii-V cycles that continually move around, but don't really land on any one key that you can say "these notes come from X Major". So in that sense, it's more practical to see the chord as a "local" event, and you use the chord quality (M, m, dim, etc.) to determine which mode you'd play over it.

For example, in the key of C, Em7 usually calls for E Dorian to be played over it. Now, E Dorian is NOT C Major. But the reason is, you typically don't add a m9 extension to a m7 chord. So in C, your Em9 would typically be E-G-B-D-F#, rather than the F natural called for by the key of C Major.

So we often hear, in sort of a blanket statement, things like "use Dorian over m7 chords".

However, it's not as cut and dry as that unfortunately, and your best guide will be to start learning as many songs as possible, and see how improvisers treat these things.

You have to determine if a song is Tonal (major/minor) or Modal, and then, if it's either, do you need to treat individual chords or progressions on the local level as being Tonal or Modal as well.

Furthermore, the principle of Modal "rotations" has been applied to other sets of notes. Most of us use the word "modes" to refer to the classic 7 above, but there are also 7 modes of the Harmonic Minor scale, and 7 modes of the Melodic Minor scale (far more useful in jazz, though the middle of "Kashmir" by Led Zep uses a nice mode of harmonic minor to emphasise the middle-eastern/indian flair).

So the answer to "which mode do I use over which chord" can be a complex one depending on the context. It's somewhat clearer which mode to use when a song is globally modal. However, pop music often not only changes keys, but changes modes. You can have a verse in C major, and then the Chorus in F Mixolydian. So you have to know what to do in each particular instance.

Then you have Blues Scales and Pentatonic scales thrown in there too.

So unfortunately, everything comes on a case-by-case basis, and in many cases, there's more than one correct answer. There's no "secret" except that you need to learn as much as you can about all of them so you can learn what to apply, and what not to apply while you're playing.

HTH,
Steve

[NitroLPR9]

Do you really think Jimmy Page knew all this stuff? I mainly play by ear, I mean my brain has learned the sound of the notes, where their at on the fret board & the different technics used. It’s the same way I know how to pronounce words & change the tone of my voice. Or when you whistle, do you know the technical theory of whistling? or do you just whistle it? I guess I asking, is it important for me to learn this technical guitar theory?

[Kingpin]

Do you really think Jimmy Page knew all this stuff? I mainly play by ear, I mean my brain has learned the sound of the notes, where their at on the fret board & the different technics used. It’s the same way I know how to pronounce words & change the tone of my voice. Or when you whistle, do you know the technical theory of whistling? or do you just whistle it? I guess I asking, is it important for me to learn this technical guitar theory?


Well, to carry your word analogy further... When you learned to speak were you content to stop learning after learning a few words and grammar? "Me want food. Me sleepy... etc." Obviously, you saw the value of expanding your ability to communicate. Theory gives you a framework that make it easier to understand why things you play intuitively, work. It doesn't replace intuitive playing, or feel. It's just another path leading to being a better musician. And, I would wager that Jimmy Page probably knows a heck of a lot of theory.

I started playing guitar during the Jurassic Era when there was little instruction available and the Internet was just a glimmer in Al Gore's eye:confused:
I could have certainly learned at a faster rate if I had learned some theory rather than mostly by ear.