If you played half the notes, you'd be twice the guitar player

[kenoflife]

"If you played half the notes, you'd be twice the guitar player"

man! -

A bass player told me that before a gig last summer, after listening
to a practice tape. As a result I took out a Sharpie and wrote the
4 letters "L E S S" on my 4 left fingers so I could see them as I
played a solo. Best recorded live performance ever.


Easy to forget sometimes.

[bostonwal]

i don't think there's a "less" or "more" issue ever. It's more "are you saying something worth listening to." that can come fast or slow.

[funkycam]

I believe the correct response was "shut up or you're fired, bass monkey"

[Flyin' Brian]

Very true. Space counts more than notes.
A bunch if notes in a flurry or phrase is cool, but a continuous 12 or more bars of 16ths or 32nd is just noise.

[Swain]

But, which half?

[Clifford-D]

Yes, trackable, singable melodies that breathe.

lean, no filler, hanging in air tapastries.

Reflection of what was or what will be.

- plus strings will last longer eh?

[bkd_guitarist]

A very wise and experienced studio engineer had that talk with me when I was about 20. Completely changed the way I play guitar. Melodies, not masturbation.

[kenoflife]

Yes, trackable, singable melodies that breathe.

lean, no filler, hanging in air tapastries.

Reflection of what was or what will be.




I like that

[9fingers]

Yes, trackable, singable melodies that breathe.

lean, no filler, hanging in air tapastries.

Reflection of what was or what will be.

- plus strings will last longer eh?

As well put as I have seen! Gracias!

John Lee Hooker once told a young hot shot-"You're pretty good, now cut the number of notes you play in half. Then cut that number in half again and you'll be getting close."

[Lucidology]

Talk about someone with a control complex ...
Wouldn't want to be in a band with any stinkingly opinionated bass player-control freak-such as that ...

[kenoflife]

he wasn't in the normal band, just sat it for that gig
and actually -
when I look at it -
his words were helpful - though 'once was enough'

[suckamc]

Yes, we should all do our part to homogenize things.

[guitarist58]

Very true. Space counts more than notes.
A bunch if notes in a flurry or phrase is cool, but a continuous 12 or more bars of 16ths or 32nd is just noise.

I do agree...

“Music is the space between the notes” – Claude Debussy


OTOH:
I believe the correct response was "shut up or you're fired, bass monkey"

:rotflmao

[Birddog]

"And if you played half the notes you play CORRECTLY, I might listen to you."

heh heh.

[buddastrat]

If you follow his thinking, then if you play 1/100 of the notes, you'd be 200x the player....or if you play even less..what was he really tryin' to say?!

Just kiddin'.

[strat a various]

Avoid the wrong notes. Everything left over is right.

[MikeMcK]

Too true... people who are listening don't care about anything other than whether or not something "sounds cool". If you believe (as I try to) that you're playing for the non-musicians in the room, less is more, most of the time.

If I needed a reminder of that, I got it last night. I found a new open jam, and around these parts the jams have been getting very good lately... good enough to draw more "audience members" than players. Anyway, I found myself up with "Chuck".

I recently paid $15 for me and my date to see Chuck, so I was a little intimidated and knew that when Chuck was up, he took all the solos. Except this time... In the middle of a smoky-slow bluesy tune he had to step to the side to tune up.

That left me... in the spirit of the song and in deference to Chuck I for once closed my eyes, forgot about the other guitarists in the room and tried to channel BB King and Amos Garrett... very minimal note count. The reaction from the folks in the room was incredibly positive.

Most importantly, when everyone went home, Chuck didn't have the phone number of the most desirable woman in the bar...but I did.

[decay-o-caster]

Play less isn't always the right advice. But sometimes it is. Maybe this was one of those sometimes, hmm? Or maybe not - none of us was there, so we can't really judge that the guy was right or wrong in this case.

I've heard players who needed to play less (IMHO, YMMV, etc.) - not just because "good" music doesn't have lots of notes (which I don't necessarily believe), but because they were just running 32nd note scales with no musical intelligence behind it for minutes at a time. In that case, yes, play less and play something that means something to you. But if you have something to say and it needs a lot of playing, then play that. I'd never tell DiMeola that "Tales From the Black Forest" isn't music! :)

[blhm84]

Slowing down is good...but focusing on playing slower and more melodically will sometimes get you in the opposite trouble, that is, your playing will sound slow and ponderous when it doesn't need to be.

The real key (in my opinion) is not to focus on playing fast and playing slow in general, rather, it is knowing WHEN to play fast and when to play slow. Some songs require speed during improvisation to gain the needed energy required. Sometimes even during a slow tune a fast run is great.

