TGP and Premier Guitar

[Brian Scherzer]

TGP is proud to announce an agreement with Premier Guitar (PG) that will result in monthly spreads in their printed and online magazine and on the PG website, highlighting threads on TGP the PG editors believe to be of special interest to PG's readers. For us, this was a no-brainer! Premier Guitar has a well-deserved reputation for editorial independence and, in our opinion, is the finest music gear magazine available.

This agreement, while exclusive, does not have a financial basis. TGP and PG will not have any ownership or financial stake in each other. Rather, it is a partnership that is based on our common desire to present the best information available to our respective readers. There is an exceptional knowledge base among our members, and the immediacy of information sharing is one of the appeals of online forums. This has appeal to PG's staff and readers. PG, as we see it, is at the forefront of change in the music gear reporting business, delivered via print and through three electronic platforms. Their readers and our readers share many common traits, and the TGP and PG staff share in their founding philosophies.

Premier Guitar has many appealing qualities that we think will be of interest to our members, including an outstanding group of writers, and a vision that we share in giving exposure (without advertising compensation) to new innovative builders who may not yet be well known to the music community. Premier Guitar will be offering free "storefronts" to the small company builders who are members of TGP (more to come about that later). PG's online magazine is an exceptional example of what we think the future holds, as print newspapers and most magazines find themselves falling out of favor. Here are two links to their online magazine: http://digital.premierguitar.com and www.premierguitar.com (http://www.premierguitar.com). Their weekly E-letter, called Backstage Pass, is also freely accessible and one can sign up to receive same at http://www.premierguitar.com/newsletter. Premier Guitar does not ever rent, sell or release people's information to others. Check out the June issue of PG for an idea of what will be coming on a monthly basis!

[ADDED ON 5/17/09 10:09 p.m. EST] If you do NOT want your posts in any threads that Premier Guitar decides to highlight, please send me a PM stating so. I will check each thread that will be highlighted in every issue of PG before publication and will pull posts written by those members from public view until the member says it's OK to add the post(s) back.

[Jazzydave]

Awesome!!!

[kingsxman]

PG is my favorite guitar mag..far outpacing GP. I subscribe and would stop all my other mags before that one. Nice going Brian!!!

[decay-o-caster]

Very cool for both sides of the deal. :)

[althrax]

Great News, Great Magazine!

[guitarlifestyle]

That sounds like an exciting partnership. I agree that PG is at the head of the gear mag heap.

[Hamertoe]

Sounds great, hope it works out well for all involved.

[Mr. Kite]

Thanks I just signed up for the digital edition, looks cool!

[Loni Specter]

Well, I'm thrilled of course! :)

[Mercury25]

One more reason to love TGP...and PG!!

[Tone Disciple]

Great! Premier Guitar is a great magazine to be associated with.

[homebrewer99]

excellent idea! TGP is growing, and I like the direction we are taking.

cheers,
homebrewer

[79stratman]

Exciting news! Thanks guys, for making TGP an even greater asset.

[Old Tele man]

...you're BIGGER than you thought (originally)!

[thewhit]

Sounds like a great "get" for both entities.

[enocaster]

Has PG ever written a negative or critical product review?

[cdaloia]

Congrats Brian!
Forward motion.......

Chuck

[Thwap]

Love PG, it's the only mag I get every month.

[jazzandmetal?]

Very cool. PG is a great magazine and it seems like a no brainer that you guys would want to team up with them.

[MetalGuitard]

Incredibly exciting!

[otaypanky]

I met a bunch of the folks from Premier Guitar at the 2008 and 2009 N.Y. Amp Shows, of which they are a sponsor. A terrific bunch of people, enthused about what they do~

[john b]

Cool! PG is a really good and substantial mag and fits right in with alot of what TGP is about. Looking forward to it.

[Wheels]

Seems like a natural pairing. Congrats.

Wheels

[JS335]

My favorite mag. Good job.

[charmboy]

This is great news! I've been diggin the digital edition of PG for a while now and of course I have an unhealthy addiction to TGP! :)

[Groovey Records]

Ah another way to whittle away the hours digitally


I just had a thought


All Guitars ARE Digital !!!


you use your fingers don't ya!

[artandink]

Excellent. This reminds me to renew me subscription.

[Sonic Emergence]

Very cool! Great News!

[Leonardo]

Sorry folks, I decided to use my veto power against this.

[jimfog]

How much do we get paid for providing their content??

[Brian Scherzer]

How much do we get paid for providing their content??

TGP doesn't get anything and our members don't get anything.....except some exposure in a very nice magazine!

[Mooncusser]

Man....I am so proud of what TGP has grown to and become!
Awesome news!

[Jahn]

I'm just waiting for Tweedbucket to get his own human interest article in PG - then you'll know we arrived!

[LavaMan]

Read it in this months issue - great stuff!

[KRosser]

TGP doesn't get anything and our members don't get anything.....except some exposure in a very nice magazine!

"Exposure"? I'm sorry, not a great word to use on a working musician.

Am I to assume we'll be contacted for permission to reprint our 'contributions'?

[Brian Scherzer]

"Exposure"? I'm sorry, not a great word to use on a working musician.

Am I to assume we'll be contacted for permission to reprint our 'contributions'?

I'm hoping that you are joking. PG will take excerpts from selected threads and give a link so that readers can come to TGP to read the entire thread. They don't even need our permission to do this, although they have been given permission by us. This is covered in our Terms of Use agreement.

[Bryan T]

Is PG going to pay for the increased bandwidth?

What does TGP get out of this? More readers?

[KRosser]

I'm hoping that you are joking. PG will take excerpts from selected threads and give a link so that readers can come to TGP to read the entire thread. They don't even need our permission to do this, although they have been given permission by us. This is covered in our Terms of Use agreement.

No, I'm absolutely not joking. Your initial post was unclear then - it sounds as if PG would be reprinting posts from TGP as part of their content. Some people here get paid to provide magazine content. I think that's worth clearing up.

I'm sorry, on the surface of it it does come off a little like to argument used by guys that host bit torrent sites - "we're doing you a favor by giving you more exposure" even though it's being done without compensation or consent.

I'm just trying to be clear here on exactly what's going on. Your announcement gives no specifics.

[Scott Peterson]

No, I'm absolutely not joking. Your initial post was unclear then - it sounds as if PG would be reprinting posts from TGP as part of their content. Some people here get paid to provide magazine content. I think that's worth clearing up.

Well then, read the TOS for posting here (or any other forum FWIW) and you'll have your issue cleared up.

The entire proposition is to highlight conversations that are interesting and informative and already posted on TGP that a lot of folks might not have seen or thought about. It's a great thing and there's no material gain for TGP or PG in this other than to have fun discussion cool gear.

Which is the whole point of a forum.

[KRosser]

Well then, read the TOS for posting here (or any other forum FWIW) and you'll have your issue cleared up.

The entire proposition is to highlight conversations that are interesting and informative and already posted on TGP that a lot of folks might not have seen or thought about. It's a great thing and there's no material gain for TGP or PG in this other than to have fun discussion cool gear.

Which is the whole point of a forum.

So actual posts themselves will not be reprinted?

And when can we expect this to start?

[Scott Peterson]

Is PG going to pay for the increased bandwidth?

What does TGP get out of this? More readers?

There is no intent or gain other than to highlight cool discussions.

[Scott Peterson]

And when can we expect this to start?

Krosser, you keep editing your posts after I've already quoted and answered it.

Yes, it is simply straight reprints of threads they thought were cool and interesting.

Their June issue, which hits newsstands and mailboxes next week.

I'd suggest checking it out and then commenting before the knee-jerk negative reactions too. It's cool that folks here can see that their opinions and experiences are more universal than they might have imagined. Some of the threads highlighted are ones I wasn't even aware of but were very cool to read and learn about.

[oxtone]

Way to go Brian! Love PG, a great magazine. Look forward to seeing
the results!

[Bryan T]

There is no intent or gain other than to highlight cool discussions.

I guess I don't get it then. PG gains our content and we (TGP or the members) don't get anything in return. I don't see why this was a 'no-brainer.'

[Scott Peterson]

I guess I don't get it then. PG gains our content and we (TGP or the members) don't get anything in return. I don't see why this was a 'no-brainer.'

It's a highly respected and cool magazine that I enjoyed before any of this even came about; and I'd lay bets that many folks here would agree.

We will be able to offer a heavily discounted rate to our supporting members as a new perk in return (voluntarily by the member, no obligation to sign up nor any pressure to do so... so please let's not go there).

No one 'gets' anything in this; it's a cool thing to highlight cool conversations you might not have seen.

Sometimes it really is just about talking gear and music... honest.

We aren't 'giving anything up' no more than they are. It's simply a cool alliance to highlight cool conversations.

[KRosser]

I'd suggest checking it out and then commenting before the knee-jerk negative reactions too.

Where was I being 'knee-jerk negative'? I just want to know exactly and specifically what to expect.

I've been at this way too long to get all weak-kneed at the idea of being quoted in a magazine, no questions asked.

And yes, when someone uses the word "exposure" on someone that plays for a living, it's a big red flag. You certainly must be aware of that. Hence my questioning on details.

[splatt]

great for you!
nearly everybody seems thrilled with this development.

i'm not so thrilled, myself,
though i think i understand the excitement.
more exposure, a presumed influx of new members,
validation for the hard work & high nerves put in by
brian, scott & the great mods.
more manufacturers, more member clips,
the possibility of members' posts to become even slightly more civil.....
or, simply more anonymous posts,
whatever that may bring.

c'est la vie, eh?
changes, & moving on!
so it goes.

best,
dt / spltrcl

[Scott Peterson]

Where was I being 'knee-jerk negative'? I just want to know exactly and specifically what to expect.

I've been at this way too long to get all weak-kneed at the idea of being quoted in a magazine, no questions asked.

And yes, when someone uses the word "exposure" on someone that plays for a living, it's a big red flag. You certainly must be aware of that. Hence my questioning on details.

Perhaps I interpreted your intent wrong, but as such I never used the word 'exposure' either.

[KRosser]

Perhaps I interpreted your intent wrong, but as such I never used the word 'exposure' either.

No, Brian did. I was responding to him.

[Bryan T]

No, Brian did. I was responding to him.

Yeah, but he was talking about exposure for builders, not other folks.

[newking70]

How much do we get paid for providing their content??

WE? lol, do you own tgp? :rotflmao

[Brian Scherzer]

No, Brian did. I was responding to him.

Wait until you see it before you decide that it isn't a good thing.

[aleclee]

Wait until you see it before you decide that it isn't a good thing.But that isn't the TGP way! :boxer

[hogy]

FWIW, I had the same reaction as KRosser, Jimfog and others when I read this.
I'm uneasy with the idea that the knowledge/contributions the members here provide for free are going to be used to sell a commercial magazine. I might feel better if there was a provision in place by which members would have to give their individual permission to see their posts printed.

I also don't think TGP will get any better by growing even more.

[splatt]

Wait until you see it before you decide that it isn't a good thing.
i will wait;
i'll stop posting for a while, and just scan the site:
no big deal for me, since i do that, anyways.

some things about this make me uncomfortable;
not the least, that a magazine-for-profit will be sold
using (to some degree)
the content from a publicly-contributed website.

meanwhile, just a few questions;
i'm sure y'all have considered these things,
so my questions shouldn't be taken as
anything other than inquiry.

here are a few, off the top of me addled head:

can you give us a start-date?
(did i miss that, somewhere?)

who is deciding the content of the excerpted materials?

will the excerpted threads be taken "whole",
or broken up into a select set of posts?

will non-anonymous posters be contacted
for quote-approval?

what happens when anonymous posters who
are "famous" are accidentally "outed" on the forum..... (obviously, not really talking about me,
here, for clarity's sake):
would you delete all of their posts, at their request,
or simply change their TGP-name?

will the quality of the "techniques & lessons" section
decrease,
since some of the most respected teachers, here, make a living teaching privately,
in college/university etc?

will the "clips"- and "manufacturers"- subforums become inundated with material,
due to folks seeing another shot at "exposure".....
and, how will TGP handle that?
certainly, with the current growth of TGP,
it has been noticeably confused by a wealth of threads being posted
in the "wrong" sub-forums, seemingly willy-nilly,
making it harder to surf+search the site quickly.
so.....
will you be adding more mods?

thanks.
dt / spltrcl

[jtm622]

I'd bet you two oil-wells and a sandy-land farm that:

1) the PM's are just 'a flyin' today!!!

2) excerpts from this thread don't make it into "Premier Guitar"...

:)

[splatt]

I'd bet you two oil-wells and a sandy-land farm that:

1) the PM's are just 'a flyin' today!!!

2) excerpts from this thread don't make it into "Premier Guitar"...

:)
ha!

in any case;
i've never read Premier Guitar.
i hope it's a "quality"-magazine.

especially since, in order to do due diligence,
i will now buy my first copy.....
..... in order to see exactly who it is that
i may be implicitly "endorsing" in some kinda..... errrrmmmm,
unwitting "partnership".
?¡?

at very least,
it can be seen that this certainly might alter
how some folks view their postings & $-contributions to TGP,
for whatever that may be worth.

dt / spltrcl

[Brian Scherzer]

The June issue was stated as the start date in my initial post. I suggest to folks that they wait until then (I believe that their online magazine hits the web about May 20th) before deciding how they feel. No, entire threads will not be printed. Their intent is to highlight certain threads each month, quote some of the posts, and to place a link to those particular threads if their readers have a desire to read the actual thread. All newspapers and magazines have the right to quote other sources up to a certain point and to give attribution for those quotes.

I consider it a good thing that a magazine thinks that what TGP members write is of interest to others. As it stands today, any person anywhere in the world can freely read any thread on TGP. For a magazine to ask us was not even necessary, but they did ask us and we're fine with it. Judge after you see what they are doing because I have a feeling from some of the posts here that imaginations are going wild.

