My '96 PRS Custom 22 needs a face lift and an attitude adjustment. Suggestions?

[G'OlPeachPhan]

I've got a BEAUTIFUL vintage yellow '96 custom 22 w/ a 10 top, birds, stop tail, dragon pickups, wide fat neck, ets.... it's a beautifully resonant and lightweight guitar, and it plays like no other PRS I've ever laid hands on. The problem? It doesn't sound near as good as my cheap Jay Turser ES-335 copy with Wagner Crossroads pickups in it, and for that reason I hardly ever play it any more.

Rather than sell the guitar (it has MUCH sentimental value to me for reasons I won't get into), it's time to modify the guitar to make it sing better... I've now had the guitar for 8 years, so we're to the point in our relationship where I'm not afraid to get out the soldering iron anymore (normally I save modifications for my cheap guitars). It's just a shame to leave such a beautiful axe hanging on the wall all the time... SO -

I've already got instructions on how to install the 3-way toggle, so no problem there... but I still need a pickup suggestion --

Since I've already got PAF style Wagner Crossroads in my 335 copy, I'm thinking it might be nice to go with something like the Harmonic Design Z-90's, or the TV Jones TV'Tron Classic or Plus. I'd like tone with chime, sparkle, detail, and openness.

Thanks for any suggestions.

[Ced777]

How does sound the Crossroads if you play "high gain" stuff (think hard rock of the early 90's)? I think to change the PUs on my Custom 22 for a pair or DarkBurst (close to the Crossroads)?

Ced777

[G'OlPeachPhan]

I have no idea... I don't own any amps I'd consider to be high gain. Certainly nothing that does a Mesa Recto or Peavey 5150 sound. That's not really my thing... my "highest gain" is a Keeley RAT through my Dr. Z Ghia, so I'm sorry, but I can't really be of too much help there.

The Fillmores are the hotter wound pickups that Wagner makes.

[Ced777]

I have some worries: Jim told me he makes only std spaced PU. But my PRS has a trem and the bridge slot is F-spaced. I don't know if yours (with hard tail) is F-spaced (52mm) or std spaced (48mm) and if you got trouble with the bridge PU concerning spacing.
I fear to order something from WCR ...

Ced777

[908SSP]

I have a custom 24 10 top violin burst beautiful to look at. Just don't care for the sound. The 5 way seems like a total waste simply not enough difference in the sounds through a Marshall you can hear difference with my Vibroverb but it is pretty mild. Sounds too muddy with the Marshall or the Maven Peal sounds decent with the AC-30 and the Fender. Which leads me to believe the pickups are just too powerful or too bassy. My LP with Rolphs and my Parkers with DiMarzios sound much better wide frequency response nice articulation good upper mid and high end sounds with all my amps.

Does that sound kind of like your issue with your Custom 22?

I don't really care to try a bunch of different pickups so if anybody felt the same way as I do what pickups did you end up with?

[Jim Collins]

Originally posted by Ced777
I have some worries: Jim told me he makes only std spaced PU. But my PRS has a trem and the bridge slot is F-spaced. I don't know if yours (with hard tail) is F-spaced (52mm) or std spaced (48mm) and if you got trouble with the bridge PU concerning spacing.
I fear to order something from WCR ...

Ced777

Your PRS has F-spacing? This would would be unusual. The normal PRS trem is not F-spaced. It uses standard spacing.

[Ced777]

I confirm: my PRS CU22 with trem (the PRS trem), is F-spaced. PRS use PUs with spacing of 50mm, just between F-spaced (52mm) and standard spaced (48mm). So they can fit in both guitars with hard tail or trem. But the distance between high E and low E is 52mm (F-spaced).

Ced777

[G'OlPeachPhan]

Originally posted by 908SSP
I have a custom 24 10 top violin burst beautiful to look at. Just don't care for the sound. The 5 way seems like a total waste simply not enough difference in the sounds through a Marshall you can hear difference with my Vibroverb but it is pretty mild. Sounds too muddy with the Marshall or the Maven Peal sounds decent with the AC-30 and the Fender. Which leads me to believe the pickups are just too powerful or too bassy. My LP with Rolphs and my Parkers with DiMarzios sound much better wide frequency response nice articulation good upper mid and high end sounds with all my amps.