[MikeMcK]

I agree... my posts two posts up was definitely one of those times. My point was that for me at least, a roomful of guitarists makes me want to stick with tried-and-true, but flashy licks, sometimes at the expense of the mood.

[JonR]

A very wise and experienced studio engineer had that talk with me when I was about 20. Completely changed the way I play guitar. Melodies, not masturbation.Yeah, well you really shouldn't have been doing that in the studio, now should you?
:D

[kenoflife]

Getting back to my original post - I KNOW its an important thing for me to remember - and yet I forget - guess I didn't have it ingrained in my head when I was 20. Now I'm in my 40s and how to teach this dog to remember?

I sincerely think maybe the best thing I can do until I'm 'trained' might be to get out that Sharpie again and write the 4 Letters upside-down on my left fingernails the way I did that night "L" "E" "S" "S"...for then as soon as I start up that solo - there it is, making me laugh at myself and at least consider I have the option to slow down fast.

[Chris_F]

Getting back to my original post - I KNOW its an important thing for me to remember - and yet I forget - guess I didn't have it ingrained in my head when I was 20. Now I'm in my 40s and how to teach this dog to remember?

I sincerely think maybe the best thing I can do until I'm 'trained' might be to get out that Sharpie again and write the 4 Letters upside-down on my left fingernails the way I did that night "L" "E" "S" "S"...for then as soon as I start up that solo - there it is, making me laugh at myself and at least consider I have the option to slow down fast.

The best advice I've ever gotten regarding this concept is as follows:

Sing every note you play when you're improvising. You'll become intimately aware of what you're playing, and you'll occasionally have to stop playing in order to breathe. It'll force you to create phrases, because you'll want to at least have "finished a sentence" when you need to inhale oxygen.

I've been playing twenty years, and only started doing this a year or so ago, and it's the single most important thing I've ever learned (YMMV) in terms of improvisation.

This is something that should be drubbed into every first year music student, and I cannot believe I had to wait twenty years to learn this from Herb Ellis on youtube.

[bkd_guitarist]

Yeah, well you really shouldn't have been doing that in the studio, now should you?
:D

He made me take the sex toys outside too. :(

[Gigbag]

I've been playing twenty years, and only started doing this a year or so ago, and it's the single most important thing I've ever learned (YMMV) in terms of improvisation.

Can you teach me the Yngwie Malmsteen Melodious Velocity method that you learned? Is it the best of both worlds?

[ScottB]

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (Tom Hulce) - So then, you liked it? You really liked it, sire?
Emperor Joseph II (Jeffrey Jones) - Well, of course I did! It's very good! Of course, now and then...just now and then...it seemed a touch...
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (Tom Hulce) - What do you mean, sire?
Emperor Joseph II (Jeffrey Jones) - Well, I mean, occasionally, it seems to have...How shall one say?
(pause)
How shall one say, Herr Director?
Count Orsini-Rosenberg (Charles Kay) - Too many notes, your Majesty?
Emperor Joseph II (Jeffrey Jones) - Exactly. Very well put. Too many notes.
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (Tom Hulce) - l don't understand. There are just as many notes as I required, neither more nor less.
Emperor Joseph II (Jeffrey Jones) - My dear fellow, there are in fact...only so many notes the ear can hear in an evening. I think I' m right in saying that, aren't I, court composer?
Antonio Salieri (F. Murray Abraham) - Yes. On the whole, yes, Majesty.
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (Tom Hulce) - This is absurd!
Emperor Joseph II (Jeffrey Jones) - Young man, don't take it too hard . Your work is ingenious. It's quality work. And there are simply too many notes. Just cut a few and it'll be perfect.
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (Tom Hulce) - Which few did you have in mind?

[buddastrat]

Now that's funny Gigbag!

Sorry guys without smokin' sweet solos like Cliffs of Dover, Eruption or Yngwie licks I wouldn't have come to know this wonderful friend that has been there through the thick and thin with me. If it moves you, it's good.

[Ang3lus]

just remember music is the same as any language and you'll be fine.

timing/space is like punctuation, extremely important, if you don't use it, everything is a big mess.

I also think of a major scale played over a blues sounds sweet (like saying some nice things to a girl)
and pentatonic being very aloof (being very to the point and making a big statement).

i use it accordingly.