Splatt........You don't have to buy an issue to see this. They have a free online edition and I provided links to it.

[Bryan T]

at very least,
it can be seen that this certainly might alter
how some folks view their postings & $-contributions to TGP,
for whatever that may be worth.

dt / spltrcl

Exactly.

I'll try to track down a copy of this mag later today, as their online site doesn't yet feature content from our online site.

[Brian Scherzer]

People..........READ MY INITIAL POST! In it I stated that it begins with the June issue, which is not out yet. Also read my comment to Splatt above. Feel free to buy the magazine, but you can simply read their online version, which comes out sooner than you can find a copy at a newstand....without having to purchase the printed version.

[aleclee]

People..........READ MY INITIAL POST!
Thank goodness for cut & paste :rotflmao
But that isn't the TGP way! :boxer

[splatt]

The June issue was stated as the start date in my initial post. I suggest to folks that they wait until then (I believe that their online magazine hits the web about May 20th) before deciding how they feel. No, entire threads will not be printed. Their intent is to highlight certain threads each month, quote some of the posts, and to place a link to those particular threads if their readers have a desire to read the actual thread.
ok, brian.
please answer this one question, as it's important to me:
this appears to mean that PG has already begun
lifting from TGP, then, yes?

All newspapers and magazines have the right to quote other sources up to a certain point and to give attribution for those quotes.
of course they do; that's understood by me,
always was.
of course, that "right", alone, is a waaaaay lot different than
formalising an implicit partnership with a commercial, mass-media entity, ie:
the "press".



Splatt........You don't have to buy an issue to see this. They have a free online edition and I provided links to it.
well, it is a material thing, so.....
in my own mind, i should see, read & feel that thing,
in order to have a fuller clue.
no big deal; i have 5/8/10. bucks.

dt / spltrcl

[Brian Scherzer]

ok, brian.
please answer this one question, as it's important to me:
this appears to mean that PG has already begun
lifting from TGP, then, yes?

Yes, and Scott and I have seen the layout.

[splatt]

Yes, and Scott and I have seen the layout.
thanks, brian.

you guys deserve to do with TGP whatever it is
you feel is best..... and, i'm fully aware
that this may, indeed, prove to be a great thing for most folks concerned.

still,
you've had plenty of time, i suspect,
to mull this over & determine the nature of the the "relationship"
between PG & TGP;
so, i hope you'll personally respect the desire for some of us to also give it some thought.

so,
for right now, i'll refrain from posting,
until i see how this goes..... from my POV.
dudes,
dt / spltrcl

[Glide]

I think what some of the folks may be upset about is that PG prints stuff for revenue and gets advertising dollars from it.

TGP does not.

They are posting on TGP which does not receive advertising dollars, but their posts are being moved to a place (PG) that does make a lot of advertising dollars. And there are quite a few knowledgeable people here that volunteer gear related info. But their expertise is being turned into revenue generating content for a third party (Premier Guitar).

BTW, I like PG mag a lot - it is the best gear publication out there by far. I also get the print version for commode sitting and if I find something I am interested in I will usually click through on the digital version the next time I am on my computer. In other words, I utilize both versions of the magazine - online and print. It works very well.

[Brian Scherzer]

There is an easy solution to this, if the above post accurately represents some members' thoughts. We can ask permission of the members whose posts might be quoted in PG prior to publication. If the permission is denied, we would ask that those posts or that the thread(s) in question not be used in PG.

[big mike]

I suddenly feel the urge to search for the world's most poignant facepalm picture.




I think it is a cool alignment.

[2leod]

Yeah, why not? I think many would feel OK with being quoted, but knowing what is going to be printed before it shows up seems wise.

[big mike]

I honestly don't understand the decent.

Seriously, you all do realize that anything you post can be read by anyone that sees the website, right?

[2leod]

Sure, but what is read here is in context of the whole thread, and a quote in a magazine might be misread if the reader doesn't have the context to frame it in.

An example might be (though I would expect it would never be quoted) a tongue in cheek "Nickleback sux!!!" post.


And BTW, in my opinion there is none more poignant than Implied Facepalm :)

[Glide]

I honestly don't understand the decent.

Seriously, you all do realize that anything you post can be read by anyone that sees the website, right?

Great point Mike - When you publicly post something (text, photos, video) it really becomes part of the public domain.

Some places may use it for education / preservation, and others may use it for revenue, and others may use it for scamming.

[big mike]

Sure, but what is read here is in context of the whole thread, and a quote in a magazine might be misread if the reader doesn't have the context to frame it in.

An example might be (though I would expect it would never be quoted) a toungue in cheek "Nickleback sux!!!" post.


And BTW, in my opinion there is none more poignant than Implied Facepalm :)


Well, if they were going to quite something interesting, why would it be an assinine out of context post, right? Just thinking out loud.

I agree, but didn't want to derail with the implied facepalm.

[big mike]

Great point Mike - When you publicly post something (text, photos, video) it really becomes part of the public domain. Some places may use if for education and others may use it for revenue.

Depends on what it is.

Thoughts, text, and disucssion on a website, I agree.
Photos, schematics, video I have different thoughts.

[jazzandmetal?]

Sure, but what is read here is in context of the whole thread, and a quote in a magazine might be misread if the reader doesn't have the context to frame it in.

An example might be (though I would expect it would never be quoted) a toungue in cheek "Nickleback sux!!!" post.


And BTW, in my opinion there is none more poignant than Implied Facepalm :)

That is what I was just saying in the "poll thread". Stuff could easily get taken out of context.

[2leod]

Yeah the example I gave is goofy, but stuff happens - we can always delete posts here, but once it's printed...

I don't think there is much of an issue here, but I can see how some might be concerned.

[Brian Scherzer]

For those who are concerned about something "bad" appearing in PG, we had asked for the right to look at the threads that would be highlighted prior to PG publication, and the right to say "no". These are good people and I doubt that they would ever want to publish something negative.

[Glide]

Depends on what it is.

Thoughts, text, and disucssion on a website, I agree.
Photos, schematics, video I have different thoughts.

Not really. Google, Yahoo, MSN, Alta-Vista, and the others do not discern from any of those media types when they send bots to this forum to grab content and take back to their servers. They make lots of money selling ads doing it, and have been for 10 or 15 years. It's perfectly acceptable because the people that posted in the public domain contributed that item to the public domain.

But I agree with you - If you don't want Google getting your photos, schematics, or video simply don't post them - problem solved.

And if you do not want your comments showing up in Premier Guitar Mag don't post them on TGP - easy enough. Really, it's not brain surgery.

[splatt]

I suddenly feel the urge to search for the world's most poignant facepalm picture.
I think it is a cool alignment.
well, i didn't say it wasn't (potentially)
a cool alignment, mike.....


anyways.....
my major concern isn't really rooted
directly in issues of commerciality.

there's been loads of chat, around here o'er this past year & change,
surrounding the desire for TGP to become more civil,
more humane, more "old school" during its huge expansion.
very germane to that intent, i think, is that
TGP be more a place where folks can forge friendships, feel safe to do so, even though
it's clear that everyone can't become "friends".

i'm well aware that i may be wrong, but:
this particular style of expansion
may appear to some as being somewhat antithetical to that "more humane" intent.

here, we have a "community" in which the key
element is a new simulation of actual interaction between formerly completely remoted
human beings;
in the new context, what were once interactive conversations/discussions
now become something further remoted by one
very large step:
your once-conversations are to be presented as documented content for a commercial venture, in disregard for the context in which
those conversations were fostered.

the very choice of which threads & posts to be presented by PG is,
in some very real way,
an expression of an additional level & filter of editorial interests & concerns.

that Brian S. would offer to ask for approval of
the details of thread- & post- "editorialising"
is a major step in both validating & addressing this
which seems to be an issue for some, here;
in any case,
i don't feel that this honest interest
is generally worthy of being reduced to a face-palm, myself.
???

still, the humanest qualities of "personal conversations" present, here, will change.
maybe it will be for the better!
i'm not an expert,
but also don't feel that the very issues
likely to have been discussed at length between
at least Scott P, Brian S, PG (¿& the mods?) can be
simply & reasonably glossed-over,
even though it's clear that we/you/i do not *own* this place.....
..... point in fact,
Brian S's post re: "approval".

as well, i repeat for those relying on what generally looks like a very logical statement, in theory:
yes, it is clear that anything one says, here,
may be quoted freely (sort of) on the 'net, etc;
but, in reality? in practise?
it is not typically done.
of course,
that excepts cases in which manufacturers & builders cull
this music-oriented site (& others) for internet "endorsements"
to be quoted on their own websites,
sometimes (even, often) sans the speaker's "approval".

just saying, mike.
face-palms be damned, dude!

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/54799main_mars_smiley_face.gif

dt / spltrcl

[Glide]

WTF did you just say?

:D

[Brian Scherzer]

Everyone's statements, whether they be happiness over the change or wariness, are valid. In the end, I guess that it's up to folks to decide for themselves whether the TGP/PG arrangement is a good or bad thing. Personally, I believe that it "might" have some impact on improving posting behavior if there is a chance that more people will be reading the threads that PG selects to highlight. I believe that there were 4 or 5 threads that will be highlighted in the coming issue.

One major difference between the way I see things and the some others might see it is that I have spent time on the phone with both the CEO and Editor of Premier Guitar. These discussions have taken place over a period of months as we looked for what we and PG felt was "good" for both sets of readers. I have the advantage of now "knowing" the PG people and I trust them in a way that would not have happened with any other magazine. There is no legal document......just a verbal handshake between us and PG. It was understood by both sides that we needed to see what this would do for/to both groups of readers. Judge for yourselves in a few days.

[splatt]

And if you do not want your comments showing up in Premier Guitar Mag don't post them on TGP - easy enough. Really, it's not brain surgery.
that would be the case, but.....

it's clear that pre-existing posts
--- ie, those made previous to this public announcement ---
may be used in PG.

though, Brian S's assurance of
post #76 may account for that, as well.

but, indeed:
not brain surgery.

it's extremely possible that some folks may disappear
from posting on TGP, for their various reasons.....
reasons which may have escaped others' notice.

doesn't matter, i guess.
time marches on,
& the TGP population is, of course, usually prone to changes,
for better or worser.

there remains, i think,
a tremendous difference between having a large-group
discussion at NAMM, for example,
and having that discussion in an environment
wherein y'all know that it's being videotaped.....
..... and that videotape may be edited and shown more broadly & publicly,
divorced from its context, not by your choice,
at any point or points-in-time.....
..... in order to help fund the TV-Network on which it may air.
that's my issue, here.
i think.
whatever.

dt / spltrcl

[splatt]

Personally, I believe that it "might" have some impact on improving posting behavior if there is a chance that more people will be reading the threads that PG selects to highlight. I believe that there were 4 or 5 threads that will be highlighted in the coming issue.
good to hear, brian.....
i did suspect that a projection of positive changes in "posting behaviors"
might have been at issue,
for you (and, for OUR benefit).

in fact:
i have a minor secondary issue, too.....
i've been asked, a few times, by different guitar publications to write for them..... for $.
not PG, though.

since there was TGP, where i've been capable of interacting
with warmblooded (& a few coldblooded) humans in a relatively "free" public forum,
i've taken a pass on the notion.
for the better part of 6-7 yrs,
i've enjoyed the sometimes crazed interaction,
& a few very close friendships-formed.
i even "enjoyed" some of the the "heated" arguments, to some degree;
i've enjoyed seeing that some folks couldn't give a f*** what i have to say
or not,
the strange presumptions made often made all 'round,
the folks who publicly shun or revile others,
those who react strongly (both positively & negatively)
to my apparently oblique posting-style & my unapologetic
use of the american/english language:
all of it, pretty much.
it's so very different from reading a mag, writing for a mag, imo.
interaction.
some oh which may be, at least, curtailed or further PC'ed:
everybody on their best behavior,
which may become a dbl-edged sword, since we're already so damned careful.....
..... for the internet.
now,
i gotta look at my choices-made, thus far;
i'm sure you'll understand "why".



One major difference between the way I see things and the some others might see it is that I have spent time on the phone with both the CEO and Editor of Premier Guitar. These discussions have taken place over a period of months as we looked for what we and PG felt was "good" for both sets of readers. I have the advantage of now "knowing" the PG people and I trust them in a way that would not have happened with any other magazine. There is no legal document......just a verbal handshake between us and PG. It was understood by both sides that we needed to see what this would do for/to both groups of readers. Judge for yourselves in a few days.

thanks for that, all of it.

and, sorry for the ramble.
i can't be mistaken for someone who doesn't care,
in any case.

dt / spltrcl

[jimfog]

WE? lol, do you own tgp? :rotflmao

No...but presumably my (and your) posts will be used.

[jimfog]

I also don't think TGP will get any better by growing even more.

Agreed.

All I tend to to see are compliants about how hard it is to run, manage and maintain the site because of the sheer size. I'm happy to contribute $$$ to cover my use and the natural growth.........but not thrilled if the place is going to get over-run because of this "deal".

Also, like Ken says......"exposure" is a bit of a dirty word for a pro musician.

[Bobby D]

i just bought my first issue of PG, and was quite impressed with the magazine.

cool thing....i emailed Trent, and got a reply via email a day later! told him he needed to keep quiet about those laney AOR30 combos.....sssshhhh....;)

that just doesn't happen with some other big guitar mags.

i can see that there are a number of members who are a little uneasy about the partnership, but i am not. it seems to be a very smart move for the magazine, and may help get some exposure for some of my favorite builders who seem to "fly under the radar" with the other magazines.

and if they wanna quote me, feel free. everything i do on forums and on the internet is in the public domain. my music that i post is free. the stuff that is currently available by magnatune is licensed under the CC creative commons license, so it's ALMOST free :rotflmao

honestly, it seems the guitar mags are starved for content, and i'm glad that TGP is gonna partner with PG and not one of the others....

