ProTools LE/Mbox vs Boss CD1600

[joseph]

Hi, I'm pretty computer literate, looking for recording, mostly direct or at least a loadbox line out from my amps, would like a high quality drum sound; I can play bass into the unit myself. Instrumentals, using six or less tracks all-told.
My computer is around 2 yrs old, 512 mb ram, 2.6 ghz, usb ports, 60 gigabyte, cd burners.

Which system will give me high quality audio with a minimum of tweaking/high maintainence? TIA!

[straticus]

I don't know much about the Boss stuff or the Mbox so I'm speaking "all in one" box vs. DAW. My guess is that both set ups would give you reasonable sound quality, the PT system probably better though.

Personally, I don't care for the "all in one" boxes, unless portability is an issue. You already have the computer so buying the Boss unit would be a bit redundant, IMO. So if it were me, I'd go for the M-box. Correct me if I'm wrong but you get some pretty nice plug-ins with the M-box too.

BC :)

[joseph]

thanks for the ideas....like you, I'm leery of the 'all-in-one' unit sound quality. I'm curious, what system are you using?

[OneMileWish]

I'm assuming you're running a windows based PC instead of a Mac. If you're looking for something that's not going to be high maintenence, stay the heck away from the Mbox. Pro Tools + Windows is not a good mix. I'm sorry I can't point you to better solutions, but there are some here who can :)

[SteveK]

I'm just starting out also with a Windows based system. I bought the Cubase System 4. Comes with the soundcard and interface. For drums I picked up Groove Agent, and it is a great drum program. Since they are both Steinberg programs they work really well together. I also own the Boss CD1600 which is good for a portable recorder that allows 8 inputs @ once, but I'm really digging the Cubase. :D

[joseph]

Thanks...so you find the tone quality and drum sounds are better with the Steinberg software than the Boss unit?

[straticus]

Originally posted by joseph
thanks for the ideas....like you, I'm leery of the 'all-in-one' unit sound quality. I'm curious, what system are you using?

I'm using the Aardvark Q10 Direct Pro and couldn't be happier. I run Samplitude Producer 7.22 as my app. I record my band with it and get compliments on the sound of our CD's all the time. I just recorded my friends band and they're very happy with the sound.

Samplitude is VERY stable and sounds amazing. I can't recommend it highly enough. At around $800.00 it is expensive though.

As a less expensive choice I HIGHLY recommend Magix Music Studio Deluxe http://site.magix.net/index.php?id=411 Very nice app and very good price. I bought a copy for a friend at GC for $19.95! Same basic lay out and work flow as Samp, distributed by the same people that distribute Samplitude. Outstanding support, very stable. Spend time recording not fixing bugs.

BC :)

[Gerry]

Originally posted by straticus
I'm using the Aardvark Q10 Direct Pro and couldn't be happier. I run Samplitude Producer 7.22 as my app. I record my band with it and get compliments on the sound of our CD's all the time. I just recorded my friends band and they're very happy with the sound.

Samplitude is VERY stable and sounds amazing. I can't recommend it highly enough. At around $800.00 it is expensive though.

As a less expensive choice I HIGHLY recommend Magix Music Studio Deluxe http://site.magix.net/index.php?id=411 Very nice app and very good price. I bought a copy for a friend at GC for $19.95! Same basic lay out and work flow as Samp, distributed by the same people that distribute Samplitude. Outstanding support, very stable. Spend time recording not fixing bugs.

BC :)

Thanks man! What hardware are you using to connect your mics/guitar to your PC, and what drum software are you using?

[Gerry]

Originally posted by SteveK
I'm just starting out also with a Windows based system. I bought the Cubase System 4. