One-piece flame maple necks and stability

[hansoloist]

I've heard a lot of different things about one piece flame maple necks with regards to stability--everything from "it's a crapshoot" to "it's not an issue" to "all of them are unstable." I was hoping some of the builders--or owners of guitars with this style neck--on here could chime in on the subject. Thanks.

peace
-jeff

[TED STEVENSON]

It's crucial to observe the wood at every stage of construction to see if and how it has moved. This applies to every type of wood used in neck construction, not just figured woods. With figured wood, I tend to let it sit between the various steps longer. Many stable necks have been built with flamed maple. Hope this helps.

Ted

[Kingbeegtrs]

I've never experienced any problems with it.

In all honesty, I think that a neck's stability has a lot to do with how the owner treats the guitar. I've seen guys leave their guitars in the trunk of the car, in the garage, in a really hot or cold environment, extreme humidity, etc...not a good thing for a piece of wood - especially a guitar. I think that if you take care of your guitar it will provide you with years and years of service regardless of it being one-piece flame or not.

[7String Thing]

although figured woods look really nice, i would rather not take the chance. I like a nice sturdy 1pc maple neck. I like the feel of quartersawn more because it feels stiffer to me. There is no tonal advantage in my opinion, so its just aesthetic. I also like to beat the shit out of a guitar because its a tool.

I think if you let the necks sit for a while to make sure they wont move, it should be just fine, and ive played alot of flamed necks that felt great.

Maybe vulcanizing the flamed maple would make it stronger and more stable.

[scottish]

Most of the stuff ive heard points to figured maple being more stable in 2piece set ups.

[DownByLaw]

Only experience I've had with this is with a Zion strat, with a heavily figured maple neck, maple cap. Twisted beyond repair.

Patrick

[sadowsky]

Wood is going to do what it wants to do, regardless of how well you take care of it. I won't say you can't get a good neck made from figured maple. But during my entire 37 year career in guitars, I will say the worst necks I have ever seen were figured maple.

Roger

[TED STEVENSON]

Wood is going to do what it wants to do, regardless of how well you take care of it. I won't say you can't get a good neck made from figured maple. But during my entire 37 year career in guitars, I will say the worst necks I have ever seen were figured maple.

Roger

Absolutely true, wood will do what it wants to do. We mostly build with quartersawn maple but have done some figured maple necks. Any piece which moves significantly during the build is discarded. I've never had any twist beyond repair but most (figured necks) do require more seasonal adjustments.

[Isaac W.]

I've only been building guitars for about 3 years, but as a lifelong craftsman, I can attest to the unpredictability of maple. More than one heartache/cuss fest can be attributed to maple and it's antics. That said, it is without a doubt the most beautiful wood I've ever seen and I couldn't imagine not carving necks from the heavily flamed stuff. So, you read the grain, something that dosn't happen in a factory. Use a good truss rod and, in my case, an extra stiff 3-ply fingerboard. And bolt the baby on, cause ain't nothing ring like a maple neck.

[AnthonyL]

What if it's quarter-sawn? Does that improve your chances of having a good neck?

[TED STEVENSON]

What if it's quarter-sawn? Does that improve your chances of having a good neck?

It can. Again, observing the wood at every stage is key. I've had plain maple necks twist during the shaping process. Sometimes internal stress is too great and cannot be relieved sufficiently to make a good, stable neck. Probably best to stay away from extremely figured maple but it can work.

[Brian Porter]

I've got a guitar I built with John Bolin during an apprenticeship in 2001 and it has a quilted maple neck. It's maybe had one small truss rod adjustment in 8 years.

Although we did have a birdseye neck as the original and it warped big time during the build.

[Isaac W.]

Another thing that comes to mind is the method in which the neck is shaped. Modern drum sanders speed up the process but generate a great deal of heat. This heat can drastically alter the moisture content on the side of the neck being shaped. If the neck is not allowed to return to equilibrium prior to fingerboard and bindings going on, themselves adding moisture on the opposite side of the heating/drying, serious stress can be built into a neck. Carving a neck with only edged tools should not result in such issues. When in doubt on the grain, though you can always rip it and flip it, add a spline for even more stiffness and control.

[John Hurtt]

I've had several heavily figured necks and never had any stability issues. But in fairness, I baby most of my gear.

[fullerplast]

I've had several heavily figured necks and never had any stability issues. But in fairness, I baby most of my gear.

Likewise, although I don't baby mine much. Generations of orchestral instruments (violins, cellos, violas, etc) have used figured maple almost exclusively for necks over hundreds of years.

IMHO, straight grain and quartersawn will have a natural advantage and likelyhood of stability over figured grains, but if the wood is properly dried and cut, figured woods can also be stable over time. I've personally had no trouble with quite a few instruments using figured necks, but it also makes sense that the odds of potential trouble would be higher than straight grain.

[Isaac W.]

How can one resist this wood? Not possiblehttp://i707.photobucket.com/albums/ww71/wcswood/DSCN2195.jpg

[shallbe]

I have had tow Suhr T's with one piece maple necks. Both were great and sounded great. I still have one of the T's, and it has a quartersawn neck. Very, very, very stable---even in our crazy humid environment.

I gigged with it this wekend and almost never had to touch the tuning, although the stage temp would change drastically when the lights came on after breaks. I feel quartersawn necks make the acoustic sound punchier and louder as well.

[nik]

I've got a guitar I built with John Bolin during an apprenticeship in 2001 and it has a quilted maple neck. It's maybe had one small truss rod adjustment in 8 years.

I have a Steve Grimes archtop that has a quilted maple neck. I knew the back and sides were going to be quilted because I ordered it that way, but I was surprised and a little nervous when I opened the case and saw that the neck was made from one piece of quilted maple (it has an ebony fingerboard). At least its quarter sawn :-) I'm sure Steve had this piece of quilted maple sitting around for a long time and knew from experience if it could be used for a neck or not. That being said, I've had the guitar a few years now and the neck has been very stable.

It's an incredible guitar that sounded and played great right away, but is absolutely amazing now that the German spruce top has started opening up! I am a huge Steve Grimes fan!!!

[Husky]

Most of the necks that went south when I was at Fender were all figured.
Even qtr swn not properly seasoned and dried can cause problems.
The two most extreme flame / blister maple necks I have ever made at Fender went south, they were qtr swn, 1 piece and warped sideways. Beautiful looking, I still have them. It took 2 years for them to go south and they were cut for 6 months before shipping. It is a crapshoot. Of course I have no idea what abuse they went through since they went to Chicago. The environment is going to play a big part here and dry heat mixed with humidity on other days is not a good thing

[MartinPiana]

Wood is going to do what it wants to do, regardless of how well you take care of it. I won't say you can't get a good neck made from figured maple. But during my entire 37 year career in guitars, I will say the worst necks I have ever seen were figured maple.

Roger

Roger's not going out on a maple limb - Bob Benedetto has said mahogany is more stable than maple and is preferable for sound and balance as well, but says buyers influenced by tradition and visual aesthetics have compelled him to continue using flamed maple on on most of his archtops.... I've had mine a couple years and so far so good, knock wood.

[Isaac W.]

Coming at it from my point of view, I'd only go one piece with flat sawn. Sawn on the quarter the movement is going to be front to back on the neck, unless it's at exactly 90 degrees the movement would show up as twist, I think, especially with a really hard, dense fingerboard. The thicker the neck the more wood back there to twist. But the benefits of quartered stock are all there if you rip and flip.

With a flat sawn board, any runout can be oriented toward the fingerboard, put it at the nut end and you will actually strengthen a scarfed headstock as the grain comes up, offering long grain to the gluing surface. Much easier overall to read the grain in a flatsawn board, to know which way it would move, IMO Last resort is to set the board on a concrete floor, and see what happens. If you get a nice straight curve, you flip it over and it'll straighten right out.

[Dave Coke]

Humidity and temperature changes will always move any wood back and forth as conditions change. Permanent warpage is something different.

Warpage comes from internal stresses, and that's usually the result of wood that's been dried too quickly at the lumberyard. Wood shrinks when the "bound" water is dried out of it, so if the outer portions of the wood dry too quickly relative to the core (or one side faster than the other), then excessive internal stresses are created in that piece of wood. Sometimes this manifests as warpage when the wood is cut to a different shape, but other times it might not trigger until after the wood moisture content changes around a bit. My guess is that figured wood may tend to show internal stresses more than non-figured wood, but internal stresses from too-fast drying can be a problem with any type of wood.

Even properly dried wood can have some internal stress, so symetry and uniformity of the piece is always good juju.

The technology of drying woods has improved by leaps and bounds since the 70's, btw. Lumberyards now dry their wood according to prescribed schedules specific to the wood species. As long as the lumberyard plays it straight (the smart one's do) it shouldn't be so much of a problem these days, but if you're working with wood, you do still have to watch for it. There's always variation from board to board across the drying stack, and some lumberyards try to push their schedules to increase output...

The fact that some flame maple necks are stable is evidence that it is not a problem inherent to that type of wood. There's no reason for it to warp out of shape if it's symetrical, uniform, and has been dried properly in the first place. Plenty of good flame necks out there attest to that.

[Isaac W.]

Dave, you'd love my wood guy. He air drys everything under cover, and has a dehumidification kiln that is so sweet on the wood. Just him and another guy. Really into their wood.
I just brought some 3.5 year stickered sugar maple in the shop last fall, stuff I skidded out myself the winter before. It's never seen a kiln, and I had my sawyer mill most of it 2 inches thick. Couple more years it might be starting to behave.

[Groovey Records]

This neck went south in less then a year.

it was replaced by the builder in one week.

great customer service from Glendale but I'll never buy another git with this much flame

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd195/grooveyrecords/DSCN2526.jpg
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd195/grooveyrecords/DSCN2525.jpg
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd195/grooveyrecords/DSCN2531.jpg
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd195/grooveyrecords/DSCN2521.jpg
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd195/grooveyrecords/DSCN2520.jpg

Hans it was great hearing you play at the Amp show needs to be two days though waddya think?

[Dave Coke]

Dave, you'd love my wood guy. He air drys everything under cover, and has a dehumidification kiln that is so sweet on the wood. Just him and another guy. Really into their wood.
I just brought some 3.5 year stickered sugar maple in the shop last fall, stuff I skidded out myself the winter before. It's never seen a kiln, and I had my sawyer mill most of it 2 inches thick. Couple more years it might be starting to behave.

Nice!

I want a DH kiln...

[VaughnC]

Flame maple is flamey due to its wormy shaped irregularity in the woods grain. Add or subtract some atmospheric humidity and the moisture (or lack thereof) can push or pull a neck shaped piece of flame maple in God only knows what direction. You can think of the wormy shaped grain in flame maple as acting as a lot of little wedges being inserted perpendicular to length of the neck, pushing or pulling the wood lengthwise in response to atmospheric moisture in whatever direction most of the little wedges are aligned. A straight grained piece of maple will also expand/contract with atmospheric moisture, but straight grained wood has its little wedges aligned in parallel with the neck grain and thus the neck tends to expand/contract mostly in the sideways direction, which has less effect on the tuning stability of a guitar.

While I think it's possible for a piece of flame maple to expand/contract evenly with atmospheric moisture, the odds are against it...which is why most guitar manufacturers won't guarantee the stability of flamey/figured necks.

[Isaac W.]

Yeah, when you split flame maple it looks like ribbon candy. Get a lot of birds eye in the firewood around here, too. When you split it one half has a little pucker the other a little divit. Planing either variant flat results in short grain runout at the "flame" or "eye."
That maple neck has no fingerboard, correct? I don't think I'd do one like that in a single piece. That is asking a lot from a piece of maple. Take me a lot longer than a week to cough up a new neck, too, though.

[hansoloist]

Hans it was great hearing you play at the Amp show needs to be two days though waddya think?

Clearly you have me confused with someone else--if it was me you were hearing you'd have promptly left the room.;)

Great meeting you, and yes I completely agree it needs to be two days.

After reading through this thread, I decided to go with a quartersawn back and a flamed board. Thanks to everyone for sharing their insights and experiences.

peace
-jeff

[J.T. Guitar]

Just had a Wildwood 10 made for me... The order got messed up along the way (BTW- it could have been my fault.), but they sent a qrt sawn straight Maple neck instead of AA flamed. I was iffy about keeping it and was thinking about sending it back for a retro-fit. It should be here in the next few days and I think it's going to be staying. Too many horror stories about flamed neck stability... especially in the Mile High City.

[cmatthes]

I have four extremely curly necks. None have had a single problem. I also had a '61 Esquire that was insanely flamed. One of the best Fender-style necks I've ever played, and never had a problem at all after well over 40 years.

Think it depends on the piece of wood, the way it was cut and dried, etc.

[J.T. Guitar]

I have four extremely curly necks. None have had a single problem. I also had a '61 Esquire that was insanely flamed. One of the best Fender-style necks I've ever played, and never had a problem at all after well over 40 years.

Think it depends on the piece of wood, the way it was cut and dried, etc.

You also have the luxury of living in Maryland, where the humidity varies about 10% from a 50% mean. In Colorado, it can swing from less than 8% to 60% within a day. Quite a different environment. FWIW- The only guitars I've had stay spot on perfect in Colorado have been Tom Anderson's.

[fullerplast]

You also have the luxury of living in Maryland, where the humidity varies about 10% from a 50% mean.

:jo :roll

[J.T. Guitar]

:jo Maybe I wasn't accurate enough... My mistake; 50 to 58 %... Facts... don't let them stand in your way. :NUTS

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh10/JT_Guitar/31c307cf-9f6f-43d7-858f-006a69cd660.gif

[fullerplast]

:jo Maybe I wasn't accurate enough... My mistake; 50 to 58 %... Facts... don't let them stand in your way.

:facepalm Dude....I've lived here for over 30 years. You want facts? It's 94% humidity right now. A few months back I was running humidifiers full bore to barely get to 35%. It would be under 10% otherwise.

Don't believe me? Call Paul Smith:

The PRS Guitars factory Maryland—probably not the first place you’d think of as corporate headquarters for a major player in the music business. Smith wouldn’t argue.
“This is the worst state in the union to make guitars,” he says. Shifting humidity levels can wreak havoc on raw wood. “It’s zero percent in winter and 100 percent in summer, and it rains and it snows, and then it’s wet and then dry. There’s something we have to do to the air every minute just about.”

PRS deals with figured maple all the time, on very expensive set neck private stock instruments. It's all about how the wood is dried, cut, and finished. Look at all the classical orchestral instruments that have used figured maple almost exclusively on necks for centuries.

[Planet_TeleX]

What happened to the neck?

I have Glendale #45, it has the flamiest neck I've ever seen, but concerned about stability in the long term.


This neck went south in less then a year.

it was replaced by the builder in one week.

great customer service from Glendale but I'll never buy another git with this much flame

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd195/grooveyrecords/DSCN2526.jpg
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd195/grooveyrecords/DSCN2525.jpg
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd195/grooveyrecords/DSCN2531.jpg
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd195/grooveyrecords/DSCN2521.jpg
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd195/grooveyrecords/DSCN2520.jpg

Hans it was great hearing you play at the Amp show needs to be two days though waddya think?

[Groovey Records]

What happened to the neck?

I have Glendale #45, it has the flamiest neck I've ever seen, but concerned about stability in the long term.

My Glendale , I call her Bluebell and love her madly, is #44.

She went South purrtee qwick first a sitar sound then a lttle roll. The setup was intonated perfect on arrival but within 4 months she had serious problems and I sought professional help.

Long story short Mandolin bro pronounced the neck dead March less then a year after she was mine. Purrtee little thing if you think baseball bat with a progressive V are purrtee!


I do

Now Dale hooked me up with a new neck faster then you could say Jiminy Cricket and by Jiminy its Purrtee too

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd195/grooveyrecords/DSCN2529.jpg

[Planet_TeleX]

Thanks, boy she's a beauty!

My Glendale , I call her Bluebell and love her madly, is #44.

She went South purrtee qwick first a sitar sound then a lttle roll. The setup was intonated perfect on arrival but within 4 months she had serious problems and I sought professional help.

Long story short Mandolin bro pronounced the neck dead March less then a year after she was mine. Purrtee little thing if you think baseball bat with a progressive V are purrtee!


I do

Now Dale hooked me up with a new neck faster then you could say Jiminy Cricket and by Jiminy its Purrtee too

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd195/grooveyrecords/DSCN2529.jpg

[Doug]

My new Kirn Tele will have a flamey one-piece neck. I asked Ron about this very thing, and he said he's never had any problems in over 20 years. USACG, who cut the neck, say they have had less than 15 necks out of over 5,000 returned. Ron also pointed out all the pre-war instruments that were made with flame maple necks that are still going strong. I'm going with the odds on this one. :)

[Dave Klausner]

Not my instrument, but check out this neck (Fender Custom Shop Yuri Shiskov Masterbuilt):

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u245/dklausner/strat_09_4.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u245/dklausner/strat_09_2.jpg

[J.T. Guitar]

:facepalm Dude....I've lived here for over 30 years. You want facts? It's 94% humidity right now. A few months back I was running humidifiers full bore to barely get to 35%. It would be under 10% otherwise.

Dude... Is Paul Smith a senior climatologist for the National Weather Service? That's where the chart came from. I speak to several builders weekly who actually choose to build in that area for the even humidity. But like I said, don't concern yourself with facts.

:bong

If you are not subjecting your guitars to forced air heat in winter and swamp coolers in the summer, you live in a very stable climate. Very stable when compared to Colorado. You don't have to deal with several months of 5% humidity.

[fullerplast]

Dude... Is Paul Smith a senior climatologist for the National Weather Service? That's where the chart came from. I speak to several builders weekly who actually choose to build in that area for the even humidity. But like I said, don't concern yourself with facts.

:bong

:facepalm So not only do you doubt the ability of one of the largest builders in the country to know about the humidity he works in every day, but you don't think that I know the humidity I've lived in for 30 years?

Just look at the humidity readings in your "data"!!

58% in Dec and Jan, while it's 52% in July!!???:messedup

Your humidity data sucks, pure and simple.

[hansoloist]

My new Kirn Tele will have a flamey one-piece neck. I asked Ron about this very thing, and he said he's never had any problems in over 20 years. USACG, who cut the neck, say they have had less than 15 necks out of over 5,000 returned. Ron also pointed out all the pre-war instruments that were made with flame maple necks that are still going strong. I'm going with the odds on this one. :)

Interesting. Ron at USACG steered me away from a one-piece flamed maple neck because of the risk of warping--said it was much safer to go with a quartersawn back and flamed board...which is what I did.

peace
-jeff

[Husky]

What if it's quarter-sawn? Does that improve your chances of having a good neck?

I have built very well aged extreme figured qtr sawn necks that still moved, sideways :facepalm
My experience follows Sadowskys both independent and at Fender. The only necks I have ever had to replace in all my years were figured, and they can be fine for 5 years, then one day the shit hits the fan. Of course I usually don't know the environment they were exposed to. Another point though, the necks that don't seem to vibrate quite right and soak up notes they shouldn't tend to be figured as well IME

The only material I have seen never move so far is Vulcanized maple. I can pour water on one side of the blank.... nothing... still straight

[fearhk213]

Not trying to derail the thread here, but are three piece flame maple necks prone to the same problems?

[Husky]

Not trying to derail the thread here, but are three piece flame maple necks prone to the same problems?

Well you could say it still has the ability to move and possibly split
The problem with figured is it can be a crapshoot more than a piece of wood that has nice and straight grain. There is also a tone difference to me.

[Doug]

Interesting. Ron at USACG steered me away from a one-piece flamed maple neck because of the risk of warping--said it was much safer to go with a quartersawn back and flamed board...which is what I did.

peace
-jeff

I was referring to Ron Kirn, not Ron at USACG. I believe Ron's main contact at USACG is Tommy.

[fullerplast]

....and then there are the builders that use flame maple exclusively for their standard builds with rave tone reviews (http://www.detempleguitars.com/temp/guit_reviews.php) and no reported stability issues that I've seen.:stir

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_xWjoeLNcmQo/SdzZGhcl7fI/AAAAAAAACyE/oXZekTF6-8U/s400/detemple+strat.jpg

[hansoloist]

I was referring to Ron Kirn, not Ron at USACG. I believe Ron's main contact at USACG is Tommy.

Ah, sorry for the confusion. I actually spoke with Tommy as well at a different time and his sentiments echoed Ron's (at USACG). He did, however, say that a one piece flamed neck could very well turn out to be the best neck in the world, and super stable. It was the bit about it possibly warping in a week, a month, or 6 months that worried me. Even if the odds are 1 in 1000, with the way my luck's been of late, I ain't takin' that chance, haha!

peace
-jeff

[hansoloist]

....and then there are the builders that use flame maple exclusively for their standard builds with rave tone reviews (http://www.detempleguitars.com/temp/guit_reviews.php) and no reported stability issues that I've seen.:stir

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_xWjoeLNcmQo/SdzZGhcl7fI/AAAAAAAACyE/oXZekTF6-8U/s400/detemple+strat.jpg

I wasn't aware anyone ever lived long enough past their order date to actually receive their DeTemple.:D

The necks on his guitars are beautiful.

peace
-jeff

[fullerplast]

I wasn't aware anyone ever lived long enough past their order date to actually receive their DeTemple.:D

The necks on his guitars are beautiful.

peace
-jeff

:rimshot :D

[Boris Bubbanov]

Interesting. Ron at USACG steered me away from a one-piece flamed maple neck because of the risk of warping--said it was much safer to go with a quartersawn back and flamed board...which is what I did.

peace
-jeff


You're probably referring to Rob.

Yes, both Rob and Tommy are great to talk to; you're bound to learn a whole lot from talking to both men. Rob is a fan of one piece rosewood, I recall.

++

This is an awful, sticky climate down here. But it is kind to neck wood, I feel. If I were in Wyoming or Alberta, I would take extraordinary care what woods I chose. When it comes to neck stability, until the levees fail again I'm as lucky as you could be.

[Husky]

....and then there are the builders that use flame maple exclusively for their standard builds with rave tone reviews (http://www.detempleguitars.com/temp/guit_reviews.php) and no reported stability issues that I've seen.:stir

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_xWjoeLNcmQo/SdzZGhcl7fI/AAAAAAAACyE/oXZekTF6-8U/s400/detemple+strat.jpg

How many?
Lets put things in perspective. I make more guitars in a month than Mike does in 3 years.
I never said every single one isnt going to work but the only necks I have seen problems with that I have used are figured
I'm also talking a much more extreme figure than that.

[John Hurtt]

How many?
Lets put things in perspective. I make more guitars in a month than Mike does in 3 years.
I never said every single one isnt going to work but the only necks I have seen problems with that I have used are figured
I'm also talking a much more extreme figure than that.


That's pretty nice flame...could you give an example of more extreme flame?

[Terry McInturff]

With the greatest possible respect for any builder who uses figured Rock Maple for necks,

And further, while I do know...for a fact...that there are many stable flamed rock maple necks out there giving good service, some for several decades now..........

I can say that, based upon my experience, a figured Rock Maple (Acer saccharum) guitar neck can, in general, be expected to be less stable than a plain grained example of the same species.

Now, as noted above, there are exceptions.......and now read on.....

A notable portion of my 32 year career was devoted to repair/restoration; as any repair luthier knows, correcting for neck curvature flaws is one of the key jobs that pays the monthly bills. I can tell you for certain that, based upon my personal experience from those days to this very day, flamed Rock Maple is not...in general.... as stable as it's plain-grained counterpart.

No one can really account for why neighboring trees in a forest...all subjected to the same environmental stresses...will produce figured wood OR plain grained wood. One tree will have incredible figure whilst almost all of it's neighbors will not. A mystery! I suppose genetics has something to do with it (not being an expert in that field of study.....)

Back in 1998 I had the delightful opportunity to play the tour guitars of an individual who is probably the most famous electric guitarist in the world. The main guitar for the set was a famous bolt-on, as were it's two backups. These instruments were made in the "custom shop" division of the famous manufacturer. All three sported incredibly flamed Rock Maple necks.

As soon as I saw the necks, I blurted out to his tech "these have been a problem, I'll bet". The tech was surprised. "How did you know? We are 9 weeks into the tour, and Ive already been thru 7 necks between these three. They have been moving all over the place".

All wooden boards...of any species... have some degree of built-in stress. A proper neck building routine (IMO) involves letting these stresses relax, the wood moves, only to be straightened out again. And again. All the while working the wood down to a tight dimensional spec. By the time the neck is ready to fret, the wood has relieved it's stress, and so...the builder is now the master of the wood instead of the wood being the boss. Right there is a hint that may be worth pondering, if you are getting going as a builder.

Often enough...it seems that the very peculiar built-in stresses of figured Rock Maple are usually...not always... reluctant to "settle down" for good. Combined with Rock Maple's tendency to change dimensionally in reaction to a changing environment (as compared to pattern-grade Hondouras Mahogany for example), this can create a pain-in-the-hind as regards maintaining a stable guitar setup, not to mention stable tuning.

As a builder, I could never be certain that I will remain "The Boss" of that wood after it leaves my shop, and thus enters the working environment. It may be a "good boy" overall, but I do not like any movement with any regularity. Seasonal changes will occur sometimes but I'd want to find another line of work if all of my necks needed to be adjusted every Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter.

It is challenging to tour figured Rock Maple necks with any success.

Because I try to build tourable guitars....that do not...as a matter of course (it happens I'd guess) need a truss rod adjustment for every country, let alone city...I do not offer this wood.

But even in the home environment here in the USA....with varying humidity levels (unless you are lucky enough to live in an area with few humidity swings yearly)....the flamed Acer saccharum is usually...not always... going to move. Maintaining a consistent setup becomes a chore.

Usually this means "putting up" with a changing setup....and putting off another visit to the tech...it's just another chore to deal with. Eventually, it gets easier to watch TV while the playing hours dwindle.

Cantankerous flamed necks will, most often, eventually "find peace". The various internal stresses will be relieved, and the neck will "settle into a shape".

The big drag about that...as I see it...is that we cannot predict what that shape will be.

And so, based upon my career experience....if a Rock Maple neck is part of the chassis' tonal recipe....the safe chioce is for unfigured wood.

[Rob Sharer]

Well, lads, if Suhr and McInturff say they're a bad choice, then they're a bad choice. It so happens that their experience largely reflects my own. Game, set, match.

Rob

[Vince]

If someone's already pointed this out above, I missed it, but don't forget that what you're actually seeing when you look at a nicely flamed piece of maple are the changes and variations in the density and orientation of the fibers of the wood. It's like being able to take a direct look at Charlie Manson's psyche.

Finding the best, most consistent and reliable piece of neck wood in clear, straight stock is a challenge enough. Why would you ever select a piece when the problems are right before your eyes?

[rcarreiro]

If someone's already pointed this out above, I missed it, but don't forget that what you're actually seeing when you look at a nicely flamed piece of maple are the changes and variations in the density and orientation of the fibers of the wood. It's like being able to take a direct look at Charlie Manson's psyche.

Finding the best, most consistent and reliable piece of neck wood in clear, straight stock is a challenge enough. Why would you ever select a piece when the problems are right before your eyes?

Because people pay more for it. People equate cool looks into quality and thus into $ for the builder.

[fullerplast]

Well, lads, if Suhr and McInturff say they're a bad choice, then they're a bad choice. It so happens that their experience largely reflects my own. Game, set, match.

Rob

;)Well, if there weren't a few other luthiers on the planet that have been using figured maple for centuries, I might agree with you.....

But virtually all the finest violin, cello, etc luthiers have been using it practically exclusively for generations, for thin body pieces and necks. Many are well over 100 years old:

http://www.sprucetreemusic.com/vln031007a.jpg

But I do fully understand the concept of odds and probability, so I'm fine with somebody stating that straight grained maple has a higher probability of stability than figured maple. No problem.

But I also feel that part of the beauty of a wooden instrument comes from the wood itself and the uniqueness of grain and figure. Otherwise, we'd paint them all sea foam green and be done with it.:D

So much like living on the ocean, you assume some risk to get the beauty of a sunset every night. If a good looking instrument inspires you to pick it up more often, maybe it's worth the risk....:YinYang

[Terry McInturff]

If someone's already pointed this out above, I missed it, but don't forget that what you're actually seeing when you look at a nicely flamed piece of maple are the changes and variations in the density and orientation of the fibers of the wood. It's like being able to take a direct look at Charlie Manson's psyche.

Finding the best, most consistent and reliable piece of neck wood in clear, straight stock is a challenge enough. Why would you ever select a piece when the problems are right before your eyes?

I think that Vince has summed up what took me many more words to say.

But...this topic does beg the question that has been touched upon in a number of threads....the question being

"Tone and playability being equal, and given the choice, would you choose a GORGEOUS guitar that might be a somewhat problematic TOOL over a plainer looking guitar that was, surely and certainly, far more reliable"?

And even further...before I come across to you all as being some type of "mil-spec builder"...and please remember that I coined the phrase....it is entirely possible to design and to build..in quantity...guitars that "breathe and are flexable" in the right places, all the while maintaining a design philosophy that results in a line of guitars that can withstand a Who tour CA 1969.......

"Tight but Loose" is a design goal (for me, and one which I reccomend looking at), and that can be reached, if that is part of your primary thinking as a guitar designer/builder. As only one example, one can replicate the outstanding tones of the great vintage Gretsch designs without having to carry forward the "craftsmanship"

If this is your path as a builder, you will eventually lose interest in using materials which generally exhibit characteristics that points to unpredictable "naughty behavior after it leaves the shop". Learning this on your own is a trying process...

[Lewkk]

I find this thread interesting and concerning because my most recent guitar has some subtle flaming in it - not only that, but it's a one piece neck and has carbon running through the neck instead of a truss rod.

According to the company there have been no returned necks in over 20 years. I'll assume that's down to wood selection and that the wood is left to dry for several years before it's used.

I'm not disagreeing with Suhr and Terry. I'm just curious as 20 years is a long lucky streak! :D

[Rocket Brother]

I wasn't aware anyone ever lived long enough past their order date to actually receive their DeTemple.:D

The necks on his guitars are beautiful.

peace
-jeff

I´m afraid I might catch a death before I get my '56 and '52.........
Going on three years + now

[hansoloist]

You're probably referring to Rob.

Yes, both Rob and Tommy are great to talk to; you're bound to learn a whole lot from talking to both men. Rob is a fan of one piece rosewood, I recall.

++

This is an awful, sticky climate down here. But it is kind to neck wood, I feel. If I were in Wyoming or Alberta, I would take extraordinary care what woods I chose. When it comes to neck stability, until the levees fail again I'm as lucky as you could be.

Yes, Rob, that's the guy. Again, sorry for any confusion. He and Tommy are great people!

peace
-jeff

[Rob Sharer]

;)Well, if there weren't a few other luthiers on the planet that have been using figured maple for centuries, I might agree with you.....

But virtually all the finest violin, cello, etc luthiers have been using it practically exclusively for generations, for thin body pieces and necks. Many are well over 100 years old:

http://www.sprucetreemusic.com/vln031007a.jpg

But I do fully understand the concept of odds and probability, so I'm fine with somebody stating that straight grained maple has a higher probability of stability than figured maple. No problem.

But I also feel that part of the beauty of a wooden instrument comes from the wood itself and the uniqueness of grain and figure. Otherwise, we'd paint them all sea foam green and be done with it.:D

So much like living on the ocean, you assume some risk to get the beauty of a sunset every night. If a good looking instrument inspires you to pick it up more often, maybe it's worth the risk....:YinYang

Well, that's a facile comparison, but not entirely jejune to this discussion. Violin family necks are much shorter, and are also bolstered by that massive piece of ebony. Meanwhile, if you think even for a second that a really curly violin neck won't go terminally cattywampus in a heartbeat, think again. Happens all the time. That goes double for the back and sides, which can and do warp in every way imaginable, including sides that look like a fresh-boiled piece of lasagna noodle, and backs that collapse where there's not even any string pressure to offer an excuse.

Meanwhile, the single best-sounding violin I ever heard was made from the single plainest piece of maple I've ever seen. Not scientific, perhaps, but interesting nonetheless. Cheers,

Rob

[Vibrolucky]

A lot of the early Fender Strats and Teles had mild figuring on the maple necks - I would say those are very stable after 50+ years.

It varies from piece to piece.

[Terry McInturff]

;)Well, if there weren't a few other luthiers on the planet that have been using figured maple for centuries, I might agree with you.....

But virtually all the finest violin, cello, etc luthiers have been using it practically exclusively for generations, for thin body pieces and necks. Many are well over 100 years old:

http://www.sprucetreemusic.com/vln031007a.jpg

But I do fully understand the concept of odds and probability, so I'm fine with somebody stating that straight grained maple has a higher probability of stability than figured maple. No problem.

But I also feel that part of the beauty of a wooden instrument comes from the wood itself and the uniqueness of grain and figure. Otherwise, we'd paint them all sea foam green and be done with it.:D

So much like living on the ocean, you assume some risk to get the beauty of a sunset every night. If a good looking instrument inspires you to pick it up more often, maybe it's worth the risk....:YinYang

My friend, with the greatest possible respect...and I mean that!.....

If you hold up the use of figured maple ( which, historically is of a specie/species that is not what we are taliking about) as used by orchestral string makers as an example, I have to ask this question:

"Have you ever had a deep conversation with a world-class orchestral string restoration expert as regards his/her opinion of the relative stability of figured maple vs straight-grained maple as used on orchestral strings"?