[dk123123dk]

I honestly don't understand the decent.

Seriously, you all do realize that anything you post can be read by anyone that sees the website, right?

Its simple. A magazine will be making money off posts from TGP.

dk

[splatt]

in the interest of clarity:
i know nothing about PG;
i have no way to express any opinions about the magazine,
its quality, its suitability to TGP (which doesn't belong to me),
and etc.

i may like it;
i will read a copy, today.

the "choice of partner" is not what confuses me.

dt / spltrcl

[jtm622]

Obviously, Premier Guitar's desire to expand their web presence is part of their "new" business model, which is being implemented most likely because of the ever shrinking pool of advertising dollars being spent on "print" (current AND projected advertising dollars); e.g., "Auto Trader" has announced that they are ceasing almost all of their "print" publications and will henceforth concentrate all their efforts on the web... and they are not alone.
Seriously, "now" is a rough time to be in the "print" business, and that situation will only get worse... There is a damn good BUSINESS reason why this is being done, folks... 'cause if you are in the business of selling advertising - then what you are essentially selling is your "demographic base" to paying advertisers...

All possible altruistic motives aside, Premier Guitar will benefit from this move... BIG TIME...

[big mike]

well, i didn't say it wasn't (potentially)
a cool alignment, mike.....


anyways.....
my major concern isn't really rooted
directly in issues of commerciality.

there's been loads of chat, around here o'er this past year & change,
surrounding the desire for TGP to become more civil,
more humane, more "old school" during its huge expansion.
very germane to that intent, i think, is that
TGP be more a place where folks can forge friendships, feel safe to do so, even though
it's clear that everyone can't become "friends".

i'm well aware that i may be wrong, but:
this particular style of expansion
may appear to some as being somewhat antithetical to that "more humane" intent.

here, we have a "community" in which the key
element is a new simulation of actual interaction between formerly completely remoted
human beings;
in the new context, what were once interactive conversations/discussions
now become something further remoted by one
very large step:
your once-conversations are to be presented as documented content for a commercial venture, in disregard for the context in which
those conversations were fostered.

the very choice of which threads & posts to be presented by PG is,
in some very real way,
an expression of an additional level & filter of editorial interests & concerns.

that Brian S. would offer to ask for approval of
the details of thread- & post- "editorialising"
is a major step in both validating & addressing this
which seems to be an issue for some, here;
in any case,
i don't feel that this honest interest
is generally worthy of being reduced to a face-palm, myself.
???

still, the humanest qualities of "personal conversations" present, here, will change.
maybe it will be for the better!
i'm not an expert,
but also don't feel that the very issues
likely to have been discussed at length between
at least Scott P, Brian S, PG (¿& the mods?) can be
simply & reasonably glossed-over,
even though it's clear that we/you/i do not *own* this place.....
..... point in fact,
Brian S's post re: "approval".

as well, i repeat for those relying on what generally looks like a very logical statement, in theory:
yes, it is clear that anything one says, here,
may be quoted freely (sort of) on the 'net, etc;
but, in reality? in practise?
it is not typically done.
of course,
that excepts cases in which manufacturers & builders cull
this music-oriented site (& others) for internet "endorsements"
to be quoted on their own websites,
sometimes (even, often) sans the speaker's "approval".

just saying, mike.
face-palms be damned, dude!

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/54799main_mars_smiley_face.gif

dt / spltrcl

Yours specifically wasn't what I felt warranted the facepalm. At any rate, as with opinions, everyone's is valid.

[splatt]

Yours specifically wasn't what I felt warranted the facepalm. At any rate, as with opinions, everyone's is valid.
yeah, mike, cool.
as usual.
got myself hyped-up, for a change.
misreading in the pile-up, and all that.

the important thing is:
didya dig that special lunar smiley-face?

dt / spltrcl

[Brian Scherzer]

Here is a simple solution. If you don't ever want your posts to appear on PG, just send me a PM and I'll make sure that any posts by those members in threads selected by PG are not visible to the public. They will still be on the thread and can be retrieved and made visibile whenever, or if ever, the person wants them to be on the thread again.

EDITED to change the wording to have members send me a PM instead of an email. This will make it easier for me to keep track and it assures me that the member actually made the request (I wouldn't be sure via email sometimes).

[2leod]

the important thing is:
didya dig that special lunar smiley-face?

dt / spltrcl
I did - far out, man!
:)

Not that this applies to me in any way, but what I see as the potential downside of this partnership is for people who have contractual relationships with labels or other business entities finding, in print, words that may have unintended impact on those relationships and not having a recourse to bring clarity to those words. Here on the forums there is give and take, and the mods moderate the flow of words, but once they are commited to print they become much more static and irrevocable.

My gut tells me that those situations will be few and distant, that the people at PG and TGP will see the potential for risk (print media deals with this routinely) and in those situations the words will be reviewed with the applicable members here to prevent any liability, so I'm looking forward to seeing which threads get highlighted!

Edit: Just saw the post above - good solution, in my redundant opinion!

[Scott Peterson]

I'll hazard a guess that many of the folks dissenting with this growth either have not seen Premier Guitar; or simply don't like anything that 'changes'.

Flat out, if a forum doesn't grow, it becomes stale and then dies. Period. The same folks posting the same things to just stay social with each other becomes insular and is less about a 'forum' and more about a closed social group.

I've seen Premier Guitar, I read it before any of this came about. I personally felt that this was a fantastic opportunity to start getting the threads of interest that are missed - and with all of the whining and 'it's not like it used to be' - grist for the mill you see in the pub periodically, it will put the focus back on the extreme depth of experience and knowledge TGP members offer each other.

(As an aside, the folks all up in arms about the TGP Webzine probably never even bothered for a second to stop and READ the darn thing.)

The truth of it is, they took the original posts from some threads and the follow-up remarks that are both enlightening and entertaining. Not crap from the Pub, not "Nickelback sucks", I mean come on folks. There is SUCH a wealth of smart, intelligent discussion on this Forum in sections that obviously many overlook or are ignorant of.

So do yourself a favor. Check out Premier Guitar at http://www.premierguitar.com/ and then make your mind up about what sort of publication it is.

They are gear heads and musicians... just like us. There is a benefit of folks reading a quality magazine being exposed to TGP too - folks that were not before exposed to TGP might come and add to the community here. This isn't some sleazeball magazine folks, they review and discuss the exact same boutique level gear we do here.

Get off your rear and check it out guys, you just might be surprised and say hey... this is cool! Because... it is.

[jimfog]

I'll hazard a guess that many of the folks dissenting with this growth either have not seen Premier Guitar; or simply don't like anything that 'changes'.

Flat out, if a forum doesn't grow, it becomes stale and then dies. Period. The same folks posting the same things to just stay social with each other becomes insular and is less about a 'forum' and more about a closed social group.

I've seen Premier Guitar, I read it before any of this came about. I personally felt that this was a fantastic opportunity to start getting the threads of interest that are missed - and with all of the whining and 'it's not like it used to be' - grist for the mill you see in the pub periodically, it will put the focus back on the extreme depth of experience and knowledge TGP members offer each other.

(As an aside, the folks all up in arms about the TGP Webzine probably never even bothered for a second to stop and READ the darn thing.)

The truth of it is, they took the original posts from some threads and the follow-up remarks that are both enlightening and entertaining. Not crap from the Pub, not "Nickelback sucks", I mean come on folks. There is SUCH a wealth of smart, intelligent discussion on this Forum in sections that obviously many overlook or are ignorant of.

So do yourself a favor. Check out Premier Guitar at http://www.premierguitar.com/ and then make your mind up about what sort of publication it is.

They are gear heads and musicians... just like us. There is a benefit of folks reading a quality magazine being exposed to TGP too - folks that were not before exposed to TGP might come and add to the community here. This isn't some sleazeball magazine folks, they review and discuss the exact same boutique level gear we do here.

Get off your rear and check it out guys, you just might be surprised and say hey... this is cool! Because... it is.

Scott,

No offense, but how can you read any of the questions a few of us have raised, and respond with THAT?

No one has accused PG of being sleazy, or even questioned it's quality. No one has worried about TGP "sucks" threads being propagated, and no one has said " nothing should ever change".

I understand that you personally are excited by this, but that's no reason to create a strawman to argue against. DT and Ken, in particular, make some valid points. (which Brian is addressing......thank you.). Your last line, in particular is just kind of insulting and bizarre, IMO.

Personally, I just don't see any benefit for TGP, unless the sole goal is simply "growth".

I also understand that mine is just a single silly opinion and you guys can (and should!!) do what you think is right. I dig this place and will continue to support it, no matter.

cheers,

Jim

[splatt]

i'm not generally predisposed, ever,
to dismiss the possibility that "change" can
be a good thing.
in this case, i've been very specific about
my personal discomfort with certain & distinct possibilities.
i'm open, but cautious, here.....
in fact,
i'd very much like for my concerns to be proven unfounded,
esp. as regards the nature of TGP's likely new growth & expansion.

and, as i said i would do:
i just picked up PG;
haven't read it, yet, as i'm working.
(yeah, same old thing: typing between phone-calls,
& while the music-computer is processing tracks.
5th week in a row with a "working sunday", for me.....)

dt / spltrcl

[Scott Peterson]

Jim,

I am not replying to David or Ken, Brian already did so... and quite well on his own. As you duly noted. When I reply to someone directly, I either quote their post or name their name as I just did with yours. Don't assume I was directing that post directly at any specific individual.

What I am referring to is the knee jerk reaction to any change, or even the perception of change as negative or the assumption that someone must be profitting at the expense of someone else.

My point is that assumptions are lazy. And most of the time, end up being off base.

And flat out: I've seen that spread, you have not and the gnashing of teeth here is simply misplaced. Brian (and I) have noted repeatedly that folks that are skeptical should see the thing in person before they cast their judgment.

No one called your opinion silly (and that is a straw man argument there too, so there!) and it does matter.

But you should hold off and see what this is before you believe your assumption of what it is... is.

[Scott Peterson]

i'm not generally predisposed, ever,
to dismiss the possibility that "change" can
be a good thing.
in this case, i've been very specific about
my personal discomfort with certain & distinct possibilities.
i'm open, but cautious, here.....
in fact,
i'd very much like for my concerns to be proven unfounded,
esp. as regards the nature of TGP's likely new growth & expansion.

and, as i said i would do:
i just picked up PG;
haven't read it, yet, as i'm working.
(yeah, same old thing: typing between phone-calls,
& while the music-computer is processing tracks.
5th week in a row with a "working sunday", for me.....)

dt / spltrcl

David,

Click my link and check it out. Their site is pretty much the content of their magazine. You'll immediately get a feel for the flavor of magazine it is.

[tonedaddy]

No...but presumably my (and your) posts will be used.


Yes, and those posts are in the public domain.
Completely free to be used/quoted by anyone, with or without attribution,
by anyone in print or digital media, for profit or not.

Someone could use any/all posts ever made on TGP and write a book or magazine articles for profit.

And, heaven forbid, they could even use such information to build and/or sell guitars/amps/effects!
Oh, the horror!!
:eek:
Thanks goodness that's never happened.
;)


Frankly, I don't understand the uproar (and I'm not criticizing folks who have raised questions).
Any user provided content/posts have always been available to any media, including PG.

They could do this without even asking.
Seems they're simply asking to do it as they'd rather be in good graces than in poor ones.

It's the internet, and the information (good and bad alike) is free.
Either ya dig it, or ya don't.


Personally, I think it's a great idea.
Kudos to Brian/Scott for making it happen.

[jimfog]

J
No one called your opinion silly (and that is a straw man argument there too, so there!) and it does matter.

Thanks for the response. I'll of course be interested when it comes out.

And, to be clear.........I was calling my opinion silly and kind of inconsequential.....and I believe it!! ;)

cheers,

Jim

[Strung Up]

Can the option of making one's posts available/unavailable for sale be put in the User CP?

Ownership stakes aside, is PG paying TGP?


. . .
This agreement, while exclusive, does not have a financial basis. TGP and PG will not have any ownership or financial stake in each other. Rather, it is a partnership that is based on our common desire to present the best information available to our respective readers.
. . .

[Scott Peterson]

Can the option of making one's posts available/unavailable for sale be put in the User CP?

Ownership stakes aside, is PG paying TGP?

No and no.

If you don't want your posts used in PG, contact Brian.

PG isn't paying TGP. And TGP isn't paying PG.

[mark norwine]

Honestly, I'm not comfortable with any of this. Not by a long shot.

If I wanted to write for PG, I would.

The very thought that my words, freely given here in a "community of like souls" can / will /might be excerpted freely by a for-profit publication for the sole purpose of helping them increase profitability is not something that sits well with me.

The further idea that the owners of TGP would so freely allow said excerption to be done and to call it "a no brainer" is unfathomable.

But this isn't my forum, so my opinion is pointless, and I resign myself to that. Nevertheless, I really need to think this over as I’m not sure I see my posting continuing.

[Thwap]

No and no.

If you don't want your posts used in PG, contact Brian.

PG isn't paying TGP. And TGP isn't paying PG.

Honestly, I'm not comfortable with any of this. Not by a long shot.

If I wanted to write for PG, I would.

The very thought that my words, freely given here in a "community of like souls" can / will /might be excerpted freely by a for-profit publication for the sole purpose of helping them increase profitability is not something that sits well with me.

The further idea that the owners of TGP would so freely allow said excerption to be done and to call it "a no brainer" is unfathomable.

But this isn't my forum, so my opinion is pointless, and I resign myself to that. Nevertheless, I really need to think this over as I’m not sure I see my posting continuing.

Or...you could contact Brian.

[tonedaddy]

Honestly, I'm not comfortable with any of this. Not by a long shot.