Does that sound kind of like your issue with your Custom 22?

I don't really care to try a bunch of different pickups so if anybody felt the same way as I do what pickups did you end up with?

My findings are identical to yours... if I played nu-metal through a recto or 5150 I'd probably love the PRS pickups, but I don't... I play classic/retro/roots rock through a Dr. Z Ghia.

Yes, the pickups are too powerful, and lack soul. They are OK through my Ghia, but through my tweed Champ clone the guitar is USELESS. The 5-way rotary is clumsy and unnecessary.

Does anyone have a suggestion related to good pickups for a PRS? I really love the Wagners, but I want something different this time I think.

[G'OlPeachPhan]

Oh to hell with it. I just ordered a set of Goodwoods from Jim, and a McCarty-style wiring harness from RS Guitar Works... I know Wagner pickups are great, so I'm not going to take a chance on something I haven't heard.

[908SSP]

When you get it done let me know how it turned out. I had Proco over today and he explained the McCarty switching and I think I will do that too. So I am curious how you like your pickups which models exactly did you order?

[G'OlPeachPhan]

goodwoods - not as hot as fillmores, but hotter than crossroads, and thicker than both. Jim thought these characteristics would lend themselves perfectly to coil splitting... Roy at RS Guitar Works told me that they've installed Goodwoods with McCarty switching into many PRS 22's and 24's and that the results transform the guitar in a very positive way.

McCarty switching makes a lot more sense to me both mechanically with the 3-way toggle as opposed to the clumsy rotary, as well as tonally as I value the McCarty standard single coil sounds far more than the in-between single coil sounds of the 5-way rotary.

The RS Guitar Works wiring harness is supposed to feature higher quality components than the stock PRS McCarty setup, as well as an optional mod to the volume pot that retains highs when the volume is rolled back (which I'll definately be installing).

I'll make sure to post results.

[Greg]

Does the McCarty-style harness require modifications to the guitar, if you're changing over from the 5-way rotary?

[G'OlPeachPhan]

Yup... got use a wood ream to make the rotary hole just *slightly* larger. You can always use dental tape on the post of the rotary pot if you want to reinstall it someday...

[908SSP]

Hey G'Ol
Did you order or receive your conversion? Is it all coming from one source and is it partially assembled or do you do it that yourself? Are the pickups part of the kit or can you order the complete switching kit separate from the pickups?

[G'OlPeachPhan]

Hi Alex,

The pickups come from Jim Wagner who owns/runs WCR Pickups (http://www.crcoils.com). He referred me to Roy at RS Guitarworks (http://www.rsguitarworks.com/) for the wiring kit...

The wiring kit comes with a schematic and instructions, but you have to do all the installation and soldering yourself. I suppose you could order the kit and the pickups and bring it to a local guitar tech to do it for you.

I'll post my results... GOOD LUCK!

[908SSP]

Hi G'Ol
I changed my Cu24 to MCarty switching. I left the stock pickups in there to try and the switching. It is better but it didn't improve the sound of the pickups. But at least I know what is going on with the switching by looking at it as there wasn't enough difference in the sound to know by hearing it with the 5 way and you couldn't see what position you were in with the 5way. Have you tried the different pickups yet?

[G'OlPeachPhan]

Nope. I'm still waiting for the pickups... I originally got 3-conductor and I need 4-conductor for this wiring scheme. I will post as soon as I get them in.

I wouldn't have expected the McCarty wiring to have improved the sound of the pickups... maybe reduce a little noise and add a little clarity, but the stock PRS pickups are so hot that they are going to have their own overpowering character no matter what (which is the whole issue with them for me).

[908SSP]

What wiring scheme are you using? I did the McCarty wiring scheme according to this web site and used the stock three wire pickups. Two of the wires are connected together so they are essentially one any way. I want to change pickups. I checked the birds and moons site didn't find any sold info yet. Hate to buy install and not like the outcome but that might be my only choice.

McCarty Wiring (http://guitarelectronics.zoovy.com/product/WDUHH3T1104)

I also used a mini toggle on/on/on instead of the big gibson style selector switch so I didn't have bore out the hole for the five way if I ever want to put it back.