[JonR]

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (Tom Hulce) - So then, you liked it? You really liked it, sire?
Emperor Joseph II (Jeffrey Jones) - Well, of course I did! It's very good! Of course, now and then...just now and then...it seemed a touch...
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (Tom Hulce) - What do you mean, sire?
Emperor Joseph II (Jeffrey Jones) - Well, I mean, occasionally, it seems to have...How shall one say?
(pause)
How shall one say, Herr Director?
Count Orsini-Rosenberg (Charles Kay) - Too many notes, your Majesty?
Emperor Joseph II (Jeffrey Jones) - Exactly. Very well put. Too many notes.
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (Tom Hulce) - l don't understand. There are just as many notes as I required, neither more nor less.
Emperor Joseph II (Jeffrey Jones) - My dear fellow, there are in fact...only so many notes the ear can hear in an evening. I think I' m right in saying that, aren't I, court composer?
Antonio Salieri (F. Murray Abraham) - Yes. On the whole, yes, Majesty.
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (Tom Hulce) - This is absurd!
Emperor Joseph II (Jeffrey Jones) - Young man, don't take it too hard . Your work is ingenious. It's quality work. And there are simply too many notes. Just cut a few and it'll be perfect.
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (Tom Hulce) - Which few did you have in mind?Emperor Joe was right, dammit!
It doesn't matter how great the notes are, you can have too many.
That Mozart always was a show-off. As Miles Davis might have said to him: "take your f***** hands off the keyboard!"

[ivers]

Some of my favorite guitarists are very 'notey', like Raphael Rabello, Yamandu Costa, Vicente Amigo, and perhaps my favorite musician today, (mandolin player) Hamilton de Holanda, but I think these guys play notes that express something..that's the crucial thing for me, do you have something to say? How should it be said? How is you best expressed? Slow/fast/aggresive/mellow/etc? And only the individual can find what's true for them.

As for Miles, he hired very 'notey' guys to his band, so I don't think he really can be used to promote the less is more thing, as such. But sure, sometimes it's a good idea to just quit making sound and let the music breathe, no matter if you're a slow player or a fast player in the approach.

As for breaks in the music, meaning shorter phrasing, not long lines, I think this comes naturally if you approach the music very rhythmically, you don't need to sing or think like a horn player at all.

[dead of night]

I remember reading an interview with Mick Ronson about the solos on the album Ziggy Stardust. He said Bowie "sang" the solos for Ronson to play.

[SyKrash]

I guess John Coltrane is half the sax player.

[guitbeef]

(Not a politically correct example in this day and age , but it's the first scenario I can imagine)...

So, you're 7 years of age and you opened the gas cap on the lawnmower and poured sand in the tank. You're dad goes to mow the grass and realizes what you did. He grabs you and in true old-school fashion and proceeds to spank you. He says one word with each swat on the ass (imagine the tempo of that)- "NEVER" (thwack)- "NEVER" (thwack)- "DO" (thwack)- "THAT" (thwack)- "AGAIN!" (thwack).

Now imagine you're hanging at a table in a restaraunt with your buddies, and one sitting next to you slightly stands up to reach across the table to grab the ketchup. When he rises the front two legs of the chair rise up also. He sits back down and one foot of the chair comes down on top of your foot and he proceeds to unknowingly put his weight down right on top of the foot. You scream out loud and fast (imagine the tempo of this)- "OUCHOUCHGETOFFGETOFFMYFOOTYOUMORONOWWWOWWGETUPGETU P!".

One outburst is slow, one is fast- both in and of themselves seem valid to me- why wouldn't they? I just don't think I want anyone to talk to me in either style all the time. To me it's context, and intention and the "feeling" behind it, fast or slow.

[Drumongus]

As Miles Davis might have said to him: "take your f***** hands off the keyboard!"


funny. Miles once talked to coltrane about how he could better play his instrument and coltrane said "take the F****** horn out of your mouth."

implying miles was overplaying and not giving the band enough room.

[Lucidology]

U guys are all full of it ... :-)

Full of what I'm not sure ...

[Julia343]

But listening to a 60 second solo of 32nd notes blazing constantly at a quarter note = 100 without any pause or break is very inspiring.... to click the stop button after about 15 seconds. It kind of sounds like a fly trying to get out a window, but fortunately even the fly has to light so you have time enough to smack it.

[dlguitar64]

funny. Miles once talked to coltrane about how he could better play his instrument and coltrane said "take the F****** horn out of your mouth."

implying miles was overplaying and not giving the band enough room.
You have it all wrong.

The story is Miles asked Coltrane why he played so long-he said he
didn't know how to stop-Miles said Why don't you take the horn out of your mouth?

[kimock]

But listening to a 60 second solo of 32nd notes blazing constantly at a quarter note = 100 without any pause or break is very inspiring.... to click the stop button after about 15 seconds. It kind of sounds like a fly trying to get out a window, but fortunately even the fly has to light so you have time enough to smack it.