If I wanted to write for PG, I would.

The very thought that my words, freely given here in a "community of like souls" can / will /might be excerpted freely by a for-profit publication for the sole purpose of helping them increase profitability is not something that sits well with me.

Is that a result of your being uncomfortable with the concept of your words posted here always having been in the public domain,

or

your objecting to or lack of understanding of the ramifications of what you've been freely putting into the public domain since you started posting on TGP (or anywhere else on the internet, for that matter)?


And I'm not objecting to or criticizing your opinion in any way,
rather simply trying to understand your opinion considering your words
have always been freely available for any publication to use.

[mark norwine]

Or...you could contact Brian.

Why? It's pretty clear that TGP management has already green-lighted this. What's to say?

I would maybe point out that this "deal" seems to be in stark contrast to TGP's terms of service, which states:

By transmitting any content to our site, you grant to The Gear Page, LLC, its successors and assigns, a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty free, perpetual, non-revocable license to distribute, display, broadcast, or reproduce that content or to use or distribute that content in any manner, and to authorize the downloading and printing of a copy of the content by end users for their individual non-commercial use.

What's non-commercial about PG?

[mark norwine]

Is that a result of your being uncomfortable with the concept of your words posted here always having been in the public domain,

or

your objecting to or lack of understanding of the ramifications of what you've been freely putting into the public domain since you started posting on TGP (or anywhere else on the internet, for that matter)?


And I'm not objecting to or criticizing your opinion in any way,
rather simply trying to understand your opinion considering your words
have always been freely available for any publication to use.

Neither.

My distaste for this is the idea that PG gets a "free ride".

I'm comfortable with my words. I'm not comfortable with a for-profit mag advancing their existence with them.

[Scott Peterson]

Why? It's pretty clear that TGP management has already green-lighted this. What's to say?

I would maybe point out that this "deal" seems to be in stark contrast to TGP's terms of service, which states:

By transmitting any content to our site, you grant to The Gear Page, LLC, its successors and assigns, a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty free, perpetual, non-revocable license to distribute, display, broadcast, or reproduce that content or to use or distribute that content in any manner, and to authorize the downloading and printing of a copy of the content by end users for their individual non-commercial use.

What's non-commercial about PG?

You've misinterpreted the quote from the TOS. Read it again and note my bolded "and" which is a conjunction.

"By transmitting any content to our site, you grant to The Gear Page, LLC, its successors and assigns, a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty free, perpetual, non-revocable license to distribute, display, broadcast, or reproduce that content or to use or distribute that content in any manner, and to authorize the downloading and printing of a copy of the content by end users for their individual non-commercial use."

Same quote. Same TOS. You've misread it.

[mark norwine]

So be it.

This was never said to be a democracy.

[Ed DeGenaro]

I have no dog in this proverbial fight. But I would like to point out that in the last year I've seen more and more blurps in guitar mags that were from on-line sources. IMO mags are going the way of the dinosaur, hence mags having more and more a web presence. So...the partnership maks perfect sense.

As for not wanting to be quoted,,,opt out, Done.
These days, the power of the guitar pen isn't mightier than the guitar sword, because of places like TGP. This might just be the next step in how information is dealt with, or it might fail...time will most likely tell.

As for PG, those guys have come insanely far from the days of Musician's Hotline.

[Scott Peterson]

And for what it is worth, we've had content from TGP quoted in other publications and all over the Web and never this 'outrage' or 'distaste' before. In fact, Premier Guitar has quoted posts in full in the past already. No reaction whatsoever from anyone here. Not once.

Just noting facts.

[jazzandmetal?]

And for what it is worth, we've had content from TGP quoted in other publications and all over the Web and never this 'outrage' or 'distaste' before. In fact, Premier Guitar has quoted posts in full in the past already. No reaction whatsoever from anyone here. Not once.

Just noting facts.

Actually, I remember the reaction to the Tedzepplin relic thread that they put in their magazine to be quite positive here.


http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=523844

[Glide]

You've misinterpreted the quote from the TOS. Read it again and note my bolded "and" which is a conjunction.

"By transmitting any content to our site, you grant to The Gear Page, LLC, its successors and assigns, a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty free, perpetual, non-revocable license to distribute, display, broadcast, or reproduce that content or to use or distribute that content in any manner, and to authorize the downloading and printing of a copy of the content by end users for their individual non-commercial use."

Same quote. Same TOS. You've misread it.

I don't have a dog in the fight either, but I still do not understand the point you are making here. It plainly states non-commercial use.

What am I reading wrong?

Are you saying that you can use the information any way you want, but members can only use it for non-commercial use?

Does that mean if PG is a member here then they cannot use it commercially?

Also, does that include photos, schematics, and video posted here and on your other boards?

[Scott Peterson]

Actually, I remember the reaction to the Tedzepplin relic thread that they put in their magazine to be quite positive here.


http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=523844

No moral outrage is what I was getting at.

I don't have a dog in the fight either, but I still do not understand the point you are making here. It plainly states non-commercial use.

What am I reading wrong?

Are you saying that you can use the information any way you want, but members can only use it for non-commercial use?

"And" is a conjunction. I do not want to insult or anger you; but you have to tell me what you do not understand here. The final phrase of that sentence is a separate thought from the first part of that sentence. Hence the use of a conjunction.

And I'll note that this is standard TOS for any forum on the Internet.

Please take a minute and scroll down to the bottom of this page and click on "Terms of Use" and please read what you agreed to abide by.

A direct link is below or just click this: http://www.thegearpage.net/board/tgphome.php?pageid=Terms%20of%20Use

[Glide]

I'm certainly not angered. And I don't mean to anger you, but it seems like if you really read that sentence with the conjunction you are placing a lot more value on your partners than you are on the membership that creates your content that you are giving away. Your partners can make money with it, but your members must use it non-commercially, according to your conjunction.

Just food for thought.

[Scott Peterson]

For comparison and reference, please take a few minutes and compare the TOS from some other major musician based forums around the Net:

Harmony Central:
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/faq.php

TalkBass:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/faq.php?

GearSlutz:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/terms/

[Scott Peterson]

I'm certainly not angered. And I don't mean to anger you, but it seems like if you really read that sentence with the conjunction you are placing a lot more value on your partners than you are on the membership that creates your content that you are giving away. Your partners can make money with it, but your members must use it non-commercially, according to your conjunction.

Just food for thought.

Glide,

Lawyers write those TOS agreements. Need I say more?

Please take some time, read the TOS here on TGP and then compare it to HC, GS and TB TOS agreements. You'll see they are all virtually identical.

[Strung Up]

Brian & Scott,
Thanks for your patient explanations and clarifications. The time and energy you're spending on this is appreciated by many of us.

Regardless of the current state of enlightenment of PG's editors/management/ownership, I see this as opening the door to, among other things, their sponsors' employees posting here to shill products, only to have the 'ringers' threads lifted.

Further, despite my threads and posts here being met with almost universal indifference, I do have a few areas of playing and gear expertise that I'll occasionally woof about, given enough caffeine. I'd prefer not to increase the odds of my few moments of fleeting Gear Page lucidity being used to help sell stuff I don't believe in (I won't go down the laundry list I got from scanning PG).

[big mike]

the important thing is:
didya dig that special lunar smiley-face?

dt / spltrcl

Absolutely!

[otaypanky]

I suddenly feel the urge to search for the world's most poignant facepalm picture.

I think it is a cool alignment.

I honestly don't understand the decent.

Seriously, you all do realize that anything you post can be read by anyone that sees the website, right?

Yes, and those posts are in the public domain.
Completely free to be used/quoted by anyone, with or without attribution,
by anyone in print or digital media, for profit or not.

Someone could use any/all posts ever made on TGP and write a book or magazine articles for profit.

And, heaven forbid, they could even use such information to build and/or sell guitars/amps/effects!
Oh, the horror!!
:eek:
Thanks goodness that's never happened.
;)


Frankly, I don't understand the uproar (and I'm not criticizing folks who have raised questions).
Any user provided content/posts have always been available to any media, including PG.

They could do this without even asking.
Seems they're simply asking to do it as they'd rather be in good graces than in poor ones.

It's the internet, and the information (good and bad alike) is free.
Either ya dig it, or ya don't.


Personally, I think it's a great idea.
Kudos to Brian/Scott for making it happen.

Ditto, ditto, and ditto -
After having met and hung out several times with 6 of the staff of Premier Guitar, including the CEO, I think they're terrific people. I like them personally, and I like their on-line webzine and print magazine. After being a member here for a few years and getting to know Brian and Scott, I trust their judgements and decisions, I obviously like what they do here, and I like them personally. In spite of the Questions, concerns, whining and objections to each and every minute detail of any type of change here, they persevere in trying to make TGP all they imagine it can be. I'd guess that comes at the expense of a huge portion of their lives being spent at a keyboard instead of with loved ones or their own enjoyment of their music.
I am not a professional musician and admit I don't fully understand the concerns many may have concerning any sharing of content. But as Tonedaddy mentioned, anything you post anywhere on the internet is available to be reprinted or plagerized. PG has the integrity to state the source and not simply rebrand the information as their own ~

[Bluesbuff]

Brian & Scott,
Thanks for your patient explanations and clarifications. The time and energy you're spending on this is appreciated by many of us.

Regardless of the current state of enlightenment of PG's editors/management/ownership, I see this as opening the door to, among other things, their sponsors' employees posting here to shill products, only to have the 'ringers' threads lifted.

Further, despite my threads and posts here being met with almost universal indifference, I do have a few areas of playing and gear expertise that I'll occasionally woof about, given enough caffeine. I'd prefer not to increase the odds of my few moments of fleeting Gear Page lucidity being used to help sell stuff I don't believe in (I won't go down the laundry list I got from scanning PG).

I think this is the crux of the biscuit. I've no axe to grind one way or the other and realize that PG, or anyone else for that matter, can always use TGP to shill their favorite or most sponsored product and all things must change. Those of us who chose to contribute to this forum because we feel it has value may be more skeptical and less likely to give our $ when a commercial relationship (real or implied, present or future) is involved, no matter how awesome the PG management, at the present time, may be. This is in no way a criticism of this forum or it's moderators but perception is all and my perception is that this represents the end of an era, for good or bad, only time will tell. In reality it may not make any difference at all, only time will tell.

[KRosser]

First of all, I kind of resent a little that asking clear questions about what's going on somehow means I'm being negative, critical, 'fearing change' or in a state of moral outrage. All of these scenarios are far from the truth, I can assure you. I expressed no feelings about it at all - I just asked questions.

Anyway, you want my feelings? Here we go -

There's a big difference between posts being quoted in magazines as a matter of free journalistic license and setting up a relationship with one specific magazine for that specific purpose.

So, I had questions. Why shouldn't I?

My concerns go far beyond protecting myself. Let's imagine this is a virtual 'bar' somewhere, where we each have the ability to 'shoot the shit' as we like, and respond back and forth in kind. In the print medium, this is lost. It's something that interests me less, personally. In magazines I want to hear what professional writers have to say; I'm not a big fan of man on the street/'reality' television or print.

Which is just to say, I think it changes things - for the better, maybe so - I'm an optimistic guy.

I just wonder what happens to the freewheeling give and take at this 'virtual bar' of ours when everyone knows the clever or outrageous post can be your ticket to greater 'exposure', and that eyes are out looking for them.

As for lesson advice etc. that I've given away here, to me it feels a lot different to do so in an environment where it can be used as content in a commercial magazine, rather than in the spirit that existed until now.

I'm concerned also that one of my own main attractions here - that known working players contribute - is likely to dwindle as a result of them being seen as a more desirable commercial target for this content search.

Before I post anything here, I like to ask myself to consider it's being read all over the world in this very fluid format, that can be edited, nuanced, etc., months after the fact. Now I need to ask myself, what if it winds up in this other very static format - that's all. It does change things.

No, all change is not bad. But I think you'd be a fool not to question the ramifications of it.

And of course, I'm not stupid. I know I can stop posting on TGP and avoid PG, whatever, if I don't like it. Why does this even need to be said?

Anyway, I'm just a long-time member who likes it here and had some questions.

[tonedaddy]

Neither.

My distaste for this is the idea that PG gets a "free ride".

I'm comfortable with my words. I'm not comfortable with a for-profit mag advancing their existence with them.

I never questioned if you were comfortable with your words.
I was referencing that is seems you are now uncomfortable that your words can/will/might might be excerpted freely by a for-profit publication.

You let the cow out of the barn the first day you posted anything on any internet forum.
Seems a bit late to get uncomfortable somebody could milk it.

[soldano16]

I'll say one thing. I see no reason to have to provide the level of personal information asked by Premier to get a digital subscription. Place of birth?

Excuse me?

I won't subscribe - that's BS.

[Scott Peterson]

I think this is the crux of the biscuit. I've no axe to grind one way or the other and realize that PG, or anyone else for that matter, can always use TGP to shill their favorite or most sponsored product and all things must change. Those of us who chose to contribute to this forum because we feel it has value may be more skeptical and less likely to give our $ when a commercial relationship (real or implied, present or future) is involved, no matter how awesome the PG management, at the present time, may be. This is in no way a criticism of this forum or it's moderators but perception is all and my perception is that this represents the end of an era, for good or bad, only time will tell. In reality it may not make any difference at all, only time will tell.

One thing missed is that Brian and I would end our agreement with PG if that came to pass.

Give us a little credit guys, please?

KRosser, it appears you are taking words personally. They are not. A) Brian has already extended the invitation to allow you exclude anything you post from PG's use; B) Brian and I can end the relationship with PG at any time for any reason (and vice versa); C) you should read the TOS for yourself. You already agreed to it.