[G'OlPeachPhan]

Sorry, meant I got 2-conductor plus bare wire, and I need 3-conductor bare wire.

The mini-toggle is a nice idea, but I will be keeping this guitar for the rest of my life anyways, so I view it as a player rather than an investment... I never fell in love with the 5-way, and I gave it 8 years so I'm guessing I never will.

[Jim Collins]

Originally posted by 908SSP
What wiring scheme are you using? I did the McCarty wiring scheme according to this web site and used the stock three wire pickups. Two of the wires are connected together so they are essentially one any way. I want to change pickups. I checked the birds and moons site didn't find any sold info yet. Hate to buy install and not like the outcome but that might be my only choice.

McCarty Wiring (http://guitarelectronics.zoovy.com/product/WDUHH3T1104)


That diagram you show is meant for pickups that have four conductors plus a ground. PRS rotary guitar pickups have three-conductors plus a ground. The red wire of a PRS rotary switch pickup is already the product of a join of two leads -- the end of one coil and the beginning of the other.

[Ced777]

From the Seymour Duncan FAQ:

Trembuckers are designed for wider string most commonly associated with Floyd Rose or vintage vibrato bridges (often called Tremolos) with a string spacing of 2.070" or 52.6mm, measured center of high string to center of low string over the bridge pickup. Humbuckers are designed for bridges with traditional Gibson humbucker string spacing of 1.930" or 49mm, measured center of high string to center of low string over the bridge pickup.

From the DiMarzio FAQ:

For proper string alignment and balanced output, F-spaced humbuckers should be used in the bridge position on all guitars with string spacing at the bridge of 2.1" (53 mm) or greater

So traditional spacing is towards 49 mm (I have right now a Duncan PGn that is 48.6mm wide) and Floyd spacing is towards 52-53mm (depends on the brand).

On my PRS bridge: I measured exactly 51.4 mm. Closer to a F-spacing than a regular one. But not totally a F-spacing. It's why PRS use 50 mm wide PUs: they fit in bridge anbd neck of the PRS.

Ced777

[G'OlPeachPhan]

Originally posted by Ced777
It's why PRS use 50 mm wide PUs: they fit in bridge anbd neck of the PRS.

Ced777

If only they wound them to sound better :(

[esw]

I'm very interested in hearing how this turns out, since this is why I ended up quickly selling my PRS 8 years ago. As an aside, I wonder if this is why there are so many "never played - kept under my bed" PRS guitars on ebay (people smitten with the way they play but not the way they sound).

Maybe it's just that we've been listening to 60 years of music made by musicians playing instruments from (predominantly) two companies.

[G'OlPeachPhan]

I've got the install half done... all the old stuff is unsoldered and taken out, and all the new stuff is bolted in. I just have to do all the soldering and she'll be ready to go... My PRS is certainly the easiest playing guitar I've ever laid my hands on, and it's beautifully resonant. I suspect this pickup swap will be just the ticket. I'll be sure to post tonal end results; shouldn't be a problem to do a few clips with my Ghia... and the Champ clone I built, which was completely useless with the overpowering PRS pickups prior to the mods... those pickups just pounded the front end of that amp into a big saggy wet sack o' swamp mud, and that wasn't the tone I was looking for ;)

[908SSP]

Cool. I am waiting to hear about your results. I got the switching change done so it has the McCarty switching now but that didn't help the sound of the pickups, still mud:(

[G'OlPeachPhan]

Well guys, in a word, SUCCESS!

If you have a PRS that has been laying around unplayed in favor of other guitars that "sound better," I'd HIGHLY recommend this modification. The Goodwoods sound UNBELIEVEABLE.

Much like the Crossroads, they are extremely articulate, but with even more rich harmonic thickness. Both humbucking modes and single coils sound fantastic... I think my PRS with the Goodwoods sounds every bit as good as my 335 copy with the Crossroads now, if not even better.

I've played the PRS with these pickups for about 2 hours straight now, and it's heaven in the form of an axe. These pickups have the sweetest midrange of any pickups I've ever played. I've played enough pickups and guitars over the past 10 years to know that this is EXACTLY what I was looking for. Well worth the $325 to resurrect a $2K+ guitar that now sounds like it SHOULD HAVE sounded from the factory.

