Progression Roman Numerails

[jcarpenter]

My theory I knowledge is a little hazy could somebody help me review.

Major Key Progression: I, ii, iii, IV, V ,vi, vii*, VIII/(I) Correct?

Nat. Minor: i, ii, ....

Harm. Minor:

Melodic Minor:

Help? I can't remember, too lazy to use my ear and try to figure it out myself.

[derekd]

Yes, you are correct about the Roman Numerals for major scale, though you left off vii.

[jcarpenter]

Sorry became trigger happy with i! I made the edit. Any help with the minor progs.?

[derekd]

Oh, sorry didn't realize you wanted that too, not enough coffee this am. Here you go.

Natural minor is same relationships as major scale, just reordered.

Harmonic Minor: i (maj7), iib5, III maj7#5, iv7, V7, VI maj7, vii dim7

Melodic Minor: i (maj7), ii7, III maj7#5, IV7, V7, vib5, vii dim7

[jcarpenter]

Natural Minor = Major reordered?

You mean start with the vi as the tonic (Aeolin) and pretend its the i from that spot?

i, ii, III, iv, v, vi, VII, i

Correct??

[henry_the_horse]

Natural major: I, ii, iii, IV, V7, vi, viiø.
Natural minor: i, iiø, III, iv, v, VI, VII7.
Harmonic minor: imaj7, iiø, IIImaj7(#5), iv, V7b9, VI, viiº.
Bachian minor (Jazz melodic minor): imaj7, ii, IIImaj7(#5), IV7#11, V7b13, viø, viiø.

[derekd]

Natural major: I, ii, iii, IV, V7, vi, viiø.
Natural minor: i, iiø, III, iv, v, VI, VII7.
Harmonic minor: imaj7, iiø, IIImaj7(#5), iv, V7b9, VI, viiº.
Bachian minor (Jazz melodic minor): imaj7, ii, IIImaj7(#5), IV7#11, V7b13, viø, viiø.

Never hear the jazz version of melodic minor referred to as "Bachian Minor". A reference to heir Bach I assume?

[Bryan T]

Natural Minor = Major reordered?

You mean start with the vi as the tonic (Aeolin) and pretend its the i from that spot?

i, ii, III, iv, v, vi, VII, i

Correct??

Not quite. The second chord is diminished. The third, sixth, and seventh chords are major. I also usually give them a 'b' in front to indicate how their root is different than a major scale. bIII, bVI, and bVII.

With minor keys it is important to keep in mind that you'll borrow from the different minor scales. Making the v chord in to V (or V7) or making the iv chord into IV, for example.

Bryan

[jcarpenter]

Is it possible to play a i maj7th instead of I maj7th? Lower case numeral means minor chord right?

Also does the zero without the slash mean play augmented?

Bare with me I am not totally in the dark but I am a little confused.:dunno

Sometimes I know theory can get messy like using a double sharp or calling a B note a Cb? Theory gets weird sometimes and I know there are exceptions and more than one way to define the same technique.

Is that for real or a typo.

Thanks you have been a great help.

[Bryan T]

Is it possible to play a i maj7th instead of I maj7th? Lower case numeral means minor chord right?

That would be a 'minor major 7th' chord. An example would be A C E G#.

Also does the zero without the slash mean play augmented?

A plus sign (+) is usually an augmented chord. The "zero with a slash" is a half-diminished chord, also called a min7b5. Root, minor third, flat 5, minor 7.

[derekd]

Is it possible to play a i maj7th instead of I maj7th? Lower case numeral means minor chord right?

Also does the zero without the slash mean play augmented?

Bare with me I am not totally in the dark but I am a little confused.:dunno

Sometimes I know theory can get messy like using a double sharp or calling a B note a Cb? Theory gets weird sometimes and I know there are exceptions and more than one way to define the same technique.

Is that for real or a typo.

Thanks you have been a great help.

Bryan is correct. Minor major7 chords are way cool and can be substituted for other minor chords. A case of modal transferance.

[henry_the_horse]

Never hear the jazz version of melodic minor referred to as "Bachian Minor". A reference to heir Bach I assume?
Yes, it is called Bachian minor because of its common use by J.S. Bach in his chorals.

Is it possible to play a i maj7th instead of I maj7th? Lower case numeral means minor chord right?

Also does the zero without the slash mean play augmented? [...] Is that for real or a typo.
It is not possible to play imaj7 instead of Imaj7 unless you are modulating to -or borrowing the chord from- another key.
I (uppercase Roman numeral) = major chord with major 7th.
i (lowercase Roman numeral) = minor chord with minor 7th.
V7 (uppercase Roman numeral and a 7 sufix) = dominant 7th. Fifth degree of the major scale.
º, º7, dim or dim7 = diminished, i.e. a chord with minor 3rd, diminished 5th and diminished 7th. Seventh degree of the harmonic minor scale.
ø or m7b5 = half-diminished, i.e. a chord with minor 3rd, diminished 5th and minor 7th.
+, aug, aug5 or #5 = augmented, i.e. a chord with major 3rd and augmented 5th.
7#11 = dominant 7th with augmented 4th. Fourth degree of the Bachian minor (jazz melodic minor) scale.
7b13 = dominant 7th with minor 6th. Fifth degree of the Bachian minor scale.
7b9 = dominant 7th chord with minor 9th. Fifth degree of the harmonic minor scale.

[jcarpenter]

Thanks guys I got some studying to do. Working with moving a ii m7, V7, and a Imaj7 progression and moving in fourths the old bead glass cuts fine trick. It's slow going but I am trying to master that. Also like subing a G dim chord for the IV(c) cord in the key of Gmajor.

Am I right on these? I am training me ear to hear these but I am not used to it hopefully I am doing this correctly.