[Brian Scherzer]

I have said everything that I can think to say on this thread until people actually see what the spread in Premier Guitar looks like. I have the advantage of seeing it, so until our members can see it, all you can go on is my opinion. There are members who are for the idea and there are members who are against it. I have done what is possible to protect those members who have sent me PMs asking to not have their posts appear in PG, and have even agreed to hide their posts in the threads selected by PG, even if their posts are not quoted by the magazine. It's only a couple of days before all TGP members can see the spread for themselves. I will re-enter the conversation at that time.

[KRosser]

KRosser, it appears you are taking words personally. They are not.

You yourself accused me of being 'knee-jerk negative'. I don't take it personally, but it leads me to believe you're not actually reading what I'm saying or asking.

Again - my concern is not for me or my posts personally as what it does to the community. Shared back-and-forth in a not-for-profit message board is different once you invite a commercial interest to come in and mine for content. This is also a lot different than any other media quoting TGP as part of a story. This is TGP becoming the story.

I don't need to see the magazine to decide whether it looks good or not; I don't care about PG and whether or not we look fantastic in it or not. I care about how it changes the community here at TGP.

And obviously, since I don't yet know how the magazine's presence will change TGP I don't have a conclusion either way about it yet.

A) Brian has already extended the invitation to allow you exclude anything you post from PG's use;

Graciously so, IMHO

B) Brian and I can end the relationship with PG at any time for any reason (and vice versa);

I assumed that from the very beginning.

C) you should read the TOS for yourself. You already agreed to it.

I gotta ask you, if you really don't want our feelings on this and you don't need our permission, why announce it?

I never expected to change the course of anything here. I just had questions, I got them answered and I expressed my feelings, which Brian specifically asked me for. I don't expect either to amount to anything in the grand scheme.

I know I'm free to split anytime, though that's not my intention at all as I've still yet to see whether this new effect on TGP is for the good or for the worse.

[Scott Peterson]

You yourself accused me of being 'knee-jerk negative'. I don't take it personally, but it leads me to believe you're not actually reading what I'm saying or asking.

Again - my concern is not for me or my posts personally as what it does to the community. Shared back-and-forth in a not-for-profit message board is different once you invite a commercial interest to come in and mine for content. This is also a lot different than any other media quoting TGP as part of a story. This is TGP becoming the story.

I don't need to see the magazine to decide whether it looks good or not; I don't care about PG and whether or not we look fantastic in it or not. I care about how it changes the community here at TGP.



Graciously so, IMHO



I assumed that from the very beginning.



I gotta ask you, if you really don't want our feelings on this and you don't need our permission, why announce it?

I never expected to change the course of anything here. I just had questions, I got them answered and I expressed my feelings, which Brian specifically asked me for. I don't expect either to amount to anything in the grand scheme.

I know I'm free to split anytime, though that's not my intention at all as I've still yet to see whether this new effect on TGP is for the good or for the worse.

I am reading your posts. I do empathize with your feelings, but don't agree with them. I feel the assumption of what you will see is going to commercialize TGP is wrong. I feel that you have overstated the possibilities based on your assumptions. I think your idea of the 'new effect on TGP' is vastly overstated and completely off base. TGP has been quoted in print magazines in the past and there has been no such effect to date.

I have no problem with you or your opinions. But I do not agree with you and have the advantage of having seen the actual thing PG is going to print. You have not. Brian has asked repeatedly (as have I) that you look at it (which can be done for free once they put out their digital version on their web site) before you speculate the possible outcome.

Just because I do not agree with you doesn't mean your opinion is ignored, cast aside nor given any consideration. I'm not dismissing you nor have I come to ask you to leave TGP nor raised that thought once. You've constructed a straw man position to attack on that point.

It always strikes me as 'knee-jerk' when folks are so passionately set in their opinion before they have the actual facts in front of them to consider. A position postulated on speculative assumption debated with such focus and persistence strikes me as knee-jerk. That's not a flame nor condescension. That's my opinion, worth about as much as you paid me for it... nothing.

This is a cool thing that has been rolled hard by a few individuals without benefit of actually seeing what they are rolling on. Wait to see it and then form your opinion.

[KRosser]

Wait to see it and then form your opinion.

I'll say it one more time: I don't have any opinion yet - saying I have cause for concern is not voicing a negative opinion.

Anyway - the opinion I'm looking to clarify is not of PG, it's of TGP's adaption to the new environment.

Maybe it'll just be same-old, same-old. Maybe it'll be better. Maybe not. Only time will tell.

[davehorten]

Has PG ever written a negative or critical product review?

I'm not sure it's fair to specify PG on this point. All of the trade mags now are complete whores to their advertisers. The publishing business is dying and these people are scrambling to find a way to survive in the Internet world. Free content is an obvious straw to grasp at.

[davehorten]

I'll say one thing. I see no reason to have to provide the level of personal information asked by Premier to get a digital subscription. Place of birth?

Excuse me?

I won't subscribe - that's BS.


Do what everyone else does - LIE! How companies think people will be honest with this type of information is beyond me. It's not like they are extending me credit.

[ecbluesman54]

Sounds great, looking forward to it. Best magazine on the market.

[hogy]

Do what everyone else does - LIE!

Everyone else does not lie.

FWIW, I won't sign up either since they require information like physical address, place of birth, etc. That doesn't fly with me, at all.

[splatt]

really,
no-one should be insulted for inquiry, for caring
enough to ask questions.

while i still harbor certain concerns, myself
--- some that focus on me & some of my friends,
more of them for the nature of community, as it were ---
given the fine-points of assurance posted by brian,
& by scott (in that "poll" thread, over in the lounge),
i've decided to continue posting, as usual.....
i mean to say:
irregularly, as usual.
fwiw.

dt / spltrcl

[splatt]

Everyone else does not lie.

FWIW, I won't sign up either since they require information like physical address, place of birth, etc. That doesn't fly with me, at all.
double-ditto,
& triple-ditto.

dt / spltrcl

[Hamertoe]

Somewhere, some outfit is paying for that information or they wouldn't ask it. It's ridiculous to assume one's place of birth is relevant to an online magazine publisher.

[Scott Peterson]

I have paraphrased my own statement from an email I just sent on this topic. I thought adding it here would be helpful to the topic and the members of TGP.

Thanks for your input and thanks for the comments about the PG thread(s). I do understand and empathize with the reaction, both positive and negative. I value the passion folks feel towards TGP, whether or not I actually agree with them on any given topic.

Brian and I are aware that any sort of a change or 'move' in any direction is always met with some sort of question and trepidation; and rightfully so. We are trying to foster a community and without different points of view, that community will not thrive. We are far from perfect and have made missteps in the past; and often it was the community that pointed that out. I can speak for Brian and myself that we are both very positive on letting PG highlight some of the quality threads on TGP.

The threads PG chose to highlight are informative, thoughtful and interesting. Of them in the spread, I was only aware of one. The others were fantastic and informative; and I'm happy I got to discover and explore them. PG is not interested in any reviews or contentious rabble rousing from TGP, just good topics that are helpful and interesting to other musicians.

[tonedaddy]

I'll say one thing. I see no reason to have to provide the level of personal information asked by Premier to get a digital subscription. Place of birth?

Excuse me?

I won't subscribe - that's BS.FWIW, I won't sign up either since they require information like physical address, place of birth, etc. That doesn't fly with me, at all.Somewhere, some outfit is paying for that information or they wouldn't ask it. It's ridiculous to assume one's place of birth is relevant to an online magazine publisher.

The easy solution to ridiculous online questions about your demographics is to give them ridiculous answers.

Just put down anything that comes to mind, and for goodness sake, try a completely fake email address until you know a legitimate one is needed for confirmation (you'd be amazed at how many websites still don't require a confirmation email to sign up). If they do require a legit email address, create one for all of your internet signups if you don't ever want your legit/primary email being spammed.

On various non-gear websites, I'm everything from a 102 year old female bodybuilder living in Russia to an 18 year old male nuclear physicist from Tahiti to a variously aged guy from MN named Hubba Bubba.


Address?
123 Main St.
Anytown, GA
12345

Phone number?
123-456-7890


Problem solved.

[trisonic]

I've got the actual physical magazine in front of me.
The two page spread is on pages 180 - 181. Pretty innocuous choice of threads, I may have read one of them on here.
The authors will either cream their jeans at being mentioned or yawn, I suppose; "Gas-man" gets mentioned twice.......hardly a "Greatest Hits" (their words) of current threads, all of them may have moved to "bit" oblivion by now because of the long lead time of magazines.
I must say that the TGP logo looks nifty in print.
Best, Pete.

[Glide]

Page 1 of 2

http://www.prsregistry.com/tgppg1.jpg

[Glide]

Page 2 of 2

http://www.prsregistry.com/tgppg2.jpg

[Bryan T]

"Greatest Hits?" Those seem like the types of threads that I avoid. Oh well.

[dk123123dk]

I'm not sure it's fair to specify PG on this point. All of the trade mags now are complete whores to their advertisers. The publishing business is dying and these people are scrambling to find a way to survive in the Internet world. Free content is an obvious straw to grasp at.

Yeah well I don't want that crap at the Gear Page. :BITCH

dk

[amigo30]

No offense to the posters, but that wasn't exactly riveting reading...

[Scott Peterson]

Is the sky still falling folks?

[Scott Peterson]

No offense to the posters, but that wasn't exactly riveting reading...

Wow. Everyone's a critic now? :facepalm

[jimfog]

Is the sky still falling folks?


Again with the insults. If people have concerns they're Chicken Little, apparently?

Scott.......no offense at all meant......but you may have too much wrapped up in this deal, and can't be objective about it. That's totally cool......you SHOULD be excited about it, if it means that much you. But perhaps you shouldn't be fielding opinions on the matter if it's that close to the bone?

Respectfully,

Jim

[Scott Peterson]

Again with the insults. If people have concerns they're Chicken Little, apparently?

Scott.......no offense at all meant......but you may have too much wrapped up in this deal, and can't be objective about it. That's totally cool......you SHOULD be excited about it, if it means that much you. But perhaps you shouldn't be fielding opinions on the matter if it's that close to the bone?

Respectfully,

Jim

Jim,

You cannot be serious. Insult? Chickenlittle? Come on man, it was a lighthearted statement.

PM me if you want to continue the bickering with anything I type. Seriously.

Respectfully,

Scott

[amigo30]

Wow. Everyone's a critic now? :facepalm

As I said, no offense meant to the original posters. Nothing disrespectful was intended. My point was, it sounded like exactly what it was, a bunch of guys chatting on a forum. My reaction as a reader would be...I can find a forum myself.

I do see that this is an important validation to TGPs place in the guitar world. Coupled with other factors, such as the webzine, etc.. it appears this humble web-forum for guitar geeks is gaining importance in the world.

But it seems I've stepped into a conversation about something beyond simple initial reactions. I'll gracefully step out of it now. I'll be behind the couch if anybody needs me.
:hide

[Scott Peterson]

As I said, no offense meant to the original posters. Nothing disrespectful was intended. My point was, it sounded like a bunch of guys chatting on a forum, not what you would expect from a professional publication.

But it seems I've stepped into a conversation about something else. I'll gracefully step out of it now....
:hide

No, not really. The whole spread is exactly guys chatting on a forum, it's a separate section inside the magazine for some TGP threads. Nothing more. Or less. No advertising sold there, no commercialization, no anything.

I just thought it was pretty, umm, unpolite to comment about the posters. They were not, are not and will not be writing copy for PG. You didn't criticize the content, you criticized the fellow TGP members. Hence, faceplam.

It is just guys chatting on a forum.

And in contrast to the stuff you normally see in magazines, I think it is COOL because you can log on to TGP, find those threads and get into the conversation if you see one that interests you.

So yea, perhaps you are stepping into the minefield a bit, but criticize the content, not the posters.

[KRosser]

I saw the layout - honestly, I think it looks a bit weird from PG's perspective...by the time the 'greatest hits' hit the newsstand they're old posts...

But like I said, PG is not something I care much about - I remain cautiously optimistic about the effects this will have on TGP down the road.

[Brian Scherzer]

Those who are dubious can feel free to blame me if things go wrong. I have literally spent hours on the phone over a period of months talking to the CEO of Premier Guitar. MANY ideas were discussed during that time. Some of the ideas that I presented were rejected by him, and some of his ideas were rejected by me. I tend to be guided by my gut instinct and then try my best to check my instinct to see if my gut if off base. The reason that you see any kind of relationship between TGP and PG is because I trust their CEO.

We discussed legal agreements and, in the end, we chose a "handshake" instead. That would NOT have happened with any other publication.....and if there would have been a legal agreement, it would have stipulated that the agreement would end if their CEO ever left PG. In other words, I trust him.

Those of you who know me from the old PRS Forum likely put more faith in my word and in who I am than those who haven't known me for long......or don't know me at all. I chose to close that forum rather than see Paul Smith put in a position where he would have to ask me to do things that I wouldn't be willing to do.....censorship or losing that forum's independence. It was a matter of honor for me, and years later I still believe that I did the right thing.

I don't ask for blind faith in my judgment. What I do ask is for some of you to be a little less cynical. Every move is questioned, even before the facts are known. There are some who seek to believe the worst in my motivations and I will state that this is more you than me! As I read through this thread I find a few posts that pre-judge the folks at PG. Yes, I know that this affiliation benefits them. They know that too. They also know that it benefits TGP......maybe not YOU as an individual, but TGP in general.

There are still many things to be explored and discussed. For instance, many of the original members here remember with fondness the old PRS Forum Events that we held in a cooperative effort with PRS. We got a chance to meet each other in person, to have over 100 members manage to do a member's jam session. Heck, the first year, Paul Smith joined us for the jam. The main thing is that we got together, had fun, learned more than we knew about PRS, and became friends in the flesh.....not just online.