Julia, did you ever check out Coltrane's record Interstellar Space?
I don't usually go for the high rate of information stuff, but there are some passages on that record where Coltrane literally plays faster than you can hear.
You're listening, and it makes total sense, and then you realize he's way out ahead of you, you're listening from behind, and it still makes sense.
Never heard anything quite like it.

Otherwise, yeah.

peace

[decay-o-caster]

There are people who can play a jillion notes fast and say something, and then there are people who play fast but don't say anything with any of the notes they play. I'm not one of those guys who thinks everyone should slow down. There are some fast players who knock me out - chrissakes, I just got back from a Twang workshop where the instructor and John Jorgenson played *way* fast and made it meaningful. And scary.

But I think everyone hear has heard the guy who plays 10,000 notes and it's a yawn. THAT'S the guy who would be twice the player if he played half as many notes. It's not universal - it's local. And I think the OP took it to heart because he was that guy before getting the wake up call.

Or not - WTF do I know?

[splatt]

i don't care about being "twice the guitar player".
i don't care about being "half the guitar player".
hell, i'm not sure i care about being "the guitar player", at all.

i do love playing & writing music, though,
and in that regard:
i'll make my own damn decisions, thanks very much.

i mean: come on.
life is complex, humans are complex.....
a little latitude & generosity for that can go a long way;
it might even serve to help fuel yer own musical "journey".

in any case:
clearly, people are free to play useless crud at any speed,
as we have done so, we do so & we likely will do so.

dt / spltrcl

[Serious Poo]

The best advice I've ever gotten regarding this concept is as follows:

Sing every note you play when you're improvising. You'll become intimately aware of what you're playing, and you'll occasionally have to stop playing in order to breathe. It'll force you to create phrases, because you'll want to at least have "finished a sentence" when you need to inhale oxygen.

I've been playing twenty years, and only started doing this a year or so ago, and it's the single most important thing I've ever learned (YMMV) in terms of improvisation.

This is something that should be drubbed into every first year music student, and I cannot believe I had to wait twenty years to learn this from Herb Ellis on youtube.

+1

Phil Keaggy taught me that a long time ago and it's one of the most valuable things I've ever done to improve my playing.

[Lucidology]

i don't care about being "twice the guitar player".
i don't care about being "half the guitar player".
hell, i'm not sure i care about being "the guitar player", at all.

i do love playing & writing music, though,
and in that regard:
i'll make my own damn decisions, thanks very much.

i mean: come on.
life is complex, humans are complex.....
a little latitude & generosity for that can go a long way;
it might even serve to help fuel yer own musical "journey".

in any case:
clearly, people are free to play useless crud at any speed,
as we have done so, we do so & we likely will do so.

dt / spltrcl

Well said David ...
Useless Crud comes with da package ...

[decay-o-caster]

i don't care about being "twice the guitar player".
i don't care about being "half the guitar player".
hell, i'm not sure i care about being "the guitar player", at all.

i do love playing & writing music, though,
and in that regard:
i'll make my own damn decisions, thanks very much.

i mean: come on.
life is complex, humans are complex.....
a little latitude & generosity for that can go a long way;
it might even serve to help fuel yer own musical "journey".

in any case:
clearly, people are free to play useless crud at any speed,
as we have done so, we do so & we likely will do so.

dt / spltrcl

David - are you saying that people can't benefit from informed and intelligent criticism? In my own case, I know that having an editor helps me as a writer, photographer, and heck - even as a musician.

I reserve the right to continue down the road I'm on, and I reserve the right to determine that a particular critic/editor/teacher is *wrong* for me or *wrong* about this particular case. But sometimes they are right, and it is often valuable for me to hear their assessments of what I'm doing either way.

You as a producer must make assessments of performances and I imagine you provide suggestions for different approaches to a performance that a musician might take. I know you wouldn't tell Coltrane to play fewer notes, nor Jerry Garcia to play more. But you must give pointers towards more interesting ways to construct a song or performance, no?

While the OP's critic wasn't a producer of his music, nor was s/he a teacher, the criticism obviously hit the mark because the OP has remembered it to this day and has taken it to heart.

There are intolerant morons for whom music must fit inside this strait jacket of a definition, and yeah, screw 'em - they are only adding heat to the discourse, not light. But there are thoughtful critics for whom this performance or this approach to a song just isn't working. And I think letting the person know why it isn't working for you adds value, regardless of whether they choose to take you up on the suggestions or not.

I'm not attacking or disputing here - I'm just trying to understand your position.

[Luke]

Some of us are lead so easily.