This verifies what I suspected... the only weakness in a PRS guitar in my opinion is the pickups. I'll do some clips when I have time, but in my opinion you'd only be wasting your time waiting for them... Wagner pickups are like NOTHING else on the market.

I'll post a full review of these pickups when I've had more hours on them. Much thanks to Jim Wagner, and of course Roy at RS Guitarworks for the fantastic McCarty wiring kit (and also for his help in guiding me through the relatively easy install). I'm decent with a solering iron, but a relative novice with schematics and electronics layouts, but this project was EASY. Even if you've never done it before, take your time, practice with your soldering iron first, and this will prove to be one of the most worthwhile ventures you've ever taken in your quest for tone.

[esw]

That's great!

On a side note, I actually had the opportunity to play 4 McCartys at the local guitar shop today, and they all played like ass. This is a huge relief, really, because now I no longer feel compelled to buy one. I'm pretty sure it was just that they hadn't been set up, but it was sufficient to cure me of my burning desire to get one.

[G'OlPeachPhan]

I haven't been overly impressed with PRS's that I've played in stores over the last couple years, but a lot of that is because I'm used to 10's at the least, preferably 11's, so that makes any guitar play like ass. If you don't do a custom setup on any guitar you buy, my feeling is that they're all going to play like ass, but some guitars may be beyond setups. I still have yet to play a PRS that feels as solid and resonant and plays as smooth as mine... that's why I always knew the guitar had true potential.

The PRS guitar I have been most impressed with in recent years is the hollowbody spruce. The other hollowbody's and archtops are all nice playing instruments too, but that spruce top makes it sound really silky. Got to play one through a Matchless Lightning and it sounded fantastic. That Modern Eagle sure is a nice looking axe too, but I haven't put my hands on one.

What axes do you usually play? I've got the PRS and a 335... My humbucker needs are officially fulfilled... Although I would like two more so I could drop Wagner Filmores in one and Herc's in another. Love those Wagner pickups :D

GASs'ing for a nice Tele someday to add to diversify my aresenal a bit...

[esw]

That could be it. My main guitar is a late-60s ES-335, lately strung with 10s. I wouldn't dream of touching the pickups, though - I love the sound of that guitar.

I should check out the hollowbody PRS... although do I really need two guitars filling the same niche? Probably not.

[G'OlPeachPhan]

Originally posted by esw
That could be it. My main guitar is a late-60s ES-335, lately strung with 10s. I wouldn't dream of touching the pickups, though - I love the sound of that guitar.

I should check out the hollowbody PRS... although do I really need two guitars filling the same niche? Probably not.

Yeah, if you've got a real deal '60s 335, I wouldn't recommend you waste your time on the PRS hollowbody's... A McCarty with GoodWoods might compliment it nicely though. If you're used to 10's on a 335, 9's on a PRS (which is going to play *easier* than a vintage 335 even if both have the same string gauges) is gonna feel like junk... I'd be willing to bet if you put some 10's or even 11's on a McCarty and dropped in some GoodWoods you'd have a keeper... Or maybe even better, a SingleCut with GoodWoods if they ever start making 'em again.

On another side note, I played a McCarty SoapBar that felt really nice a little while back, despite the fact that it had 9's on it... PRS P-90's aren't the best I've heard, but that guitar had potential! It seems like just like with Fender and Gibby, some PRS's are great, others are so-so.

[Ced777]

What kind of style/stuff do you play, G'OlPeachPhan?

[G'OlPeachPhan]

Blues to rock (classic, retro, modern). I don't play what I'd consider to be *heavy* music, and certainly no metal of any kind. The closest I get to metal type stuff is old Zep and Sabbath. I love the all the old classic rock -- Allmans, Clapton (Cream, Bluesbreakers, Derek), ZZ Top, etc. Of the new stuff I like everything from the current Allman Bros. (Warren Haynes is a monster player!), Jet, Pearl Jam, STP, Incubus, Jonny Lang, Brad Paisley (man, this guy can PLAY, country or not!), Radiohead, Weezer...

I'd keep going, but I think that gives you a pretty good idea of the styles I like... Although pretty diverse, they all have a very distinct guitar-driven sound that IMO falls within a certain range.