A question for successful songwriters

[Whiskeyrebel]

Here's the executive summary: if I know of somebody who has "the ins" on selling songs, is it obnoxious or unacceptable to approach him with material I wrote to try to get it heard or sold, and if not, what's fair to offer for acting as an intermediary? A share of rights or a one time commission if sold?

The rest of the story:
I believe in my songs. People who hear them tell me I should do something with them. So far I'm the only one who has sung them.

Through another guitar bulletin board that has since gone defunct, I once made contact with a professional songwriter. At the time I asked his advice regarding a situation where I suspected that I was being presented a "vanity press" ripoff. He confirmed that and basically warned me that I was being sharked if I went along with the deal.

Well since I know that this guy leveled with me on the previous situation, I figure he would be a good person to approach about presenting my work to people he knows, and he would likely be fair about his end of the deal. But if that is , how would you say, a thing that is just not done, I guess I'd better drop it.

Why go through a third party?
As much as I love singing and playing, I realize my playing skills aren't up the level of my writing. I might feel like I'm the best one to sing my own songs but my life hardly allows for practice anymore let alone gigging, and besides, a short bald 40 yr old engineer is not exactly a sellable image.

What I'm saying is that the songs I write might have a shot at a life of their own even if....even THOUGH a music career is not in the cards for me. But if I have a hard time setting aside time to practice with the band, I sure don't have time to hustle my songs. Especially starting from scratch with no showbiz contacts.

[Whiskeyrebel]

No responses, so I made the thread title more pertinent to the questions
aaaaaaaaaaaaand..bump

[chrisgraff]

Asking that question would be akin to proposing on your first date. The way to "break-in" is to build relationships in whatever scene/city you're looking at.

That means travel. You're physical presence demonstrates your level of committment.

If you can build a relationship enough, you may be able to get some co-writing in, during your trip(s). Then you'll have the benefit of that writer's publisher.

Once in a blue moon, a new writer will get a piece of a big single. Rare, but it happens. :BluesBros

[soulohio]

get someone like me to learn your songs and stand on the street in nashville and sing them

oh, isee you want to do it...so go to nashville and stand on the street and sing them. i see alot of people doing that.

[Jahn]

Songwriters in Nashville are like scriptwriters in hollywood, everyone has an idea for a hit, and it's a hard hard road to have one see the light of day. If there was a proven formula everyone would be doing it- the best thing to do is just to network, get a reputation out there by exposure, and cross your fingers.

[Whiskeyrebel]

Asking that question would be akin to proposing on your first date. The way to "break-in" is to build relationships in whatever scene/city you're looking at.

That means travel. You're physical presence demonstrates your level of committment.

If you can build a relationship enough, you may be able to get some co-writing in, during your trip(s). Then you'll have the benefit of that writer's publisher.

Once in a blue moon, a new writer will get a piece of a big single. Rare, but it happens. :BluesBros

That's exactly the complication. There's more than just myself affected if I try to put 110% into music. Devoting the time on top of my work would sacrifice my involvement with my wife & kids, and devoting the time at the expense of my work would sacrifice our material security. That's exactly why I'd hoped to find a go-between.

[loudboy]

That's exactly the complication. There's more than just myself affected if I try to put 110% into music. Devoting the time on top of my work would sacrifice my involvement with my wife & kids, and devoting the time at the expense of my work would sacrifice our material security. That's exactly why I'd hoped to find a go-between.

The depressing answer is that you'll be competing with guys who are ready and willing to do everything you're not.

Maybe look for some songwriting forums and try to make friends. Get advice and take small steps - who knows!

[Plague Dog]

There are a lot of demo studios that do a descent job of making a marketable product. They aren't going to pitch your songs, they aren't going to tell you how to make them better. They will make a good representation of the material you provide for them. When you get your songs demoed.

Then you take a trip to nashville and you make an appointment with the rep from ASCAP and the rep from BMI.