[buddastrat]

i don't care about being "twice the guitar player".
i don't care about being "half the guitar player".
hell, i'm not sure i care about being "the guitar player", at all.

i do love playing & writing music, though,
and in that regard:
i'll make my own damn decisions, thanks very much.

i mean: come on.
life is complex, humans are complex.....
a little latitude & generosity for that can go a long way;
it might even serve to help fuel yer own musical "journey".

in any case:
clearly, people are free to play useless crud at any speed,
as we have done so, we do so & we likely will do so.

dt / spltrcl


awesome post. It is just guitar after all. Do what you want and f'em.

Worst than anything is somebody trying to be something they're not.

[strat a various]

John McLaughlin plays twice as many notes as anybody. He's a GREAT player. He eats that bass player for a snack and s**ts him out later. I'm frankly sick of neat little cliches that pass as bits of wisdom. They are bits of B.S.
We read letters on a page by seeing the white paper around the black ink. We're reading the blank. That's a fact. You could make the analogy that notes have existence by virtue of being separated by silence, so we're hearing the space between the notes. That's nonsense.
If you are a good player, you may proceed to decide to play like Clapton ... one note every five seconds, or like Al Dimeola, one bajillion notes per second. Doesn't matter. If you think you are too busy, you are, but there are guys out there that do both, slow and meaningful, then fast and furious - Wes Montgomery, Pat Martino, etc.
These pearls of wisdom like "play half as much" are worse than inaccurate, they are misleading. A player may play half as many wrong notes and still be playing wrong notes. Yeah, that reduces the damage in total, but it's hardly constructive. I'd have told that bass player this: "If you talked half as much, you'd be 50% less annoying, so shut up ... who asked you?"
If you are insecure in your playing and want to improve, concentrate on the notes you're playing, the phrasing, the context, and forget platitudes. Simple rules are for simple minds. Music is like the totality of our experience and lives, varied, complex, surprising, and unexpected.

[MartinPiana]

You have it all wrong.

The story is Miles asked Coltrane why he played so long-he said he
didn't know how to stop-Miles said Why don't you take the horn out of your mouth?

This is the version I've heard too....

When you don't have anything to say, you can sometimes fool people by playing a lot of notes at a fast pace. When you have something to say, you need fewer notes.

[strat a various]

Two great players, one was a smartass, the other was John Coltrane.

Miles asked Chet Baker, "What do you think of the sound on my new record?"
Chet answered, "I could help you fix that."

[MartinPiana]

What's the difference between a blues guitarist and a jazz guitarist?

A blues guitarist plays three chords for a thousand people.
A jazz guitarist plays ...

[strat a various]

How do you make a rock guitarist turn down?
Put sheet music in front of him.

[Lucidology]

John McLaughlin plays twice as many notes as anybody. He's a GREAT player. He eats that bass player for a snack and s**ts him out later. I'm frankly sick of neat little cliches that pass as bits of wisdom. They are bits of B.S.
We read letters on a page by seeing the white paper around the black ink. We're reading the blank. That's a fact. You could make the analogy that notes have existence by virtue of being separated by silence, so we're hearing the space between the notes. That's nonsense.
If you are a good player, you may proceed to decide to play like Clapton ... one note every five seconds, or like Al Dimeola, one bajillion notes per second. Doesn't matter. If you think you are too busy, you are, but there are guys out there that do both, slow and meaningful, then fast and furious - Wes Montgomery, Pat Martino, etc.
These pearls of wisdom like "play half as much" are worse than inaccurate, they are misleading. A player may play half as many wrong notes and still be playing wrong notes. Yeah, that reduces the damage in total, but it's hardly constructive.

I'd have told that bass player this: "If you talked half as much, you'd be 50% less annoying, so shut up ... who asked you?"

If you are insecure in your playing and want to improve, concentrate on the notes you're playing, the phrasing, the context, and forget platitudes. Simple rules are for simple minds. Music is like the totality of our experience and lives, varied, complex, surprising, and unexpected.

BRAVO /// :agree/// very well said ... should be a Sticky ..

[RichardB]

John McLaughlin plays twice as many notes as anybody. He's a GREAT player. He eats that bass player for a snack and s**ts him out later. I'm frankly sick of neat little cliches that pass as bits of wisdom. They are bits of B.S.
We read letters on a page by seeing the white paper around the black ink. We're reading the blank. That's a fact. You could make the analogy that notes have existence by virtue of being separated by silence, so we're hearing the space between the notes. That's nonsense.
If you are a good player, you may proceed to decide to play like Clapton ... one note every five seconds, or like Al Dimeola, one bajillion notes per second. Doesn't matter. If you think you are too busy, you are, but there are guys out there that do both, slow and meaningful, then fast and furious - Wes Montgomery, Pat Martino, etc.
These pearls of wisdom like "play half as much" are worse than inaccurate, they are misleading. A player may play half as many wrong notes and still be playing wrong notes. Yeah, that reduces the damage in total, but it's hardly constructive. I'd have told that bass player this: "If you talked half as much, you'd be 50% less annoying, so shut up ... who asked you?"
If you are insecure in your playing and want to improve, concentrate on the notes you're playing, the phrasing, the context, and forget platitudes. Simple rules are for simple minds. Music is like the totality of our experience and lives, varied, complex, surprising, and unexpected.

