View Full Version : Bensons approach to playing changes.
They can sound great to me too! YEE-HAA !!! VERY GOOD, VERY GOOD !!!:jo But a B natural over an Fmin chord can sound awkward too, with the right phrasing, placement, rhythm and emphasis. Jes' sayin', iz all...
:dude
cool! More bop lines and keep using the ear! The bop lines will guide you to the important tones and get your ear around. Lines lines lines. Licks do not work as well and sound more mechanical. they do not accent the proper notes most times, and do not bring out the function so much.
DrSax
09-07-2007, 04:35 PM
lol. Tag, man, your enthusiasm is awesome. It makes me want to sell everything I own and follow you and your system :p You should do infomercials, you know, the ones where they sell their "get-rich-quick" methods in real estate or whatever. You'll be rich!
wait, i've seen your gear collection, you already ARE rich. Nice.
lol. Tag, man, your enthusiasm is awesome. It makes me want to sell everything I own and follow you and your system :p You should do infomercials, you know, the ones where they sell their "get-rich-quick" methods in real estate or whatever. You'll be rich!
wait, i've seen your gear collection, you already ARE rich. Nice.
Lol! Nope...ask scott lerner..he has been here....thats everything I own! My house is falling apart! :(
Lucidology
09-07-2007, 05:14 PM
Lines lines lines. Licks do not work as well and sound more mechanical. they do not accent the proper notes most times, and do not bring out the function so much.
Tag ... finally I'm confused ...
Have understood everything everyone has been talking about here..
Until just now...
Have really enjoyed & appreciated all the interaction...
But I got pipe in with just one question ...?
What's the difference between "LICKS & LINES" ...?http://www.smileyhut.com/confused/dunno.gif
JimmyD
09-07-2007, 05:27 PM
What's the difference between "LICKS & LINES" ...?http://www.smileyhut.com/confused/dunno.gif
I think of licks as stylized cliches of a particular idiom. Lines can be licks, but can also be thought and viewed as a "springboard" to go off in a myriad of directions. This was real evident to me when I spent time with Les Wise's Bebop Bible.
Jim
I think of licks as stylized cliches of a particular idiom. Lines can be licks, but can also be thought and viewed as a "springboard" to go off in a myriad of directions. This was real evident to me when I spent time with Les Wise's Bebop Bible.
Jim
Well stated. A line is just that. A melodic line, and most of the time it outlines the chord tones beautifully. Listen to Clifford Brown, a TOTAL master of them. parker, benson, Stitt, all those guys. very few licks, TONS of melodic lines.
sergv
09-07-2007, 06:36 PM
OK, major tangent time:
While I can't say I knew Jerry anywhere near as well as Kimock - I wish I could - I did have one really amazing experience with him. He did a show at a club called Wolfgang's that used to be on Columbus in North Beach on your way up to the wharf and I was part of a duo that opened for him. It was with a singer/songwriter that did sort of a "Joni Mitchell abstraction with Chrissie Hynde attitude" - this would have been around '85, I think? We both played acoustic, she covered the basic chords and I did 'color commentary' but not really anything in the way of overt soloing. It was a very fun project for me.
Jerry was playing duo with John Kahn on bass. Going into it I didn't know much Dead stuff, but that which I'd heard sounded good. He and John did a long set of old-timey folk songs and blues tunes and I was really impressed with how well he did that stuff - authentically, with a real insider's knowledge of it, it felt like, a real genuine passion for that stuff.
Also - he was an incredibly sweet guy. I can't fathom for the life of me why anyone would have a bad word about him, based on my own brief encounter.
He died the day my wife and I got married - 8/9/95. Actually, we eloped - just went to the county courthouse, picked up a bottle of champagne and some Chinese food on the way home then called the families. I heard the news on that car radio on the way home. I told my wife Dianna my story about opening for him and we raised a glass in his honor.
I respected Jerry very deeply.
Great story, thanks for sharing. I would have loved to have seen/heard that show!
Here is a clip of MR PC totally using this method. Lots of lines with a few licks. Not to bad. http://www.soundclick.com/pro/view/02/default.cfm?bandID=121826&content=videos&vidID=16756
I think I only hit one unintended note, which is pretty good for me. :D
Lots of cool sounds though IMO, and I am a BABY in this system. :(
rwe333
09-07-2007, 07:34 PM
Thanks...I love that band and that's a good record but I wish the recording quality was better. It was just direct to minidisc.
Did I ever share the story of the name "mo'tet"?
Bradford says "If you don't have much money, I can get you a quartet. If you have a little more I can get you a quintet. Even more, I can bring a sextet, septet, octet...and so on. The mo' money you have, the mo' "tet" you get".
Missed this before - wonderful!
...and nice work on that disc, mate.
hear and play
09-07-2007, 08:37 PM
[quote=Tag;2935227]
It takes time, but stick with it. I can promise you it will open your ear and move you ahead faster than any other method. :AOK
Tag, I hope you're correct that the method is the best path, but, from what you've written previously, I don't think you can make that promise. The method helped you more than prior methods, but maybe your ear was just "ready" and other things would have worked as well. Also, what worked for you might not work as well for others. There's no "control group" for your experience.
I'm not dissin ya or saying that the method isn't the best tool. Rather, I'm saying that, regrettably, I haven't seen enough info to conclude that.
I wish teachers with wide experience in your method vs alternatives would opine. To my knowledge, the method is not a "primary" teaching tool at some of the major institutions (Berklee, GIT). Perhaps too few students have the ears for it? Perhaps it requires too much of the teacher? Perhaps the typical result is "plug it in" soloing -- that's not the method's fault, but that could be why it doesn't enjoy more prominence? Alternatively, perhaps it really is the way to go and academe has simply missed it.
Just tryin to keep it real.
[quote=Tag;2935227]
It takes time, but stick with it. I can promise you it will open your ear and move you ahead faster than any other method. :AOK
Tag, I hope you're correct that the method is the best path, but, from what you've written previously, I don't think you can make that promise. The method helped you more than prior methods, but maybe your ear was just "ready" and other things would have worked as well. Also, what worked for you might not work as well for others. There's no "control group" for your experience.
I'm not dissin ya or saying that the method isn't the best tool. Rather, I'm saying that, regrettably, I haven't seen enough info to conclude that.
I wish teachers with wide experience in your method vs alternatives would opine. To my knowledge, the method is not a "primary" teaching tool at some of the major institutions (Berklee, GIT). Perhaps too few students have the ears for it? Perhaps it requires too much of the teacher? Perhaps the typical result is "plug it in" soloing -- that's not the method's fault, but that could be why it doesn't enjoy more prominence? Alternatively, perhaps it really is the way to go and academe has simply missed it.
Just tryin to keep it real.
I hear you, and this is a great post. I have thought hard about it, but the fact that I had to UNLEARN things before I started to really learn them, IMO, shows that it was not just that my ear was ready. IMO and Ritchies, its just not a method that is really known all that well. He DOES teach this at Berklee now, and has taught it to his students since he learned it from George when he was around 21. If you ever want to really dig into georges playing, you will see this is EXACTLY how he approaches it, and IMO, PART of the reason he plays with such ease on changes compared to most other players. I have never heard anyone sound as great as george at so young an age. Uptown is just unreal, and as incredible as say Lagrene is, benson was MILES ahead at the same age. Thats hard to believe. (Of course just having a gift from God thet George has also helps!) I am hoping to make enough money where I can dedicate myself 100% to the guitar, and see how far I can get. This method is the one I will use for sure. I know now the sounds are in my head, and with a lot of hard work, I can get them out. I think with a lot of listening and using this method as a guide, many guys can become really good really fast. I know I improved as a player and a listener more in 1-2 years than I had in the previous 5-6 before I adopted this. What more could I ask for? Again, it is using this method, along with TRANSCRIBING as much as possible, and MAKING yourself USE it. A Real book and the masters playing those songs is an absolute MUST. You have to learn the lines over the chords, and see how they work and sound against the others in the groups. Also rememeber there are always exceptions, and a lot of in key blues licks that will throw you at times. That was a big step for me.
hear and play
09-07-2007, 09:46 PM
[quote=hear and play;2936335]
I hear you, and this is a great post. I have thought hard about it, but the fact that I had to UNLEARN things before I started to really learn them, IMO, shows that it was not just that my ear was ready. IMO and Ritchies, its just not a method that is really known all that well. He DOES teach this at Berklee now, and has taught it to his students since he learned it from George when he was around 21. If you ever want to really dig into georges playing, you will see this is EXACTLY how he approaches it, and IMO, PART of the reason he plays with such ease on changes compared to most other players. I have never heard anyone sound as great as george at so young an age. Uptown is just unreal, and as incredible as say Lagrene is, benson was MILES ahead at the same age. Thats hard to believe. (Of course just having a gift from God thet George has also helps!) I am hoping to make enough money where I can dedicate myself 100% to the guitar, and see how far I can get. This method is the one I will use for sure. I know now the sounds are in my head, and with a lot of hard work, I can get them out. I think with a lot of listening and using this method as a guide, many guys can become really good really fast. I know I improved as a player and a listener more in 1-2 years than I had in the previous 5-6 before I adopted this. What more could I ask for? Again, it is using this method, along with TRANSCRIBING as much as possible, and MAKING yourself USE it. A Real book and the masters playing those songs is an absolute MUST. You have to learn the lines over the chords, and see how they work and sound against the others in the groups. Also rememeber there are always exceptions, and a lot of in key blues licks that will throw you at times. That was a big step for me.
If it works as well for others as it does for you, let's hope it becomes more widespread.
You're doing your part, huh?
:BEER
mcuguitar
09-08-2007, 12:31 AM
Well, I'm reading these posts, and there is much good advice. Here's my 3 cents. My best friend grew up living right down the street from Benson. His name is Luther Dejarunett, and he lives in Pittsburgh. Luther is an excellent player, is on some of the original Jackson Five recordings, toured with Dionne Warwick, played with Sonny Rollins etc. etc. Luther used to go over to Benson's house, with about 3 other Pittsburgh guitar players. Benson taught them. Luther was my teacher for about a year, then we started gigging together and recording and doing day long jams at his apartment. Luther told me that Benson considered Wes Montgomery his musical "father". Pat Martino felt the same. WES MONTGOMERY is one of the biggest keys to understanding George, and I'd bet George himself would tell you the same. My background? Am I talking out my you know what? Well, I went to Berklee College of Music for a year, and I'm also a graduate of GIT. I've studied with Luther, Scott Henderson, John Hart (amazing player), Carl Verheyen (amazingest player), Norman Brown, Paul Gilbert, John Stohl, Bruce Foreman etc. and on and on. I've been around a bit. I hear all this talk about Berklee...but when I was there, it was a lame place for a guitarist. The music school section was splendid, but the guitar school, which is kind of separate... sucked...maybe that's why Mayer left, and so did Vai, oh yeah, and Metheny was only there a year too. Did you guys know that when Berklee invited Benson to play for the school around 1980 something, that they gave him all these charts, and tried to cause him a lot of grief on the bandstand. True story. Benson was pissed, but he blew them all away anyhow, because George can play. So much for Berklee. I find it really ironic that someone is teaching Benson's way up at Berklee. Oh well...times change...but it's a bit of a laugh for a place that was run by a lawyer. So study Parker if you want bop lines...he was the master after all, study Metheny for chord tones and melodic playing, and listen to Wes and George and Pat to learn how guitarists burn over bop. If you really want to know all the secrets...heck, move to N.Y. or Pittsburgh and seek out the real jazz players there. So many great players in each city. Oh yes...one more thing...Birelli Lagrene rocks, and I consider him up there with anyone. Peace, Jon.
KRosser
09-08-2007, 02:03 AM
Thanks for the clarification Ken, and I should follow you on the spelling thing, as you have noticed, I spend to much time on here to bother with that however. ;) Part of the reason my posts sound so blunt is that I try and type as little as possible, so try and get straight to the point.
Is this what you are referring to?
http://www.jimloy.com/physics/scale.htm
Yea, I understand the temperment a little bit, but since our instruments are tempered, IMO, it does not matter. Its a whole step apart on the guitar, piano and whatever, so thats how we use it. If they are not a whole step apart on the pianos or guitars you play, please explain. Otherwise, lets deal with what we actually use.
No, that's not what I was referring to at all. I'm afraid I'm not much of a student of temperments, etc., not that there isn't some value to it. I still have too much to do and learn within the confines of equal temperment.
I'm talking , again, about how the terms 'dominant' and 'subdominant' and their functions were derived -
Let's take 'C' - G is called the dominant, it's a 5th higher. It resolves by lowering a 5th.
The interval of a 5th below C is called the 'subdominant' because it's a 5th below the tonic and resolves up a 5th, if that's where it's going. It's actually more common for the subdominant to lead away from the tonic.
Similarly, this is why the 3rd above is called the 'mediant' and the 3rd below (in other words, the 6th) is called the 'submediant'. Both the mediant and submediant imply motion.
The 2nd is the 'supertonic' and the 7th is the 'leading tone'. The leading tone is considered a strong dominant substitute.
If you're curious about this and more, Walter Piston's "Harmony" book is pretty much the university standard (still, I believe) and is easily available.
One more word about jazz chord subs -
OK, blues in C - start with C7. Subbing Gm7, Bbmaj7, Am7b5, Dm7, D7, F#m7b5, F#7, Eb7, A7, Cm7b5, Ab7, Bb7, Bbm7b5, C#mM7, etc. to me is not particularly tricky because that's all in just harmonizing the various scale applications. I don't like having to think of another chord than what I'm playing, so I justify all of these in terms of C (i.e., Dm7/C7 is C13sus4, C#mM7 is C7#5b9, Ab7 is C7b5#5#9). That stuff Coltrane used to do where he'd go C7-E7-G#7-C7-E7-G#7, etc, over this C7 chord? He got that from Nick Slonimsky. Do you know the Slonimsky 'Thesaurus of Scales'? You should. If this is your thing you'd like it. All those guys were working out of that in the 60's - Coltrane, Dolphy, Shorter, Hancock, etc
I like subbing Bmaj7 for the C7 because it gives you the b5 and #9 as well as both 7ths.
