Ever play around with "bad" tone?

[Carltone]

And see if you can make something good with it?

I've noticed artists like Ry Cooder, David Torn and Marc Ribot do this a lot as well... Almost like it a philosophy with 'em...
maybe have a repeated melodic phrase played on a really eq'd out acoustic or super raunchy electric... a tone most players would avoid, but when these guys use it... it's glorious and adds interest!


kinda like how old rap songs would have that really awful sounding, but hooky melodic part that would be used as a fill in the tune...

Any other artists super adept at this "philosophy in their compositions?"

[Frank Prince]

It's an interesting idea....................... I think that maybe it should be referred to as "inappropriate tone", or even "inappropriate playing for the current tone and/or tune", because it seems like any tone can supply good musical value if it is used with intention by a great musician.

[Sweetfinger]

Jimmy Page was KING of the crap tone. Listen carefully to the layering he did on a lot of old Zeppelin. There's tones in there that you would NEVER dial up thinking they would be good but when added with another layer or two of guitars, they sit just right.

[kingsleyd]

"Black Dog" is a great example of that. I was sitting in my car at a red light yesterday and that tune was blasting out of the truck next to me. Man, that sound just JUMPS out of the radio the same way it did in 1971 when I was 13. Apparently on that tune, the main guitar was direct into the board; the distortion is JP slamming the console's input. Who the hell would do that?!?

I think guys like torn and Ribot would say that most guitarists have too willingly accepted common notions of "good" tone and narrowed their tonal palette accordingly. Or, as Paul Westerberg once put it:

You read common knowledge every day
And you're as common as that newspaper you throw away

Definitely food for thought. I'm sure some of the underlying motivation is social. My ex-wife couldn't stand most of torn's guitar sounds. (she made a hysterically funny set of facial expressions and vocal noises once to indicate how they sounded/felt to her) Live with someone like that for a while and it's bound to have an effect on the tones you choose to work with if you don't have a place to work that is outside the house or completely soundproof.

[kingsleyd]

It's an interesting idea....................... I think that maybe it should be referred to as "inappropriate tone", or even "inappropriate playing for the current tone and/or tune", because it seems like any tone can supply good musical value if it is used with intention by a great musician.

I guess if the musical value is there I'd have a hard time with the word "inappropriate." I think it's more that the notion of guitar sound has been "classicized," by which I mean there's a widely accepted standard of what an electric guitar should sound like, that of course varies across musical contexts. (i.e., a "good jazz sound" is pretty different from a "good metal sound") Which isn't in itself a bad thing, it's just that it can have the (negative to some) effect of narrowing the palette of tones and making the music sound (to some) boring and generic and marginalizing players who may be creative and have something fresh to say because their tone "isn't good," i.e., doesn't meet expectations for the genre.

[Frank Prince]

I guess if the musical value is there I'd have a hard time with the word "inappropriate." I think it's more that the notion of guitar sound has been "classicized," by which I mean there's a widely accepted standard of what an electric guitar should sound like, that of course varies across musical contexts. (i.e., a "good jazz sound" is pretty different from a "good metal sound") Which isn't in itself a bad thing, it's just that it can have the (negative to some) effect of narrowing the palette of tones and making the music sound (to some) boring and generic and marginalizing players who may be creative and have something fresh to say because their tone "isn't good," i.e., doesn't meet expectations for the genre.
Yeah, so maybe bad or even inappropriate tone is a misnomer, because any tone in the hands of a great player will work, even if it is "wrong" for the song or genre.

Look at the solo in The Police' Driven To Tears for an example, or Spanish Fly. Nylon-string guitar seems like the worst choice ever for a 2-handed tapping shred solo, but Eddie made it work.

On the other hand, there are many examples, esp. in '80s metal, of players who had the right tone for the tune but sounded like shit b/c they just weren't very good players. :idk:

[Craig Gates]

I never get what I'd consider a "good" tone; I just get "my" tone - so I've learned to work with that. Sometimes I think it ends up sounding pretty unique and interesting despite lack of "good" tone. Examples at www.myspace.com/brasssaddles

It helps that I like Ry Cooder, Neil Young, old 60s garage rock, and other stuff that has "bad" or "unique" tones...

[Bryan T]

I love playing with different sounds, some of which might be considered bad.