Ok.

Firstly, McLaughlin's improvisations suffer HUGELY from him overplaying and having a weak sense of phrasing, so he is actually a great example of what NOT to do when constructing a solo.

The final fact which is applicable almost always is the ntion of VARIETY.

Variety in rhythms (including rests, of course). Variey in melodic note choice and variety in the harmonic sphere and variety in timbre/tone.

When I say VARIETY I mean this:

There is a continuum from "expected" or "inside" or "symmetrical" all the way to "unexpected", "outside" and "assymetrical". Most good music uses the entire continuum.
Sometimes a single "slice" of the continuum is deliberately focused on exclusively, but this is always for a desired effect, and can hardly be maintained for longer than a single piece.
Mostly the continuum is conditioned by the human need for rationality, repetition and a vocal-like approach.
So it ends up that music should have probably about 2/3's falling closer to the "expected" side, balanced by the remainder being in the "unexpected".

Musicians who deliberately flout these "ideas", end up w/ music that has very limited emotional reach and not much resonance beyond a cerebral appeal...

[Lucidology]

Richard the Bad strikes again... U is always good for a laugh my friend ..

What I wonder is ...how many folk here at TGP realize what a good player you is ...
because U is ...:-)

[RichardB]

So?

Doesn't make his dissing of legendary, brilliant and inspiring players any less goofy. Basically trolling, IMO.

Still think Wes "scuffles" on fast tunes, Richard?

:nuts

Haha ;-)

Jim,

Just 'cause you cant hear the things I refer to, doesn't make you a bad bloke, (it does makes you relatively "deaf", but that's another thread, another day) but that "crazy" gif at the end does make you rude. Bastard!!!

[kimock]

Richard the Bad strikes again... U is always good for a laugh my friend ..

What I wonder is ...how many folk here at TGP realize what a good player you is ...
because U is ...:-)

I'm one of those folks you don't need to wonder about.
Good player would be an understatement.

Hmmm . . .

[RichardB]

George?????? You mean when Kev Van Sant posted to RMMGJ as "George"?

You're probably getting mixed up w/ the other time when a friend of mine posted my "comic" vids to AAJ using my name...and I was accused of self-shilling...that thing still hurts/haunts me...

C'mon, I am only kiddin' with ya, anyway.
Don't we, like, have this comic repartee, where you bag me and I return the favour?

[jimfog]

Nevermind.......comments retracted.

No reason to get into this......it's just opinions.

Carry on.

[Austinrocks]

bringing back some bad memories,

my jazz teacher had me play, 1 note per minute, worked a week on that, and the variations, half notes, quarter notes, eigth notes, sixteenth notes, thirty second notes, the higher counts got easier, but I really hated that week of practice to show I could do it, he was happy at the lesson, so we worked on more fun stuff.


one of the drills that was really enlightening was to skip a beat in a 16 timing

1 eh and ah 2 eh and ah 3 eh and ah 4 ea and

..... eh and ah 2 eh and ah 3 eh and ah 4 ea and eh


pretty amazing when you do it for all 16 variations, worked on that one that week as well just so I would not have to spend more time on it.

[Drumongus]

The story is Miles asked Coltrane why he played so long-he said he
didn't know how to stop-Miles said Why don't you take the horn out of your mouth?



Ah, I knew someone was supposed to remove a horn. the details had obviously slipped my mind. Thanks for the mental update!


the last thing i need to do is take the guitar out of my hands. (then it would clearly get broken by the bassist)

[guitbeef]

Slowing down is good...but focusing on playing slower and more melodically will sometimes get you in the opposite trouble, that is, your playing will sound slow and ponderous when it doesn't need to be.

The real key (in my opinion) is not to focus on playing fast and playing slow in general, rather, it is knowing WHEN to play fast and when to play slow. Some songs require speed during improvisation to gain the needed energy required. Sometimes even during a slow tune a fast run is great.

I totally agree with this post. As far as speed=energy, I recall paul Gilbert saying in an interview that rock music in general by definition contained a certain energy and so why wouldn't fast, energetic playing go hand in hand with that? (I'm paraphrasing, of course).

And as far as the "fast run in a slow tune" statement, I think of Clifford Brown, particularly his recording of "Stardust" on the Clifford Brown with strings LP.