If you have, you will surely find that

1) The desirability of figured woods (lookswise) was established centuries before the Les Paul, etc. People have not changed fundamentally since...there is a strong tradition of "fancy wood equals sales" and this dates back centuries.

2) The entire orchestral string family school of design (sadly stuck in the designs of hundreds of years ago...sound familiar?) was built upon a goal of achieving the best tone whilst acknowledging the inevitable repairwork to come.

Even tho a violin neck is so much shorter than a modern guitar neck is....in the orchestral string restoration world...accomodating for the wood movement of that neck...the ebony fingerboard/flamed maple neck....is what can pay the rent. The planing of fingerboards in order to accomodate for that maple moving...even on a short and stiff neck under rather low tension....is, well, commonplace to say the least.

Accomodating for neck wood movement on orchestral strings is commonplace....and if you go back and look at the history of the orchestral string family you will note that repairwork due to neck movement was an accepted fact and the ease of effecting such repairs was designed into the instrument.

Nothing much has changed, as regards "eyecandy=sales" in the past 300 years. Early orchestral string makers recognised the "sales power" of great looking wood hundreds of years ago. It may be of note that...altho most of the totally "built for looks" violins fell apart and were discarded generations ago...enough of them remain somewhat intact, and viewable in museums.

I could go on for ages...to everyone's boredom....but...


I would think twice about offering up the traditional use of figured European Maple....or of any figured maple...as used by orchestral string makers as being a testament as regards the stability of figured maple, as used in a guitar neck...not to mention the far shorter violin neck and the rest of the orchestral string family necks.

Having said all of that, I must say that fullerplast has raised excellent points, all of which could be the root of a fascinating thread! Good work as usual, my friend!

[aleclee]

Just look at the humidity readings in your "data"!!

58% in Dec and Jan, while it's 52% in July!!???:messedup

Your humidity data sucks, pure and simple.The issue is probably one of relative humidity. Given the seasonal variance in temperature, you're probably both right (and wrong).

[J.T. Guitar]

The issue is probably one of relative humidity. Given the seasonal variance in temperature, you're probably both right (and wrong).

No problem, FP is a very opinionated gent. He likes facts when they support his position, and disregards them when they don't.

Back to the thread... Man, we have some serious heavy-weights chiming in. Very interesting... Meanwhile, the WW-10 is IN! Had to work tonight... but tomorrow... :RoCkIn

[fullerplast]

The issue is probably one of relative humidity. Given the seasonal variance in temperature, you're probably both right (and wrong).

:facepalm Nice try.....we're both talking relative humidity and the chart is labeled as such (%).

No, the data is simply flat out wrong. Does anybody really think it's more humid in Baltimore in January than in July?.....or that it stays in an 8% range year-round? :bong

It's also pretty ballsy to suggest Paul Reed Smith doesn't know what he's talking about in his own back yard. But I'll be sure to get in touch with JT if I want to know if it's raining where I live too.:rotflmao

[fullerplast]

Having said all of that, I must say that fullerplast has raised excellent points, all of which could be the root of a fascinating thread! Good work as usual, my friend!


Thank you Terry, and thanks for your well-considered points.

I do think the thread would be a bit more balanced if some of the luthiers that actively use figured maple were to take part. As it stands, I don't disagree with most of the points made regarding the ultimate stability of figured wood relative to straight grain. If I were a builder who wanted to keep the likelihood of warranty returns down to an absolute minimum, I'd probably avoid it too. There is definately a higher probability of issues.

Like many things, it's simply a risk/reward decision. And yes, the reward is purely a visual one.:love: Pretty women often have a similar risk attached...:D

[aleclee]

No, the data is simply flat out wrong. Does anybody really think it's more humid in Baltimore in January than in July?.....or that it stays in an 8% range year-round? :bongYes, it is more humid, assuming one knows what relative humidity means, which you clearly don't (or are simply ignoring to continue this argument :nono).

Given the much colder temps in the winter, the air can't hold as much moisture. As a result, the relative humidity can be higher even though the absolute moisture content (measured by weight) is lower. In the cozy confines of one's house, the air is heated but generally without adding moisture. The warmer air has more capacity to hold moisture, lowering the relative humidity even thought the absolute humidity has remained constant or even marginally increased.

Back to my original point, the use of relative humidity figures, combined with the seasonal temperature swings, would make you both right and wrong.

[Vince]

I do think the thread would be a bit more balanced if some of the luthiers that actively use figured maple were to take part.

Seems like we have a severe scarcity of luthiers using figured for necks around here.

Wonder why?

[fullerplast]

Yes, it is more humid, assuming one knows what relative humidity means, which you clearly don't (or are simply ignoring to continue this argument :nono).

:joI can't believe this is still going on....do you really choose to believe that data is accurate????

The whole point of relative humidity readings is that it takes the ambient temperature into account! Relative humidity is the amount of moisture in the air compared to what the air can "hold"at that temperature.

If you go to the local weather station, or if you look at your digital hydrometer you'll get the relative humidity reading. That's why you don't need to know the temperature and dewpoint. When I measure 5% in January and 95% in July, I am measuring relative humidity....which is also what is presented in the chart of unknown origin.

So when I go to NOAA and look up the Baltimore data for yesterday, for example, and I get this:

RELATIVE HUMIDITY (PERCENT)
HIGHEST 100 400 AM
LOWEST 69 100 PM
AVERAGE 85

....I am getting the relative humidity readings, which is what is also listed in the "graph of unknown origin and unknown accuracy". So when I say that the accuracy of average RH readings of 50% RH in July and 58% RH in Jan is very suspect, that is exactly what I mean. That one day range is three times the annual variation in the graph!

Some of you guys really do need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows....:D

[fullerplast]

Seems like we have a severe scarcity of luthiers using figured for necks around here.

Wonder why?

You mean the luthiers that choose not to post on TGP? Guys like Paul Smith, Bob Taylor, and Michael DeTemple, for example?

...or do you mean luthiers that do post on TGP but choose not to participate in this debate, like Ron Thorn or Ron Kirn for example?
http://www.thornguitars.com/images/gallerypics/008-back.jpghttp://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n102/Ronkirn/DSC_0019-33.jpg


One could put forth the argument that they are the wiser ones.....:D

[Dave Coke]

All wooden boards...of any species... have some degree of built-in stress. A proper neck building routine (IMO) involves letting these stresses relax, the wood moves, only to be straightened out again. And again. All the while working the wood down to a tight dimensional spec. By the time the neck is ready to fret, the wood has relieved it's stress...

Hi Terry. I agree with the routine, but I'd like to respectfully disagree with the last point. Letting the wood sit between stages alows it to move to a new point of equilibrium for it's new shape at that particular moisture content, but this does not mean that all internal stresses are necessarily relieved.

Leaving for long periods of time, or drying to extremely low moisture content does not ensure stress-free wood.

[J.T. Guitar]

:facepalm Nice try.....we're both talking relative humidity and the chart is labeled as such (%).

No, the data is simply flat out wrong. Does anybody really think it's more humid in Baltimore in January than in July?.....or that it stays in an 8% range year-round? :bong

It's also pretty ballsy to suggest Paul Reed Smith doesn't know what he's talking about in his own back yard. But I'll be sure to get in touch with JT if I want to know if it's raining where I live too.:rotflmao

I never said PRS didn't know what he was talking about. FWIW- The PRS guitars I've played are so covered in finish, I doubt they lose much moisture at all. You are too good at reading what you want into other's comments. I wish you'd just drop it... we all know you're right, as always. The National Weather Service puts out bad data, and you know more than they do. Fine... Let it go.

Back to necks and guitars... Picked up my WW-10 today! What a fine piece of work... and those John Cruz P/U's? Out of control! A nice vintage Strat tone, but loud and in your face. All Strat, and so much character.

[Rob Sharer]

Another simply-stated point: the luthiers who do choose to use figured maple for necks are doing so because many players a) are drawn in by the looks, and b) don't know/don't care about the stability thing, and aren't making a rational choice. Marketing, pure and simple, or appearance trumping function.

Rob

[fullerplast]

I never said PRS didn't know what he was talking about. FWIW- The PRS guitars I've played are so covered in finish, I doubt they lose much moisture at all.

http://www.motifake.com/demotivational-poster/0903/double-facepalm-demotivational-poster-1238022040.jpg

You suggested Paul Reed Smith's humidity observations were not valid because he was not a meteorologist. You ignore NOAA's posted daily readings of actual measured max, min, and average relative humidity. You ignore my direct readings over 30 years.

Now you suggest that the finish on a PRS somehow makes the neck wood transfer moisture differently than other guitars.....:rolleyes:


UFB

Edit for completeness:

You also have the luxury of living in Maryland, where the humidity varies about 10% from a 50% mean. In Colorado, it can swing from less than 8% to 60% within a day. Quite a different environment.

So here is your Colorado data from the same source you used for Maryland....looks like a nice even 45%RH +/- 6%. Should be a nice stable environment for guitars, huh? Still agree with your data source???:rotflmao:rotflmao

http://www.worldtravelguide.net/a/main/8f350f44-1a25-476a-9457-1c431cc20c8b/563a7dd0-d7f1-4216-8070-81dd4a9981d1/d7ce88cc-38bb-4f0d-8c52-b626383ce6df.gif

[fullerplast]

Another simply-stated point: the luthiers who do choose to use figured maple for necks are doing so because many players a) are drawn in by the looks, and b) don't know/don't care about the stability thing, and aren't making a rational choice. Marketing, pure and simple, or appearance trumping function.

Rob

Sure it's about cosmetics....not function, but trading off cosmetics for ultimate safety and stability.

Face it, that tradeoff exists everywhere. It's a judgement call. Not unlike using 6V6 tubes in an amp with 450V plate voltage, or using a 15W speaker in a 20W amp, or driving a motorcycle, or dating the prettiest girl in the room, or living on the waterfront instead of back in the suburbs....it's a tradeoff.

Reducing all risk to an absolute minimum is not everyone's top priority, that's the bottom line. Sometimes you play the odds and take your chances.....:YinYang

[Rob Sharer]

Reducing all risk to an absolute minimum is not everyone's top priority, that's the bottom line. Sometimes you play the odds and take your chances.....:YinYang

Granted, but the problem comes when the maker is held accountable by the customer for the unfortunate consequences of that particular choice, which may in fact have been unavoidable. It's no wonder that many makers look at curly necks with a jaundiced eye.

Rob

[Tag]

My Chapin has a HEAVILY flamed 1 piece neck. I need to adjust the truss rod every 3-4 months. (Bill told me this MAY be the case, but I wanted it) Thats a lot compared to my other guitars that can go years with no adjustment needed. John Buscarino (Who IMO, is one of the very best builders ever) has advised me to skip the heavy flame (which he has) and to use rock maple, which is not as heavily figured I believe, because of its stability. One of his suggestions was if you want the heavy flame, go with 3 piece, with the middle section being rock which will have less figure.

[J.T. Guitar]

http://www.motifake.com/demotivational-poster/0903/double-facepalm-demotivational-poster-1238022040.jpg

You suggested Paul Reed Smith's humidity observations were not valid because he was not a meteorologist. You ignore NOAA's posted daily readings of actual measured max, min, and average relative humidity. You ignore my direct readings over 30 years.

