Master Buss redlining issue

[jjboogie]

I am working on a mix right now and after getting everything balanced and sounding good I got the drums redlining which is causing the Master Buss to redline. Not the recorded audio but after plug ins and stuff.

I am running all my instruments into their own dedicated stereo aux tracks and then out of that aux tracks into a "master aux" labeled 2MIX then out of the 2MIX out and into the Main Stereo Buss.

Now here is the question.....I know Mastering Engineers hate receiving material that is redlining and too hot not leaving them much room to do anything........would it affect the mix if I turned down the Master Aux/2MIX Aux track to get the Master Stereo Buss that's peaking down to about -3 or -6 db? That way everything gets turned down together at the same time.

Is that how I should handle getting the whole mess getting it out of the red zone? Or should I go and move each individual track trim down the same amt of db one at a time?


Thanks!
JJ

[Sunbreak Music]

I'll give you a few things to think about here.....

By textbook, you shouldn't lower your master fader because of the loss of bit depth.

You should probably be building your mixes from a level that allows you the headroom not to worry about it.

I'd check with your ME, but I have headroom "buffer" in my analog chain so it's really not an issue if I receive hotter mixes that aren't compressed.

Hope that helps some. If you're "done" with the mix, and really happy with it, dropping the fader a few dBs in a 24bit mix shouldn't be a deal killer.

[jjboogie]

I'll give you a few things to think about here.....

By textbook, you shouldn't lower your master fader because of the loss of bit depth.

You should probably be building your mixes from a level that allows you the headroom not to worry about it.

I'd check with your ME, but I have headroom "buffer" in my analog chain so it's really not an issue if I receive hotter mixes that aren't compressed.

Hope that helps some. If you're "done" with the mix, and really happy with it, dropping the fader a few dBs in a 24bit mix shouldn't be a deal killer.



I think you might have misunderstood me.....I am not lowering the Master Fader but the Aux track that everything is being fed too. So the actual Master Fader is staying exactly the same. Does that make sense?

Thanks for your input!

[Sunbreak Music]

I think you might have misunderstood me.....I am not lowering the Master Fader but the Aux track that everything is being fed too. So the actual Master Fader is staying exactly the same. Does that make sense?

Thanks for your input!

Ahhhh....I see that now. So, why are you feeding everything to an aux prior to feeding it to the main outs?

[jjboogie]

Ahhhh....I see that now. So, why are you feeding everything to an aux prior to feeding it to the main outs?


Bottom line.........Monkey see monkey do!

I saw it done in an instructional video and I also saw it done by a Grammy Award winning Producer/Engineer in their studio. Why they do it I am still trying to figure out however I am seeing some benefits to this method.

[Sunbreak Music]

Bottom line.........Monkey see monkey do!



I can respect that. :)

Not the change the subject, but you do no other processing rather than sending an entire mix to an Aux (and I'm thinking submix bus rather than an Aux/Send setup)?

What platform are you using?

[jjboogie]

I can respect that. :)

Not the change the subject, but you do no other processing rather than sending an entire mix to an Aux (and I'm thinking submix bus rather than an Aux/Send setup)?

What platform are you using?

I am using just a digi 002 rack.

I am not exactly sure that I understand the question. For instance I run all my drum tracks out into and aux track. Same with gtrs and vox and keys. Each sent to a stereo aux then out those aux tracks into another sort of master aux but not yet the master buss. I then send that aux out into the master buss. Make sense? Each track has plug ins and eqs and automation etc

[Mondoslug]

I am running all my instruments into their own dedicated stereo aux tracks and then out of that aux tracks into a "master aux" labeled 2MIX then out of the 2MIX out and into the Main Stereo Buss.

Now here is the question.....I know Mastering Engineers hate receiving material that is redlining and too hot not leaving them much room to do anything........would it affect the mix if I turned down the Master Aux/2MIX Aux track to get the Master Stereo Buss that's peaking down to about -3 or -6 db? That way everything gets turned down together at the same time.

Is that how I should handle getting the whole mess getting it out of the red zone? Or should I go and move each individual track trim down the same amt of db one at a time?


Thanks!
JJ
Me, I would turn the individual tracks down leading to the SubMaster
(The thing you're calling "master aux")

[jjboogie]

Me, I would turn the individual tracks down leading to the SubMaster
(The thing you're calling "master aux")

I have so much volume automation though that it would take forever. But why oit of curiosity would you do it that way?

[Jan Folkson]

Group all of the "required tracks" and use trim automation.

[jjboogie]

Group all of the "required tracks" and use trim automation.

Well i have automated trim already on some tracks so i would have to adjust them. No has mentioned why they wouldn't just turn down the master aux track that feeds into the master buss.

[Timmylikesthing]

I think the issue is you are clipping somewhere and you've now mixed in the mistake.

The answer I think you know, that you don't want to hear, is to find out if the individual drum tracks are clipping or if the auxes are. Then fix it there.

If the individual tracks are redlining, then it won't matter if the auxes are -6. You'll still have that clipped sound.

Sorry?
Tim

[Bassomatic]

By textbook, you shouldn't lower your master fader because of the loss of bit depth.

Not sure i get this - 0 dBFS is 0 dBFS and changes made to the master fader keeping the loudest peak a dB or so below digital zero should not result in a loss of bit depth, correct? Where bit depth is lost is in the recording of *individual* tracks, it seems to me.*

I agree that lowering the master buss by a few dB in a 24 or 32 bit mix should be essentially imperceptible, regardless of 'textbook'. Hell, most regular folks can't distinguish between a high quality mp3 and a 24 bit mix.
IOW, bit depth is likely one of the least things most beginning engineers need to worry about in their mixes. Good eq, panning, balancing, depth-of-field, and compression (where used) are a lot harder to attain, it would seem.