Many have asked if we would be willing to do TGP get-togethers. Without a company like PRS to defray the costs and provide the reason to come together, I want to make sure that a gathering of "the Huns" (yes...you guys!) can be a success. I have yet to broach this subject with PG's staff, but I suspect that a combination of what TGP and PG can pull together would assure that TGP events can be done, and done well. Some could care less, but there are many who would like to have the chance to meet the real people behind the many user names here. My job as managing partner is to use my best judgment in plotting the course that this website will take over the next few years.

Do I make mistakes? Pardon the political implications, but "You betcha'"! Is the decision to form a relationship with PG a mistake? Time will tell, and you can judge me AFTER the data is in. I don't mind the questioning of my decisions. I do find it difficult to read some of the stones being cast at PG's staff, including inferences that any affiliation, no matter how loose, will result in some sort of subversive commercialization of TGP. Those months of conversation were concentrated heavily on how to AVOID the kind of scenarios that some of you are concerned about. As I stated, there is NO financial tie between TGP and PG. The collaboration, in my opinion, gives added strength to both sides.

The suspicion that this might be about money is wrong. We have been approached in the past about selling TGP and all offers were refused without even asking "how much?". I would hope that members would give us more credit than is sometimes the case, but I do understand the concern expressed by some. Judge the decision made by the harm done and/or the good that comes out of it. We did not sell out. We added the possibility of being able to do some things that we might never have done on our own. We chose who we were willing to talk to with a lot of care and research. The rest comes down to my belief in my gut feeling that I can trust the folks at PG. They are more like "us" than any other publication. In fact, many of their readers are our members. There is common interest. Where there may be differences, there will simply be nothing done. Where there is commonality, we will discuss the "how do we get it done". We would not have agreed to anything if we didn't think there was benefit to members. Not every member will benefit, but I can't help that. There are too many different personalities among us to please everyone. As I said, my job is to do my best for the membership as a group. Whether I did a good or bad job will be determined by future events.

[2leod]

As I said, my job is to do my best for the membership as a group. Whether I did a good or bad job will be determined by future events.

It's no stretch for me to see that you have toiled and sweated to make this place what it is, and I truly appreciate it. Your sense of doing what's best has been solid so far - I trust it FWIW...
:)

[shaneygoo]

why stop there, i vote for a guitar tri lateral commision

tgp
pg
hc

cash in on hc for ad revenue, pg magazine skills and tgp for the forum

[groutfulone]

hmmm... good cop/bad cop. Maybe the good cop should handle all further inquiries into the matter.

Good luck. You run a very fine forum, which at least has a modicum of decency that I have not found (nor contibuted to) elsewhere. The most fascinating thing to me is that PG seems to be the first gear magazine to figure out how to use an online forum to try and increase its subscription base without blatant spamming.

I don't question yours or Brian's motive, but I will ALWAYS question the motives of a corporation seeking profit; and I would think that a certain amount of suspicion and analysis would be expected from a community filled with artists and performers.

I don't really see too much bad that will come from this, but if it scares away many of the professionals who contribute to TGP, then I will loose much of the source of immense knowledge that I came here to find, which would have me question why I would want to subscribe.
I am here to learn and to share what little I know, not argue and win, so here's to success :BEER

[Jahn]

well my copy of PG came in the mail, i checked out TGP's 2 page spread, and it was good stuff. heck, a lot of that content i didn't even know was here, it totally slipped by me...and i thought i lived here! so kudos for scoring worthy content for PG and TGP readers alike, wherever the twain shall meet.

[Glide]

I think it's pretty awesome.

[shaneygoo]

link to the digital tgp pm article?

[Glide]

It's posted above. Post 139.

And I am sure you can find it at www.premierguitar.com (http://www.premierguitar.com)

[stark]

The "Managing Partners" of TGP have put in years of hard work and money into making what we have today. In doing that they have created a product with it's own intrinsic value. This is the reason people have offered to purchase it. To their credit they have declined. A sense of community has been fostered and many people have contributed to the success of TGP, but let us not forget this is a business that needs money to function and is governed by the "Managing Partners". So all this debate on the PG deal is valid, but we were given the option to decline participation. I chose this route for now. I'm really interested to see how these potential business opportunities get realized in the future, and how that affects the fragile community we have built up over the years. I'm a cynic and don't hold out much hope if things take a turn for the commercial. I for one didn't sign on for that rodeo. An interesting case study. Well....back to the woodshed.

[Brian Scherzer]

link to the digital tgp pm article?

I think that the June digital issue comes out tomorrow or the next day. Right now the May issue is the current issue.

......I'm a cynic and don't hold out much hope if things take a turn for the commercial. I for one didn't sign on for that rodeo. An interesting case study. Well....back to the woodshed.

Wonderful post that likely speaks for many of our members. We are aware that there is a point that we cannot cross without damaging our credibility with our members. TGP became a success because it was not corporate owned, has tried to remain as free from outside influences as possible, and because we are sometimes seen as "lesser evils" when compared to some of the other discussion sites. TGP will not be the same if we lose the trust of our membership......which is why we announce things and try to have an open dialogue, even when it kind of sucks to do so!

[newking70]

is premier guitar an online magazine? i don't think i've seen it on the newsstand?

[Schtomp]

The first issue with TGP content landed in my email inbox yesterday, pretty cool to see, nothing controversial at all, just a few ordinary TGP threads.

[aleclee]

link to the digital tgp pm article?

http://digital.premierguitar.com/premierguitar/200906_1/?folio=92

[Frankenstrat2]

Brian, Scott, and all other interested parties-
I withheld participation in this conversation until I had read all 10+ pages of this thread so far, and also viewed the new PG/TGP spread. I followed this debate/controversy/newsflash with great interest, since I continue to have grave concerns over the future of the TGP community.

I imagine most of you reading this have come to know me- for those who don't, I'll point out that I first came to TGP at the invitation of LeonC, now one of the Mods, and that my membership here dates back to the Pre-TGP/PRS Forum days. I have actually met both Brian and Scott in person at the final PRS Forum event. I also shared a stage with Brian at that jam. I like to think we have a long history.
For my part, I have gone out of my way to support TGP in every way imaginable, from my Gold membership, to voluntary contributions, to creating NYC ToneFests and ToneFest DVDs where we donated all of the proceeds after expenses to the TGP operating fund.
That participation was on a self-initiated volunteer basis, as my way of paying forward the great rewards I enjoyed as a result of my participation in the TGP community.

I am fortunate to be able to travel often, and over the years I have met many TGP members in person, and have forged many friendships and musical kinships as a result.
Although there are many more of you that I have never met in person, I feel I know many of the most active TGPers anyway, through the many interactions we have shared here on TGP over the years.

I am also quite familiar with Premier Guitar Magazine. At least one of the staffers is a very close friend going back more years than the magazines existence. I have had a PG subscription since its inception. I have interacted with their staff members at the NY Amp Shows, and at NAMM shows that I have attended.

So- whatever my opinions are, no one can say I have no idea what I am talking about, although you still may choose to think so.

When Brian & Scott announced the creation of Old School Guitar and the Praise and Worship Forums, I was interested from a member’s standpoint in what effect, if any, it may have on our beloved TGP.
I was not 'alarmed' at that point- simply....aware.
I figured that the P&W Forum was a mechanism to remove religion from TGP, and give it its own home, away from those who might find that direction a poor mix with the 'purity' of TGPs non- religious, non-political directives. I had no problem with that.
I checked out Old School Guitar, and thought it was a bit redundant to TGP and less engaging, but I liked the interviews Brian had posted with Jack Pearson and Garth Webber.

I approached Brian and suggested that he should consider continuing the interview series, but instead change the focus to some of the most deserving, yet under-appreciated talent who are also contributing members of TGP. Brian's response was positive, and to my surprise he to invited me to do the interviews and submit them for digital publication. I agreed.

I was in the process of doing so when Brian and Scott first announced the TGP sponsorship of the Montreal Guitar Show, and then announced the inception of the TGP Webzine, along with the announcement that TGP would now accept advertising revenue from select entities as they see fit.

At that point, I also learned that another long-time TGP member (and ToneFest participant) Jackaroo (Jack Devine) was in the process of finishing up what would be the first of a series of Gear reviews for the new TGP Webzine.
Apparently Brian also planned to use the interviews I was in the process of completing for the new Webzine rather than Old School Guitar.

I followed the posted TGP announcement of the Webzine with great interest, and quite a bit of trepidation. Frankly, I was very surprised that the general reaction to that announcement was met universally with nothing but acclaim, and seemingly no concern whatsoever with the impending commercialization of TGP. My personal interpretation was that this was a stunning departure from the past, and marked the beginning of a new era for TGP.
Privately and publicly, Brian has maintained that Webzine advertising is to be limited only to small struggling, independent companies that have been long-time friends to TGP. Brian promised that the Webzine is to be totally independent from the TGP forums, and the Forums would not change in any respect. All of those representations appear to be accurate, at least so far.

While at that point I chose to confine my reservations and negativity to a series of private messages with Brian, I don’t believe I am betraying any confidences to now air my concerns publicly on this thread. I don’t think I ever bothered to include Scott in the conversations although he may already be aware of my opinions. If not, I apologize.

Although my interaction with Brian was totally civil and based on intellectual and business decisions, ultimately we agreed to disagree. I told Brian that since the Webzine was to be a commercial enterprise, I felt that editorial contributions to a commercial enterprise should be compensated in some form.
Privately, I asked Jack Devine about this. Jack said it didn’t bother him that he was not being compensated.

For my part, I respectfully withdrew my offer to contribute to the Webzine without some token of payment. Initially I presented it as a sort of joke- poking fun at the idea of giving something for nothing. I first referred to it in my private messages to Brian as an ‘Honorarium’. I think he was insulted. Brian absolutely refused, rather than even being curious about what I might consider fair compensation.
Had he thought to ask, I might have said $5.00 per published submission, or asked that he waive all or part of future TGP subscription fees. Instead, I think Brian was put-off that I would even expect or request to be compensated in any way for contributing content to the TGP Webzine. Obviously this could be a dangerous precedent to set for an entity that seems to be transforming from ‘never has-been-for-profit’ to ‘possibly-for-profit, if not now, perhaps at some time in the future’.

Its important to note that Brian’s rejection of my position seemed to be based on his assertion that no one has ever made any money from TGP. Justifiably, Brian, Scott, and a small handful of people have devoted much time and money, sweat and blood into keeping TGP alive. Brian and Scott own and control it, and it is totally theirs to do with as they please. I don't deny them the right to potentially profit from the fruits of their labor now, or in the future.

However, I was surprised that after resounding public applause and private silence regarding the impending commercialization of TGP through the Webzine, there was much more of an uproar here on this thread over TGP partnering with PG, and permitting/encouraging them to re-print selected posts. Once again- the concept remains the same for me- supplying free content to a commercial enterprise. In this case, both TGP and PG will benefit from our free contributions, but the bigger question now has become- 'So what’s in it for us?' In 10 pages, I haven't seen an appealing answer to that question anywhere.

As I experienced with Brian privately, its apparent in this thread that both Brian and Scott are sensitive to questioning and criticism on these related topics. However, in the end, they are justly empowered to make any and all final decisions without even disclosing or opening them to debate. Granted- they own these entities, and there is no need for conversation at all- it could easily be eliminated. I give them credit for taking the heat, but also subtract points for being a bit too thin-skinned. ‘Thou doth protest too much…’

Understand that I take nothing away from Brian and Scott, the mods and volunteers who have worked tirelessly and endlessly to keep this community alive. But I cannot help from worrying about what the long-term direction of TGP will become once the advertising revenue, commercial enterprise, and unspoken demands and expectations of silent partners on handshake deals begin to bring pressure on the owners of the Gear Pages and its offspring.

While they stand resolute in their conviction that they can continue to remain fiercely independent and unspoiled despite the changes and temptations that may result, I wish I could be as confident. Time will tell. All we can do is watch and wonder.

For my part, had I wished to become a staff writer for PG, I would have applied for the job.
Brian, please block my posts from appearing in PG.
FWIW- I really like PG. It’s the best mag out there by far. Great people. Same for TGP. I just worry where its all heading.
Respectfully,
Barry Weber

[realityczech]

Wow!

[Scott Peterson]

Barry,

Fair enough. But I feel you are dead wrong on many fronts. The articles submitted for the Webzine are done so with the clear understanding there is no payment for them. Your asking for payment will indeed get you a 'no'. Premier Guitar isn't publishing those articles. So you wouldn't be a 'staff writer for PG'.

For as well as you think you know Brian or I, from the above post it appears to me that you don't really know either of us at all.

That's not being thin skinned nor protesting, just disagreeing and expressing my opinion.

Can you explain the 'commercial enterprise'? Do you mean the advertising on the Webzine? The ad dollars being charged are $100 for an ad on the webzine. It goes into the operating fund for TGP. The small builders and specialty shops need TGP's help and have asked for it for years. Many of them are folks that were at the Amp Show. Folks you do know.

Companies and retailers that buy an ad have no more influence on how TGP is run or moderated and can bring no 'pressure' on TGP to bias how TGP is run and moderated, sorry. I find that your most interesting theory in the entire post. What pressure can they bring to bear? That they'll pull their ad? Sorry, that's not pressure.

We don't moderate opinions. We moderate member behavior and the TOS. The insinuation that we'd bend the rules for advertisers and 'expectations of silent partners' is humorous. We have no silent 'partners'. I'd like to know who you think our silent partners are. PG owns nothing related to TGP, has no leverage to bear upon TGP and there is no financial gain for TGP, Brian, myself and the moderator team with PG in any way.

It's pretty easy to read between the lines you just submitted; you have a right to your thoughts and opinions. You have a right to express them. I have every right to disagree with the underlying and delicately stated assertions are you making. And I do.

IMHO your conclusions and insinuations are incorrect. There will never be an ad or banner on The Gear Page forums on my watch. And I own an Advertising Agency and have made my living in that industry since 1988. Advertising has no place on TGP Forums.