Now you suggest that the finish on a PRS somehow makes the neck wood transfer moisture differently than other guitars.....:rolleyes:


UFB

First, I don't appreciate your language or your insults. Knock it off or I'll report you to the mods.

Like I said, you don't believe the NWS that's fine with me. After thirty years maybe it's time to get a new hygrometer?

Again, I'll try and explain myself. Most PRS guitars I've played are set necks and are completely encased in a modern finish. A guitar made in this fashion is less likely to lose moisture than one with a thin nitro finish and a bolt on neck.

I know, I'm probably wrong about this too. ;)

[Tag]

First, I don't appreciate your language or your insults. Knock it off or I'll report you to the mods.

Like I said, you don't believe the NWS that's fine with me. After thirty years maybe it's time to get a new hygrometer?

Again, I'll try and explain myself. Most PRS guitars I've played are set necks and are completely encased in a modern finish. A guitar made in this fashion is less likely to lose moisture than one with a thin nitro finish and a bolt on neck.

I know, I'm probably wrong about this too. ;)


My PRS Artist IIIs have an ultra thin poly finsish, and my PRS P.S. artist III an ultra thin nitro finish. :boxer

[Lewkk]

My PRS Artist IIIs have an ultra thin poly finsish, and my PRS P.S. artist III an ultra thin nitro finish. :boxer

I doubt it, more likely a poly base coat and a 'nitro' top coat (like the dgts) rather than the usual urethane top? :)

prs finishes are imo certainly not thick though :)

[Tag]

I doubt it, more likely a poly base coat and a 'nitro' top coat (like the dgts) rather than the usual urethane top? :)

prs finishes are imo certainly not thick though :)



Nope. Spec'ed 100% ultra thin nitro. :bender

[J.T. Guitar]

prs finishes are imo certainly not thick though :)

I totally agree... notwithstanding, a set neck poly finished guitar is not going to lose moisure as much as a bolt on with thin skin nitro.

Here... let me pull out a chart... :roll

[Lewkk]

Nope. Spec'ed 100% ultra thin nitro. :bender
It may be spec'd that way but with respect, regardless of how prs word it, I still think it's very unlikely prs would make you a guitar without a poly basecoat. I would welcome being proved otherwise though and I'm certainly no prs expert! :)

:glen

[J.T. Guitar]

Maybe a special order only?

BTW- Here's my Wildwood 10... 100% thin skin nitro, Brazilian RW, John Cruz P/Us. JM inspired, but I don't dig the relics.

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh10/JT_Guitar/DSC00048.jpg

[Lewkk]

The gold screws are a nice touch :JAM

[Tag]

It may be spec'd that way but with respect, regardless of how prs word it, I still think it's very unlikely prs would make you a guitar without a poly basecoat. I would welcome being proved otherwise though and I'm certainly no prs expert! :)

:glen


You mean a basecoat like all vintage nitro guitars have? Unless that is a MUST...it is a private stock guitar, speced by me as an ultra thin Nitro finish. No poly. And by the way, the highly figured, solid braz neck has zero finish. :bender

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL438/648157/1045889/214212981.jpg

[J.T. Guitar]

The gold screws are a nice touch :JAM

Thanks... I'm digging it for sure.

Nice git Tag!

[Lewkk]

You mean a basecoat like all vintage nitro guitars have? Yea.

Unless that is a MUST...it is a private stock guitar, speced by me as an ultra thin Nitro finish. No poly. And by the way, the highly figured, solid braz neck has zero finish. :bender

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL438/648157/1045889/214212981.jpg

Yea, I would imagine it would be a must have on a prs (regardless of being a spec'd ps). It's really not a bigdeal or worth us going in to depth on - I just think the chances are that it has a poly base.

It's all good! :)

[Tag]

Yea.



It's really not a bigdeal or worth us going in to depth on - I just think the chances are that it has a poly base.

It's all good! :)

No problem, I think chances are it does not. We talked about that very thing when I ordered it. :AOK

[J.T. Guitar]

Show a chart... people love that! ;)

:mob

[Lewkk]

No problem, I think chances are it does not. We talked about that very thing when I ordered it. :AOK

In which case I'm probably wrong - not the first time and wont be the last time either :D

[Groovey Records]

Tag could you provide a clip that aught to settle this once and for all

:)

[fullerplast]

Show a chart... people love that! ;)

:mob

Like charts? Here's a good one for you.....:D

You also have the luxury of living in Maryland, where the humidity varies about 10% from a 50% mean. In Colorado, it can swing from less than 8% to 60% within a day. Quite a different environment.

So here is your Colorado data from the same source you used for Maryland....looks like a nice even 45%RH +/- 6%. Should be a nice stable environment for guitars, huh? Still agree with your data source???:rotflmao:rotflmao

http://www.worldtravelguide.net/a/main/8f350f44-1a25-476a-9457-1c431cc20c8b/563a7dd0-d7f1-4216-8070-81dd4a9981d1/d7ce88cc-38bb-4f0d-8c52-b626383ce6df.gif

Carry on......

[fullerplast]

Had you actually read your own chart; those are the humidity readings from Cheyenne, WY. :D

Regardless, it's still a lower average than in the arid desert of the northeastern U.S.... :roll

Dude....Cheyenne is 5 miles from the Colorado border. They obviously used the closest weather recording station. Climate doesn't vary that much in 5 miles!:facepalm

You still don't get it, do you?:confused: If you used that Colorado data to draw conclusions about Colorado humidity and guitars, you'd come to the same conclusion that you did about Maryland humidity and guitars.

IOW, the data sucks for both places. You can't draw meaningful conclusions from it. The relative humidity in Maryland can easily vary 30% to 40% within a day, and often does.....just like it does in Colorado.

The average of a 0% to 100% swing is 50%.....just like the average of a 40% to 60% swing...... just like a steady 50% reading. You need to know more about the data than what your graphs show. That's why your conclusions were so far off....and just plain wrong.

[J.T. Guitar]

Like charts? Here's a good one for you.....:D



So here is your Colorado data from the same source you used for Maryland....looks like a nice even 45%RH +/- 6%. Should be a nice stable environment for guitars, huh? Still agree with your data source???:rotflmao:rotflmao

http://www.worldtravelguide.net/a/main/8f350f44-1a25-476a-9457-1c431cc20c8b/563a7dd0-d7f1-4216-8070-81dd4a9981d1/d7ce88cc-38bb-4f0d-8c52-b626383ce6df.gif

Carry on......

Had you actually taken the time to read your own chart, you might have realized that those are humidity readings from Cheyenne, WY. Cheyenne is basically very flat, on the plains, and quite a distance from Denver. Also, Cheyenne has no mountians in it's immediate propinquity.

Denver is nestled very close to the mountains. I can explain how the saturated adiabatic lapse rate, when in close proximity to the mountains, has an effect on humidity levels if you wish... but you probably already know all that. :D

Regardless, even Cheyenne has a lower average humidity than the arid desert of the northeastern U.S.... :roll

[J.T. Guitar]

Dude....Cheyenne is 5 miles from the Colorado border. They obviously used the closest weather recording station. Climate doesn't vary that much in 5 miles!:facepalm

You still don't get it, do you?:confused: If you used that Colorado data to draw conclusions about Colorado humidity and guitars, you'd come to the same conclusion that you did about Maryland humidity and guitars.

IOW, the data sucks for both places. You can't draw meaningful conclusions from it. The relative humidity in Maryland can easily vary 30% to 40% within a day, and often does.....just like it does in Colorado.

The average of a 0% to 100% swing is 50%.....just like the average of a 40% to 60% swing...... just like a steady 50% reading. You need to know more about the data than what your graphs show. That's why your conclusions were so far off....and just plain wrong.

FYI- Denver is at least a hundred miles from Cheyenne. Here look at this chart...

Wyoming Cities to Denver
http://www.flydenver.com/images/global/clear.gif
Casper- 295
Cheyenne- 110
Jackson Hole- 550
Laramie- 155
Torrington- 195
Rawlins- 250
Rock Springs- 370

This is just fun! :crazyguy

BTW- All this and you didn't even notice the new guitar I got? It's da bomb!

:RoCkIn

[littlepicker]

Most DeTemple guitars have flame necks. Are they known to have problems?

[tubeinmyhead]

hey... youz' guyz' are runnin' th' thread to th' grown'... :BluesBros

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Han - this is an awesome topic!

To the builders - I REALLY appreciate your thoughts on this! much appreciated!! good stuff!!!

:D

[fullerplast]

Now that the humidity issues have been put to bed:bender....back on topic.


In addition to Thorn, Kirn, PRS, Taylor, and DeTemple, here are a few more luthier/builders that have used flame maple necks. I think most people agree that D'Angelico and D'Aquisto are considered to be among the finest luthiers of all time. (The two shown here are listed at $65K and $70K).

D'Angelico:
http://www.gruhn.com/photo/AR3919.jpg

D'Aquisto:
http://www.gruhn.com/photo/AR3954.jpg

Gibson:
http://www.gruhn.com/photo/AR4028.jpg

Triggs:
http://www.gruhn.com/photo/AR4018.jpg

Bruton:
http://www.destroyallguitars.com/images/BrutonUniv-9.jpg

John Monteleone:
http://www.tgpwebzine.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/mont3-3.jpg
http://www.monteleone.net/gifs/bd-4b.JPGhttp://www.monteleone.net/a-gda-backdt-l.jpg

[Ian Anderson]

You will need to have had the wood aclimating a while, and know what it's been up to, it's stable, and plenty thick to properly dimension and straightline properly. You'll have a good start. Then you can build the neck slowly over time. You'll likely have a good neck. You'll need a lacquer or other hard finish.

If you take home a .750 thick piece of flame from the lumberyard and build a slab board neck right then and there without properly seasoning and dimensioning the wood, you are almost certain to have problems.

[J.T. Guitar]

Good info... this thread has attracted the heavy hitters. I'd love to try one of your Standards sometime Ian!

[fullerplast]

Looks like Nik Huber is another:
http://visit.webhosting.yahoo.com/visit.gif?&r=http%3A//www.google.com/search%3Fsourceid%3Dnavclient%26ie%3DUTF-8%26rlz%3D1T4CNDB_enUS318US318%26q%3Dnik+huber+gui tars+curly+maple&b=Microsoft%20Internet%20Explorer%204.0%20%28compa tible%3B%20MSIE%207.0%3B%20Windows%20NT%205.1%3B%2 0GTB6%3B%20.NET%20CLR%201.1.4322%3B%20.NET%20CLR%2 02.0.50727%29&s=1344x840&o=Win32&c=32&j=true&v=1.2 http://www.infinityguitars.com/files/nik_blueorcabl.jpg

[fullerplast]

Well, lads, if Suhr and McInturff say they're a bad choice, then they're a bad choice. It so happens that their experience largely reflects my own. Game, set, match.

Rob

:huh Well, I'm not sure why my last couple of posts listing names and examples of the finest modern day luthiers using flame maple seem to have disappeared without a trace :confused:......

But the fact is that luthiers not participating in this discussion who have used or use flame/curly maple for necks include:

D'Angelico
D'Aquisto
Lloyd Loar
Monteleone
Ron Thorn
Bob Taylor
Paul Reed Smith
DeTemple
Triggs
Nik Huber
Bruton
Comins
Ron Kirn

Some of these luthiers are considered to be the finest master builders of the modern guitar. All have considerable respect among peers. Many have iconic status among other builders and players. That's why it's not Game, Set, Match.....you can't even have a game when there's only one side.:YinYang

[big mike]

Post.