When I started assimilating these vocabulary sounds, I found it much easier to think of them as extensions off C than superimposed sequences. Many of the same sounds you're lusting after, at least as far as mainstream jazz playing goes. I just approach them differently in terms of how I look at them, and I try to connect everything via a common or neighbor tone, that way I don't have to worry about forcing any resolutions. If a tonic/dominant relationship is truly implied by the underlying harmony, it will take care of itself. It doesn't need any reinforcement from me.
I strongly suspect that's what most of the players you say in post-analysis are using this method are really doing (such as Parker, Coltrane, etc....).
That's one reason why I don't use 'everything is just tonic to dominant' in order to supplement progressions. One place I will sometimes use it is to simplify turnarounds at really fast tempos - that I find potentially useful.
Another more important reason is that I don't necessarily want everything to be harmony-driven. But that's a whole other discussion.
You asked for specific details on my 'method', there you have them. Not really a 'method' so much as just a way that I view that's worked for me throughout decades of playing gigs.
I watched your video - I've never seen or heard you play before. I think it's cool that you're excited about this, but really, you need to put this stuff in your back pocket and go out and scuffle through a couple thousand gigs in all kinds of settings if becoming a great jazz guitarist is really important to you.
Not that you asked for my advice - but there you have it anyway.
George Benson
09-08-2007, 04:53 AM
Tag,
That tonic/dominant thing is just something I told Ritchie to get him off my ass.
You think that's how I play? Ha. My secret's safe.
peace,
GB
shigihara
09-08-2007, 05:50 AM
I watched your video - I've never seen or heard you play before. I think it's cool that you're excited about this, but really, you need to put this stuff in your back pocket and go out and scuffle through a couple thousand gigs in all kinds of settings if becoming a great jazz guitarist is really important to you.
Not that you asked for my advice - but there you have it anyway.
well... i watched the video too... wow...amazing that this guy is lecturing everyone and as you said is not even halfway there yet himself...
Leucadian
09-08-2007, 12:26 PM
Tag,
That tonic/dominant thing is just something I told Ritchie to get him off my ass.
You think that's how I play? Ha. My secret's safe.
peace,
GB
...hey George...Wes Montgomery here...welcome to the Gear Page...:D
hangten
09-08-2007, 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Benson http://www.thegearpage.net/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=2937094#post2937094)
Tag,
That tonic/dominant thing is just something I told Ritchie to get him off my ass.
You think that's how I play? Ha. My secret's safe.
peace,
GB
:eek:
the man himself has spoken.
does that mean this thread is over now?
:munch
[QUOTE]No, that's not what I was referring to at all. I'm afraid I'm not much of a student of temperments, etc., not that there isn't some value to it. I still have too much to do and learn within the confines of equal temperment.
Cool Ken, exactly my thoughts as well. Thanks for clarifying.
I'm talking , again, about how the terms 'dominant' and 'subdominant' and their functions were derived -
Let's take 'C' - G is called the dominant, it's a 5th higher. It resolves by lowering a 5th.
The interval of a 5th below C is called the 'subdominant' because it's a 5th below the tonic and resolves up a 5th, if that's where it's going. It's actually more common for the subdominant to lead away from the tonic.
No problems here either. And i agree the sub dom USUALLY leads to an even stronger Dominant. Typical example II-V or IV-V. But then you also have times when it does go back to tonic such as II-I or IV-I or whatever.
Again a thing I find very cool with this method is to play a STRONGER Dom sound over the II, and a MILDER over the V! That is not heard very much, and not used very much (if at all?) in other methods. This a great asset to this method and a typical Bensonism.
Similarly, this is why the 3rd above is called the 'mediant' and the 3rd below (in other words, the 6th) is called the 'submediant'. Both the mediant and submediant imply motion.
Just a different color of the tonic area, which is why pass and them said they treat both as the I. (NOT to say you just play the I major chord! All of the relative chords are interchangable here, so you are not "chord chasing", and you can actually color each chord differently. this is a HUGE benefit to just playing the I as a I, the VI as a VI, and the III as a III. It is ADDING different colors to each chord.
The 2nd is the 'supertonic' and the 7th is the 'leading tone'. The leading tone is considered a strong dominant substitute.
Agree. Strong dominant vs the II and IV which are milder dominant sounds.
If you're curious about this and more, Walter Piston's "Harmony" book is pretty much the university standard (still, I believe) and is easily available.
Understand it I ampretty sure.
One more word about jazz chord subs -
OK, blues in C - start with C7. Subbing Gm7, Bbmaj7, Am7b5, Dm7, D7, F#m7b5, F#7, Eb7, A7, Cm7b5, Ab7, Bb7, Bbm7b5, C#mM7, etc. to me is not particularly tricky because that's all in just harmonizing the various scale applications.
Of course, but the scales give you ALL the notes, and do not lead to motion in the lines as much. This is why melodic lines are so much better to play off of to me, and what I find in all of my transcribing. Very very few scales are ever played.
I don't like having to think of another chord than what I'm playing, so I justify all of these in terms of C (i.e., Dm7/C7 is C13sus4, C#mM7 is C7#5b9, Ab7 is C7b5#5#9).
I understand this, but IMO, this does not create the movement and "out" sounds nearly as well as using the various chords for motion. This is what I had to get away from. That system is also what led me to think all the notes had to "line up" all the time. Like using a diminished scale over a 13b 9 chord. then I would be transcribing something by benson or Coltrane or whoever, and i would hear a whole tone idea over a b9 chord and I would be like :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: . Then I learned that it works because they are bot just dom sounds, pulling your ear back by a different route. Notes do NOT have to line up. The phrase is the important thing.
That stuff Coltrane used to do where he'd go C7-E7-G#7-C7-E7-G#7, etc, over this C7 chord? He got that from Nick Slonimsky. Do you know the Slonimsky 'Thesaurus of Scales'? You should. If this is your thing you'd like it. All those guys were working out of that in the 60's - Coltrane, Dolphy, Shorter, Hancock, etc
I have heard about it but never picked it up. If you think I will dig it, I will seek it out! :)
I like subbing Bmaj7 for the C7 because it gives you the b5 and #9 as well as both 7ths.
Thats a good one that sounds strange to my ear sometimes. I dig the 4th of that over C7 (Emaj7#11), as it gives a perfect 1/2 step resolution on every chord tone to the I. (Fmaj7)
When I started assimilating these vocabulary sounds, I found it much easier to think of them as extensions off C than superimposed sequences. Many of the same sounds you're lusting after, at least as far as mainstream jazz playing goes.
I hear you, and as you know, once your ear accepts the maj7 over the b7 on a dom chord, you realize that EVERY note can be used, in any order, which gives you every chord there is. I like the groupings of the chords because it spells out different movements, and is highly melodic even when way out. Again, IMO, it just gets you to that end point faster, and gives you boatloads of diffrent sounds, AGAINST the base chord, so you have two things going on at once.
I just approach them differently in terms of how I look at them, and I try to connect everything via a common or neighbor tone, that way I don't have to worry about forcing any resolutions. If a tonic/dominant relationship is truly implied by the underlying harmony, it will take care of itself.
When you play chord on chord, that is correct. But this is how I hear many of the guys you dig so much, and what bores my ear. Its one chord to the next, and you dont have that different movement that you hear instantly in guys like James Moody, Benson, etc. It really is a VERY different sound, that gives you many more options IMO.
I strongly suspect that's what most of the players you say in post-analysis are using this method are really doing (such as Parker, Coltrane, etc....).
From what benson passed on to Ritchie, the Dom Tonic thing is how they approached it. that is also what i hear, and it is verified when you transcribe them as opposed to say Scofield or Abercrombie. Stern has surprised me, as he seems to employ this a lot of times, although he is probably my least fave player of the above three. That is strictly personal taste though as i understand.
That's one reason why I don't use 'everything is just tonic to dominant' in order to supplement progressions. One place I will sometimes use it is to simplify turnarounds at really fast tempos - that I find potentially useful.
Well, I agree that is one place where it sure works, but I also see it the other way as I have explained.
Another more important reason is that I don't necessarily want everything to be harmony-driven. But that's a whole other discussion.
And we are in 100% agreement it should not be. This thread was about playing the changes though.
You asked for specific details on my 'method', there you have them. Not really a 'method' so much as just a way that I view that's worked for me throughout decades of playing gigs.
Understand, and any method that lets you express yourself is a great one. We have both found one that works for us, thank goodness!
:BEER
I watched your video - I've never seen or heard you play before. I think it's cool that you're excited about this, but really, you need to put this stuff in your back pocket and go out and scuffle through a couple thousand gigs in all kinds of settings if becoming a great jazz guitarist is really important to you.
Totally agree.
Not that you asked for my advice - but there you have it anyway.
Always glad to have it. Thanks! :)
Tag,
That tonic/dominant thing is just something I told Ritchie to get him off my ass.
You think that's how I play? Ha. My secret's safe.
peace,
GB
:(:(:(:(:(:(:(
LOL!! great post! :AOK
well... i watched the video too... wow...amazing that this guy is lecturing everyone and as you said is not even halfway there yet himself...
Thanks for listening. You are a much more polished player than I am for sure!
However, I actually dug my lines a lot more. :D
VERY GOOD VERY GOOD!!!
...hey George...Wes Montgomery here...welcome to the Gear Page...:D
DAMN!! Next thing you know, Joe Pass will stop by to say hello as well! This is the best thread ever! :D:D:D
heretic
09-08-2007, 01:23 PM
:(:(:(:(:(:(:(
that's tension.
LOL!! great post! :AOK
that's resolution.
See Tag, you just LIVE the stuff! :dude
Seriously, I appreciate your being a good sport.
Clifford-D
09-08-2007, 01:43 PM
:(:(:(:(:(:(:(
LOL!! great post! :AOK
It's a truth amungst many truths.
You still sound really good.
And as far as I'm concerned you are "there"
You always were.
:)
Clifford-D
09-08-2007, 01:50 PM
Tag,
That tonic/dominant thing is just something I told Ritchie to get him off my ass.
You think that's how I play? Ha. My secret's safe.
peace,
GB
It's great to hear from you. I've always been into your music.
It's beautiful man.
This is a real honor chatting with you.
If I may be so bold, and this is what we do all the time here on TGP,,
Mr Benson, how do you do what you do my friend? or what is music for you as you play or just dream?
what fun..
peace, Cliff
:)
Leucadian
09-08-2007, 01:52 PM
...Tag...I was watching one of your video's and noticed a pricetag hanging off the headstock of your guitar...is that why you call yourself Tag?:eek:
gennation
09-08-2007, 01:57 PM
well... i watched the video too... wow...amazing that this guy is lecturing everyone and as you said is not even halfway there yet himself...
Where is this video. I guess I missed it in all the other text.
Clifford-D
09-08-2007, 02:03 PM
...Tag...I was watching one of your video's and noticed a pricetag hanging off the headstock of your guitar...is that why you call yourself Tag?:eek:
I think it's more like 'tag your it',
you're now on the hotseat.
Fastest moving thread in a while.
Where is this video. I guess I missed it in all the other text.
Here... http://www.soundclick.com/pro/view/02/default.cfm?bandID=121826&content=videos&vidID=16756
Rip me apart as long as its your HONEST opinion. I feel anyone who is talking about this stuff should show that they at least "hear it." IMO, this shows I am. far from my best playing, but far from my worst as well.
Plenty of others at my soundclick site listed below.
willhutch
09-08-2007, 03:18 PM
Hey Tag,
I'm intrested in your methodology. I admire your playing and would like to experiment with what you are suggesting.
You seem equipped to make recordings and videos. Any chance you could do a lesson clip to let us hear your method in action? I'm sure your approach is present throughout your clips. But maybe you could do a highly-focused, explicit segment where you show us how this works using simple examples. Maybe you use the chord progressions suggested in your OP?
This thread has ranged far and wide. It would be great if you could help those of us who are interested by providing audion examples. With all the hours you've put into this thread. An hour to record some examples seems justified.
Thanks for sharing.
Hey Tag,
I'm intrested in your methodology. I admire your playing and would like to experiment with what you are suggesting.
You seem equipped to make recordings and videos. Any chance you could do a lesson clip to let us hear your method in action? I'm sure your approach is present throughout your clips. But maybe you could do a highly-focused, explicit segment where you show us how this works using simple examples. Maybe you use the chord progressions suggested in your OP?
This thread has ranged far and wide. It would be great if you could help those of us who are interested by providing audion examples. With all the hours you've put into this thread. An hour to record some examples seems justified.
Thanks for sharing.
I will. Ill do something simple to just show how the different sounds work against the other chords in the goups. Its going to take me a few days, but Ill do something. There is one easy example I learned from benson that I want to show that really points this system out at a very basic level. It shows how it (method) gives you more options than others. I will play the exact line benson used over the backing II-V-I.
shigihara
09-08-2007, 04:43 PM
Where is this video. I guess I missed it in all the other text.
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showpost.php?p=2935949&postcount=563
well... i watched the video too... wow...amazing that this guy is lecturing everyone and as you said is not even halfway there yet himself...
you are taking this way too seriously. and where is- there? tag seems like a good guy who is very very passionate about jazz guitar. god bless him!:dude
shigihara
09-08-2007, 05:30 PM
you are taking this way too seriously.
really ?!?
as far as i remember that was my one and only post
in this thread...
i'll shut up 'n' play my guitar....
:D
really ?!?
as far as i remember that was my one and only post
in this thread...
i'll shut up 'n' play my guitar....