But then again, I still love to hear David Gilmour play well within the confines of his technique. And sometimes Thelonious letting a chord ring over a bop tune (where most guys would outline the changes with a single-note run) is totally effective for me.

[guitbeef]

I'm one of those folks you don't need to wonder about.
Good player would be an understatement.

Hmmm . . .

Me, too...

[ivers]

And as far as the "fast run in a slow tune" statement, I think of Clifford Brown, particularly his recording of "Stardust" on the Clifford Brown with strings LP.

Damn, I gotta dig that album out again, used to listen to it all the time when I was getting into jazz..

[JPF]

As I sense that we're not all in mutual agreement, I've taken the liberty of emailing John Petrucci, Gary Moore and Yngwie Malmsteen to ask them for a concensus. I'll report back once I've heard from them.

[Sunil]

Melodies, not masturbation.

Great to-the-point quote!

-- Sunil

[heretic]

:Devil...And then Amadeus said to the King "which notes should I take out?"

[strat a various]

Ok.

Firstly, McLaughlin's improvisations suffer HUGELY from him overplaying and having a weak sense of phrasing, so he is actually a great example of what NOT to do when constructing a solo.



John is not only a great swinging straight-ahead player, a soulful, bluesy jazz player, but the single most advanced and well grounded modal fusion and Indian/crossover guitarist alive. I don't need to defend him, since he plays nearly every other player into the ground with his feel, phrasing and technique. He's also a hell of a nice cat. While we're on the subject of informed opinions, I'll opine your foot is in you mouth, no offense intended. You may want to work up to "Inner Mounting Flame" by listening to John's work with Brian Auger, Miles Davis, or ever in the movie "'Round Midnight".

[HammyD]

The premise of this thread got me thinking. I remember reading that Miles said he judges a player based upon whether "...he can blow (project), and he has something to say." I also listened to some clips by Miles, Chet Baker, Paul Desmond, Charlie Christian and Wes. I love Desmond's liting, cascading style but I realized I preferred the phasing of Miles and Baker....

Then I listened to Christian and Wes and listening to their phrasing, something I had forgotten came to mind. Both Christian and Wes only used downstrokes. So I listened to something I recorded a few weeks ago and tried the same cut only using downstokes.

The result was apparent although it was terribly awkward at first. My solo's were more focused, more lyrical and I stopped falling into the old habit of trills and general wanking. It really made a difference.

I regained my speed but the all downstrokes had more punch and clarity..... I really learned something from a simple premise on an internet board! LOL

I do not know if this would be of help to anyone else, but I though I might mention it.

[strat a various]

Then I listened to Christian and Wes and listening to their phrasing, something I had forgotten came to mind. Both Christian and Wes only used downstrokes. So I listened to something I recorded a few weeks ago and tried the same cut only using downstokes.

The result was apparent although it was terribly awkward at first. My solo's were more focused, more lyrical and I stopped falling into the old habit of trills and general wanking. It really made a difference.

I regained my speed but the all downstrokes had more punch and clarity..... I really learned something from a simple premise on an internet board! LOL

I do not know if this would be of help to anyone else, but I though I might mention it.

Wes Montgomery used up and down strokes with his thumb. It's hard to see in videos, but if you're patient, you'll notice it. He does it on fast passages, so it's a blur, but he's going up and down. He used mostly down strokes on octaves, though some time up strokes even then. Slow and medium passages were down strokes.

[KRosser]

"If you're gonna tell me how to play, I need twice the money"

[HammyD]

Wes Montgomery used up and down strokes with his thumb. It's hard to see in videos, but if you're patient, you'll notice it. He does it on fast passages, so it's a blur, but he's going up and down. He used mostly down strokes on octaves, though some time up strokes even then. Slow and medium passages were down strokes.

Thanks for pointing that out Strat! I should have said "primarily" used downstrokes.

I also should have been more clear in suggesting that it wasn't necessarily the use of downstrokes, but rather doing something different that braks the cycle of long formed habits.

[mikem]

Yes, trackable, singable melodies that breathe.

lean, no filler, hanging in air tapastries.

Reflection of what was or what will be.

- plus strings will last longer eh?

That is a real art- the players I like best are all able to do this. It sounds like the easiest thing in the world, but why can't I do this more successfully?

Mike

[BeowulfKingsley]

Fast or slow, the thing is phrasing for me...and something I'll be working on the rest of my life. Finding that perfect unexpected phrase, be it in 3 notes or 50. I agree that singing your lines helps an immense amount (at least it sure helps ME) and has the added benefit of helping your vocal skills. Can't hurtcha. And if you like playing really fast, well, then you'll be developing the vocal chops of someone like John Hendricks, which couldn't hurt either.