Barry, I've sat with you at the PRS Forum Events once or twice. I've emailed back and forth with you and I've spoken to you on the phone a few times. I don't claim to know you though. And I can tell you that you don't really know me.

There's no anger, showmanship, 'got cha's', or emotion attached to any of the words I am posting here. I'm just responding to your post.

Have a great weekend.

[realityczech]

Food for thought

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising

[Scott Peterson]

Food for thought

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising

Food for thought:

http://www.bioharmony.co.za/FileAssets/StoreFront/3/3.jpg

:D

[realityczech]

Food for thought:

http://www.bioharmony.co.za/FileAssets/StoreFront/3/3.jpg

:D


I read that book!

[dk123123dk]

Speaking of books. It would be cool if someone took the info from the Gear Page, and compiled it into a book. Wiring diagrams, popular mods, lists of suppliers. Sell a few pages of adds to cover the costs of the book, and sell the book here only for $50. With the profits from the book, you should have enough cash to run the servers, and provide free emporium usage/avatars/pm for long time members without subscription.

Just an idea. I bet that book would sell out pretty fast if it was the true encyclopedia of guitar brought to you by TGP.

dk

[Jon Silberman]

I haven't opined at all yet on this topic, either. I joined the original PRS Forum in 1999, was a mod for a while (until I couldn't take it anymore, leaving me with a firm, reality-based grasp of how difficult it is to create and run an entity of TGP's nature) and have participated ever since.

Here's my take.

My life is extremely full. I don't have the time or inclination to intervene or stress over everything. So my thoughtful approach to the recent TGP directions is "wait and see."

I agree generally with Barry on many though not all of his observations and share the general concern that, just like with the proverbial two frogs, one thrown into hot water who jumped out and saved himself, the second placed in a comfortable, cool pot of water which was then heated slowly while the frog sat there relaxed until he boiled to death, TGP could be headed the way of frog #2 with the ongoing and to-come changes. I guess I'll just have to wait and see.

I don't really care about the Webzine, guitar shows, or columns appearing in guitar mags (the info. in them is already public, I just don't care if someone else reprints it). As of now, I'm not experiencing any differences in the forum which I do care about. I paid for a $50 membership not because anyone forced me to but for two simple reasons: I empathize with Brian and Scott's challenges running this place and, every month, I get at least $50 in tangible benefits from here. E.g., this month, I learned of a phone-order only 20% off sale at 1-2-3 music and saved $60 just like that (snaps fingers).

So, for now, I'm the satisfied frog in the slowly-heating kettle. I won't jump out early like the 1st frog but neither will I boil to death. It's just a forum. One day, I may wake up, log on, see the ads, experience some new content restrictions to satisfy the advertisers, and bolt. But that day is not now.

[Glide]

Good post Jon.

I agree and think Brian and Scott should turn TGP into whatever they want - it's theirs. If they want to run ads on it I say go for it. Commercialize the Hell out of it if you want. And I'm also a paying member.

The bottom line is that if this place turns into something that a particular member does not like, then ...are you ready for it?


.....LEAVE!

Really, the equation is that easy. Don't whine, and b*itch and moan and cry and worry and wimper. Get your toys and leave. Go some place that you like, or make a place like it yourself. Forum software is cheap and extremely simple to install on a server - just an FTP client and you are all set sport.

It is simple Adam Smith Laissez faire economics. If enough people leave, Brian and Scott will have to re-think their strategy. If enough people stay and more come in then more power to them.

I say put TGP threads in Guitar Player, Guitar World, Modern Day Knitting, Sports Illustrated, Playboy...I could really give a rat's ...

I actually think it would be a good way to keep the good ole boy network in check with an influx of new thought.

Market this place to the hilt - explode the servers - Make the modding really fun.

[TNJ]

I think the whole idea is a good one, and I saw that TDPRI is also involved with PG in a similar fashion.

When Mike Molenda (and a few other staffers) of GP appeared here, and we got nicely mentioned (in a small way) through the mag, I felt proud that this place was getting some nice exposure in print. As a resource on all things gearwise, this website has few peers. I'm glad it's here, and dont see any negative impact from an informal partnership with PG...aside from increasing our already mushrooming growth rate with new members and taxing the servers a bit more. If it garners PG more subscribers...well, I balance that with the increased exposure alot of our TGP members, who are luthiers/amp builders/etc., will get. If it helps get their names out there, and they stay employed putting more product on the market, so much the better.
I perceive the members here who are not so excited about the arrangement may share my small concern about burgeoning membership and increased crashes,etc. For those who are worried about the royalty for generating print in a for profit gear magazine...well, if they are worried enough, the fix is easy in my mind. Cancel your subscription (if you have one), and go into lurk mode...or go elsewhere altogether.
I'm not being flip...I respect the input of those naysayers, and think it is a good thing to pose an opposing opinion, or even critically question the moves of TGP.
Nothing wrong with that at all, IMO. I just dont share those opinions myself. I know Scott and Brian too (in my fashion), and trust their motivation implicitly. I thoroughly believe that they have captained this ship (with all manner of crazy crewmembers...hey, alot of us here are musicians...'nuff said) in a fully professional and skilled manner. The results (growth/knowledge base/etc.) speak for themselves. I feel that they only want to share a good thing with more like minded folks out there...I've been doing that with my musician friends for years. And I havent gotten paid for it.

My .02,


S.
j

[Scott Peterson]

One thing I will add again, though I have said it before.

I might not agree with some folks at all, I might have issues with what they type and post (here, there or elsewhere) but one thing remains utterly constant with me: I am deeply thankful and respectful of all that are passionate enough to present their opinions; care enough to take the time to express them and man enough to stand up for them when someone else (including me) does not agree with them.

Without members that are that involved in any community, the community is that much poorer.

Not everything you read in a given post by anyone is factual; and many times folks express their subjective opinion as objective accepted facts. That's human nature.

In the end, I've tried to not so much just jump on folks not toeing the line with what Brian and I have tried to do for TGP or the ways we have done them. The folks that participate on TGP, that engage with the community on different levels are what make this place what it was, is and will be. We are very aware of those facts.

I am a strong willed individual and sometimes on forums I can come off wrong. But to anyone that knows me, what I type is pretty much devoid of the emotional hysteria that many ascribe to me. It is simply not the case. I type the way I talk and I call things the way I see them. I'm a 'boil it down' type of guy that doesn't always pull his punches and that indeed rubs some folks the wrong way.

I'm not changing though; and one thing I've always ascribed to is that I am willing to be wrong no matter how deeply I feel about any given topic.

As for the feelings some have expressed over the 'direction' of TGP; I'd simply point out that owners, administrators and moderators do not control the content or opinions of the membership. We have over 7,000+ new posts on TGP every single day. 365 days a year. We control the behavior and enforce the TOS as part of our mandate to the members. That's as far as it goes. We've expressed ourselves one way over the life of this forum - no corporate control, independent of any outside force to influence the way we direct the membership through moderation of behavior.

We cannot influence the direction or the content or the subject of member's posts. That's the ultimate red herring. There are a team of less than 10 moderators that carry the day, every day, on TGP. They are one of the finest crews on the Net that do it that I've ever seen balanced against the standard of behavior we expect to uphold on the Net.

That this crew (of which I'll point out LeonC did in fact leave over a year ago, he is no longer a moderator and has not been for a long time) would be on the take or somehow given a mandate of direction from Brian and I to bias how the page is moderated because of some company out there has advertising dollars at the low rate we charge for the webzine or pumps bucks into Premier Guitar (though I'll point out again that the TGP section has NO advertising in it) is flat 100%, unequivocally wrong. We pull posts because they violate our standard of civil behavior or violate our TOS. That fact remains our driving force.

As for the future direction and folks' worries; well, I'll point out that those sorts of opinions are always there and have been expressed pretty much since day one here. When this forum first split off from the PRS Forum, those 'worries' were there that we'd change.

Well, we are still here. We don't plan on going away. We have not sold out to any corporate being. We do what we do the way we do and if our track record isn't enough for you to go on yet... it probably never will be.

I was the kid that rode my bike up to the music store every weekend to hang out with musicians, talk gear, music, performing and learn from others. I'm still that kid and that was the entire goal here, to keep that sort of musician's community alive. I'll fight for that every step of the way for as long as I possibly can.

[Leonc]

As long as the Gear Page (which to me, means the forums--that's the heritage and thing of true value here, IMHO) remain free of advertising and commercial interest (to the extent that the mods and admins can keep it out), then TGP remains something of great value.

Personally, I don't care that much about other people's gear reviews (and haven't in a long time) so that doesn't matter much to me, personally. I guess if I was in the market for something being reviewed, it could be very helpful though. As long as the reviews are done by people with no commercial interest in the items being reviewed and bring some "objectivity creds" to the table, then that's all good AFAIC as well.

As for PG getting to point out threads to its readers...it does not strike me as an inherently commercial or corrupting kind of policy or influence. As for benefits to GP members...I don't see much there per se.

The only downside that I see is (if you can call it that) is more foot traffic through TGP...looky-loos who choose not to participate in the community (or worse, trolls who dive in to stir @%# up). But...it's also possible that the "foot traffic" may bring in a few very cool folks who (apparently, have been living in caves :) ) weren't yet aware of TGP, but bring some valuable discussion to the table.

[Chiba]

That this crew would be on the take or somehow given a mandate of direction from Brian and I to bias how the page is moderated because of some company out there has advertising dollars at the low rate we charge for the webzine or pumps bucks into Premier Guitar is flat 100%, unequivocally wrong.
Without speaking for the rest of the mod team, I can attest to this: if Brian or Scott were to "let" TGP "go commercial" like some people here are worried about, the mods would be the first to holler at them.

There's been no hollering from me. I support Brian & Scott 100% on this.

Nobody knows all the conversation, discussion, and - yes - disagreement that goes on behind the scenes. We rarely agree 100% immediately on any given issue, but in the end we support each other and TGP because it's our home in cyberspace.

--chiba

[Brian Scherzer]

I'm late to "the party" as a result of the luxury of being able to sleep late this morning. I'll try to keep my response brief (a tough thing for me!).

Barry.........Your post mentions two things that, to me, seem to be in conflict. One part of your post talks about your fears of commercialization. Another part talks about how I seemed to be offended when you asked for an honorarium and that I refused without even asking you what you had in mind. Do you not see my reaction to be consistent? I have posted before that we have been approached to sell TGP and that I didn't even ask "how much" before saying "no thanks, TGP is not for sale". There was an offer during the past week to discuss selling TGP. As before, I declined and I simply stated (again) that TGP is not for sale. I see my response to pay you as consistent with my response when I am offered money to sell TGP.

As far as the ads we allow on the webzine, please keep in mind that 6 of those ads were without fees and were given to the companies that donated gear in the past for our TGP raffles. The webzine is another part of TGP that increases bandwidth. We felt that it was not a conflict of interest to allow small companies to help pay for that bandwidth by offering them the opportunity for some exposure for a truly nominal fee that would pay for the extra costs we incur because of the webzine. The fear that they might wield influence because they pay TGP something is the same fear that was expressed when we had Contributing Members and, now, Supporting Members......that these people would be allowed to function under a different (looser) set of rules than we apply to members who do not have supporting memberships. If you were to ask how many people with supporting memberships have been given infractions or have been suspended, you would see that this is NOT the case. Just yesterday I was asked to refund a supporting membership payment by a supporting member who was given an infraction. I did so without asking any questions.

As to why we agreed to allow PG to run a spread that covers threads on TGP that they selected, I thought that it would be something that TGP members might enjoy......a sort of validation that what TGP members write is considered important enough for a magazine/webzine to be interested in. Neither TGP, or Scott and I, receive any money for this. The "benefit" for our members, as I see it, is that of pride that their writings might appear in a well-regarded publication. If this increases PG's subscription base, I'm fine with that. It is none of our business because any TGP member who chooses to subscribe to any magazine is none of our business. We receive nothing if a TGP member subscribes to PG.

It never dawned on me that some TGP members would feel that their written words on TGP are of such value that they should be paid for same if a magazine chose to reprint those words. My fault for not thinking about that. I did the best I could by giving any members who felt that way an "opt out". It's the best I could do. I tend not to think about every single member. Instead, I think about the membership as a whole. In my thinking when I agreed to the PG thing, I felt that the vast majority of members would get a kick out of the concept. I saw no harm......and I still think that the majority like the idea. Further, it was/is my hope that our members will be more thoughtful in their posting style, knowing that there is a chance that their words will be in a magazine. If this happens, it would be a wonderful thing for us.

I looked at the number of visitors this morning in our site analytics data. There has been no increase in visitors since the PG spread came out. I believed then, and still believe, that most people who like to participate in discussion sites already know that we exist. If we get some new members to TGP I will be fine. It's not like PG's readers will suddenly decide to rush to TGP.

By the way, I pay $199 out of my pocket now to keep Old School Guitar running each month. The first few months were covered by supporting memberships. There have been no supporting memberships purchased for the last few months, so I pay for it myself......and receive nothing. It is what we did with TGP for quite a while, but I was paying more out of pocket for that than I pay for Old School Guitar. Somewhere, sometime, it would be nice to get credit from you for the years of hard work put in, and the money that went from our households, to give members a place to hang out and "chat", including the PRS Forum and TGP. There is no sin in wanting to not have to pay out of pocket each month so that others can have a cyber community, especially considering the many hours we put into keeping this place going every week.

P.S...........Please send me a PM to not allow your posts to be reprinted on PG. Don't rely on the memory of a 56 year old! The PM would help me remember to exclude your posts when I review the threads that PG has chosen.