:D
you are correct, it's just, that statement about his playing level struck me as a little judgemental. i can see debating with him about his theory but it should remain impersonal. obviously that statement originated with someone else and maybe he needs to step back as well. sorry if i offended you.
shigihara
09-08-2007, 06:03 PM
but it should remain impersonal.
u must be joking...
try telling that tag guy...
personal attacks seem to be part of his 'style'...
u must be joking...
try telling that tag guy...
personal attacks seem to be part of his 'style'...
Hmmm. Since you seem intent on going there, maybe you should try this method! Maybe it would make your playing a little more interesting! Snooze fest city. Being polished and having lots of experience does not a creative player make. ;)
Now look... If you are hearing the music, it is only a matter of time put into the instrument to achieve higher levels. I have NEVER claimed to be more than an intermediate jazz player, but my ears are good. I argued with Lala land because he was NOT hearing anything other than key centered playing, as was shown in his clips. Even if he was at a beginning jazz level, it would have shown he could hear what he was talking about. he was googling his answers that could not be backed up in the LEAST by what he was hearing. Enough negativity.
[quote]
Are you kidding me? His fretless playing is nothing short of brilliant. His intonation is spot on perfect. His guitar sounds as beautiful as a sarangi. I have no idea how you could possibly insult this guy, he sounds amazing...
Check out 'Stella' on youtube. Wow. Beautiful harp harmonics.
Hey, he stated his honest opionion of me, I did the same. No hard feelings on my end! :)
Tag, as soon as I get back home, I'll record something for you - how about a little jazz blues, say Freddie Freeloader. Then you can tell me if I'm 'hearing' it.
How about the Blue Bossa backing I sent you?
BTW, was that really George Benson?
I thought it was someone joking around, but now I am wondering. Maybe someone hipped him to the thread? Would that be cool if it was or WHAT? :AOK If it was really him, I challenge him do a take to see if he is really hearing it as well. :D
JUST KIDDING GEORGE!!!
VERY GOOD VERY GOOD!!
A buddy of mine and great jazz guitarist....Russ Difilippis......
"My experiences at Berklee were some of the best times of my life. I was surrounded with wonderful fellow students, who are now the "who's who" of the guitar community. John Scofield, Mike Stern, my close buddy Richie Hart a.k.a Richie Hohenburger, Jeff Golub,Chuck Loeb, Jamie Glazer ,Jay Azzolia and the late Emily Remler. We were all walking the halls trying to get our chops together. During my years at Berklee I had the good fortune to study with three very dedicated but distinctively different guitar instructors. The first was Mark French who had patience, helping me navigate through the requirements to earn my Bachelors of Music In Applied Performance. Mark also has a gift for making students think out of the box. I recall a lesson when he asked me to get out my Berklee Modern Method for Guitar Book One, which I had been through extensively years early and was sure I was thoroughly done with. But when he asked me to turn to the reading study on page 64-64 and turn the book literally upside down and read it, I knew that you are never really done with anything as long as you keep thinking out of the box. So what I was face to face with was now middle C had become A first ledger line above the staff. And if you were to super impose a different key signature, well now that's a horse of a completely different color. Heck of a great drill! Mick Goodrick on the other hand had a different approach. More of a Zen master. He also had the gift of patience, but he would like to plant the seeds of creativity and let you reap the harvest if you tended to the field properly. For instance I once asked him how might I comp bass lines and changes like a piano player would. His response was "guide tones" and sent me on my way. I went back to my dorm room and contemplated that, trying all different things til I made some wonderful discoveries. Now the grand dad of the Berklee experience was William Leavitt, who I affectionately and respectfully called Uncle Bill. His organization and guidance not only helped me but helped all of us who went through his system. He helped us rise to the highest level of proficiency and professionalism. His educational contribution definitely lifted the integrity of guitar in today's landscape. You can witness his dedication by the volume of educational materials he had published.youruences on jazz guitar when you were beginning? And have they stayed the same or have thnon-guitare, how has this experience influenced you professionally and personally?
RD: Big bad George Benson has been a guitar hero since I was in my early teens.When I was attending Berklee I would go see him at the Jazz Workshop a jazz club on Boylston St.Like all of the young Berklee guitar players I was mezmorized with his playing, he's a natural. He hears it and plays it. After I graduated I came back to the New York area and moved back to my home town of Fort Lee N.J. At that time G.B. moved to a neighboring town and we started running into each other at music stores and restaurants. In the late 80's George's son Robert (sax player) was getting ready to attend Berklee. George was told by the school to contact me so I could get Robert ready for his admittance to the school. So G.B.gave me a call,came by my place and we set up Robert to have 2 lessons per week with me. With all this intense study Robert was able to get himself advanced placement when he finally was enrolled in the school. It was during this time our families shared time together, hanging out, going for dinner, having parties and barbeques,etc. developing a treasured friendship. The Bensons will always be part of my extended family. Earlier I mentioned my wonderful experience working along George as his assistant but as great as that was it pales in comparison to sitting across from him on the living room couch playing guitar together. Just when you think you've heard everything. BAM!!!! he kicks it up a notch. He is BAD!!!!"
:AOK:AOK:AOK:AOK:AOK
gennation
09-09-2007, 12:47 AM
Hmmm. Since you seem intent on going there, maybe you should try this method! Maybe it would make your playing a little more interesting! Snooze fest city. Being polished and having lots of experience does not a creative player make. ;)
Now look... If you are hearing the music, it is only a matter of time put into the instrument to achieve higher levels. I have NEVER claimed to be more than an intermediate jazz player, but my ears are good. I argued with Lala land because he was NOT hearing anything other than key centered playing, as was shown in his clips. Even if he was at a beginning jazz level, it would have shown he could hear what he was talking about. he was googling his answers that could not be backed up in the LEAST by what he was hearing. Enough negativity.
As if we'd expect anything less of you Tag. That's pretty sad.
You have two sounds and your playing and shows it...and here the legitimate reason why...
Have you noticed by listening to Kimock or Shig (I haven't heard Ken) that if anything they can build a solo from beginning to end? Their solo's grow as they are playing them. That's always impresses me with those guys is it's like they know how to feel their way into a solo and then grow it from letters to words to sentences to a whole story. Maybe it's the fact that 1000's of people are clapping for the soloist that went before them and they don't want to waste any great licks that will get drowned out ;) But, they certainly feel their way into a solo.
Having watched your video you're playing ends pretty much right where it started. There's no "growing up" in your solo.
There's plenty of vid's of those guys that you can check out, but maybe you ought to stop listening to others and take a serious listen to yourself. Maybe it's the "two sound" approach but, you aren't able to take your solo (the one in the video) to the next step...you seem to be stuck in the same sound throughout the whole solo.
If you listen to Coltrane and Benson, they can shoot fire right off the bat...and can still turn that heat up and up to make a 3 minute solo worth listening to, and precious. You may have copped some of their licks, but you need to look further for momentum.
Try this...watch the first half of your solo, see how far it progressed, then watch the second half...did it progress ANY further? I think you'll hear the same thing I did...actually it's the same everything, style, vibe, mood, intensity, call and response...it's the same everything...after about one minute in...you've said everything you have to say.
Constructively criticizing...that's a huge difference in Steve and Shig's playing over yours, a seriously huge difference.
Hmmm, maybe they have more than two sounds???
shigihara
09-09-2007, 03:26 AM
personal attacks seem to be part of his 'style'...
and once again... as proven above...
shigihara
09-09-2007, 04:01 AM
well... i watched the video too... wow...amazing that this guy is lecturing everyone and as you said is not even halfway there yet himself...
let me re-quote myself here...
my only comment re:tag was just stating the obvious:
agreeing w/ken that tag is an intermediate improvisor
who has his 'work' cut out for him if he wants to master
that one particular musical 'language' so well spoken by people
such as GB...
andybaylor
09-09-2007, 05:55 AM
I started applying these concepts last night...and they seem to work really well for me.
I'm only on the first post, but theres a hell of a LOT of info in the post.
Good job Tag. Thanks. Don't go changin.
AAB
Clifford-D
09-09-2007, 08:46 AM
Hmmm. Since you seem intent on going there, maybe you should try this method! Maybe it would make your playing a little more interesting! Snooze fest city. Being polished and having lots of experience does not a creative player make. ;)
Now look... If you are hearing the music, it is only a matter of time put into the instrument to achieve higher levels. I have NEVER claimed to be more than an intermediate jazz player, but my ears are good. I argued with Lala land because he was NOT hearing anything other than key centered playing, as was shown in his clips. Even if he was at a beginning jazz level, it would have shown he could hear what he was talking about. he was googling his answers that could not be backed up in the LEAST by what he was hearing. Enough negativity.
Even after GB chimes in you can't be cool and let it go. On with the attacks.
Post GB you are now attacking Paul Shigihara.
This post is so big because people are left stupified
by what comes out your mouth. Like rubberneckers at an accident.
The meanest cut you made was to Kimock, imo, it's really hard to say,
there were so many put downs. But Steve didn't deserve the crap you slung at him.
He can play circles around you.
Like you are so much more developed, in your wildest dreams.
Your playing is good, your attitude sucks big time.
You just might have blew all the credibility you had.
I'm surprised you haven't put down GB himself for not aggreeing with you.
maybe you sent him a pm telling him to stick it. That would be your style.
You had a chance to have a fertile thread, but,,,
I think Dr Phil is in order.
KRosser
09-09-2007, 08:53 AM
let me re-quote myself here...
my only comment re:tag was just stating the obvious:
agreeing w/ken that tag is an intermediate improvisor
who has his 'work' cut out for him if he wants to master
that one particular musical 'language' so well spoken by people
such as GB...
Just to clarify -
I made no judgements about Tag's playing at all or the state of his development.
I merely offered him some advice to improve his playing, which was not meant facetiously at all (also - splatt's advice about the 'time' thing? - right on the money) but meant constructively and as sort of an olive branch, since Tag has taken on a confrontational position with me on this whole thread which I don't really understand since I've never said he was wrong or bad or anything - just that I didn't do it or teach it.
Comments like he made about your playing, however, make me wonder if olive branches will be seen as such.
As if we'd expect anything less of you Tag. That's pretty sad.
You have two sounds and your playing and shows it...and here the legitimate reason why...
Have you noticed by listening to Kimock or Shig (I haven't heard Ken) that if anything they can build a solo from beginning to end? Their solo's grow as they are playing them. That's always impresses me with those guys is it's like they know how to feel their way into a solo and then grow it from letters to words to sentences to a whole story. Maybe it's the fact that 1000's of people are clapping for the soloist that went before them and they don't want to waste any great licks that will get drowned out ;) But, they certainly feel their way into a solo.
Having watched your video you're playing ends pretty much right where it started. There's no "growing up" in your solo.
:jo Those videos are just of me practicing, most never even meant to be posted, I just did for the fun of it.
Here are some where I am actually "playing" and not just practicing. Plenty here for your listening pleasure. :D Sit back, grab an ice tea and enjoy! I actually like the 2 different approaches on Blue bossa. You also miss the fact that there ARE only two sounds, regardless of who is playing. Its either at reast or its not. Yea, I play all of the "subdominant" sounds too. Maybe your ear cant pick them out? :p
By the way, Shig comes in for ONE post, knocks my playing (which is fine), and no one says a thing. then when I give my honest opinion on him, a few guys think I am being negative? Hey, you put out what you think of someones playing, be ready to take it back baby! I always keep my link up there so any can hear me play. If the guy knocked my socks off and said he hated my playing, I would still say he knocked my socks off! What are you going to do? there are always guys who are better, until you get to benson! Lol!
http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=994053&q=hi (http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=994053&q=hi)
http://www.soundclick.com/util/getp...id=1343307&q=hi (http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=1343307&q=hi)
http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=3216711&q=hi (http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=3216711&q=hi)
http://www.soundclick.com/util/getp...id=3094418&q=hi (http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=3094418&q=hi)
http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=1664999&q=hi (http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=1664999&q=hi)
http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=1396695&q=hi (http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=1396695&q=hi)
http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=1303485&q=hi (http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=1303485&q=hi)
VERY GOOD VERY GOOD!!!!
[QUOTE=splatt;2939822]real music is really, really serious.
really, really serious fun, too,
but: still serious as cancer, friend.
sorry, it's not as serious as cancer. ever have it? hope you never do. and look, it's obvious that paul s is a great player, as are you. i guess my question is, why would you get into a serious discussion with tag to begin with? nothing stated here as theory is that important in the scheme of things. going head to head is fine to a point, but when it becomes obvious that your dealing with someone who will not listen, well, to quote paul shig, time to go play my guitar.:RoCkIn
Just to clarify -
I made no judgements about Tag's playing at all or the state of his development.
I merely offered him some advice to improve his playing, which was not meant facetiously at all (also - splatt's advice about the 'time' thing? - right on the money) but meant constructively and as sort of an olive branch, since Tag has taken on a confrontational position with me on this whole thread which I don't really understand since I've never said he was wrong or bad or anything - just that I didn't do it or teach it.
Comments like he made about your playing, however, make me wonder if olive branches will be seen as such.
Of course Ken. Thanks for the constructive criticism! very much appreciated!, and I agree with you. The other clips where I am actually playing and not practicing are much better IMO, but lack of playing time effects my sense of time for sure. That is my #one goal as soon as I get back to it!
:BEER
:BEER
Post GB you are now attacking Paul Shigihara.
Not at all. I posted my honest opinion of his playing, like he did of mine.
[QUOTE]
This post is so big because people are left stupified
by what comes out your mouth. Like rubberneckers at an accident.
So you are a rubbernecker?
The meanest cut you made was to Kimock, imo, it's really hard to say,
there were so many put downs. But Steve didn't deserve the crap you slung at him.
You ignore the fact he came in and ripped me first?
He can play circles around you.
HAH!!!!
Your playing is good, your attitude sucks big time.
Hmm...my attitude is to not talk behind others backs, and to be 100% honest.
You just might have blew all the credibility you had.
Ignore list me then!
I'm surprised you haven't put down GB himself for not aggreeing with you.
maybe you sent him a pm telling him to stick it. That would be your style.
I would never do that to anyone. Sounds like you would though.
You had a chance to have a fertile thread,
Hmmm.....from all the emails and my PM box being filled several times with questions about this system, and how its already working for so many, it seems maybe it is??
:AOK
I started applying these concepts last night...and they seem to work really well for me.
I'm only on the first post, but theres a hell of a LOT of info in the post.
Good job Tag. Thanks. Don't go changin.
AAB
VERY GOOD VERY GOOD!!! :BEER
tag,
i'm not dissing you, here, but offering a wee small suggestion:
try to stop that tapping-yer-foot "in time" thing.
i suspect it's getting in the way of your feeling time
in the larger middle of your body,
where it might wanna belong (in your case):
maybe it's mucking up your rhythm, blocking the introduction of your personal, natural feel into your phrasing?
as it appears to me now,
it sounds kinda all "eyeballs" & "foot",
not necessarily the parts of one's body one delegates
as the prime-motivators-of & most-responsible-parties-for one's musical phrasing.
pulse, blood:
heart.
middle of the body.
solar plexus.
stomach.
balls.
ass.
just a thought, no more.
dt / spltrcl
Thanks Dave! The foot tapping is probably a leftover from my disco days!
:o
KRosser
09-09-2007, 12:49 PM
Of course Ken. Thanks for the constructive criticism! very much appreciated!, and I agree with you. The other clips where I am actually playing and not practicing are much better IMO, but lack of playing time effects my sense of time for sure. That is my #one goal as soon as I get back to it
How much do you spend playing with other humans?
(By the way, I don't think Shig was 'knocking your playing' at all. I think he was knocking your hubris, which can get pretty tiring sometimes. He stated you were an intermediate level player, which I don't disagree with.
FWIW, I happen to like and respect Shig's playing a great deal - did you hear those duets with Mariano? I loved those. There is a depth of maturity and command there that only a lot of experience can get you, not to mention rich imagination and a great team-playing spirit)
I listened to a few of those tracks. I won't be so presumptuous as to assume you want specific direction from me, but again, to elaborate on my general advice - if you want to expand you have to play with lots of people and it at least sounds to me like you don't. Practicing to these tracks is cool - I do it every so often as well - but it's like sparring with a punching bag. Yes, every great boxer does it and every great boxer can hit the bejesus out of a punching bag, but NO boxer will tell you it's a substitute for what you learn in a real fight. It's 'the things you learn in a real fight' that I don't hear.
i gotta respectfully point out that
more than half of what you
quoted as ME having SAID
was actually YOUR own response;
on a communication level,
that's a drag.
i hope you'll edit/fix that post,
out of a modicum of respect.
thanks.
dt / spltrcl
sorry, i didn't mean to do that, but i'm an old fart, and these new fangled computers...well, i'll fix it.
shigihara
09-09-2007, 01:55 PM
(By the way, I don't think Shig was 'knocking your playing' at all. I think he was knocking your hubris, which can get pretty tiring sometimes. He stated you were an intermediate level player, which I don't disagree with.
ken, thank you for reading and understanding correctly...
Clifford-D
09-09-2007, 02:38 PM
IV dominant- I tonic. Thats the way I hear it.
I hear Amen this way as well.
Funny, I always played it with just the triad.
Never really payed attention to the seventh.
It's most definatly a IVb7
interesting.
Please explain :)
shigihara
09-09-2007, 02:38 PM
......but meant constructively and as sort of an olive branch, since Tag has taken on a confrontational position with me on this whole thread...
i admire your patience... you're building up good karma.
Comments like he made about your playing, however, make me wonder
if olive branches will be seen as such.
hey, can't make everyone happy... :)
and isn't the internet (guitar forums in particular...) the perfect place
to exercise restraint ?
KRosser
09-09-2007, 03:11 PM
i admire your patience... you're building up good karma.
*sigh*...savin' up that karma....never know when I'm gonna need to cash some in....
hey, can't make everyone happy... :)
and isn't the internet (guitar forums in particular...) the perfect place
to exercise restraint ?
If you can practice it here, you can practice it anywhere!
(I reserve the right to modify this statement when my twin daughters hit 16....)
DrSax
09-09-2007, 07:48 PM
(I reserve the right to modify this statement when my twin daughters hit 16....)
Two teenage daughters?
Man, I had much respect for you before. Now....well, my friend my hat's off to you. I would lock them in a closet until they were at least 40. I KNOW I'm not man enough to deal with that!
:BEER
How much do you spend playing with other humans?
(By the way, I don't think Shig was 'knocking your playing' at all. I think he was knocking your hubris, which can get pretty tiring sometimes. He stated you were an intermediate level player, which I don't disagree with.
FWIW, I happen to like and respect Shig's playing a great deal - did you hear those duets with Mariano? I loved those. There is a depth of maturity and command there that only a lot of experience can get you, not to mention rich imagination and a great team-playing spirit)
I listened to a few of those tracks. I won't be so presumptuous as to assume you want specific direction from me, but again, to elaborate on my general advice - if you want to expand you have to play with lots of people and it at least sounds to me like you don't. Practicing to these tracks is cool - I do it every so often as well - but it's like sparring with a punching bag. Yes, every great boxer does it and every great boxer can hit the bejesus out of a punching bag, but NO boxer will tell you it's a substitute for what you learn in a real fight. It's 'the things you learn in a real fight' that I don't hear.
Hey Ken,
As of the last month or two, I have barely picked up the guitar at all. Before that, I was playing with a bass player 1-2 times a week for about 2 hours each time. We are starting again in a few weeks, and are going to try and do a few duet gigs over the winter. We were in many many rock bands together years ago, and its a lot of fun. Also, your (and others)constructive criticism is ALWAYS, ALWAYS welcome. As I always say when I post in the clips section, I would rather have a constructive critic of my playing over a politically correct "nice playing!" every day of the week.
:BEER
Shig maybe did not realize that I have ALWAYS said I am no more than an intermediate jazz player at best. HOWEVER, he said what he thought of my playing, and I said what I thought of his. Dont bash me for being honest.
[QUOTE]I think thats an effect of playing with a backing track. I think anyone who plays only with backing tracks for a long time will have that same effect. IMHO.
really? Your clips do less, and you are playing with humans. please explain. The video was a practice that I decided to post, I have posted other clips, and I have the backings for anyone who wants to jump in and show me how its done. I think my solos build nicely in most, and the playing is actually very good, and better than MANY pro players I go see. YMMV, and that is fine with me!
He kind of said that it was good advice to a point, but that it could be taken further. Didn't really seem to insult you or your playing at all until you did.
I stated my honest opinion. End of that story.
However, this thread has inspired me to push my jazz knowledge and playing, so for that I thank Tag. While I stand by my argument, I understand that I have a long long way to go to become a compitant jazz guitarist (which is probably about all I aspire to in that particular direction of guitar playing).
Cool.
that's (on the surface) a
very sweet & personally supportive post.
unfortunately, such support might be
seen as more than a little misplaced,
since the basic prerequisite to
learning (anything, at any point)
is our ability to change.
as well, it serves the community poorly
when conversations like this become
re-centered upon personal battles-of-ego & willpower, etc.
dt / spltrcl
Dave, I think he stated he tried the method, and its working for him. Nothing more nothing less. I am 100% sure it will help almost anyone who applies it. It simply can not hurt.
jimfog
09-09-2007, 08:51 PM
Also, your (and others)constructive criticism is ALWAYS, ALWAYS welcome. As I always say when I post in the clips section, I would rather have a constructive critic of my playing over a politically correct "nice playing!" every day of the week.
really? Your clips do less, and you are playing with humans. please explain. The video was a practice that I decided to post, I have posted other clips, and I have the backings for anyone who wants to jump in and show me how its done. I think my solos build nicely in most, and the playing is actually very good, and better than MANY pro players I go see. YMMV, and that is fine with me!
OUCH!!! My head hurts from the whiplash!!!!
If you're gonna do that, Tag, be a little bit slower......maybe leave a few posts in between.......or at least warn us!
- Jim
OUCH!!! My head hurts from the whiplash!!!!
If you're gonna do that, Tag, be a little bit slower......maybe leave a few posts in between.......or at least warn us!
- Jim
Sorry Jim. I listened to lala play. No way I am taking criticism from someone who does not even understand what I am playing. I will listen to someone from all levels if they can understand whats being played. thats why I always ask for clips. I have said it from the first time I joined this place years ago. If a guy cant play at a decent level, I really could care less what amp he thinks sounds good, or what he thinks of my playing. If you feel differently, I understand. It just does not work for *me*.
KRosser
09-09-2007, 11:21 PM
Two teenage daughters?
Man, I had much respect for you before. Now....well, my friend my hat's off to you. I would lock them in a closet until they were at least 40. I KNOW I'm not man enough to deal with that!
:BEER
Well, they're 12 now. We're already hitting the early stages of 'the teenage thing', big time.
Actually, right now I'm posting from inside the closet....shhhhhh...no one knows where I am....
Sorry for the OT.
Everybody go practice....
KRosser
09-09-2007, 11:32 PM
Sorry Jim. I listened to lala play. No way I am taking criticism from someone who does not even understand what I am playing. I will listen to someone from all levels if they can understand whats being played. thats why I always ask for clips. I have said it from the first time I joined this place years ago. If a guy cant play at a decent level, I really could care less what amp he thinks sounds good, or what he thinks of my playing. If you feel differently, I understand. It just does not work for *me*.
That's funny...
Since a big part of making a living for me means having to get the approval of many people who can't or don't play guitar at all, I've learned to care a great deal what some of them think, situation depending
And I don't think I've ever cared if someone understands what I'm doing or not if they're willing to give it their ears....
I could never get behind the concept that something has to be understood to be appreciated, or at least I try not to live my own musical life that way, whether I'm giving or receiving.
Plus, I learn from my students all the time.
That's funny...
Since a big part of making a living for me means having to get the approval of many people who can't or don't play guitar at all, I've learned to care a great deal what some of them think, situation depending
And I don't think I've ever cared if someone understands what I'm doing or not if they're willing to give it their ears....
I could never get behind the concept that something has to be understood to be appreciated, or at least I try not to live my own musical life that way, whether I'm giving or receiving.
Plus, I learn from my students all the time.
Totally understand your point, and since you make your living on it, It makes more sense in your situation. It just does not work for me. Its like someone who does not understand chinese listening to a speaker talk in chines, and criticizing it. It makes no sense to *me*. YMMV.
shigihara
09-10-2007, 04:27 AM
Shig maybe did not realize that I have ALWAYS said I am no more than an intermediate jazz player at best. HOWEVER, he said what he thought of my playing, and I said what I thought of his. Dont bash me for being honest.
dude, never ever did i say what i thought of your playing...
the one thing i've said is that i find it amazing that someone
who is an intermediate jazz improvisor is lecturing everybody...
the way you're talking and putting people down
i find pretty ridiculous... judging from the few threads i've read
where you engage yourself it seems that it's pretty easy to push your buttons... just my opinion...
andybaylor
09-10-2007, 06:33 AM
"And you gotta have some kind of f*cking attitude if you expect anybody to buy what you’re selling, so don’t forget that."
Steve Kimock
hangten
09-10-2007, 07:46 AM
Sorry Jim. I listened to lala play. No way I am taking criticism from someone who does not even understand what I am playing. I will listen to someone from all levels if they can understand whats being played. thats why I always ask for clips. I have said it from the first time I joined this place years ago. If a guy cant play at a decent level, I really could care less what amp he thinks sounds good, or what he thinks of my playing. If you feel differently, I understand. It just does not work for *me*. __________________
Tag
you might want to go check this clip out (since you ask for clips).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JQkutPDxQQ&mode=related&search=
you made this statement to shigihara:
Hmmm. Since you seem intent on going there, maybe you should try this method! Maybe it would make your playing a little more interesting! Snooze fest city. Being polished and having lots of experience does not a creative player make.
do you stand by that statement after watching the above clip?
actually, it doesn't matter. watching the two clips (the other one being the one you posted as an example of how great this method is) back to back would be comical if it weren't simply sad that you do not recognize ummm the fact that shigihara's playing is creative and interesting. watch in amazement as he keeps the groove WITHOUT a drum machine, plays solos, basslines, chords, uses SPACE (meaning he does't play any NOTES) to make a sronger musical statement, plays melodically...and to top it all off, listens to and interacts with another human being in the process of making music. on the spot.
now i know you said your clip was just practice...but it says a lot about your playing.
i just don't understand where you get off calling shigihara's playing "snooze fest city". if you believe this, you are truly clueless about music.
on a larger level, you seems determined that this method will "100% work for everyone", and in fact you guarantee it - what is your guarantee? some of the players here have used this method and said that it didn't "work for them". so what! you made your point that you like this method. 'nuff said.
but i think some self examination is in order here - by you, Tag.
and probably an apology or two.
No way I am taking criticism from someone who does not even understand what I am playing.
the above is what you said about lalaland, but from your other statements I can't imagine you understand what shigihara is doing, and you are certainly willing to criticize him. absurd.
KRosser
09-10-2007, 09:15 AM
Totally understand your point, and since you make your living on it, It makes more sense in your situation. It just does not work for me. Its like someone who does not understand chinese listening to a speaker talk in chines, and criticizing it. It makes no sense to *me*. YMMV.
Your 'Chinese' metaphor doesn't work here, I think. If knowledge of the mechanics of the music is necessary for its enjoyment, there's something wrong, I think.
I've done a lot of work with various programs bringing music to schools and various cultural events, etc., and one thing I've learned is that you can give people the undiluted stuff without any disclaimers like "this is difficult to understand", or "you need to know the details to get this" or "this is not something the common people will like" or "this won't taste very good but swallow it because it's good for you" and you always get great receptions at these things.
As I've said before in another thread, it's been my experience people really relate to sincere conviction when it comes to performances and if you have that going for you, they'll listen to all kinds of stuff they don't understand.
Tag
you might want to go check this clip out (since you ask for clips).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JQkutPDxQQ&mode=related&search=
you made this statement to shigihara:
do you stand by that statement after watching the above clip?
actually, it doesn't matter. watching the two clips (the other one being the one you posted as an example of how great this method is) back to back would be comical if it weren't simply sad that you do not recognize ummm the fact that shigihara's playing is creative and interesting. watch in amazement as he keeps the groove WITHOUT a drum machine, plays solos, basslines, chords, uses SPACE (meaning he does't play any NOTES) to make a sronger musical statement, plays melodically...and to top it all off, listens to and interacts with another human being in the process of making music. on the spot.
now i know you said your clip was just practice...but it says a lot about your playing.
i just don't understand where you get off calling shigihara's playing "snooze fest city". if you believe this, you are truly clueless about music.
on a larger level, you seems determined that this method will "100% work for everyone", and in fact you guarantee it - what is your guarantee? some of the players here have used this method and said that it didn't "work for them". so what! you made your point that you like this method. 'nuff said.
but i think some self examination is in order here - by you, Tag.
and probably an apology or two.
the above is what you said about lalaland, but from your other statements I can't imagine you understand what shigihara is doing, and you are certainly willing to criticize him. absurd.
Thats the first one I watched. IMO, Highly polished and very nice player, who played exactly what I would expect to hear from many jazz players. Nothing caught my ear at all. Just a matter of taste I guess, but I HONESTLY thought my lines were much more interesting, thats why I played them.
You feel differently, cool! Lets get back on track now, eh?
KRosser
09-10-2007, 09:23 AM
Tag
you might want to go check this clip out (since you ask for clips).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JQkutPDxQQ&mode=related&search=
Fantastic. Just beautiful.
Did you check out some of those other duet clips too? I want a CD of all of this stuff....
Your 'Chinese' metaphor doesn't work here, I think. If knowledge of the mechanics of the music is necessary for its enjoyment, there's something wrong, I think.
I've done a lot of work with various programs bringing music to schools and various cultural events, etc., and one thing I've learned is that you can give people the undiluted stuff without any disclaimers like "this is difficult to understand", or "you need to know the details to get this" or "this is not something the common people will like" or "this won't taste very good but swallow it because it's good for you" and you always get great receptions at these things.
As I've said before in another thread, it's been my experience people really relate to sincere conviction when it comes to performances and if you have that going for you, they'll listen to all kinds of stuff they don't understand.
Thats a ligitimate theory. I just do not agree with it generally speaking. Jazz would be wildly popular if that were the case. Its not. IMO, because most have bad ears that can not follow it at all.
KRosser
09-10-2007, 09:28 AM
Thats the first one I watched. IMO, Highly polished and very nice player, who played exactly what I would expect to hear from many jazz players. Nothing caught my ear at all. Just a matter of taste I guess, but I HONESTLY thought my lines were much more interesting, thats why I played them.
You feel differently, cool! Lets get back on track now, eh?
Wait - you don't have to respect anyone that "can't play", you insult other people here and say this is all about the clips, then someone posts one of Shigihara playing so out of your orbit musically, technically and creatively it isn't even funny and now we're "off track"?
Dude....way to go.
dude, never ever did i say what i thought of your playing...
the one thing i've said is that i find it amazing that someone
who is an intermediate jazz improvisor is lecturing everybody...
What you call lecturing, I call trying to explain a method that few had any concept of at all. Even very accomplished teachers and players it seems.
Again, this is the method used by George Benson and Ritchie Hart. Check out their playing if you are unfamiliar with them. See if you think they are intermediate players. ;)
KRosser
09-10-2007, 09:31 AM
Thats a ligitimate theory. I just do not agree with it generally speaking. Jazz would be wildly popular if that were the case. Its not. IMO, because most have bad ears that can not follow it at all.
Good luck to you in your future musical endeavors.
Wait - you don't have to respect anyone that "can't play", you insult other people here and say this is all about the clips, then someone posts one of Shigihara playing so out of your orbit musically, technically and creatively it isn't even funny and now we're "off track"?
Dude....way to go.
:confused: I am talking about getting away from comparing players, and lets talk about the method. If you want to keep going, Ill start posting some Benson clips. :D The ONE player I mentioned was Lala, who was obvioulsly arguing while googling answers about every thing he did not know. He posted clips of his playing, which to ME showed he was not hearing ANYTHING he was arguing with me about. It was as simple as that. Shig came in, and commented about my playing, so I gave my honest opionion of his. If you want to keep going with this, please start another thread about it and I will join you there, I promise! Lets get this one back on track about the Benson method.
:dude
KRosser
09-10-2007, 09:42 AM
:confused: I am talking about getting away from comparing players, and lets talk about the method. If you want to keep going, Ill start posting some Benson clips.
Tag, YOU are not George Benson.
Good luck to you in your future musical endeavors.
hangten
09-10-2007, 09:51 AM
Fantastic. Just beautiful.
Did you check out some of those other duet clips too? I want a CD of all of this stuff....
Ken
originally I began following this thread out of musical curiousity - i.e., hoping to learn something...and the main thing I learned is that Shigihara is a kick-ass musician! Such a great thing to find out...:dude
Paul, got any cds out?
jimfog
09-10-2007, 09:52 AM
Thats a ligitimate theory. I just do not agree with it generally speaking. .......
No, Tag.....a THEORY would be Ken posting "I IMAGINE if I presented this music to people with open ears....." etc, etc, etc....
What he said......... "I've done a lot of work with various programs bringing music to schools and various cultural events, etc., and one thing I've learned......"
That's not a theory......that observable, proven fact, by someone who has EXPERIENCED it. I wonder if you understand how insulting your response is?
Yet again, you think your limited, small opinions trump those of folks who are out there doing it on a high level. What balls.
It's amazing to me that somehow you're willing to argue with educators and performers who have actual extensive EXPERIENCE.
Being sure of yourself is a good thing............stubbornly ignoring folks who are so obviously more knowledgeable on your subject is just plain dumb and self-defeating...........and incredibly disrespectful of the time they take to help you.
In a thread like this, as a teacher and pro player, I have some thoughts that may be worth sharing......but there is absolutely no way I would ever waste my time discussing serious matters with you..............it's maddening. You literally have NEVER conceded even the smallest point EVER in a discussion on this page. I truly honestly like you, dude, and usually think you're a hoot........but why beat one's head against a wall? That's why I keep it light and jokey, usually.
I unfortunately believe Ken, Splatt, Paul, Steve, etc are a little bit masochistic to try and help you as much as they have.
I'd love to meet Ritchie Hart sometime and ask him HIS impressions of how your lessons went, confidentially. I suspect it would be a fun conversation.
- Jim
KRosser
09-10-2007, 09:56 AM
Ken
originally I began following this thread out of musical curiousity - i.e., hoping to learn something...and the main thing I learned is that Shigihara is a kick-ass musician!
We could have done that in one post instead of 40+ pages!
hear and play
09-10-2007, 09:56 AM
Tag, YOU are not George Benson.
Good luck to you in your future musical endeavors.
"Tag, I played with George Benson. I knew George Benson. George Benson was a friend of mine. Tag, you're no George Benson."
Bentsen, 1988
;)
rwe333
09-10-2007, 10:14 AM
I'd love to meet Ritchie Hart sometime and ask him HIS impressions of how your lessons went, confidentially. I suspect it would be a fun conversation.
How the lessons went is between them...
That said, it would be interesting to hear how accurately Hart feels his approach is summarized here...
Students absorb what they can when they can, i.e., they don't necessarily catch it all.
<not necessarily directed at Tag - just a comment>
shigihara
09-10-2007, 10:19 AM
See if you think they are intermediate players. ;)
c'mon... you are a piece of work... :)
just a couple of weeks ago i was on a project where i was playing
in a rhythm section backing up james moody rehearsing/playing
for 5 days... a real sweet guy at 82, still interested in learning and being openminded/humble... these guys can tell stories and you never hear a word from moody dissing/comparing other players. same with mariano who's gonna be 84 and with whom i've been playing for 24 yrs... these are influences/concepts which are much more important to me. there's more to music than meets the eye/brain...
you only seem to be listening/looking for things that confirm your beliefs in what you think is right/great... and if you think GB is the end of all things in 'guitar playing' that's fine... but imho you are denying yourself a possible development/growth as a musician... why do you insist on being 'right' all the time ?!? i don't get it...
shigihara
09-10-2007, 10:27 AM
That said, it would be interesting to hear how accurately Hart feels his approach is summarized here...
<not necessarily directed at Tag - just a comment>
:)
i totally enjoy GB's dvd... his attitude/spirit... being at ease with himself.
i always crack up when he says: 'it's fun... and you can do it too !'
what better lesson than watching the man enjoying what he can do so well !!!
chopsley
09-10-2007, 10:28 AM
Tag
you might want to go check this clip out (since you ask for clips).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JQkutPDxQQ&mode=related&search=
Excellent clip, thanks for the link. The tune where Mr. Shigihara is playing fretless is really nice.
jimfog
09-10-2007, 10:31 AM
How the lessons went is between them...
well, obviously, Wayne.....
But you have to admit......wouldn't you like to be a fly on that wall?
....or even better, hear RH's comments AFTER the lessons.....lol.
I wonder if he drinks now?!
:rotflmao
- Jim
KRosser
09-10-2007, 10:32 AM
what better lesson than watching the man enjoying what he can do so well !!!
Indeed....
"Tag, I played with George Benson. I knew George Benson. George Benson was a friend of mine. Tag, you're no George Benson."
Bentsen, 1988
;)
That puts me in a VERY large group of people. I see you yourself, Ken, and Shig standing right next to me. :D (Sorry, I could not resist that one!) ;)
shigihara
09-10-2007, 10:43 AM
(Sorry, I could not resist that one!) ;)
oh man... you're hopeless...
who wants to be someone else anyway... ?!?
i'm happy/busy with being myself...:D
i met GB once and it was a very pleasant experience
which i can't say about meeting you in cyberspace...
peace...
c'mon... you are a piece of work... :)
just a couple of weeks ago i was on a project where i was playing
in a rhythm section backing up james moody rehearsing/playing
for 5 days... a real sweet guy at 82, still interested in learning and being openminded/humble... these guys can tell stories and you never hear a word from moody dissing/comparing other players. same with mariano who's gonna be 84 and with whom i've been playing for 24 yrs... these are influences/concepts which are much more important to me. there's more to music than meets the eye/brain...
you only seem to be listening/looking for things that confirm your beliefs in what you think is right/great... and if you think GB is the end of all things in 'guitar playing' that's fine... but imho you are denying yourself a possible development/growth as a musician... why do you insist on being 'right' all the time ?!? i don't get it...
Ahhhh....Great post! I am only trying to be "right" in showing that this system is not limiting in any form.
Playing with James Moody huh? One of my all time faves! You must have had a blast! He does my all time favorite version of Autumn leaves.
I still have most of my lessons with Ritchie on cassettes. I believe in one you can hear him say trying to teach me something different was harder than pulling teeth. :AOK LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
oh man... you're hopeless...
who wants to be someone else anyway... ?!?
i'm happy/busy with being myself...:D
i met GB once and it was a very pleasant experience
which i can't say about meeting you in cyberspace...
peace...
Oh stop that. You have loved every minute of it, and I am sure are messing with this system now, and are on your way to becoming a much better player already! :p
How the lessons went is between them...
That said, it would be interesting to hear how accurately Hart feels his approach is summarized here...
Students absorb what they can when they can, i.e., they don't necessarily catch it all.
<not necessarily directed at Tag - just a comment>
I have several hundred tapes of him explaining it to me over and over and over again. I would bet he says it is a pretty good explanation. I would scan in some of the paper work explaining it, but I actually threw it out only a few months ago.
No, Tag.....a THEORY would be Ken posting "I IMAGINE if I presented this music to people with open ears....." etc, etc, etc....
What he said......... "I've done a lot of work with various programs bringing music to schools and various cultural events, etc., and one thing I've learned......"
That's not a theory......that observable, proven fact, by someone who has EXPERIENCED it. I wonder if you understand how insulting your response is?
Yet again, you think your limited, small opinions trump those of folks who are out there doing it on a high level. What balls.
It's amazing to me that somehow you're willing to argue with educators and performers who have actual extensive EXPERIENCE.
Being sure of yourself is a good thing............stubbornly ignoring folks who are so obviously more knowledgeable on your subject is just plain dumb and self-defeating...........and incredibly disrespectful of the time they take to help you.
In a thread like this, as a teacher and pro player, I have some thoughts that may be worth sharing......but there is absolutely no way I would ever waste my time discussing serious matters with you..............it's maddening. You literally have NEVER conceded even the smallest point EVER in a discussion on this page. I truly honestly like you, dude, and usually think you're a hoot........but why beat one's head against a wall? That's why I keep it light and jokey, usually.
I unfortunately believe Ken, Splatt, Paul, Steve, etc are a little bit masochistic to try and help you as much as they have.
I'd love to meet Ritchie Hart sometime and ask him HIS impressions of how your lessons went, confidentially. I suspect it would be a fun conversation.
- Jim
I stand by my post. Its my honest belief, and experience, as Kens is with his.
I think the number of people buying jazz records presently is a GREAT indication of how many people will accept music they do not understand, even when the artists "sincere conviction" is there.
shigihara
09-10-2007, 10:58 AM
Oh stop that. You have loved every minute of it, and I am sure are messing with this system now, and are on your way to becoming a much better player already! :p
good luck in life & music !
peace...
jimfog
09-10-2007, 11:00 AM
I stand by my post.
No shit
good luck in life & music !
peace...
Ah well....my attempt at humor and to lighten things up failed. :(
I can deal! :RoCkIn
Clifford-D
09-10-2007, 11:13 AM
oh man... you're hopeless...
who wants to be someone else anyway... ?!?
i'm happy/busy with being myself...:D
i met GB once and it was a very pleasant experience
which i can't say about meeting you in cyberspace...
peace...
But yet you feed the beast.
We all fed and are feeding the beast.
Stop feeding the beast and it will die.
Why does the beast still feed?
How does that serve us??
Let it die. All points have been made.1,000,000,000,,00000,,,00,0 x's over
Time for some white light.
just my opinion.
I mean. $hit, this guy lost me at "hello a$$wipes".
azgolfer
09-10-2007, 11:19 AM
That's not a theory......that observable, proven fact, by someone who has EXPERIENCED it. I wonder if you understand how insulting your response is?
This is not a fact, it's an opinion. There are no absolutes in harmony, some people like a sound and others don't. Many, many people don't care for bebop type lines or anything "out" at all.
jimfog
09-10-2007, 11:21 AM
This is not a fact, it's an opinion. There are no absolutes in harmony, some people like a sound and others don't. Many, many people don't care for bebop type lines or anything "out" at all.
Please read the context of what I was talking about.
Please read the context of what I was talking about.
You do the same for mine.
I am setting up shop to give some examples of this method in action soon, so sit tight and grab your popcorn! :munch
HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Tag, of all the insults that you've thrown out, of all the incorrect things you've said - this is the worst one. I'm more offended by this than anything you've said thus far. The statement above is horridly incorrect.
I googled ONE - I repeat - ONE thing (AND it wasn't even directly related to the topic!) To be specific, it was that a diminished chord could not function as a tonic. I stated this from my own personal experience, learning, knowledge etc. Kimock agreed with me. You failed to give a SINGLE example proving me otherwise but persisted to claim you were correct. After both Steve and I had pointed this out, THEN I went to google and found written sources to back up what I said. As if this is even a problem in the first place... I didn't 'learn' this from google.
I don't know what other pieces of information I've learned from places you learn stuff - the field, other players, teachers, classes, the internet, books, videos, whatever. There is not a single thing that I stated that I found using Google. I challenge you to point me to a single example of that. I don't get it, why would you even have a reason to believe what you said. You haven't stated a single thing that I "don't understand", whether or not I applied it in the playing that you heard of me. Since you've heard me play, you've ignored the bulk of my posts, and simply dismissed my comments with "Well, I play better than him so he's wrong." Should I discard your advice since you haven't played guitar in two months, and haven't gigged in years?
My view is no, your's obviously isn't.
I bet if people just had better ears, North Indian Classical music would be more popular. Or classical Egyptian music. Or Stravinsky. Or whatever.
Get over this idea that people "Just don't get it."
There's nothing to 'get' when you're talking about listening to music. Its all right there.
Playing is different of course...
Child's ear.
Child's mind.
Jamie
Nothing to do with playing better or worse. Its just that you are talking about things that you do not hear. IMO, there is no point in discusssing it with you then. Sorry, that is my belief. I speak with other players on here, and they are in total agreement with me, but do not post it.
I did not know of any recorded examples of the diminished "tonic" thing, so I gave you a one chord vamp as a perfect example. You still did not buy it. Then Jack came on and showed that yourself, and Steve were simply wrong.
If that was the only thing you googled, then my sincere apology in that one regard.
jimfog
09-10-2007, 11:34 AM
You do the same for mine.
?????? What are you talking about?
I quoted and was talking to AZgolfer, who misread what I was referring to in my quote (ie, Ken having played new and difficult music for folks wih open ears).
Now this is getting silly.
BTW....I should have mentioned. Since you have spent more time working specifically on trad. jazz, Tag, I read your posts and check out what you have to say........ and respect your opinion, even if I disagree. Like most people here who are arguing with you, I have no problem with your original premise......it's just that you take it too far, and then discount everyone else and every other viewpoint, to the exclusion of possibly learning something new.
- Jim
Time for some white light.
Agreed. lets get back to
"THE METHOD!
:D
?????? What are you talking about?
I quoted and was talking to AZgolfer, who misread what I was referring to in my quote (ie, Ken having played new and difficult music for folks wih open ears).
Now this is getting silly.
BTW....I should have mentioned. Since you have spent more time working specifically on trad. jazz, Tag, I read your posts and check out what you have to say........ and respect your opinion, even if I disagree. Like most people here who are arguing with you, I have no problem with your original premise......it's just that you take it too far, and then discount everyone else and every other viewpoint, to the exclusion of possibly learning something new.
- Jim
Hey Jim,
What exactly have I dismissed? Please be specific. Thanks! I have only tried to explain this method and show it really did not have any weak points.
azgolfer
09-10-2007, 11:46 AM
Please read the context of what I was talking about.
I did read the context. Of course, people will give you lip service and be polite, but then they will go home and listen to their rock records. IMO, complicated forms of music take a while to appreciate, and their audience is limited. I certainly didn't like bebop when I first heard it. Ken's credentials don't mean that his opinion on this subject is fact.
Clifford-D
09-10-2007, 11:48 AM
Agreed. lets get back to
"THE METHOD!
:D
So you're not calling it "the George Benson Method" any more??
Why is that??
I thought this was "The George Benson Method" thread.
What happened??
Oh darn, now it wont work, here let me grab my guitar and see,,,
yea, it don't work no more, captain.
Why George, why??? Why would you leave us like this??
We were believers, followers, dreamers.
You took it all away. Why, Why?
azgolfer
09-10-2007, 11:48 AM
And yet still, I have not a single example...
Please Tag (and I mean this in all seriousness), post some clips of Coltrane, Miles or whoever playing in this fasion. You have yet to do that yet except for one incorrect example.
Jamie
You seem to think there is an absolute rule for what is a tonic. What is the tonic in "free" jazz songs ? Or twelve tone music ?
hangten
09-10-2007, 12:01 PM
What exactly have I dismissed? Please be specific. Thanks! I have only tried to explain this method and show it really did not have any weak points. __________________
this thread will go on in circles like this ad nauseum, ad infinitum if we let it.
Tag, you're it.
Clifford-D
09-10-2007, 12:15 PM
You seem to think there is an absolute rule for what is a tonic. What is the tonic in "free" jazz songs ? Or twelve tone music ?
I'd like to try to think "Jamie" for a moment.
Imagine a piece of rubber stretched out over a drum head.
You push into it and all the peripheral area surrounding your
finger bends to form a funnel.
The deepest point in the funnel is like the tonic, the slope of the funnel is like a
harmonic web that surrounds the tonic. It all relates.
I wont get into how the "harmonic web" is arrived at.
3rds, 5ths, their multiples, compounds, and reciprocals, but it's pretty cool.
Getting back to the drum,Think of that point on the big drum your pressing on,
if you move your finger around (play different notes) for each note played,
(each point pressed into the rubber) a new harmonic web will
surround the note.
Like traveling over a landscape. Or Google Earth, the way you can scroll
up, down, across.
All notes are available, even distant ones, if you look at how they relate
surrounding the curent tonic in the curent "harmonic web".
Walking on rice paper here. May be too high. (lofty?)
Best leave it at that. Ain't all that smart yet.
Yet.
:)
azgolfer
09-10-2007, 12:16 PM
this thread will go on in circles like this ad nauseum, ad infinitum if we let it.
Only if people make posts like yours.
Actually, the two sound theory is more of a meta-theory. You can take all the techniques you already know and apply the meta-theory to them - so all that stuff that you know for dominant chords now applies to II, IV, and VII chords.
And yet still, I have not a single example...
Please Tag (and I mean this in all seriousness), post some clips of Coltrane, Miles or whoever playing in this fasion. You have yet to do that yet except for one incorrect example.
Jamie
I told you I am not sure of any, but they do exist. Zucker came on and said he wrote some himself, are you doubting him? Somewhere I have a tape of Ritchie Hart speaking about this EXACT thing. "ANY CHORD INCLUDING A DIMINISHED CHORD can act as the tonic."
Forget it, believe what you googled. :)
So you're not calling it "the George Benson Method" any more??
Why is that??
I thought this was "The George Benson Method" thread.
What happened??
Oh darn, now it wont work, here let me grab my guitar and see,,,
yea, it don't work no more, captain.
Why George, why??? Why would you leave us like this??
We were believers, followers, dreamers.
You took it all away. Why, Why?
HUH?? Everything works EXACTLY as I stated in the very opening post. I have zero idea what you are talking about here, and I dont think you do either. This is the method Benson uses, and was taught to my former teacher.
:BEER
Only if people make posts like yours.
Actually, the two sound theory is more of a meta-theory. You can take all the techniques you already know and apply the meta-theory to them - so all that stuff that you know for dominant chords now applies to II, IV, and VII chords.
yep...and the I-III-VI.
Again, you can search and find exceptions for ANYTHING, but this holds up like 99% of the time. Also, like ANY method, it takes hard work and practice, but it will bring you places no other method does, or, at the very least, bring you there in a fraction of the time.
:dude
Clifford-D
09-10-2007, 12:31 PM
HUH?? Everything works EXACTLY as I stated in the very opening post. I have zero idea what you are talking about here, and I dont think you do either. This is the method Benson uses, and was taught to my former teacher.
:BEER
I think you're high!
Did not GB come on board and set things straight? Did he not say
his secret is safe??
Dude, if it wasn't for flashbacks, you'd have no memory at all.
?
this thread will go on in circles like this ad nauseum, ad infinitum if we let it.
Tag, you're it.
Way to avoid the question!
I think you're high!
Like my IQ scores!
:BEER
Clifford-D
09-10-2007, 12:36 PM
Like my IQ scores!
:BEER
Like Hanabal.
:flush:
..
I think you're high!
Did not GB come on board and set things straight? Did he not say
his secret is safe??
Dude, if it wasn't for flashbacks, you'd have no memory at all.
?
IF that was George (or more likely even if it was not), you do realize he was joking I hope.
Clifford-D
09-10-2007, 01:16 PM
|
|--------|
|...........|
|.........(**)
|..........__
|...........|
|.......... /\
|.........,
|\.....,,,,,,,,,,,,........
RIP
clifford
.
zoooombiex
09-10-2007, 02:19 PM
Also, I'm don't think anyone has said you can ONLY play in the chord. (same fallacy as in a previous post, now 10 points). it's not like you are either using tag's system or you are forced to play in the chord. some people are just using a different approach that starts with the chord itself rather than whether the chord is at rest/unresolved (tonic/dom in your terms). both give you lots of options, but by a different method.Cool. And how do you find alternate sounds to use in these systems over said chords? Guess work? Trial and error?
Here are some examples from earlier in this thread where Ken explained (or at least gave insight into) another method:
In the key of C, you're saying if there's G7 - C, you can play a D minor triad, D-F-A, over the G since it's also a member of the dominant family.
I'm saying - I can make the melody D - F - A over the G7 recognizing they represent the 5th, 7th & 9th respectively of the chord.
Now here's the part that's apparently hard for you -
This is not the same method!
..even if it sometimes produces the same results...
It comes up short FOR ME because it's not the easiest way to come up with sounds like (G7) G - A - Ab - F# (C) - Eb
Because when I play with guys like Ottmaro Ruiz that like these kinds of sounds they'll harmonize that Eb over C with a B/C polychord, or an Ab/C polychord. Then he smiles at me and we have acheived interplay. You know, jazz, dude....
I like it because it helps me think more freely with all 12 chromatic notes at any time
Even if I come up with a line exactly note for note what you would play, it's the fastest way there FOR ME.
Whereas if I were to play a D chord over that Cmaj7, it would not be out of a sense of any dominant substitution, it would be because I heard a IV Lydian sound, separate to my ear from either tonic or dominant. Then maybe I'd drop all the voices a parallel M2 and play a C major over the following F#m7b5 - or is that not allowed, using a tonic sound over a dominant function chord?
Again, I just don't see taking the 'extra step' to make that distinction, especially since I rarely look at a solo as a series of tensions and resolutions, but rather as a long arc that might or might not resolve at all
No, I'll say it one more time:
Just because my approach produces many of the same sounds and notes as yours in analysis does not mean I'm using yours to produce the notes.
My way of arriving at a C triad over F#m7b5 was not produced using your method. It was arrived at by building a diatonic triad off one of the chord tones. I might also build a non-diatonic triad off one of the chord tones if I want something dissonant (i.e., Cm in this case, or Cm7b5, or even bigger chords)
This particular thing and much more was laid out to me by the great tenor player Bennie Wallace, via the appendix to the Karg-Elert Flute Caprices, a pretty mind-blowing harmonic goldmine for me at the time....I'd love to get the time to work back through it again.
If I take the Harbor Freeway and you take the Santa Monica Freeway and we both arrive downtown, are you gonna say, "See? Since you're downtown you must have taken the Santa Monica Freeway and not realized it!"
Ummmm...no.
Just for clarification, to me 'making melodies out of chord tones' and 'running arpeggios' can and should be two different things, though of course there's a learning curve involved.
Ultimately I prefer to think of the chord tones as potential arrival or departure points along the way, stepping stones across a garden, if you will....if you look to the other end of the garden and see the stepping stones, it doesn't matter how off the stepping stones you go, or whether you only walk on them, in between them, hit every third one, what have you...you can still get there as long as you see that path of stones.
Tag - this is all good. But, none of it is exclusive to "your/Benson's" system. This is all just chord substitution, very basic stuff. Very nice basic stuff, but basic stuff that people using all kinds of approaches have been doing for a long time.
I do this stuff all the time and never think "everything is either tonic or dominant" while I'm doing it. Again, I think of chord tones - Cmaj7#11, lydian chord off the 7th - Ab7, seventh chord off the diminished 5th - Eb7, seventh chord off the b9th - C#maj7#11, lydian chord off the maj7th
I can build whatever chord off of whatever intervallic relationship to the chord of all 12 notes, be they major, minor, 7th, m7th, augmented, diminished, polytonal clusters, stacks of fourths, stacks of half steps...
Etc, etc.
The chord tones are still the stepping stones, whether I'm stepping on them or using them for navigational purposes from afar.
It seems to me the definition of your system keeps getting stretched to maintain your "rightness"....
But, whatever way of looking at it produces the sound...
Right?
OK, Tag, I'm tentatively feeling like we're getting somewhere:
1) Not random - C#maj7#11 shares a common tone with D7 (B# and C, respectively and enharmonically). I could very easily build it that way. I can also connect it to any chord (w/extensions) you can name by the same way. Go ahead - try me. I don't need to think of them as 'tensions or resolutions' - that takes care of itself. I have bigger fish to fry.
This is why I like looking at things this way (I'm not calling it a 'method' anymore, because it's not really a method, in that it doesn't tell you how to do anything) - if I want to insert a randomly generated sound, with my view of chord tones I can do anything with it.
And why can't I use randomly generated sounds? We are improvising, right? Making it up as we go along? The sound of surprise? Monk used them. Jim Hall still uses them. Sonny Rollins uses them. Miles used them. Dolphy used them. Herbie Hancock used them. Etc. etc. Master improvisors. Doesn't matter what sounds are introduced, it only matters what I do with them.
Either way - laws need theory behind them. Science needs theory behind it. Art doesn't. You think the listener's gonna know what the theory is behind you using that chord? You think the listener's gonna know if there wasn't? If I'm good, they'll never know. What matters is where you take the listener. Art is sleight of hand. You move some air molecules around and make people cry. Or dance. Or dream. Or laugh. Or get angry. Or all of the above. That takes a lot more than "everything is tonic or dominant and that's all you need to know". Yes, knowing dominant-tonic resolutions really helps. But that's such a small thing....
2) Again, saying all of music is either tonic or dominant is a reductivist cop-out. You can't use those terms interchangeably with tension-resolution, because that betrays an ignorance of the terms, and Benson hardly has a proprietary stamp on the concept of tension & resolution.
There are plenty of other resolutions besides tonic-dominant. A plagal cadence (F to C) is a different sound than an authentic cadence (G to C). So Benson says I can substitute a plagal cadence for an authentic one. Fine. It still doesn't make it dominant-tonic. It's subdominant-tonic. Different sound. Different function, as it requires different voice-leading to resolve. It doesn't even need to have the same goal - F to Am - deceptive plagal cadence. Different sound. Different function. I don't want to simplify them by treating them all as G-C. I want to think of them as different things even if I am substituting them around ona jazz tune. If I sub Am for C, I'd much rather think of it as a C with an added 6th than as a substitution from the 'tonic family'. If I sub Bb7 for G7, I'd much rather think of it as b9 and #9 added to the chord tones I already have in G7 (D &F). Etc. TO ME, that's simpler.
One more word about jazz chord subs -
OK, blues in C - start with C7. Subbing Gm7, Bbmaj7, Am7b5, Dm7, D7, F#m7b5, F#7, Eb7, A7, Cm7b5, Ab7, Bb7, Bbm7b5, C#mM7, etc. to me is not particularly tricky because that's all in just harmonizing the various scale applications. I don't like having to think of another chord than what I'm playing, so I justify all of these in terms of C (i.e., Dm7/C7 is C13sus4, C#mM7 is C7#5b9, Ab7 is C7b5#5#9). That stuff Coltrane used to do where he'd go C7-E7-G#7-C7-E7-G#7, etc, over this C7 chord? He got that from Nick Slonimsky. Do you know the Slonimsky 'Thesaurus of Scales'? You should. If this is your thing you'd like it. All those guys were working out of that in the 60's - Coltrane, Dolphy, Shorter, Hancock, etc
I like subbing Bmaj7 for the C7 because it gives you the b5 and #9 as well as both 7ths.
When I started assimilating these vocabulary sounds, I found it much easier to think of them as extensions off C than superimposed sequences. Many of the same sounds you're lusting after, at least as far as mainstream jazz playing goes. I just approach them differently in terms of how I look at them, and I try to connect everything via a common or neighbor tone, that way I don't have to worry about forcing any resolutions. If a tonic/dominant relationship is truly implied by the underlying harmony, it will take care of itself. It doesn't need any reinforcement from me.
I strongly suspect that's what most of the players you say in post-analysis are using this method are really doing (such as Parker, Coltrane, etc....).
azgolfer
09-10-2007, 02:56 PM
Ok, I'm playing Blue Bossa again. I'm trying my B Melodic minor licks (all 2 of them) over the Fm and Dm7b5->Gb9. Seems you have to be a little more careful to find something that sounds good.
Here are some examples from earlier in this thread where Ken explained (or at least gave insight into) another method:
I already went through each and everyone of those. What ken is saying is the system I was originally taught, then untaught myself, which is basically follow the chords. (chord chasing) It leaves LOTS of guess work at firsty, OR, reworded, a LOT more trial and error to arrive at the same points. Even then, it does not lead to as logical progressions as easily. You can simply learn every scale and every chord too. EVENTUALLY, you will hear it the same way, OR, be playing it the same way even if you do not realize it. (Which ken is saying when he says it takes care of itself.) YES, if you play chord by chord, all of the functions will work out on their own, but great jazz players do NOT play chord by chord. These sounds are subbed all of the time for each other, and this method shows you that right from the beginning. A Subdominant sound is just a milder dominant sound. It is still pulling your ear back to the resting area. Joe pass, Benson and on and on have said EXACTLY that. The benson method shows you that right from the beginning. It also shows how D altered lines are played over an A minor chord for instance, as well as other chords. This system frees you up fast from chord chasing, and that is VERY GOOD VERY GOOD!! I will record examples very soon.
chopsley
09-10-2007, 03:02 PM
Here are some examples from earlier in this thread where Ken explained (or at least gave insight into) another method:
Thank you, that's a great summary!
And thanks to Ken for taking the time to provide all that information.
[quote]Oh, I forgot that Ritchie Hart can't be wrong.
What is the home sound on a one chord diminished vamp? No, Ritchie is not wrong because he backed up everything with examples PROVING the point.
By the way, I meant that I'd like to hear Miles or Coltrane solo in the method you discribed. Sorry if that was confusing, the syntax was a little weird.
they do in pretty much every song.
FWIW Tag, if you read my post where I explain why this method doesn't do it for me, this was exactly the thrust of it. You read the first line, misquoted it, and then used it in a way to attempt to show that I didn't understand 'the most basic thing' about jazz.
No, I listened to your key centered playing, and heard that you did not hear anything else.
Hold your horses there, you may have missed something, but 'chord chasing' is not implied at all my what Ken is saying. He's talking about knowing the harmonic function of notes are over a certian chord
Based upon the root chord, not the functioning sound of that chord. The functioning sound gives you many other options BESIDES THE EXTENSIONS OF THE ROOT CHORD. YOu ALSO GET THE EXTENSIONS OF ALL OF THE RELATIVE CHORDS.
Why I am saying this to you for the 10000000000th time makes no sense, because you do not HEAR the function of the chords. Again, PLEASE go learn to hear them, use them, then come back. You are not hearing what you are talking about, so it is useless.
Tag, I've been using your method for years
No you have not.
except with chords instead of lines because mentally its makes it alot easier to grab 4 or 5 note altered chords in the heat of battle. Would I use it over a ballad or something a little bit slower? Nah.
Which you use it the opposite way, to provide MORE chords over the basic ones, which I realize you do not do, and is shown in your above statement.
This thread is like a car crash thats horrible to watch, but you can't look away.
I know Tag, kinda like my playing right?
No, your playing is not bad at all, as I said. You are just a key centered player right now. You need to get all of these sounds in your head before you start talking about them.
[quote]
If you have all these tapes of your lessons, why don't you find me what he claims is an example of a diminished tonic. Good luck!
Still doubt me. Lol! The closest i can find for now....
"You can make diminished chords sound consonant or dissonant, and to varying degrees."
Ok man. Live in your world of tonic diminished chords.
You live in it whether you like it or not.
I didn't PLAY anything else.
Exactly. When you hear it, you will.
I'm guessing that you're not responding to Ken or my posts to this effect because you don't have an effective answer.
Whats the question?
Ken's approach doesn't ignore function.
No, he plays on each chord, so there is no need.
You incorrectly assume that he speaks of the 'root' chord, when the extensions are all right there. If there are 12 notes, they are all in play. You just have to know how they work over the chord thats being played - whether that chord is resolving to another or its tonic - and not over a chord substitution.
And THAT is the problem! This system shows exactly which of those notes relate, and HOW they relate, right from the beginning.
Ken's example with the Dm7 and G7 was a great example of that.
Not really. He is just looking at the chords extensions which is fine, but you can just take the major scale, harmonize it in thirds, and say play them all in that case! No, you cant really, because the way you play those notes determins the function.
Man, I've never know anyone in the world who claimed to know what someone else was hearing.
Really? Well now you know at least one, and I assure you that when you hear all the sounds, you will be able to tell in most cases as well.;)
By your logic, listening to Miles play over 'So What' (sorry to keep using this example, but it was brought up) implies that he doesn't hear the sounds that you are talking about.
On that track alone, without Miles even playing ANYTHING other than the basic mode (and he does more than that as has been shown), I can tell within a few notes he is hearing it.
I sent you SIMPLE backing tracks and asked you specifically to post clips showing you could hear it. Nothing yet.
Ha!
You can also tell what approach I'm using on songs you haven't heard me play!
yep.
Will you let me know when I can hear them Tag?
Yea, keep practicing and posting clips. Ill let you know.
:BEER
KRosser
09-10-2007, 09:09 PM
No, he plays on each chord, so there is no need.
No, I don't.
Good luck to you in your future musical endeavors.
russ6100
09-10-2007, 09:16 PM
Holy JuhHeeezzuss-ah in a side-car with a freakin' FLAT TIRE!!!!
This "Can't have a diminished chord as tonic" sub-thread sure is an annoying distraction from our regularly scheduled programming!
First of all, who cares if it can meet all the qualifications needed to truly be tonic? Call it something else.....maybe colonic...
Write a tune with 32 bars of A dim, 16 bars of Bb dim, and 16 bars of A dim. There ya go. Done. It's not against the law.
What a bunch of hair-splitters! :horse
:rotflmao
Lucidology
09-10-2007, 09:37 PM
Good luck to you in your future musical endeavors.
Ken... you've said this more then a few times now to Tag..:YinYang
What's that line from Young Frankenstein movie said with a lisp
by the femme fatale Madeline Kahn to Frankenstein:
"You're such a knifes guy"
rwe333
09-10-2007, 10:04 PM
[quote=Tag;2946473]No, he plays on each chord, so there is no need.
Ken Rosser? Man! The toolkit this cat draws from is more than a little extensive. Trust me on this. Cast the assumptions aside, mate.
KRosser
09-10-2007, 11:23 PM
I think tonic as a musical function is an absoulte. The function of tonic is 'rest', 'resolution' and 'return'. This is also how it has been applied in Tag's thread.
Can we agree on that definition?
I'm going to proceed as if we did.
Not so fast!
First, a disclaimer: as an improvisor, I'm not an ideologue. I know lots of methods & approaches, including our dear friend Tag's, and i will use anything I need to get the job done.
One thing, though, I feel pretty strongly about: as I've grown older as an improvisor I find I'm attracted to larger and longer 'gestures', and that a solo full of lots of little fits and starts of tension to resolution to tension to resolution is less appealing to me.
So, technically speaking, I don't view a 'tonic' chord as a resting place, necessarily, though it may serve that internal function in the tune....
As far as I'm concerned, the whole thing is in motion until I end it.
azgolfer
09-10-2007, 11:50 PM
http://www.ibiblio.org/medicine/html/oil.jpg
Tonic, relieves tension !
KRosser
09-10-2007, 11:51 PM
Ken... you've said this more then a few times now to Tag..:YinYang
Three, to be exact.
What's that line from Young Frankenstein movie said with a lisp
by the femme fatale Madeline Kahn to Frankenstein:
"You're such a knifes guy"
One of my favorite movies of all time. I saw it in the theaters on its original run. I did gigs in front of Gene Wilder & Peter Boyle and I was as thrilled as I would have been playing in front of any famous musician....
KRosser
09-11-2007, 12:01 AM
Cool. I don't think we're at odds here. I'm just using the tonic definition as a jump-off point for this particular issue. Whether or not any tonic is the overall resting place for a song, the definition would be close to that, yes?
If not, what would you define it as?
As far as longer gestures, I hit your other thread (great advice over there by the way). The longer gestures thing is why I love human interaction. Hearing a harmonic, rhythmic or dynamic build between a group of improvisers is probably the most exciting this I've ever experience in this world.
For me, those smaller gestures can still work as long as they're part of some larger framework.
Thanks for the post.
Just trying to define tonic for the sake of the argument.
Nice talking with ya,
Jamie
Yes - by definition the tonic is the center of gravity for the key.
I don't think we're at odds at all, really. Just extrapolating a little of my own peculiar way of viewing these things - that even if I decide to resolve the harmonic tensions, I will come up with another device to keep the motion happening.
Of course, in my experience if an improvisation is really happening, little to no conscious decision-making is taking place at all.
KRosser
09-11-2007, 12:33 AM
What ken is saying is the system I was originally taught, then untaught myself, which is basically follow the chords.
No, not follow. Relate it to the chords (or a chord), when and if you need to relate it to something. Even if it's a sub.