[stevel]

My theory I knowledge is a little hazy could somebody help me review.

Major Key Progression: I, ii, iii, IV, V ,vi, vii*, VIII/(I) Correct?

Nat. Minor: i, ii, ....

Harm. Minor:

Melodic Minor:

Help? I can't remember, too lazy to use my ear and try to figure it out myself.

Ok, let's do this correctly:

Major KEYS:

I ii iii IV V vi viio

Upper case for Major, lower case for minor, "o" for diminished (with LC).

Some RN do not use the UC/LC system (Schoenberg, Walter Piston, Aldwell/Schachter, etc.) so in those it's just I II III IV V VI VII and you're expected to know the quality of the chord.

Minor KEYS:

i iio III iv V VI viio

There are not "harmonic" and "melodic" minor keys, thus chords do not "come from" them. What we do is make alterations to chords (harmonic) and melodies (melodic) in the music that causes the qualities of some chords to change.

Most commonly, V and viio are used in minor, rather than the diatonic "v" and bVII.

So these changes create the following common chord quality changes in minor:
iv is sometimes IV
V is sometimes (rarely) v
viio is sometimes bVII (though usually acting as a V/III).

When you start building chords out of scales or modes, you can use the same nomenclature.

So if you want to take Harmonic Minor as a stand-alone scale (as many do), it would be:

i iio III+ iv V VI viio

And the *ascending form of melodic minor* as a stand-alone scale:

i ii III+ IV V #vio viio

By the way, in academic textbooks, viio is considered "normal" in minor keys, so the fact that it's built on raised 7 is not shown (i.e. #viio).

So "non-dominant" VII is shown as "bVII" because it's built on lowered scale degree 7 (that's diatonic, but less common).

In Pop Music Theory, a hybridized system is evolving (or is that devolving?) that basically uses a "major central" system. Fortunately, most have adopted the UC/LC system, but not all have.

In "a key" (versus in Major or minor):

In C:
Cm - i
CM - I
Do - iio
Dm - ii
DM - II (as opposed to the functional V/V)
Eb - bIII
Em - iii
Fm - iv
F - IV
Gm - v
G - V
AbM- bVI
Am - vi
BbM - bVII
Bo - viio

If one allows "scale building" of chords, then things like III+ can be said to "come from" Harmonic Minor.

So in a sense, this is "genericizing" the system originally designed for *analysis* into the additional role of being a "playback tool".

So the system is basically this:

RN represents the scale degree, as related to the tonic, on which the chord is built.

UC/LC plus the addition of o and + (and 7, 9, etc.) where necessary represent the quality of the chord.

In C (notice I didn't say major or minor), a Db chord would be:

bII

In C, a Dbm chord would be:

bii

But, historically, only certain numerals were used which appeard in actual music.

Thus, C Eb G B is not a chord that appears in classical music, so there's no name for it (it is a chord with some non-chord tone included).

But it is a chord that appears in Jazz, and if we desire to use the same system, we can use the same principles and call it CmM7, and in C, that would be iM7 (M and 7 superscript).

So there are at least 3 major systems - you should be familiar with all three because often people are talking about the same thing, but using different nomenclature.

HTH,
Steve

[stevel]

Is it possible to play a i maj7th instead of I maj7th? Lower case numeral means minor chord right?



You can play anything you want! Music is Art!

In traditional (Common Practice Period) music, composers never built a minor chord with a major 7th on the Tonic scale degree. To Im7 in Major, and i7 in minor are the only possibilities.

In C:

C E G B = IM7
C Eb G Bb = i7

If you encounter:
C E G Bb, that's V7/IV in major, and V7/iv in minor.

If you encounter:

C Eb G B

It's not classical music, it's something post-romantic period (Jazz, Pop, etc.)

But, in attempts to be respected by the academic community, many analysts started applying the principles of RN nomenclature to "non-traditional sonorities" where possible.

So in C (it becomes useless to talk about major and minor for a chord that doesn't exist in either major or minor):

C Eb G B - iM7

Steve

[stevel]

Natural major: I, ii, iii, IV, V7, vi, viiø.
Natural minor: i, iiø, III, iv, v, VI, VII7.
Harmonic minor: imaj7, iiø, IIImaj7(#5), iv, V7b9, VI, viiº.
Bachian minor (Jazz melodic minor): imaj7, ii, IIImaj7(#5), IV7#11, V7b13, viø, viiø.

You can always spot a Jazz player by the addition of a 7th (or worse!) to their chords
:hide

Major TRIADS:
I ii iii IV V vi viio

Major SEVENTH CHORDS:
IM7 ii7 iii7 IVM7 V7 vi7 vii%7

note: in academic texts, since "X7" means a Dominant-type 7th chords, Major 7th chords have the added "M". Also, I use % for half-diminished (m7b5) for convenience.

Minor TRIADS:

i iio III iv (IV) V (v) VI viio (bVII)

Minor SEVENTH CHORDS:

i7 ii%7 IIIM7 iv7 (IV7) V7 (v7) VIM7 #vi%7 viio7 (bVII7)

Again, "allowing" that chords can be built from Harmonic minor *scales* or melodic minor, etc., other things are possible.

For example, III+ in minor, like iM7 (or sometimes, imM7) can be created using diatonic notes, but using #7 instead of diatonic 7 (diatonic in this case meaning belonging to the key signature, not the scale).

But neither of these are found in traditional CPP music, thus contemporary names for them were devised using the same basic principles as the others.

A funny one that IS common in Bach is #vi%7 - in C minor that would be A-C-Eb-G. It's a half-diminished (m7b5) chord built on the raised 6th scale degree (from melodic minor if you like) but not something you hear commonly in many other styles (or even contemporary works).

Steve