If they like your stuff and believe you stand a snow balls chance they might get you in touch with a publisher or two who you can pitch your material to. If you get in to a reputable publisher and they like your material they might give you a publishing contract (and $1). They will add it to their library and when there is a call for a certain type of song to a particular artist, they might pitch it, along with several other songs from their library that they feel might fit the bill.

Publishers are just like you. They want a hit song. They want top artists to cut songs from their library. If they feel like you have a promising song, they will pitch it. Mailing it cold to them is not going to work. The only publishers that accept unsolicited songs are going to come after you for money to cut a demo, and then they'll need money to pitch it.. yadda yadda frikken yadda. Those are the people you want to stay away from.

Another route is to locate promising artists who hasn't made it yet ( and maybe never will) who wants great songs that will make them shine. Pitch your songs to them and they might put one or more in their showcase. If nothing else, industry types who check out up and coming artists from time to time will hear your material.

I co-wrote a song with a woman who pitched it to an artist and they put it on her first album. (i never got a cent)... The weird thing is, the lyrics I wrote were just a rough first draft. The woman wrote the melody, demoed the song and pitched it without telling me, until after they cut the song... Then the woman called me and told me I needed to go down and meet the artist at Douglass corner for her showcase. She was a seventeen year old hottie being backed by some of the cats from Marshall Tucker. All from lyrics I never got a chance to finish.

[Whiskeyrebel]

There are a lot of demo studios that do a descent job of making a marketable product. They aren't going to pitch your songs, they aren't going to tell you how to make them better. They will make a good representation of the material you provide for them. When you get your songs demoed.....

..... The only publishers that accept unsolicited songs are going to come after you for money to cut a demo, and then they'll need money to pitch it.. yadda yadda frikken yadda. Those are the people you want to stay away from.
....
well I'm heartened to hear that the concept of having a studio crew make a demo of the song is established and has some legitimacy. That is what was recommended to me in the situation I talked about in the OP.

I'd bought an instruction tape from a guitarist who was in the road band for a heyuuge national act and thought, what harm can it do, asked him if he'd like to hear my band's songs. First he asked me to rerecord them solo with just an acoustic, then suggested having them recut by studio players.

One of the kids was close to being born at the time so I told the guy I could not spare the expense just then. He also tried to rook me on the rights - He'd get publising rights and I'd retain "writer's rights" and I knew better than that at least.....should have told him we is a crooked deceptive POS who had no business hanging that cross and little fish on his guitar if he was going to cheat folks, but I left the bridge unburned by saying that money was the only reason, but geez....

I'm fascinated to see that all the responses are with respect to country music, or at least it would seem so since Nashville is mentioned so much. Is it because the roles of performer and songwriter are more delineated in country than rock or pop, or is it a presumption based on my screen name?

[whitecadillac]

Both the Nashville Songwriters Association and Taxi are great assets to songwriters without the resources to both critically evaluate their material and to "get it out there".

[guitgator]

get someone like me to learn your songs and stand on the street in nashville and sing them

oh, isee you want to do it...so go to nashville and stand on the street and sing them. i see alot of people doing that.

completely fruitless

Most of the record labels have their own publishing arms now and pay their own staff writers. No one in the business pays any attention to street musicians....heck they hardly pay any attention to the musicians who play in the clubs.

[guitgator]

Both the Nashville Songwriters Association and Taxi are great assets to songwriters without the resources to both critically evaluate their material and to "get it out there".


might also try SongU.com They have evaluation services and a pitch program for the best songs that come through the door.

[Plague Dog]

Pop and country are the only genres that routinely use songwriters for material.


NSAI may have been effective at one time...

[GuitarsFromMars]

Use any and all contacts you can find, or do a search for independent songpluggers in the 3 major markets (NY, N-ville or LA). Simple demos, if you need more than a simple demo, it's up to the discretion of the writer. Remember in the major markets, your up against the best of the best, but you may have a unique voice, and may get lucky. You never know until you try.