[Brian Scherzer]

There was something wrong with the thread that prevented pages 7 and 8 from being accessed. I copied the thread and slightly renamed it, deleted the old thread, and this seems to have fixed the problem.

[fullerplast]

There was something wrong with the thread that prevented pages 7 and 8 from being accessed. I copied the thread and slightly renamed it, deleted the old thread, and this seems to have fixed the problem.

:AOK Thanks Brian. What a bizarre problem...it was like the posts went invisible.

[Dave Coke]

:AOK Thanks Brian. What a bizarre problem...it was like the posts went invisible.

See? That's just the kind of mysterious and unexplainable problem that comes from dealing with figured wood...


:rimshot






:hide

[fullerplast]

See? That's just the kind of mysterious and unexplainable problem that comes from dealing with figured wood...


:eek: Powerful stuff, that figured wood.:D

[Ron Kirn]

the fact is that luthiers not participating in this discussion who have used or use flame/curly maple for necks include: Ok, Ok. . . . I use figured wood, I like figured wood, I have never had problems with figured wood.... :drool

Here’s one with juuuuuust a hint of figuring…….:rolleyes:
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=559906&highlight=Kirn


Ron Kirn

[teletalkin]

Sorry for a dumb question but I'm seeing pics of flame necks but the term "figured" is used....would the stability issue also include birds eye?

[Dave Coke]

Sorry for a dumb question but I'm seeing pics of flame necks but the term "figured" is used....would the stability issue also include birds eye?

I use the word "figured" as a broad term to refer to all the types of wood grain patterns, including birdseye, flame, burl, quilt, etc.

I should maybe mention that there are some types of figure which are almost always prone to internal stresses, such as crotch figuring. Because of the weight of the branch, the wood in this area is formed under tension/compression. When it's dried or machined, those internal stresses can cause all kinds of strange warpage and cracking of the piece. Very tricky to work with. People making bowls out of that stuff have a very tough time keeping them from splitting to pieces. Both drying and machining steps have to go very slowly.

Other figured woods like flame, birdseye, burls and quilt generally don't have this kind of macro stresses. There are exceptions though, such as if the tree grows on an angle for some reason. In regular lumber this called "reaction wood". Bad stuff and a waste of time to try to work with if you're unfortunate enough to get some. It's pretty obvious from the beginning if the wood has these problems though since it'll start to move and warp as soon as you machine it.

[TaronKeim]

:huh Well, I'm not sure why my last couple of posts listing names and examples of the finest modern day luthiers using flame maple seem to have disappeared without a trace :confused:......

But the fact is that luthiers not participating in this discussion who have used or use flame/curly maple for necks include:

D'Angelico
D'Aquisto
Lloyd Loar
Monteleone
Ron Thorn
Bob Taylor
Paul Reed Smith
DeTemple
Triggs
Nik Huber
Bruton
Comins
Ron Kirn

Some of these luthiers are considered to be the finest master builders of the modern guitar. All have considerable respect among peers. Many have iconic status among other builders and players. That's why it's not Game, Set, Match.....you can't even have a game when there's only one side.:YinYang

Lots of these builders employ building techniques that other builders aren't into - like dual trussrods, carbon laminates and multi-piece necks w/ and w/o laminates between the pieces.

Also, regardless of experience, some of these builders just haven't seen the same numbers as John, Terry, Vince and Roger - so they might not have enough experience to make and educated opinion, yet.

Just because something is an option for a builder - doesn't always mean it is perfect.

Lastly, a $25K archtop is a completely different animal than a $2K to $10K guitar - you're paying a premium for the luthiers skills but also his stash of wood, which is carefully selected over decades and allowed to aclimate for nearly that length as well - under stringent observation.

I would also argue that it is in relation to neck size as well, a .780 - .830 medium slim neck is going to be prone to more warping than a big C .870 to .930 (like found on an archtop) due to added strength from density; so I think carve would definately come into the argument - guys doing bat-carved necks with flame maple aren't going to see the issues that guys making Am Stan sized necks will.

_TJK*

[fullerplast]

Lots of these builders employ building techniques that other builders aren't into - like dual trussrods, carbon laminates and multi-piece necks w/ and w/o laminates between the pieces.

For example?.... Which ones and what techniques in particular?

Also, regardless of experience, some of these builders just haven't seen the same numbers as John, Terry, Vince and Roger - so they might not have enough experience to make and educated opinion, yet.

...and some have more experience and/or numbers than all of them combined.;)

Just because something is an option for a builder - doesn't always mean it is perfect.

:confused: Not sure where this came from? Is anything perfect? Did anybody anywhere say it was?

Lastly, a $25K archtop is a completely different animal than a $2K to $10K guitar - you're paying a premium for the luthiers skills but also his stash of wood, which is carefully selected over decades and allowed to aclimate for nearly that length as well.

You always pay for skill and materials, regardless of figured wood or not. Almost half of those luthiers listed are not archtop builders....and the neck stability issues are going to be the same, archtop or not. One could just as easily argue that a luthier building a $25K - $50K archtop would want to take minimal risks. That's a sizeable amount of money to put on the line....not to mention putting the reputation of these luthiers enjoy at risk.

I would also argue that it is in relation to neck size as well, a .780 - .830 medium slim neck is going to be prone to more warping than a big C .870 to .930 (like found on an archtop) due to added strength from density; so I think carve would definately come into the argument - guys doing bat-carved necks with flame maple aren't going to see the issues that guys making Am Stan sized necks will.

_TJK*

Absolutely. Flame or not, thin necks will have more stability issues than thick necks. Not sure I'd generalize all archtops as having thick necks though.....

[meatboard]

Internationally you have to include Brian Monty who is known for his neck. He used mostly mahogany but does use curly maple on his Montreal archtop according to specs from his Web site.

span.jajahWrapper { font-size:1em; color:#B11196; text-decoration:underline; } a.jajahLink { color:#000000; text-decoration:none; } span.jajahInLink:hover { background-color:#B11196; }

[Husky]

Figured wood is diseased and crippled
Sure you can build a guitar neck out of basswood if you want and it might work for many years. The main reason I dont like birdsyeye is because I find it rattles in the wrong places and the tone is unpredictable. Non of the Master Builders at Fender liked using figured woods.
I'm not here to be challenged on how many guitars have gone through my hands but it is on the order of 16,800 in the last 30 years, I still stand by my opinion that if I were making a guitar for a friend I would not use anything figured unless it was vulcanized and I warn my customer who go that direction they might be adjusting their necks more than if it were plain grain. I have never had to rebuild a plain grain neck for twisting.... ever. Arch tops have shorter necks and would have less of a problem if any. Aging and cure time really doesnt have anything to do with it, I have had highly figured necks be stable for 3 years and then all of a sudden go nutty. I'm sure if you asked the other builders on that figured list (of which I should be included because I still offer it) what would they recommend for stabilty, tone and a maintenance friendly guitar they would tell you plane grain rift or qtr swn is the best choice. We offer figured wood because people demand it.

[Chris Scott]

Another thing that comes to mind is the method in which the neck is shaped. Modern drum sanders speed up the process but generate a great deal of heat. This heat can drastically alter the moisture content on the side of the neck being shaped. If the neck is not allowed to return to equilibrium prior to fingerboard and bindings going on, themselves adding moisture on the opposite side of the heating/drying, serious stress can be built into a neck. Carving a neck with only edged tools should not result in such issues. When in doubt on the grain, though you can always rip it and flip it, add a spline for even more stiffness and control.

Good point.

[Husky]

What is vulcanized? Same think as Charvel's "cooked" guitars?
Wow, figured wood is diseased?
Does a two-piece neck solve the problem? A stiff board would solve the problem?

If we are talking tone and stability qtr swn is hard to beat, or rift or even flat. With these necks I offer a lifetime waranty to the original owner.
Vulcanized necks we have never seen move and they sound resonant and fat, this is maple
http://gallery.me.com/suhrguitars#101077

[anyone]

If we are talking tone and stability qtr swn is hard to beat, or rift or even flat. With these necks I offer a lifetime waranty to the original owner.
Vulcanized necks we have never seen move and they sound resonant and fat, this is maple
http://gallery.me.com/suhrguitars#101077

Dang! That's a fine-lookin' fiddle!

I'm super curious about this vulcanized maple business...

[fullerplast]

Figured wood is diseased and crippled

:nono Come on John.....you know that you can't make that generic statement. You can't lump curly maple (which we are discussing here) in with burlwood and spalted wood. Most curly maple comes from perfectly straight and healthy trees and there still is not a concensus on the exact cause, despite considerable research.

Arch tops have shorter necks and would have less of a problem if any.

So a couple of inches in length is the reason there is no problem? :confused: I suspect that the same issues would exist. Arch tops also use very thin and wide expanses of figured maple for the back and sides.

I'm sure if you asked the other builders on that figured list (of which I should be included because I still offer it) what would they recommend for stabilty, tone and a maintenance friendly guitar they would tell you plane grain rift or qtr swn is the best choice. We offer figured wood because people demand it.

Could be....but anybody building $10,000-$50,000 guitars is probably going to be pretty confident in their choice of woods.

Sometimes complete reduction of all risk to the absolute minimum is not the goal. I'm certainly not seeing any hard numbers in terms of actual percentage of problems over large quantities but I do see that both the highest volume builders/parts vendors and the highest priced builders continue to use it. Wood of any type can twist and warp so maybe we should all be using carbon fiber necks.....

If we applied the same philosophy to cars we'd all be driving Volvos for safety or Hondas for reliability.

[John Hurtt]

I've only had probably 70-80 guitars pass through my hands over the years. Probably 40 have been Fender strats and tele's. Of these, roughly half had highly figured necks...both maple and rosewood board. I've only had one neck ever twist on me...and it was a no figure, quarter sawn neck with an ebony board. I've never noticed any difference in stability set up wise between figured and non-figured necks. Some need more attention...some don't. I still have two strats with just crazy figuring and both are rock stable. Both are 11-12 years old now. Just a user perspective...

[fullerplast]

I'm super curious about this vulcanized maple business...

I'm not sure what supplier John uses, but IMHO "vulcanized" is a bit of a misnomer since it applies specifically to a rubber treatment process (think hockey puck and tires) and involves a chemical reaction with sulphur as well as the application of heat.

For wood, AFAIK it's basically a high heat oven treatment followed by a vaporization/gas cooling. It seems that the process (called the Perdure process (http://www.qc.ec.gc.ca/dpe/Anglais/dpe_main_en.asp?innov_fiche_200605a#8)) has been pioneered by a Canadian company, PCI Industries. It's marketed in the US by Greenleaf/Cambia (http://www.cambiawood.com/data.html), possibly others as "Thermally Modified" wood, and licensed by PCI.

It does change the wood at the structural level:
the actual treatment consists of modifying the macromolecular structure of the wood. This modification is achieved only by subjecting the wood to high temperature whereby alcohols, tars and resins migrate from the cells to the walls of the wood. These various products then form a protective layer that stops or slows down rotting when wood is exposed.