[rwe333]

Some textures are polite, some less so... All depends on the vibe you're after...

[YoungAmerican]

Some textures are polite, some less so... All depends on the vibe you're after...

This is about right. As far as I'm concerned, there's no such thing as a bad tone. You just have to know the time and the place.

[kingsleyd]

Some textures are polite, some less so... All depends on the vibe you're after...

Some of torn's tones have the texture and vibe of turkish espresso to me. (hmmm... can't imagine why...)

:)

Whereas a lot of guitar sounds I hear are as bland as day-old chain hotel coffee.

:barf

(hmmm, one could have some fun with this analogy!)

[seiko]

Yeah, I have a Burns Bison that a "Wild Dog" setting that is out-of-phase, all mids, combine that with a wah (for stuck tones) and a fuzz and it has an infinite palate of nasally sounds that really stand out. I went to a Ribot clinic and he does something similar turns down the treble at the guitar but finds a trebley stuck wah tone, really cheap and nasty sounding.

[Psychotronic]

I'm a "Les Paul into Marshall" type guy, but there have been many instsances where I purposely went for a very "plinky" tone.

[changeling]

i agree about the jimmy page thing.
if you could isolate some of those tracks i imagine they would sound awful,but in context...like a grand design.

i think it's part of being totally fearless and unconcerned about what your peers would do;e.g. damn near every jimi hendrix live recording i ever heard teeters on the brink of music/sound/vortex 'til it just becomes HIM.

ryland cooder always sounds great to me,regardless of whatever teisco pickup is in his strats:drool..him and lindley should be on mt. rushmore.
r

[pete692]

Jimmy Page was KING of the crap tone. Listen carefully to the layering he did on a lot of old Zeppelin. There's tones in there that you would NEVER dial up thinking they would be good but when added with another layer or two of guitars, they sit just right.
So true. Check out his tones all over the Albert Hall portion of the DVD that they released. OUCH. I could never make any of that shit sound good.

[splatt]

Some of torn's tones have the texture and vibe of turkish espresso to me. (hmmm... can't imagine why...)

:)
honestly, k:
i returned to my highly-caffeinated roots
--- italian & spanish-style espressi ---
not long after the last time you were at my spot.
what? like, 10 yrs ago, maybe a bit less?
vintage-style.
ha!
and..... i've seriously cut back:
no more than 4-dbls per diem, hoc tempore.....
on some days, it's down to 2-dbls!
perish the thought, but i almost never have a single before bed,
anymore, as i'd done for so many yrs.

dt / spltrcl

[TubeStack]

Yeah, lots of great players use "bad" tone to great creative effect. Sometimes a solo or hook part needs to be absolutely obnoxious.

Jimmy Page was the first that came to mind, Billy Gibbons, too.

[TubeStack]

And to answer the question, yes, I love messing around with nasty, "bad" tones!

[gls500]

This is the sort of thing that you really need an ear for. If you know how to make it work, it can be a great tool for creating new textures, but it's not easy. I'm not particularly good at it, but I wish I were better.

[epluribus]

Way back when I first learned to play, we used to dial up the most preposterous tones we could and then use 'em to play strange stuff. Usually quite ridicuous, but almost as often you end up learning something really useful. Done it ever since--great fun.

BTW, I realize I'm not supposed to say this outside of the Digital section, but modellers, esp w GUI, are the best thing since sliced bread for doing this. :)

--Ray

[splatt]

This is the sort of thing that you really need an ear for. If you know how to make it work, it can be a great tool for creating new textures, but it's not easy. I'm not particularly good at it, but I wish I were better.
it may not be easy, but..... wait: no, i think that's a bit wrong-minded.
it is easy.
only the first steps are hard:
there's some efforts required:
but, the efforts required can be exciting
--- might be fun, even ---
since it calls for exploring, in some way,
with half-a-mind towards usefulness, and a willingness to dispense
with the more "useless" (to you) sh•t you might uncover.
and:
do it enough, and it can become simply integrated into your musical/instrumental view,
your "daily routine", or whatever.
expanding your view of music, and your own capabilities.
good tones, bad tones, whatever: useful tones,
and the integrate-able techniques to produce them.

just like every other aspect of music-making, i'd venture to say.

dt / spltrcl