[Grenville]

He also tried to rook me on the rights - He'd get publising rights and I'd retain "writer's rights" and I knew better than that at least.....should have told him we is a crooked deceptive POS who had no business hanging that cross and little fish on his guitar if he was going to cheat folks, but I left the bridge unburned by saying that money was the only reason, but geez....



Doesn't sound like he was trying to "rook you on the rights", but I don't know the whole story. A publisher does take a share for placing your songs into an income-producing situation. So now you have retained 100% of your rights for songs that aren't generating any income at all.

Having said that, certainly there are people who can or will take you for a ride...

[Plague Dog]

He also tried to rook me on the rights - He'd get publising rights and I'd retain "writer's rights" and I knew better than that at least.....should have told him we is a crooked deceptive POS who had no business hanging that cross and little fish on his guitar if he was going to cheat folks, but I left the bridge unburned by saying that money was the only reason, but geez....

Okay, I have to admit, this bothered me. You approached a guy with contacts to help you pitch your songs. This guy obviously likes your songs enough to take an interest. But for his time, effort and reputation that he's putting on the line to help you sell a song or two he's asking for publishing rights. That isn't any more than any publisher would ask... and in return he gets labeled a crooked deceptive POS.

If you were to pitch a song to say Garth Brooks, he's going to want 100% of the publishers rights plus 50% of the songwriting rights. Is it worth it? Is Garth a crooked, deceptive POS?

[sundaypunch]

Vintage Guitar magazine had an interview with JJ Cale a couple of years ago. In it he mentioned that he signed away 50% of the rights to his songs.

When the interviewer asked him why he would do that, (I'm paraphrasing) the reply was that he wasn't good with the business end of things and that he'd rather have 50% of something than 100% of nothing.

[Whiskeyrebel]

If he gave me factual information about what each of us would be entitled to under those terms and I agreed, no not at all. If Garth Brooks himself misrepresented what I would relinquish by ceding publing rights in order to get me to agree, then yes Garth Brooks would be a crooked, deceptive SOB. If he told me it only involved reproduction of the lyrics in writing for example...

The songwriter that I asked about the situation told publisher's rights are all there is to IP rights on songs, and essentially I was being asked to surrender the songs outright. What is the distinction between songwriter's rights and publishing rights? What rights are preserved by retaining songwriter's rights?

[GuitarsFromMars]

:facepalm

[Plague Dog]

Okay, look at a song as 200% ... 100% songwriters and 100% Publishers.

In the old days people pitched a song in a publishers office using an acoustic guitar or a piano singing it for the publisher. The publisher would then sign a contract in which he would get 100% of the publishing and the songwriter would retain 100% of the songwriting (assuming there were no co-writers involved).
The publisher would then make a demo, copyright and pitch the song, if it is cut the publisher receives the royalties and distributes them too.
This 200% is completely negotiable depending on the relative strength of your standing.
Many artists become their own publisher so as to maximize their profits on their own material.
What has become common practice now is the songwriters have become willing to provide an industry quality demo, usually with a minus vocal track, but the publisher will still provide the copyright, and pitch the song. Publishing contracts will run out after two years if they haven't gotten it cut by that time.
If the publisher comes back to the songwriter trying to recoup any incurred expenses he is a "crooked, deceptive POS"...

That's not to say that even with a publishing contract, if you feel the publisher isn't doing everything he can to get the song cut, you are free to hire a song plugger, but the publisher will still retain all rights stated in the contract. The problem with a song plugger is there is no accountability, they can tell you whatever you want to hear while they sit in their office and play freecell.

[wstsidela]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41t3PN%2BgX3L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/This-Business-Songwriting-Jason-Blume/dp/0823077594

[chrisgraff]

Doesn't sound like he was trying to "rook you on the rights", but I don't know the whole story. A publisher does take a share for placing your songs into an income-producing situation. So now you have retained 100% of your rights for songs that aren't generating any income at all.