I don't know if this is the same technology that John is referring to when he uses the term "vulcanized", but it would appear very similar. Since PCI purchased the intellectual property rights to the process itself, I'm not sure how many others would be using it. It was originally intended as an alternative to chemically treating wood for rot and insect resistance, but does appear to have good potential in preserving the stability of wood.

Since it is still in it's infancy with respect to use as maple guitar necks (I think John announced this in March '09), the long term results or any downsides (tone, figured wood reaction/appearance, refrets, finish adherence, etc) are still TBD. It certainly looks extremely promising and kudos go out to John for pushing the envelope yet again.:aok

[Husky]

:nono Come on John.....you know that you can't make that generic statement. You can't lump curly maple (which we are discussing here) in with burlwood and spalted wood. Most curly maple comes from perfectly straight and healthy trees and there still is not a concensus on the exact cause, despite considerable research.



So a couple of inches in length is the reason there is no problem? :confused: I suspect that the same issues would exist. Arch tops also use very thin and wide expanses of figured maple for the back and sides.



Could be....but anybody building $10,000-$50,000 guitars is probably going to be pretty confident in their choice of woods.

Sometimes complete reduction of all risk to the absolute minimum is not the goal. I'm certainly not seeing any hard numbers in terms of actual percentage of problems over large quantities but I do see that both the highest volume builders/parts vendors and the highest priced builders continue to use it. Wood of any type can twist and warp so maybe we should all be using carbon fiber necks.....

If we applied the same philosophy to cars we'd all be driving Volvos for safety or Hondas for reliability.


I have had internal or external fallout due to wood instability on 30% of the figured maple I get compared to 5% of my plain grain. Many times the fallout on figured happens years later depending on the conditions it lives in. This is rejecting the wood for instability alone. We dont do multi lam necks like a Jazz box maker would do and yes a few inches makes a big difference. In my experience figured wood is not as reliable as plain grain when I pick the cream of the crop from each.... take my opinion/experience or follow your own path, figured wood has bitten me in the ass too many times tonally and for reliability. I wont recommend it to my friends:boxer
I dont remember ever have one of my plane grains twist after the guitar has been built, ever.
Figured is a completely different story.

Vulcan term as we use it is from the god of fire, the wood is cured at very high temperature in an oxygen free environment. No chemicals are involved and it is different than the treatment you reference to but along the same path. I use the exact same wood and supplier as I always have used and it is all from the far North East areas of the US

[fullerplast]

Vulcan term as we use it is from the god of fire, the wood is cured at very high temperature in an oxygen free environment. No chemicals are involved and it is different than the treatment you reference to but along the same path. I use the exact same wood and supplier as I always have used and it is all from the far North East areas of the US

Interesting....that's exactly where Cambria is located too!

How bizarre is that....to have two different high heat wood processors in New England, especially since the process appears to be licensed!:huh

[Husky]

Interesting....that's exactly where Cambria is located too!

How bizarre is that....to have two different high heat wood processors in New England, especially since the process appears to be licensed!:huh



Not the same people and not my supplier, I will ask my guy about it though.
Who knows, maybe he uses them to do it. However whenever I asked about a less extreme process compared to what I am getting they said it would not nearly have the same properties or same stability as my brown vulcanized wood. It seems like their temperatures are not close to what ours are done at, I hardly think the process could be patented since it has been done since the dawn of man, of course the ovens might be.

Nice to see there is some real data and excitement to back up the idea though and that similar but much less extreme variations have been done before. We still have not had to adjust any of these necks... ever.

[fullerplast]

Not the same people and not my supplier, I will ask my guy about it though.
Who knows, maybe he uses them to do it. However whenever I asked about a less extreme process compared to what I am getting they said it would not nearly have the same properties or same stability as my brown vulcanized wood. It seems like their temperatures are not close to what ours are done at, I hardly think the process could be patented since it has been done since the dawn of man, of course the ovens might be.

Nice to see there is some real data and excitement to back up the idea though and that similar but much less extreme variations have been done before. We still have not had to adjust any of these necks... ever.

Interesting stuff for sure, and again kudos for thinking outside the box.:aok This sort of high temperature processing has apparently been studied in Europe for the last 20 years, but not so much in the US. The particular Perdure process "only" goes up to about 500F, and one of their studies does express some concern about higher temperatures:Heat Treatment of Wood (http://www.bfafh.de/inst4/43/pdf/heat_fra.pdf)

In the "don't get something for nothing dept", the main concerns would appear to be with finish and glue adhesion, brittleness, and cracking; with hardwoods being more susceptable and difficult to process. Some of the highlights:


Documented properties
All properties are very dependent upon the wood species, the type of process, the final temperature
reached.
However, in all cases, the material turns brownish in color, higher the temperature reached, darker the
final product.
Smell
Wood treated at high temperature has always a strong smell just after treatment. After few days, such
a smell decreases in intensity but could remain for several months.
Mechanical properties
As mentioned above, mechanical properties are very dependent upon the control of the process, the
final temperature, the wood species etc.
The parameters to take into account are numerous and very sensitive to slight modification. In any
case, the material becomes more brittle. At 230°C, quite often, a decrease of MOR in the range of 30
to 40 % can be measured with a very brittle behavior. (Catastrophic failure, without creep).
According to previous testing, mechanical properties after heat treatment are not strongly affected for
poplar as they are for other species like pine trees.
This means that the density is not the only parameter involved.
Paintability
Surface tension of the wood is drastically affected after heat treatment.
Any kind of painting and finishing usually used for untreated wood cannot be used. However, it is
possible to find some formulation and paints adequate on a surface of heat treated wood. If needed
surface tension can be adjusted by additives. The main problem can arise from exudation of the resin
from the resinous species.
Gluability
Proper glues have to be applied with heat treated wood. Research projects are presently carried out in
CTBA Bordeaux on that topic.
Weathering properties
Wood treated at high temperature turns grey in colour after exposition to sun and UV, for few weeks.
It is generally assumed that such grey colour is more homogenous than for untreated wood. Cracking,
due to dimensional motion is reduced in comparison with natural wood.
Hygroscopicity
Wood treated at high temperature has less hygroscopicity than natural wood. It stabilises around 4 – 5
% in humidity instead of 10 to 12 %. This low hygroscopicity is of importance on biological
durability (rot, stains, mould).
However, the material presents a certain porosity and when dipped in water it can absorbe more than
20 % of water. But when dried again the water can take out quite easily. Such behaviour is of
importance for building materials.
Dimensional stability and cracking
It is known that heat treatment at a temperature above 200°C reduces by factor two dimensional
movements. However, dimensional stability is largely dependent upon the process, the final
temperature, the wood species.
Wood species
Species of high density are more difficult to process than low-density species. With species of high
density (mostly hardwood) heat treatment has a tendency to induce cracking lowering drastically
mechanical properties. Poplar seems to be interesting to process giving good results in terms of
physical properties and durability. A large study on maritime pine has been carried out in France and
the main results will be commented.
Durability
Durability is very dependent upon several factors:

•
wood species

•


type of process

•


control accuracy of the process

•


process time

maximum temperature reached and duration of time at such temperature.

[Husky]

Interesting stuff for sure, and again kudos for thinking outside the box.:aok This sort of high temperature processing has apparently been studied in Europe for the last 20 years, but not so much in the US. The particular Perdure process "only" goes up to about 500F, and one of their studies does express some concern about higher temperatures

In the "don't get something for nothing dept", the main concerns would appear to be with finish and glue adhesion, brittleness, and cracking; with hardwoods being more susceptible and difficult to process. Some of the highlights:


Been confirmed by my people that it is not the same people or process. We dont have any problem with brittleness, glue adhesion or cracking due to a major difference in the process. The wood is processed in a manner that locks in a roughly 6% MC, different from perdure's claims, how this is achieved it is proprietary.
The only downside if you could call it that to our process is the dark color.

[Dave Coke]

We still have not had to adjust any of these necks... ever.

Does that include the necks made with figured wood? I saw the pics of a pretty birdseye neck you had treated with this process & you seemed pretty pleased with it. And I imagine you've built more than just that one...

When I hear stories of necks that warp/twist years down the road, I suspect stress problems induced during initial drying of the board. I don't think I stated it this way before, but my guess is that it may be more difficult to remove the bound water from tight curly stock, so slower drying schedules may be called for. Without a bigger safety margin, the regular maple drying schedules that are used might end up causing internal stresses in a certain percentage of the curly stock. Anyway, it's one possible explaination for why some curly necks have twisted late in life but not others.

Following that theory, I'd agree that there may be some risk with using curly stock for necks, but I also believe that if the stock is successfully dried without such stresses, it can be just as safe to use as unfigured wood. That would explain why some figured necks out there seem to have no trouble at all. (BTW, I agree that figured necks may tend to need a little more seasonal truss rod adjustments, but that kind of maintenance is very different than the problem of twisting or warping out of commission...)

If that theory for warpage is correct, then the challenge is either 1) to be more certain that the curly stock used has been dried stress free, or 2) make sure that you can successfully detect and discard pieces that do have internal stress, or 3) find a way to reliably treat the pieces to ensure any stresses that might be present are relieved.

There are other techniques that people use to try to relieve drying-related stresses (steam cycles after drying is complete for example). I'm curious if you think your heat treatment process may have such an effect of stabilizing the wood... And more generally I guess, I'm curious to know what your confidence is using figured wood for necks if they've gone through this "vulcanizing" heat treatment you use.

[Husky]

I'm curious to know what your confidence is using figured wood for necks if they've gone through this "vulcanizing" heat treatment you use.

If it has been vulcanized it really isnt going to move, birds-eye or not but the birds-eye isn't nearly as visible.

[fullerplast]

Been confirmed by my people that it is not the same people or process. We dont have any problem with brittleness, glue adhesion or cracking due to a major difference in the process. The wood is processed in a manner that locks in a roughly 6% MC, different from perdure's claims, how this is achieved it is proprietary.

Perhaps that's why the processes are indeed patented and licensed.....;)

The paper I just referenced earlier lists the MC as stabilizing about 4-5%. It also references a second process called the Retification process, that is very similar, but a bit less oxygen (less than 2%) and a bit more nitrogen. The cooling process is slightly different, but overall the net results are very similar.

But if your process really goes to 700F (370C) then it is indeed quite different. The other processes cannot go above about 240C without risking damage to the wood.

I'll be very interested to hear the impact to the tone, both neck and body. In some ways, the way the process changes the cellular structure mimics some aspects of the natural aging process so it may be a way to get closer to "old wood" characteristics.

AFAIK your first guitar was built in the Feb-Mar '09 timeframe? Do you know how many of these necks you have in the field so far John? Any bodies done yet?

[fullerplast]

Anyone know anything about Charvel's "cooked" wood guitars, and how they relate to this discussion? I think they're cooking all the wood in the guitar? I'd guess similar to this vulcanization proces...but I doubt they'd be up to Suhr's quality level.

It sounds like very much the same or similar process for both bodies and necks. I doubt there are a great many of these specialty ovens in the states yet.....

Note that they will be using an oiled/wax finish, not painted. They also claim a lighter weight and a higher resonant frequency than the untreated versions.