(*Note: Of course we're only talking ITB - analog gain staging is a lot trickier).

[MichaelK]

Not sure i get this - 0 dBFS is 0 dBFS and changes made to the master fader keeping the loudest peak a dB or so below digital zero should not result in a loss of bit depth, correct?

I believe – though I'm not even close to certain – that in Pro Tools, even if the fader is lowered, the master bus could be getting hit with overs but the meters wouldn't redline.* I say that because when I've inserted meters in the master bus before any bus processing, those meters redlined even though the master fader meters did not.

Anyway, what I've done to fix redlining is to highlight the fader automation for all audio tracks and drag them all down the same amount, only as much as needed, which is rarely more than 1 or 2 dB. Then I readjust the bus compressor if/as needed.

*edited per new information

[Jan Folkson]

Well i have automated trim already on some tracks so i would have to adjust them. No has mentioned why they wouldn't just turn down the master aux track that feeds into the master buss.

Even if you've done trim automation before, you can just trim again.

I'm assuming that the reason you're using a 'master aux' prior to the master fader, is to use pre fader inserts across your mix (inserts on the master bus are post-fader) and that you're using sub groups for various groups of tracks prior to the 'master aux'.

If one of the sub group auxes are clipping and you've got inserts on that aux, you could try lowering the output of the plug-in. If you're clipping on the way into the 'bus' you'll need to lower the level of the individual tracks going into that bus. The easiest way is to create a group, if you haven't already, and use trim automation to bring them down a bit. Either way you're going to need to re-balance things to a certain extent.

Without knowing more about the gain staging in your mix, it's hard to give definitive advice. Every mix is different, creating different problems requiring different solutions. Adding an aux before the master fader because you've seen somebody else do it, without knowing why they did it, seems flawed.

[jjboogie]

For some reason I was under the impression was that the real no no was recorded in the red to tape not necessarily being in the red because of a hot mix with plug ins on it each providing additional gain. But then again red is red and is a warning for a reason.

[Bassomatic]

For some reason I was under the impression was that the real no no was recorded in the red to tape not necessarily being in the red because of a hot mix with plug ins on it each providing additional gain. But then again red is red and is a warning for a reason.

The real no no is hitting digital zero (0 dBfs) on any track you're recording, be it a mono guitar track or the stereo (or surround) "mix" (usually an export or rendering or somesuch when working ITB). IOW, avoid digtal "overs" at all cost. [Digital clipping is a sound most would not consider pretty (unlike our beloved analog clipping or distortion, which may or may not sound great, depending on the gear/circumstance)].

I'd worry about "red" less (as it may very from application to application) and your maximum peak relative to 0 dBfs more (unless you're working analog*, of course).

*"Recording in the red" is a beloved and ubiquitous technique in the realm of analog tape. Analog headroom is a completely different animal than digital.

[funkycam]

am I missing something by suggesting just pulling the fader on every track back by 2 db or some other amount?

[MichaelK]

inserts on the master bus are post-fader

That being the case (which I'll assume it is only because you probably know, and I don't)... I'm editing my post above.

[Jan Folkson]

am I missing something by suggesting just pulling the fader on every track back by 2 db or some other amount?


If you're using subgroups, which the original post is, it becomes a bit more complicated. For example, if you've got a compressor going across the sub, and pull the faders down that comprise that sub, the compressor will no longer be reacting the same way as the input is now lower. Pulling the subgroup master down will affect the level of any sends relative to the direct signal going to the mix.

None of this rebalancing is particularly difficult, it's just not as easy as pulling all the faders down.

[jjboogie]

My problem was not with recorded sound files red lining but redlining after adding plug ins and adjusting levels getting a mix.

I didn't want to ruin my cohesiveness by turning everything down then realizing the automated volumes were unaffected therefore ruining the mix!

I found out from a Berklee Teacher that I can turn down the master mix buss that everything is fed thru before going to the Master Fader.

[MichaelK]

None of this rebalancing is particularly difficult, it's just not as easy as pulling all the faders down.

If it's only a question of lowering overall level, and if track sends and aux sends are all post-fader, I think only compressors would be significantly affected by the drop in level... am I right?

[Jan Folkson]

Anything used as an insert across the submix bus would be affected.

[Jan Folkson]

My problem was not with recorded sound files red lining but redlining after adding plug ins and adjusting levels getting a mix.

I didn't want to ruin my cohesiveness by turning everything down then realizing the automated volumes were unaffected therefore ruining the mix!

I found out from a Berklee Teacher that I can turn down the master mix buss that everything is fed thru before going to the Master Fader.

That just means that you won't be overloading the master bus. You may be clipping all over your mix though. AND, in all fairness, just because your getting 'over' indicators on your buses doesn't necessarily mean that you're getting audible distortion, even on the master. So without the ability to sit in front of your mix and hear what you're hearing, any advice is limited in it's usefulness. Regardless of it's source.

Proper gain staging is essential to a good mix and knowing how to achieve it, is a large part of what separates the men from the boys. Something, I'm sure your Berklee teacher would tell you as well.

[Mondoslug]

Err on the side of no overs. You can always make the shit louder down the line.

[JCM 800]

Yellow is the new Red.