[Frankenstrat2]

Brian-
In addition to your above post, there is a PM from you with different content that I replied to in detail, this time CC'ing Scott.
I'm happy to make it public as well, if you wish.
We all go back a long way, and the other members who are interested should know that there is absolutely no animosity, intrigue or secrets here. Just a discussion of the state of things now and what the future might hold for this Forum, its owners, and its members.

[Scott Peterson]

Barry,

This discussion via PM is better left to PM IMHO. I've replied to you there.

I think the basic lines being discussed off the boards are fairly obvious to even the casual reader of this thread. It's hashing out off the boards is much better served off the boards. The PM function serves a very real purpose.

The assertion in your post above that the content of Brian's PM is in any way not in tune with the message in his post is wrong. Stop, please, playing the game on the boards here. This isn't gamesmanship. The only 'intrigue' is that you don't like even a whiff of anything remotely commercial in any way shape or form. But this board has allowed manufacturers and retailers to post here since day one. By association, by your definition, that makes the forums 'commercial'. Which, to my view is just plain not true.

Please let's continue further discussion where it should be done - via PM (after you have the final word on this in your next post here; which I expect you must have).

[OrangeAD30TC]

Speaking of books. It would be cool if someone took the info from the Gear Page, and compiled it into a book. Wiring diagrams, popular mods, lists of suppliers. Sell a few pages of adds to cover the costs of the book, and sell the book here only for $50. With the profits from the book, you should have enough cash to run the servers, and provide free emporium usage/avatars/pm for long time members without subscription.

Just an idea. I bet that book would sell out pretty fast if it was the true encyclopedia of guitar brought to you by TGP.

dk

This makes zero sense. The only people who will pay $50 for what we already have for free on this forum are people who are giving to keep the forum running. We already know there aren't enough of those people out there and that is why we needed the subscription model.

You really want to sell for $50 a book with a table of contents, when the search function is free to all members even ones without a subscription.

[Frankenstrat2]

I'm content to have said my piece.
No gamesmanship on my part.
We still agree to disagree.
b.

[Brian Scherzer]

Because I am concerned that your comment about my PM to you might make people think that I have said something different to you in private than I said in public, you have my permission to paste that PM in a post as long as it is the entire PM.

[OrangeAD30TC]

Because I am concerned that your comment about my PM to you might make people think that I have said something different to you in private than I said in public, you have my permission to paste that PM in a post as long as it is the entire PM.

Bravo Brian.

[fullerplast]

I can certainly see Barry's points regarding a "for-profit" entity making use of a "not-for-profit" entity's content without compensation.

I also like Jon's frog analogy for how change like this often happens.....

As the song says: "Money Changes Everything".....Often if it doesn't, it's not because it won't, or it can't....it's simply that the numbers aren't right yet.;)

Is TGP the exception? Maybe, maybe not....time will tell. :YinYang

[Frankenstrat2]

At Brian's request:
Brians P.M.:
Barry...........First, I would beg you to please send me a PM that asks me to keep your posts from being printed by PG. It would make my life easier because there are 4 other requests and I can simply look at who made them (by user name) each month when previewing what PG wants to use. I don't trust my memory like I used to and would be helped by having the names in one place to look at.

On another subject, I am not offended by your post regarding your concerns about TGP/PG and our webzine and ads. I admit to confusion because, in one breath you say you fear commercialization of TGP and then you mention wanting an honorarium. To me, "honorarium" means payment. Had you asked for a free Gold Supporting Membership you would have gotten a different response.

Finally, I hope that you read my reply to your post. What I don't feel that I got credit for in your communications is how much I have given of my time and money for the past 12 years running the PRS Forum and TGP......and now OSG. I have not been, and am not now, wealthy. I am a psychologist who....by choice....has worked ONLY with non-profits. First at a community mental health center (the absolute lowest paying job a psychologist can have) and now for a non-profit skilled nursing home that provides high levels of skilled care to a community that is 65% Medicaid (which means that the nursing home loses money on 65% of the residents). I turned down offers of employment from for-profit companies that would have led to a 40% increase in my income.

So, yes, I get a bit testy when someone questions my motivations. The initial discussions with PG were about having them host and run the TGP webzine. It is a further drain on my time with family and a life away from a computer monitor. In the end, I decided to keep the webzine as specific to TGP as is possible......focusing on our members and what they do while, hopefully, providing readers with worthwhile material.

I did my best to set an example by writing the articles on Pearson and Webber. I received no compensation for that and I paid for the CDs I received from both over the years. Even the DVD review on Chuck's instructional DVD was paid for (in full) by both Scott Auld and myself......after being told that we could have it for free.

I'm not sure why I am defending myself here, but I am. In my opinion, you judge me incorrectly. In light of your request to be paid an honorarium.....a request made by nobody else, I am at a loss in trying to understand where you are coming from.

My response, CC'd to Scott:
Hi Brian
I guess it was said best in the last election, and created a major distraction and brou-haha in the process-
"You can put lipstick on a pig but its still a pig"
No matter how much you gloss it over and defend it, as soon as the outstretched hand took its first dollar from an advertiser, you had crossed the line to a commercial enterprise. You can defend it, contain it, restrict it, and control it to the extent of your abilities, but the fact remains- the lamb became a pig, for better or worse.
I never said that it is worse, just that it *is*. You cannot flatly deny what *is*, unless you took part in the Bush administration.
I think that both you and Scott have done yourselves and us a disservice by continuing to say 'Ba-ah-ah' rather than 'Oink'.
Scott seems to have read my post and seen innuendo and accusation. Not the case. Simply calling a pig by its proper name. Right now you are a skinny, undernourished baby piglet. Someday, you may grow into a big fat hog. Eventually even the prize-winning hogs get taken to the slaughterhouse and sliced up into bite-size pieces to become tasty morsels on the table of the consumer. That is the way of the world, consumerism, and advertising economics. Scott is in the business. Please don't try to tell me he doesn't understand exactly what I am saying.
As for me, I don't really mind playing in the pigpen. I'm fine wallowing around in the slop. The vast majority of other little piglets are just there to eat and roll around in their own crap. But once other little piglets volunteer to help fill the feedbucket, you should find a way to toss them a corncob.
There is no free ride, no free lunch. As soon as you took that first dollar, you are a commercial enterprise. There should be some commesurate form of compensation and acknowledgement for those that supply resaleable content in any form- photographic, editorial, expertise- even if that compensation is token, meager or illusionary in lieu of cash value (titles are always good 'Contributing Editor', etc.)
We are all too old and gristled to beat our chests over how much we have sacrificed to make our dreams come true and pursue our beloved hobbies or vocations. I won't bore you.
I'm just imploring you to call a spade a spade, a pig a pig, and to pet the ones who help fill the trough.
FWIW, I have sat on the commercial side of the aisle in the Gear Industry, going so far as to envision regional, national, and even international events based around the consumerism of guitar gear- an extension of the ToneFest/Amp Show concept. We assembled a fledgling Board of Directors, investors and advisors who were interested in pursuing the project. In my mind it was to be a not-for-profit enterprise, along the lines of Consumer Reports, with a revenue stream that would be self-supporting, and salary compensation for those who devoted the most time and energy to its success and growth. It died on the vine because it became apparent that there were a few individuals that wanted to only use the concept as a jumping-off-point to create a cash cow, milk it, and then sell it to the highest bidder.

So there is no innuendo in my position. You SHOULD find a way to make money. You SHOULD be paid for your efforts. You should NOT make any denial of your right to do so. But you should confirm to your constituency that you have taken the first baby step in that direction, and it is unknown exactly what will follow. And don't make promises you can't keep. The road to hell is paved with....

No hard feelings please fellas?
I'm sorry its so hard for you to understand where I'm coming from.
b.

[Glide]

This makes zero sense. The only people who will pay $50 for what we already have for free on this forum are people who are giving to keep the forum running. We already know there aren't enough of those people out there and that is why we needed the subscription model.

You really want to sell for $50 a book with a table of contents, when the search function is free to all members even ones without a subscription.

Yeah, but the tops of your legs get hot with the laptop when you sit on the throne feeding the catfish.

A book would be nice.

:D

[OrangeAD30TC]

At Brian's request:
Brians P.M.:
Barry...........First, I would beg you to please send me a PM that asks me to keep your posts from being printed by PG. It would make my life easier because there are 4 other requests and I can simply look at who made them (by user name) each month when previewing what PG wants to use. I don't trust my memory like I used to and would be helped by having the names in one place to look at.

On another subject, I am not offended by your post regarding your concerns about TGP/PG and our webzine and ads. I admit to confusion because, in one breath you say you fear commercialization of TGP and then you mention wanting an honorarium. To me, "honorarium" means payment. Had you asked for a free Gold Supporting Membership you would have gotten a different response.

Finally, I hope that you read my reply to your post. What I don't feel that I got credit for in your communications is how much I have given of my time and money for the past 12 years running the PRS Forum and TGP......and now OSG. I have not been, and am not now, wealthy. I am a psychologist who....by choice....has worked ONLY with non-profits. First at a community mental health center (the absolute lowest paying job a psychologist can have) and now for a non-profit skilled nursing home that provides high levels of skilled care to a community that is 65% Medicaid (which means that the nursing home loses money on 65% of the residents). I turned down offers of employment from for-profit companies that would have led to a 40% increase in my income.

So, yes, I get a bit testy when someone questions my motivations. The initial discussions with PG were about having them host and run the TGP webzine. It is a further drain on my time with family and a life away from a computer monitor. In the end, I decided to keep the webzine as specific to TGP as is possible......focusing on our members and what they do while, hopefully, providing readers with worthwhile material.

I did my best to set an example by writing the articles on Pearson and Webber. I received no compensation for that and I paid for the CDs I received from both over the years. Even the DVD review on Chuck's instructional DVD was paid for (in full) by both Scott Auld and myself......after being told that we could have it for free.

I'm not sure why I am defending myself here, but I am. In my opinion, you judge me incorrectly. In light of your request to be paid an honorarium.....a request made by nobody else, I am at a loss in trying to understand where you are coming from.

My response, CC'd to Scott:
Hi Brian
I guess it was said best in the last election, and created a major distraction and brou-haha in the process-
"You can put lipstick on a pig but its still a pig"
No matter how much you gloss it over and defend it, as soon as the outstretched hand took its first dollar from an advertiser, you had crossed the line to a commercial enterprise. You can defend it, contain it, restrict it, and control it to the extent of your abilities, but the fact remains- the lamb became a pig, for better or worse.
I never said that it is worse, just that it *is*. You cannot flatly deny what *is*, unless you took part in the Bush administration.
I think that both you and Scott have done yourselves and us a disservice by continuing to say 'Ba-ah-ah' rather than 'Oink'.
Scott seems to have read my post and seen innuendo and accusation. Not the case. Simply calling a pig by its proper name. Right now you are a skinny, undernourished baby piglet. Someday, you may grow into a big fat hog. Eventually even the prize-winning hogs get taken to the slaughterhouse and sliced up into bite-size pieces to become tasty morsels on the table of the consumer. That is the way of the world, consumerism, and advertising economics. Scott is in the business. Please don't try to tell me he doesn't understand exactly what I am saying.
As for me, I don't really mind playing in the pigpen. I'm fine wallowing around in the slop. The vast majority of other little piglets are just there to eat and roll around in their own crap. But once other little piglets volunteer to help fill the feedbucket, you should find a way to toss them a corncob.
There is no free ride, no free lunch. As soon as you took that first dollar, you are a commercial enterprise. There should be some commesurate form of compensation and acknowledgement for those that supply resaleable content in any form- photographic, editorial, expertise- even if that compensation is token, meager or illusionary in lieu of cash value (titles are always good 'Contributing Editor', etc.)
We are all too old and gristled to beat our chests over how much we have sacrificed to make our dreams come true and pursue our beloved hobbies or vocations. I won't bore you.
I'm just imploring you to call a spade a spade, a pig a pig, and to pet the ones who help fill the trough.
FWIW, I have sat on the commercial side of the aisle in the Gear Industry, going so far as to envision regional, national, and even international events based around the consumerism of guitar gear- an extension of the ToneFest/Amp Show concept. We assembled a fledgling Board of Directors, investors and advisors who were interested in pursuing the project. In my mind it was to be a not-for-profit enterprise, along the lines of Consumer Reports, with a revenue stream that would be self-supporting, and salary compensation for those who devoted the most time and energy to its success and growth. It died on the vine because it became apparent that there were a few individuals that wanted to only use the concept as a jumping-off-point to create a cash cow, milk it, and then sell it to the highest bidder.

So there is no innuendo in my position. You SHOULD find a way to make money. You SHOULD be paid for your efforts. You should NOT make any denial of your right to do so. But you should confirm to your constituency that you have taken the first baby step in that direction, and it is unknown exactly what will follow. And don't make promises you can't keep. The road to hell is paved with....

No hard feelings please fellas?
I'm sorry its so hard for you to understand where I'm coming from.
b.

Your smart enough to know that posting your PM breaks alot of TGP rules since you discuss politics. I suggest you remove it, and a mod or I will remove this quote. You were not asked to post your response PM, therefore you were never given the permission to break the no politics rule. I think the mods will understand and not give you an infraction but you know what your doing.

[Brian Scherzer]

I'm not going to remove anything that was written and I won't give an infraction for it. To me, this is a serious discussion that needed to be completed in public, although not by my choice initially. My apologies for allowing a TGP rule to be broken, but at least all members who read this thread will know exactly what the "behind the scenes" communication was.....without any censorship by either party. Any editing of that communication might open questions regarding what was deleted. To me, that would be a greater evil than allowing the political statements to remain.

[OrangeAD30TC]

that is a good point

[Bobby D]

Well, I saw that latest issue that had a page of various TGP threads, and I like it. It seems like TGP content will only be a couple of pages per month. Doesn't seem like it's gonna be all that big of a deal.

and PG is welcome to use any of my posts they wish! just spell my name right, it's BOBBY DEVITO :roll