[Husky]

Perhaps that's why the processes are indeed patented and licensed.....;)


I'll be very interested to hear the impact to the tone, both neck and body. In some ways, the way the process changes the cellular structure mimics some aspects of the natural aging process so it may be a way to get closer to "old wood" characteristics.
AFAIK your first guitar was built in the Feb-Mar '09 timeframe? Do you know how many of these necks you have in the field so far John? Any bodies done yet?


We started using them in January, We cut 10 and have had them under stress tests, soaked in water, as well as heat and water applied to one side, left one neck outside near my sprinklers for 1 week. I can not make these neck twist They sound great, no problems and I have no problems with machining or being brittle. I cant get into the specifics of what or how it is done since I don't really know, just that there are no chemicals involved and it is a proprietary process that they dont wish to make public and that it does not infringe on anybodies patents. They dont use the same ovens either. My guy is well aware of the other processes though and explained them to me in detail.
Yes I do think it has that old world tone for sure, it also tends to equalize out the frequency sweeps so that 2 necks once more disimilar become much closer in freq response.

[fullerplast]

Yes I do think it has that old world tone for sure, it also tends to equalize out the frequency sweeps so that 2 necks once more disimilar become much closer in freq response.

Makes sense that differences would be reduced.

It also sounds like perhaps just a thin Tru-Oil finish may be completely adequate for protection? Old maple necks with no finish are just so comfortable.....

[Husky]

Makes sense that differences would be reduced.

It also sounds like perhaps just a thin Tru-Oil finish may be completely adequate for protection? Old maple necks with no finish are just so comfortable.....

I'm sure it would and I agree.

[e h e]

Examples of older instruments incorporating figured maple, however attractive and sonorously pleasant, are not useful in assessing the suitability of the material for certain instrument making applications. In particular, the mere existance of these 100 year plus instruments provides no meaningful statistical evidence to advance any particular position. The problem is, obviously, that the data is self-sorted.
It reminds me of those romantics who point to examples of dolphins leading people ashore after ship wrecks as evidence of that species's intelligence and sympatico with the human race.
In short, it is unclear how many additional instruments from this period may have been produced with figured maple and failed at some previous point in time. No doubt, Jerry Butler was right.


;)Well, if there weren't a few other luthiers on the planet that have been using figured maple for centuries, I might agree with you.....

But virtually all the finest violin, cello, etc luthiers have been using it practically exclusively for generations, for thin body pieces and necks. Many are well over 100 years old:

http://www.sprucetreemusic.com/vln031007a.jpg

But I do fully understand the concept of odds and probability, so I'm fine with somebody stating that straight grained maple has a higher probability of stability than figured maple. No problem.

But I also feel that part of the beauty of a wooden instrument comes from the wood itself and the uniqueness of grain and figure. Otherwise, we'd paint them all sea foam green and be done with it.:D

So much like living on the ocean, you assume some risk to get the beauty of a sunset every night. If a good looking instrument inspires you to pick it up more often, maybe it's worth the risk....:YinYang

[fullerplast]

Examples of older instruments incorporating figured maple, however attractive and sonorously pleasant, are not useful in assessing the suitability of the material for certain instrument making applications. In particular, the mere existance of these 100 year plus instruments provides no meaningful statistical evidence to advance any particular position. The problem is, obviously, that the data is self-sorted.
It reminds me of those romantics who point to examples of dolphins leading people ashore after ship wrecks as evidence of that species's intelligence and sympatico with the human race.
In short, it is unclear how many additional instruments from this period may have been produced with figured maple and failed at some previous point in time. No doubt, Jerry Butler was right.

Late to the thread? :D I'd say the fact that I can show you countless examples of instruments that have survived for generations, along with showing you examples of current work from the undisputed master luthiers of the last century is a helluva more meaningful evidence of the suitability than your counter argument....containing no supporting evidence of anything.

But we've gotten past that point in the thread already.:Spank Your name has been placed in the anti-figured camp. We're onto cooler things now. Just don't go around 'dissin dolphins....they're smarter than you know. ;)

[J.T. Guitar]

There is enough evidence in the fact that this thread is still going to believe that overall stability is better in non-figured wood...

The rubber meets the road question is; If you were walking on a plank of wood spanning across 200 foot deep canyon, would you rather be supported by a straight grain, qtr sawn plank, or a figured plank?

I thought so.

[fullerplast]

The rubber meets the road question is; If you were walking on a plank of wood spanning across 200 foot deep canyon, would you rather be supported by a straight grain, qtr sawn plank, or a figured plank?


:dunno Nitro or poly finish?

[J.T. Guitar]

:dunno Nitro or poly finish?

Ahhh... A question that really gets to the meat of the matter! :bow For strength, poly... but poly can be slick, and you could fall anyway!

I'm going to stick with straight grain and poly in my planks, and in my guitars.

[e h e]

Indeed, I offer(ed) no "counter" argument. My insight, whatever it may be worth, is a commentary on the value of evidence you have offered in support of your opinion. Please revisit my post, regardless of its percieved timeliness. It's all there. Or you could post pics of centuries old figured maple instruments that failed in the first fifty or so years after they were made. Better yet, post some testimonials from
distressed folks, adrift in the ocean who encountered dolphins that led them further out to sea, never to be heard from again.

Late to the thread? :D I'd say the fact that I can show you countless examples of instruments that have survived for generations, along with showing you examples of current work from the undisputed master luthiers of the last century is a helluva more meaningful evidence of the suitability than your counter argument....containing no supporting evidence of anything.

But we've gotten past that point in the thread already.:Spank Your name has been placed in the anti-figured camp. We're onto cooler things now. Just don't go around 'dissin dolphins....they're smarter than you know. ;)

[fullerplast]

Indeed, I offer(ed) no "counter" argument. My insight, whatever it may be worth, is a commentary on the value of evidence you have offered in support of your opinion. Please revisit my post, regardless of its percieved timeliness. It's all there. Or you could post pics of centuries old figured maple instruments that failed in the first fifty or so years after they were made. Better yet, post some testimonials from
distressed folks, adrift in the ocean who encountered dolphins that led them further out to sea, never to be heard from again.

It's not my job to support your commentary for you!:roll You want to present counter-examples, be my guest!

Or perhaps you could revisit this list of modern luthiers that have used or use flame/curly maple for necks again:

D'Angelico
D'Aquisto
Lloyd Loar
Monteleone
Ron Thorn
Bob Taylor
Paul Reed Smith
DeTemple
Triggs
Nik Huber
Bruton
Comins
Ron Kirn

Some of these luthiers are considered to be the finest master builders of the modern guitar. All have considerable respect among peers. Many have iconic status among other builders and players.

Perhaps that is more significant for you than the master luthiers of previous centuries.:dunno

In any event, I'd watch your step next time you visit SeaWorld if I were you. :crazyguy

[e h e]

I can't present counter examples, and the kicks part is, neither can you. Your old luthier/figured maple example, and my Dolphin-Hero story are both wonderful examples of self-selected data. But you knew that, right? There are testimonials only about hero dolphins for obvious reasons-those unfortunate souls ignored or worse, led further out to sea by dolphins to perish are not available to give their testimonials about that aspect of dolphin behaviour (yes, I am in fact laughing while typing this).
Similarly, instruments made from highly figured maple a century or more ago that failed are no longer around to photograph and post on this board. It makes little sense, then, to offer pictures of the surviving figured maple instruments as evidence of the suitability of that type of material for the type of applications that are being discussed here. The ongoing use of this material may, in fact, be due to a confounding (in the strict statistical sense) fact, as has been suggested here already. That is, demand for instruments with this figuring may be the result of its publicly percieved association with quality, and its aesthetic appeal. I know it's '09 and all, but I would never ask you to do my job.



It's not my job to support your commentary for you!:roll You want to present counter-examples, be my guest!

Or perhaps you could revisit this list of modern luthiers that have used or use flame/curly maple for necks again:

D'Angelico
D'Aquisto
Lloyd Loar
Monteleone
Ron Thorn
Bob Taylor
Paul Reed Smith
DeTemple
Triggs
Nik Huber
Bruton
Comins
Ron Kirn

Some of these luthiers are considered to be the finest master builders of the modern guitar. All have considerable respect among peers. Many have iconic status among other builders and players.

Perhaps that is more significant for you than the master luthiers of previous centuries.:dunno

In any event, I'd watch your step next time you visit SeaWorld if I were you. :crazyguy

[Little Nip]

This is an interesting and thought provoking thread. I think there are valid points on both sides here. There are clear straight grained boards with internal stresses, some as a result of growing conditions, tree on a hillside, etc. and some introduced during kiln drying. The same is true with figured woods plus they have grain patterns which clearly lend themselves to unpredictable movement. The point is, some boards (necks) are likely to move due to internal stress.
I have a theory, though I've been unable to find much data, outside of my personal experience, to support it. I think most woodworkers would agree that wood that has been cut for a long time tends, on average, to be more stable (less warping, cupping etc. during milling) than recently cut and dried wood. My theory is that, over time the stresses are somewhat relieved. In other words, cells that want to slip against their neighboring cells eventually do.
Most kiln drying manuals describe a process for conditioning lumber at the end of the drying schedule. The descriptions refer to relieving stress introduced during drying, casehardening etc. In our kiln we spend an unusually long time during the conditioning phase. This is expensive but since we use most of the wood we dry, the stability, no bananas when ripping, it is worth it to us.
Here is the theory part. We also do a fair amount of steam bending in our work. Thought there are several explanations for the exact physiological phenomenon that occurs during steam bending, they all seem to agree that some portion of the wood becomes plasticized with the heat and moisture. Interestingly, heat and moisture are also significant parts of the conditioning during kiln drying. My theory is that a significant part of the stress (in some-but not the most severe cases) in boards, straight grained or figured, can be relieved through proper drying. Stresses are adjacent cells in tension and compression. If the lignin or hemicellulose is plasticized, some of that tension/compression could be relieved. This is uncommon since drying is expensive and additional time in the kiln for something that can't be quantifiably measured is hard to justify.

[Dave Coke]

My theory is that a significant part of the stress (in some-but not the most severe cases) in boards, straight grained or figured, can be relieved through proper drying. Stresses are adjacent cells in tension and compression. If the lignin or hemicellulose is plasticized, some of that tension/compression could be relieved. This is uncommon since drying is expensive and additional time in the kiln for something that can't be quantifiably measured is hard to justify.

Nice first post, Little Nip! Thanks for your insights and welcome to TGP...

I've wondered the same thing. I understand that reaction wood (tree grown on a slope) is one of the most difficult (if not "impossible") to relieve. This would be a good experiment I'd think, if you could find a severely stressed piece, to see if a more extensive application of heat and moisture could stress relieve reaction wood. Kind of a worst-case test...

A related question for you - do you or have you heard of people drying or conditioning figured wood at a different schedule than plain grain? Would that make any sense to you? I've wondered if figured wood might be more susceptible to localized stresses. If so, I'd think it would be worthwhile to spend the extra drying $ on the premium pieces to ensure minimized stresses.

[Little Nip]

Dave,
I don't know much about kiln schedules used by others. We wouldn't use a different schedule for curly maple from the schedule we'd use for the same thickness and grain orientation straight grained maple. I've no experience with birds eye but, if we were to accumulate a kiln load, I suspect we'd use a slightly more conservative schedule because with so much end grain exposed one runs the risk of getting minute checks if the drying is too aggressive. Our process varies most from conventional schedules in the conditioning phase.