Having said that, certainly there are people who can or will take you for a ride...

Three guys I know got a cut with a famous R&B artist last year. They presented a finished song, which the artist loved. Artist made a few changes; lo and behold, it made the record!

Artist got 50%, my buds split the other 50%. :jo

[smallbutmighty]

All the advice here has been good, but before you take any of it my advice to you would be to be brutally honest with yourself about whether or not your songs are marketable.

I mean brutally, mercilessly honest.

And then find someone besides your family and friends that will be even more brutally, mercilessly honest with you.

In order to compete in the marketplace you need 100% certified, Grade AA, bullet-proof, tamper-proof, armor-plated, pitch-able songs that follow the "rules" of songcraft.

They all need to uptempo.

You need at least that. Most songwriters don't, and end up spending a lot of money on songs that don't have a chance in hell of ever going anywhere.

Once your certain....certain...you've got the songs, have them demoed by a good studio (see guitgator for this).

Then work like heck in Nashville for about 15 years and hope to get really lucky.

[stratocat63]

They all need to uptempo.



Why? Serious question.

[Plague Dog]

I would suggest buying some books on the business of songwriting...

Radio doesn't like ballads.

[chrisgraff]

Another option: hire a producer, singer, etc. Market the song yourself. Lots of (good) songs getting placements in T.V./movies these days. Sell it on iTunes, via Tunecore or CDbaby.

The way the industry is right now, you'd have better luck doing it this way. :YinYang

[Whiskeyrebel]

Okay, look at a song as 200% ... 100% songwriters and 100% Publishers.

In the old days people pitched a song in a publishers office using an acoustic guitar or a piano singing it for the publisher. The publisher would then sign a contract in which he would get 100% of the publishing and the songwriter would retain 100% of the songwriting (assuming there were no co-writers involved).
The publisher would then make a demo, copyright and pitch the song, if it is cut the publisher receives the royalties and distributes them too.
This 200% is completely negotiable depending on the relative strength of your standing.
Many artists become their own publisher so as to maximize their profits on their own material.
What has become common practice now is the songwriters have become willing to provide an industry quality demo, usually with a minus vocal track, but the publisher will still provide the copyright, and pitch the song. Publishing contracts will run out after two years if they haven't gotten it cut by that time.
If the publisher comes back to the songwriter trying to recoup any incurred expenses he is a "crooked, deceptive POS"...

That's not to say that even with a publishing contract, if you feel the publisher isn't doing everything he can to get the song cut, you are free to hire a song plugger, but the publisher will still retain all rights stated in the contract. The problem with a song plugger is there is no accountability, they can tell you whatever you want to hear while they sit in their office and play freecell.

OK. According to what you're telling me, a lot of my rancor was misplaced, but there is still a sticking point. I'd only heard of publishing rights and the term songwriter's rights was new to me, and when I asked the guy what the effect of that division of rights was, what he told me just wasn't right.

On the other hand, it also looks like there is something amiss with the advice I got from the writer, and that was the basis of my assessment that I was being scammed. I asked him if the suggestion to get a demo made was necessary and legitimate, and he steered me away from it saying it was strictly a vanity press. And when I asked him what the difference between publishing rights and songwriter's rights was, he told me I was being talked into turning over the whole ownership.

So either I did a bad job asking the questions and the writer gave me his best answers to what he thought I was asking, or the writer mislead me....which would mean the original focus of my question, whether it was acceptable to approach the writer with my songs, is kind of moot.

[Plague Dog]

A demo made for the purpose of pitching a song is not necessarily a vanity press. Like I said before, it has become common practice for the songwriter to have a demo cut, but that is to pitch to a publisher. If a publisher is asking you to cut a demo at your own cost, and he's the one who is going to cut i, then I would be suspicious. If the guy wants publishing rights, ask him to pay for the demo, or at the very least, split the cost.
There was a guy in Nashville who did a great job, The Songwriters Studio I'm going to PM you his contact info. Call him, he does industry quality demo's... $310 for a basic demo.