It leaves LOTS of guess work at firsty, OR, reworded, a LOT more trial and error to arrive at the same points.
What 'guesswork'? What have I been playing, listening to and studying music for 40 years for?
I don't want anything to follow other than my instincts...why else would I improvise?
Good luck to you in your future musical endeavors.
What 'guesswork'? What have I been playing, listening to and studying music for 40 years for?
Exactly. In this system you probably would have found those sounds in 6 months.
One thing, though, I feel pretty strongly about: as I've grown older as an improvisor I find I'm attracted to larger and longer 'gestures', and that a solo full of lots of little fits and starts of tension to resolution to tension to resolution is less appealing to me.
AHHHHHHH!!!! So now you are playing more function groups than chord to chord!!! I KNEW you would come around! :p
shigihara
09-11-2007, 07:05 AM
Exactly. In this system you probably would have found those sounds in 6 months.
........ i'm speechless.......
Man, I HOPE this is a joke.
Jamie
No. Longer and longer gestures instead of moving back and forth from tonic to dominant so much would mean you are staying in one area longer than another. If it is a tonic area, that means you are not superimposing dom sounds over it, OR, grouping several tonic chords together. In a Dom area where chords are changing quickly, that means you are either grouping those together, or not superimposing tonic areas. My personal taste is somwhere in between now. Where a guy will play over each area for longer periods of time (longer gestures), and at other times move between the two quickly.(shorter gestures) It keeps your (my) ear interested, and it is not as predictable. I rememeber in another thread where Ken said he liked his ear to be surprised, and this is a way to do it harmonically speaking.
Understand rubberband?
:D
:AOK:AOK:AOK
..... yeah,
as a discussion
--- or even as a proper argument between gentlemen---
this near-deaf back'n'forthing has proven pointless
to all except those audience members
firmly entrenched in the
semi-sadistic/masochistic
peanut galleries.
it's sick, i think.
can you imagine nursing
the very same influenza
for nearly 3 years?
me?
i'd definitely see a doctor for that.
dt / spltrcl
LOL!!!!
........ i'm speechless.......
Hot tea, lemon and honey maybe? Its a good "tonic" for that. :D
;)
no fancy Bruno amp,
Well, maybe they were all great players, but they could have had better tone. :p
KRosser
09-11-2007, 09:20 AM
True story...I sub'd for a guitar player in a small church in the inner city of Kansas City this weekend, playing mostly up-tempo gospel stuff (three hours worth!!). There were a couple of bands that rotated, all from small inner city churches. The bands were absolutely killing, amazing feel and sound, complete mastery of the tricky harmonies and chord subs that gospel music is full of. The kicker...they were all inner city kids who didn't have a fancy music philosophy, no fancy Bruno amp, no fancy website bragging about all the fancy guitars they own, etc. They just played what they heard, and did so w/ joy, passion, and humility. I was completely humbled by the sights and sounds. I studied in college, practice still (at 34 years old) like a madman, etc. All of it seemed to matter very little watching these amazing players who didn't have a basement full of gear, two bookcases full of books, and 1000 cd's. It made me realize how stupid a lot of what I spend my time on is.
My point...SHUT THE !*&$*#$ PLAY YOUR GUITARS.
Wonderful story & wonderful sentiment.
However - my entire day is spent playing my guitar, pretty much every day. My contributions to this thread are pretty minimal, time-wise, I can assure you.
At some point, all of this ridiculous back and forth has to stop. There isn't a musician that has ever picked up an instrument that can be considered any more than a beginner in the grand scheme of things (music being endless and infinite). Just quiet down, figure out what it is you hear in your head, and play it. Please
Tag already has the last word, as far as I'm concerned.
squeally dan
06-05-2008, 03:06 PM
Cool info. Thanks.
Reissueplayer
07-15-2008, 02:17 PM
I have yet to read through all of the pages of this thread, but a big TY to Tag for sharing this. I've just spent an hour trying this out over a few changes and it helped me a lot. This gets me wondering though, how a similar simplification over a minor key would work. Thanks again :)
mike walker
07-15-2008, 04:57 PM
A maj chord is better than a min chord. Not opinion. Fact.
KRosser
07-15-2008, 07:19 PM
I can't believe this thread is back.
Flyin' Brian
07-15-2008, 07:24 PM
This thread keeps coming back like a nasty tracking cookie.
KRosser
07-15-2008, 07:38 PM
This thread keeps coming back like a nasty tracking cookie.
Yeah...I wish i could go back and erase my entire involvement with it, not because I've changed my mind about anything, but....it just feels dirty somehow...
:drink
Flyin' Brian
07-16-2008, 02:17 PM
Yeah...I wish i could go back and erase my entire involvement with it, not because I've changed my mind about anything, but....it just feels dirty somehow...
:drink
Yeah but I sure got educated by the things you said...I actually copy/pasted it into a word document.
gennation
07-16-2008, 04:25 PM
Yeah...I wish i could go back and erase my entire involvement with it, not because I've changed my mind about anything, but....it just feels dirty somehow...
:drink
I like it dirty! This was/is a great thread. Plus, there were a LOT of great players and "minds" in this thread, not to mention concept on top of concept.
I too would like some of my statements pulled but I would say them all again if it came up.
Clifford-D
07-17-2008, 10:55 AM
|
|---------|
|............|
|..........(**)
|........._____
|............|
|.......... /\
|.........,
|\.....,,,,,,,,,,,,........
...._____________
./| \_______V,O.|
| |_____________|
|/_____________/
.............,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,, (oo)
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,V
,,.,,,,,,/W\
,,,,,,,,,|
,,,,,,,,,,/ \,,,,,,,,,,
it's back
rockinrob
07-17-2008, 01:20 PM
It's back, great.....
:jo :banana
rhythmrocker
12-13-2009, 12:17 AM
TAG - Saw your first post - great way to think about it.
vhollund
12-13-2009, 07:11 AM
What is a good source for cliche bop lines in tab or notation that includes the context of the harmony the line is playd over?
Kind of a condensed version for us working folks with way too little time to play.
Charlie Parker.
Dickie Fredericks
12-13-2009, 07:24 AM
Im not quite sure how Tags OP really applies to what he is talking about.
All of those chords are in the C maj family. In it were told to play our C major stuff over the I, iii, and iv chords and then play D dorian over the rest.
So that works out to playing C major over all of those chords.
I guess Ive just never got a grasp on WHY we should play dorian. Ive never thought of modes that way. They end up just being patterns of the same thing at a different location on the neck.
FWIW, I have always done it this way and related everything back to a major scale. I do see its limitations and am tryingto work my way out of that corner even today.
However, most often when I see chords as in the OP I will automatically try to group them into a major scale of some sort.
I may just be missing something tonally in the OP.
stevel
12-13-2009, 12:41 PM
I guess Ive just never got a grasp on WHY we should play dorian. Ive never thought of modes that way. They end up just being patterns of the same thing at a different location on the neck.
FWIW, I have always done it this way and related everything back to a major scale. I do see its limitations and am tryingto work my way out of that corner even today.
Dickie,
FWIW, my take on the "dorian versus pattern 2 of major" is one of "concept" and "approach" rather than one of "key" or "mode" or "scale".
To put it as concisely as I know how, the difference between playing Dorian over a ii7 verus relating it back to "X Major" is one of *emphasis* - the danger being that if, in your mind, you're "thinking C Major", you're likely going to emphasize notes that point to the Tonic chord rather than to Dm7 in this case. However, if you think Dorian, you're more likely to emphasize "dorian-esque" elements (such as Dm7 or Dm9 arps, and typical Dorian flavor elements like the 6 (B in this case)).
Now, I think this has it's pros and cons. For example, if I'm playing a metal tune that's going Em - C and back, I'll just burn Em. I'm not "thinking C Lydian" over the C chord. But, if it's a ii-V-I in a jazzier context, I've found it beneficial to think Dorian over the ii, Mixolydian over the V, and Ionian (still working on approaching these a Lydian) over the I chord - even though I "know" it could all be C Major from a theoretical standpoint.
I may just be missing something tonally in the OP.
Given the length of this thread, and the most recent comments, I'm not gonna go there. I did read the original and I think that the "subsumation" of the non-tonic chords into Dominant function would probably have merits in certain situations, you're still going to run into situations where it's more important to conceptualize ii and IV as Pre-Dominant (Subdominant) function chords, and even some others where III and VI do NOT have Tonic function.
So subtle distinctions, largely based on style, but worthy of investigation IMHO.
Steve
[QUOTE]Im not quite sure how Tags OP really applies to what he is talking about.
Then I can try to explain it further if you like. :)
All of those chords are in the C maj family. In it were told to play our C major stuff over the I, iii, and iv chords and then play D dorian over the rest.
No. The I III and VI chords. Not the IV.
So that works out to playing C major over all of those chords.
No it does not. Example. Try playing your C maj lines over D minor and see how they sound. Or try playing your D minor lines over C maj and see how they sound. Wrong, thats how they sound. Just because they share the same notes does not mean you can play them the same way. God and dog have the same letters in them. Do they spell the same word or have anything to do with each other? No. However, the C Ionian lines, A Aolian lines, and E Phyrigian lines all work over C maj, or each other, because they have the same funcion. D dorian, F lydian, G Mixolidian and B locrian lines all work over each other as well. They are all pulling your ear back to one of the 3 previous chords. Listen to jazz players play! For G7 to C Maj 7 they will play F maj7 to D-7 over the G7 and E-7 to B-7 for the C for example.
I guess Ive just never got a grasp on WHY we should play dorian. Ive never thought of modes that way. They end up just being patterns of the same thing at a different location on the neck.
No they are not.
FWIW, I have always done it this way and related everything back to a major scale. I do see its limitations and am tryingto work my way out of that corner even today.
Follow what I am saying and you will get out in no time at all. Its the "magic" that MAKES you play the right notes at the right time in the right order.
However, most often when I see chords as in the OP I will automatically try to group them into a major scale of some sort.
Thats the last thing you want to do. you want to group them by FUNCTION, not into the parent scale. By grouping them into the major scale, you will not play the functions of the chords, and you will miss the changes and movement of the piece. It will come out sounding stagnant most of the time.
russ6100
12-14-2009, 02:03 AM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_pPWeU703DLk/SS10F73UOfI/AAAAAAAACGg/8COla_QQ6vI/s400/paint_by_number.gif
_______________________________________________
vhollund
12-14-2009, 03:47 AM
No it does not. Example. Try playing your C maj lines over D minor and see how they sound. Or try playing your D minor lines over C maj and see how they sound. Wrong, thats how they sound.
HAhaha
Sounds good to me
btw have you noticed how good B major sounds over C maj?
Check it out :D
HAhaha
Sounds good to me
btw have you noticed how good B major sounds over C maj?
Check it out :D
Just sharping the 11. :dunno
Try DbMaj and BMaj.
TopDog
12-15-2009, 11:13 AM
I can't believe this thread is back.
WOW...
I just read almost every post up until page 24. I can't believe this thread was not locked. Viscous!
This was like a Dumble love/hate thread. :hide
Tone Loco
12-15-2009, 11:28 AM
Just sharping the 11. :dunno
B maj over C maj you come up with just #11? What about that D#?
SteveStevens
12-15-2009, 12:13 PM
B maj over C maj you come up with just #11? What about that D#?
Bmaj over a C root is a tonic diminished sound as I hear it. Bmaj over Cmaj as a poly chord? Well, it depends what you want to emphasize in that little pallete of colours, doesn't it? Your ears and brain can justify a lot. Try it on for size and see how it feels to you. Try laying it out as a scale. (C-D#-E-F#-G-B-C) It's kind of like a major arpeggio with lower neighbours. Neat sound, but limited to a scale-like effect. Stacking offset arpeggios? Also neat, but mechanical sounding. Try WRITING lines that use these pitches and involve octave transposition and motivic elements. Or write out the pitches on pieces of paper and pull them out of a hat to determine your order to make a mini tone row. They're just notes, for gosh sakes! Use them!
Steve
Dickie Fredericks
12-15-2009, 12:19 PM
[QUOTE=Dickie Fredericks;7300043]
Then I can try to explain it further if you like. :)
No. The I III and VI chords. Not the IV.
No it does not. Example. Try playing your C maj lines over D minor and see how they sound. Or try playing your D minor lines over C maj and see how they sound. Wrong, thats how they sound. Just because they share the same notes does not mean you can play them the same way. God and dog have the same letters in them. Do they spell the same word or have anything to do with each other? No. However, the C Ionian lines, A Aolian lines, and E Phyrigian lines all work over C maj, or each other, because they have the same funcion. D dorian, F lydian, G Mixolidian and B locrian lines all work over each other as well. They are all pulling your ear back to one of the 3 previous chords. Listen to jazz players play! For G7 to C Maj 7 they will play F maj7 to D-7 over the G7 and E-7 to B-7 for the C for example.
No they are not.
Follow what I am saying and you will get out in no time at all. Its the "magic" that MAKES you play the right notes at the right time in the right order.
Thats the last thing you want to do. you want to group them by FUNCTION, not into the parent scale. By grouping them into the major scale, you will not play the functions of the chords, and you will miss the changes and movement of the piece. It will come out sounding stagnant most of the time.
That was a typo I guess when I said the IV chord.
Your post here does shed some light but I guess I dont even know what a C Maj Line is... I gues over the Dm I always just thought about it as C major (assuming were talking about the harmonized scale when making up the chords) but emphasizing the Dm7 scale tones.
Yes, I do learn something everyday.
vhollund
12-15-2009, 05:17 PM
Just sharping the 11. :dunno
Try DbMaj and BMaj.
Thats the spirit :D
KRosser
12-16-2009, 07:40 AM
WOW...
I just read almost every post up until page 24. I can't believe this thread was not locked. Viscous!
In retrospect, the viciousness of it is really pretty silly, and I deeply regret my part in it.
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