Perceived Values

[levelfrets]

I figure this is an interesting topic that may irritate a few. No wars please. I just want opinions. Why do a certain group of consumers pay such huge amounts for less than subtle differences? For example, there are all these fancy hand made bridges, machine heads, plekked frets, etc, and they are perceived to be that much better than a less expensive alternative. In most cases the alternatives are less than half the price of these high priced parts and services. The actual improvement is usually so small that it would be hard to actually tell in a blind test. So much I would think there would probably be a 50/50 chance you would pick the cheaper alternative in a blind test. Now don't get me wrong there are really cheap parts and services that are worthless, but there are very reasonably priced parts and services that are superb. Then there are expensive parts and services that are just super expensive. So what is the perceived value of paying nearly double if not more for something that may only give you a subtle difference? Wouldn't it be of more value to have a reasonably priced alternative that can easily stand up to the expensive stuff? Granted there are instances where the more expensive parts and services really make a huge difference. But bridges? Machine Heads? Even pickups? Plekked? Seems that if you do some searching and talk to those who are very good and experienced, you would find that the less expensive alternatives would be of a better value and would still give you what you want.

[Baxtercat]

Toadally.....
I've been gigging 3 days a week or more for decades. I sounded good Saturday, and I'll sound good tonight at the local wharfside blues bar. Sometimes I use my $90 Saga kit Strat, sometimes my first Strat [bought in the '60s], whatever...

With the drummer whammin' away and the dancers bouncing up and down, cryogenic pickups, NOS blackplates, thin-skin nitro, and all that other stuff does not matter near as much as the obsessive types think.

[Jahn]

my big thing is that i can't stand hum. so my biggest tweaking vice is getting aftermarket pickups that don't hum. 3 of my 4 electrics are like this - Dimarzio Areas in my Tele and Bass VI, and noiseless P90s from Fralin comin' up in a few weeks for my LP Jr. Lite. my Artinger knew the biz beforehand and has a sweet bucker in there I'm not touching.

so for me, i can tell the difference right away when I mod something. hum or no hum!

[Dubious]

it's a law of diminishing returns

for each improvement even incremental beyond a certain point the cost outlay will be increased.

the other thing is it often doesn't work to say " i tried the cheap versus the more expensive and i could HARDLY hear the difference"

a good example would be mic preamps. I have a decent mixer, and a motu with built in pres. Ive done tones of recording thru them. But when i came into some cash i bought an API lunch box and some expensive pres to put in it.

now A/B'd solo against my original pres you can HARDLY hear much of a difference.. so little that initially i was a bit let down.. but where the improvement adds up is when you record MULITPLE things thru the pres... and how the recordings stand up in the OVERALL mix. Soloed you hardly hear a difference.. but in a mix where everything was run thru the cheap pres versus everything run thru the good pres the differance is HUGE.

the same holds true for guitars... just picking two guitars up and playing them side by side is NOT giving you the TOTAL picture.

[a1briz]

3 schools of thought

1 - Guitars as nothing more than a useful tool. (will not pay hugh amounts for subtle differences)

2 - Guitar as a work of art in and of itself. Like a painting, some folks will tweak and tweak until they achieve perfection. But perfection isn't really achievable, and also a person's view of what is perfect changes over time. (Anything less then the best will not satisfy)

3. Guitar as an investment - that is it has a resale value (might make sense to upgrade a component to make the guitar more attractive to prospective buyers if you intend or think you might sell in the future)

At least that's how I see it.

[kimock]

I figure this is an interesting topic that may irritate a few. No wars please. I just want opinions. Why do a certain group of consumers pay such huge amounts for less than subtle differences? For example, there are all these fancy hand made bridges, machine heads, plekked frets, etc, and they are perceived to be that much better than a less expensive alternative. In most cases the alternatives are less than half the price of these high priced parts and services. The actual improvement is usually so small that it would be hard to actually tell in a blind test. So much I would think there would probably be a 50/50 chance you would pick the cheaper alternative in a blind test. Now don't get me wrong there are really cheap parts and services that are worthless, but there are very reasonably priced parts and services that are superb. Then there are expensive parts and services that are just super expensive. So what is the perceived value of paying nearly double if not more for something that may only give you a subtle difference? Wouldn't it be of more value to have a reasonably priced alternative that can easily stand up to the expensive stuff? Granted there are instances where the more expensive parts and services really make a huge difference. But bridges? Machine Heads? Even pickups? Plekked? Seems that if you do some searching and talk to those who are very good and experienced, you would find that the less expensive alternatives would be of a better value and would still give you what you want.

How 'bout the other way 'round?
Take every single thing in your rig, and one by one, replace it with the next cheapest part.

Chew up a couple of dilaudids and wash them down with a couple of warm Bud lights and you're officially down one level.