[chrisgraff]

And when I asked him what the difference between publishing rights and songwriter's rights was, he told me I was being talked into turning over the whole ownership.

To clarify...100% writer's share & 100% publisher's share are not equal. Each receives an equal royalty per use, yes. However:

"Publishing" is the ownership of the song. It can be sold, (Michael Jackson buying the Beatles catalog for example). Writer does not get a piece of the proceeds of that sale.

He who owns the publishing, controls the song. If a publisher wants to license a song for $.01, that's perfectly within his/her rights as owner of the song.

The writer always gets his equal share....of whatever the publisher decides.

So, whoever gave you that advice....gave you good advice. :YinYang

[smallbutmighty]

Why? Serious question.

Uptempo songs will increase an independent songwriter's chances of getting a cut exponentially, IME. Seems like publishers have heard a million, billion, trillion good ballads. It's hard to get them excited about that. But you give 'em a well-written uptempo number and they become much more interested.

From That Thing You Do: "You get one cut per side of the lp, but i don't want any of this lover's lament crap. I want something peppy, something happy, something up-tempo. I want something snappy."

That pretty much sums it up.

[smallbutmighty]

If the guy wants publishing rights, ask him to pay for the demo, or at the very least, split the cost.


The only demos that a publisher would ever pay for would be their staff writer's demos, IME.

A "no-name" writer trying to break into the scene will be paying for their own demos.

[Shiny McShine]

Here's the executive summary: if I know of somebody who has "the ins" on selling songs, is it obnoxious or unacceptable to approach him with material I wrote to try to get it heard or sold, and if not, what's fair to offer for acting as an intermediary?

Yes. Get an agent and legal representation and have them do it.

As someone who simply owned a recording studio, I got barraged with horrible demos. And they always believed it was the next big thing every time. Now, when someone tries to hand me a demo, I refuse it as graciously as possible.

Addendum: A better way if you're going to try to sneak in the back door is to figure out where this person goes and try to be playing your song on the sidewalk or something within earshot. To this day, my ear always perks up and I'll listen whenever I see someone playing on the street. I've always been disappointed but I guess hope springs eternal? When I figure out that they're half baked I simply continue to act like I'm preoccupied and go on my way. It usually takes about twenty seconds to figure out if someone has something or not.

[smallbutmighty]

To clarify...100% writer's share & 100% publisher's share are not equal.

Maybe the OP can visualize it this way:

When you write a song, the ownership of that song belongs to you - lock, stock and barrel.

When you sign a contract with a publisher for that song, you transfer ownership to them 100% - lock, stock, and barrel. Every dime that is made from that song now goes to them. Every decision made regarding what to do with that song now belongs to them.

Why in the hell would any songwriter do this?

They do it becuase they believe that publisher has the connections and cache necessary to make money from their song....to get it cut by an artist, placed in a movie, used in a commercial, etc. This is called exploiting the song.

Here's how the songwriter makes money:

In consideration of the songwriter assigning 100% of the ownership of the song over the them and allowing them to exploit it, the publisher agrees to pay the songwriter a percentage of any money the song earns....usually 50%. This 50% of total revenue = 100% of the "songwriter's share". (If their are multiple writers then they all split the "songwriter's share".)

So....to sum up......when a songwriters publishes he is basically giving it away because he feels the publisher will be able to make more money with it than he could himself. He feels that 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing.

Here's the rub: In my experience most small-time publishers need you more than you need them. I've had a few cuts, and all of them have come as a a result of my own networking and contacts. Not a single song I've signed with a publisher has ever been cut. Not one. Thank goodness those contracts all had reversion clauses!