[Lucidology]

"If you're gonna tell me how to play, I need twice the money"

Yo .... no words speak the truth as well as these ...:aok

[rockstarjay]

But then again, I still love to hear David Gilmour play well within the confines of his technique.

"within the confines of his technique" Are you joking? Just because someone doesn't do something in a particular situation doesn't mean they can't. Gilmour is a true master.

Technically and artistically.

What more could you want out of him? Rote 3 note per string practice patterns on III-VI-II-V's? Mindless Sweep picked arpeggios with 4 short digital delay pedals? Or whatever else is popular on You Tube?

[Clifford-D]

ebb and tide

hill and valley
a surfer riding the crest of the wave

the idea of less notes becomes an opportunity to expand the
lyrical content, the human voice quality in the playing.
It's story telling in song form.

I was personally influenced by the great Madaline Kahn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO_YDHxJQ70

[decay-o-caster]

ebb and tide

hill and valley
a surfer riding the crest of the wave

the idea of less notes becomes an opportunity to expand the
lyrical content, the human voice quality in the playing.
It's story telling in song form.

I was personally influenced by the great Madaline Kahn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO_YDHxJQ70

Nor can we forget...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZnzYaboUkY&feature=related

[Clifford-D]

She's singing in her low voice, very funny

But her higher voice was really very beautiful with lots of control
She reminds me of Jeff Beck

you think I'm joking huh?

And to end this Kahnathon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZybFl_pfMk&feature=related

she was good wasn't she?

[guitbeef]

"within the confines of his technique" Are you joking? Just because someone doesn't do something in a particular situation doesn't mean they can't. Gilmour is a true master.

Technically and artistically.

What more could you want out of him? Rote 3 note per string practice patterns on III-VI-II-V's? Mindless Sweep picked arpeggios with 4 short digital delay pedals? Or whatever else is popular on You Tube?

No, not joking at all, and I feel I'm free to expect even "Giant Steps", "Little Rock Getaway" or "I Am A Viking" out of a boring hack like Gilmour...


Just kidding- actually what you said is what I meant. I guess what I wrote reads like "Gilmour has limited technique" but I didn't mean that at all. I was actually giving him credit for a always making a musical statement and not merely trying to play at the "top of his abilities" for technique's sake. I know what a monster Gilmour is, and FWIW I'd rather hear him drop his guitar than hear a lot of folks try to play theirs, so no offense intended.

Also FWIW I couldn't give a flying rat's ass about what's popular on Youtube.

[Baminated]

using that logic in the OP to it's fullest conclusion, that would mean that J.S. Bach, Chopin, Coltrane, Rakmaninoff <sic> or Paganinni <sic> should have greatly reduced the number of notes in their pieces and solos in order to be "twice as good" as before.

Sorry, but that quote from the bassist is just some general type of mantra, with no real constructive criticism or critique w/ tangible points backing it up.

[Clifford-D]

Originally Posted by decay-o-caster http://img.thegearpage.net/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=6494574#post6494574)
I reserve the right to continue down the road I'm on, and I reserve the right to determine that a particular critic/editor/teacher is *wrong* for me or *wrong* about this particular case. But sometimes they are right, and it is often valuable for me to hear their assessments of what I'm doing either way.



Right on,

whew,,,

[Zero_]

Any generalizations are useless...

IMHO, it's not about playing fast or slow.. it's about playing with the music/musicians around you. Of course, whether you are doing that is highly subjective as well.

For the OP, the notion "If you played half the notes, you'd be twice the player" may have been assertive at that time .. but it's certainly not something that applies for everybody at any time.

I feel sometimes just thinking differently about your own technique is what makes you leap ahead in your playing.

I've played in a funk band for the last 8 years and my style has widened quite a bit in that time.
In the beginning, my right hand was always continuously strumming 16ths for rhythm (not playing all 16ths, just the movement) and I would then switch to "normal" playing for solos. After a while, I started playing some solos while still in the 16ths strumming and it completely changed my
approach for melody and rhythm. Now it's not that I do that all the time, it's just an extension of my technique that fits certain songs/solos very well.

The point is: reconsidering your own playing, e.g. playing more notes/less notes, shuffled/straight, downstrokes/upstrokes, soloing on one string, whithin chord shapes, melodically/rhythmically can be very inspirational and can uncover new shades in your playing that you didn't even know you had.
That's what counts.

[Eagle1]

The question should be about note choice . Not the dumb assumption that fast=bad and slow=soul, total BS you only have to listen to some pentatonic mindless monotone cliché blues to realise how shallow that surmise is.