The punchline is that could possibly be a huge improvement.
But really, probably not.
Would you want that?
Reduce the quality of everything to pad the bottom line.
Why don't people do that?
Make money on downgrades if upgrades don't work?
I never met anybody that said: "Hey what's crappier than the stock MIM Fender pickups for about six bucks a set? That's all I need."
Now for that guy, he really could get along with less, so what's his problem?
If the next step up doesn't make a difference, why not profit from the downgrade?
Why lose money for no noticeable gain when you can make money with no noticeable loss?
Why leave those fancy expensive stock pickups in that guitar?
If those stock pickups are really much better than he needs, and he doesn't sell 'em and use the proceeds to get some poorer quality pickups cheaply enough that he can pocket some cash in the deal, is he a pop-top sniffer?

I don't know. . .:huh


Enjoy your meal!

[mike80]

I guess IMO, part of the enjoyment of the tone is the journey to get there. Sure, I could throw a couple cheap parts on my guitar and call it done, but how much fun is it to say to someone (who talks gear) "I threw in a set of $6 pickups, and it sounds exactly the same as it did before."?

Part of the fun (for me at least) is the curiosity, wondering how much of a difference "item X" is going to make with my particular setup.

Also, with each item that gets replaced on a guitar, it makes it that much more personal and unique. Anyone can buy a R8, but who has one with these pickups, these pots, these caps, this bridge, etc?

[walterw]

Why leave those fancy expensive stock pickups in that guitar?
If those stock pickups are really much better than he needs, and he doesn't sell 'em and use the proceeds to get some poorer quality pickups cheaply enough that he can pocket some cash in the deal, is he a pop-top sniffer?

i actually know that guy! raging old school rock guitar player, always made it look effortless, seemed to have an endless bag of tricks, and the cheapest bastard i ever met!

after 20-30 years of gigging, and having all sorts of guitars/amps, i think he currently owns a stock '80s fernandez strat and a little marshall combo and that's it.

he would literally get rid of his good gear for cheap gear, even when he sold the good stuff at a loss.:jo

[GM Reszel]

'Perceived value' is the perfect title because there has been a shift in what we think is valuable in every corner of life.

Guitar gear fetish has grown more and more in the last decade or so. Through marketing players have become convinced that better gear = better sound and even better player.

Maybe what has shifted too is our work ethic; it's easy to believe that buying a certain piece of gear is going to make me sound like X awesome player vs. spending countless hours working on X's licks.

The point, 'what if you reverse it and buy the cheapest gear' - isn't what is suggested here by the thread starter as much as is the difference that appreciable? To say, 'I'm going to use the crappiest of crap to prove a point' is ridic.

In my early days everyone worshipped the tones Eddie Van Halen got on those first albums. When you see photos of the actual sessions you see his stock pedal board with pedals that didn't true bypass and multiple cheap looking vinyl cords hooking the whole business together. When parts of the Eruption solo fade you can hear all the noise.

Get the point?

Great gear is fun to peruse, purchase, try out and then sell on eBay for a loss. It is fun - but expensive and most of my listeners can't hear or know the difference. I just did an outdoor gig with my solid state Peavey 400 chorus amp and my Univox Ripper with its 3 stock, full size humbuckers (very clean ones - 6k ohms). At the end a young guitarist came up and commented how'd I'd totally copped the Stevie tone on an SRV song we did and asked what I used. This is the typical mindset today - 'it came from the gear, what are you using'? I won't toot my horn, I'm no SRV but I do know how to manipulate my amp, pickup settings and most importantly how to dig in with my hands and get the sounds I want (I use 9's by the way).

If you want to have fun buying the best gear and improving your sound from that angle, great for you; it IS a lot of fun and makes the guitar an enjoyable hobby and the MI industry will love you. Go read all the forums, ask questions like, 'what pickup will make me sound like Hendrix?'; best of luck to you.

I would just like to offer the alternative of learning your amp and instrument from the 'knowing it' angle by just playing the darn thing, not by buying every boutique thing.

[levelfrets]

I guess some people perceive the value of something by how much they appreciate what goes into it. Then the others just seem to be followers of the hype that goes into it. They don't really care that it costs twice as much or that it doesn't make that much of a difference if any. They just want the best or what they perceive to be the best. I on the other hand find myself looking at the actual cost and benefit of the cost. It drives me crazy but I was never a high end kinda person. I look at something and say its no more than what it really is. I certainly don't buy what I feel is cheap crap either.

[kidmandude]

Here's my 2 coins: Its all about MARKETING 101!!

[GM Reszel]

There's nothing wrong with buying the best of the best especially if you can afford it. My point is it will not make an average player sound any better (and there's legion that aren't good enough to know the difference).

[John_M]

no - but it can inspire the average player to play more, and before he (or she) knows it, they are better. I've seen guys tear up a Jay Turser. Sounds great. And the guitar returns the favor by tearing up their hands with tiny scrapes from protruding fret ends and poor fret dressing.

[Baxtercat]

GM Reszel....oh yeah!
Every night someone comes up and says "Wow, what on earth kind of pickups do you have in there?" .....like that's the only thing that could've caused the sound, not me and my experience, operating this guitar, setting these dials!

[kidmandude]

I must suck? I have never been asked to what type of pick ups are in my guitar, although Todd Smalley from DTB asked me about my amp once?

[GM Reszel]

no - but it can inspire the average player to play more, and before he (or she) knows it, they are better. I've seen guys tear up a Jay Turser. Sounds great. And the guitar returns the favor by tearing up their hands with tiny scrapes from protruding fret ends and poor fret dressing.

That's not the same thing - protruding fret ends are easy to fix. Along with knowing how to drive your car it's good to know simple things like changing a wiper.

We're talking about a mindset that says the expensive equipment is worth the difference and many times the difference would just be the guy learning how to play.

I do agree with the thinking that better equipment can inspire you to play. Don't go overboard though - find a decent setup and stick with it.

[John_M]

OK - then Gibson in the early 90's would be a good example. They were heading downhill until that Harvard guy bought them, jacked the prices, and created an air of "perceived value". (among other things I'm sure) It must be good because it's $3k. (I don't want to get into a pro or con Gibson thing here - I'm sure they're great guitars, but to me an Edwards is as good if not better, and cheaper - and my Yamaha Weddington kills them all :))

In the same vein, what's the difference between Warmoth and Valley Arts (old pre Gibson) or Pensa Suhr or Schecter - to my knowledge, those were all assembled from Warmoth (or then Boogie Bodies) parts. The "magic" theoretically came in when Suhr and Charvel and the like all bolted them up and set them up. Now, I don't particularly believe that, hence why most of my collection is partsocasters. The only thing lacking is a really good fret level and crown from a real pro - beyond my novice attempts.

The next step in this is does the same player sound as good thru anything. I think the answer is "almost" - do you like Clapton's tone now, or back in the Beano days? Do VH records now sound as good as VH1? Did Fair Warning sound as good as VH1 (variac/loadbox vs none)? Did ANYTHING sound as good as VH1 (sorry, but I started playing in '85)

Man - I was all over the place there - great topic! :messedup

[Baxtercat]

Johnny Law Band? You are hot!
And so is that cool website!

[OlAndrew]

I think its a lot like tinkering on my Hog. Deep down somewhere, I know it doesn't make that much difference, (850 lbs of obsolete ironmongery be fast? I'm smarter than that.) but I enjoy doing it. Even the chrome and the 'vintage look' stuff.

There's a low end, where tuners don't tune and truss rods don't, but once you get above that, ROI gets a tad slim, I think. My GFS stuff and Xavieres aren't as good as Name brands, but they're not that bad either.

If I was recording, that would be another thing....little things stand out in a recording, and you have to hear them forever. For jamming with a few buddies or if I ever get good enough to play in a bar, it all sound just great.

I do agree with the inspiration idea, though. When I was first starting out, back in the early 60s, I gave up for awhile, 'cause my Horrible Harmony Hollywood was so hard to play and sounded so bad when I did. Nowdays, I know I'd enjoy playing more if my Epiphone didn't have its little problems. I'm still trying to decide whether its worth the really large increment in price to get something signficantly better, though. We'll see.

[kidmandude]

Johnny Law Band? You are hot!
And so is that cool website!

ah shucks!! :aok

[RussB]

Why do some folks buy a top-of-the line Mercedes Benz/BMW/Lexus or whatever...

A Chevy Malibu will still get you there

The more money you have, the more money you'll spend. Is it really such a tough concept to grasp?

[kidmandude]

Why do some folks buy a top-of-the line Mercedes Benz/BMW/Lexus or whatever...

A Chevy Malibu will still get you there

The more money you have, the more money you'll spend. Is it really such a tough concept to grasp?

a "subtle" difference is by no means close to that comparison reference?

[57tele]

That's not the same thing - protruding fret ends are easy to fix. Along with knowing how to drive your car it's good to know simple things like changing a wiper.

We're talking about a mindset that says the expensive equipment is worth the difference and many times the difference would just be the guy learning how to play.

I do agree with the thinking that better equipment can inspire you to play. Don't go overboard though - find a decent setup and stick with it.

What about the guys who basically get their high end stuff comped, or for whom their entire professional budget is devoted to sounding good? Clearly money is not the primary consideration, or maybe not even a consideration at all. Sound is. Lindley, Cooder, Mayer, etc....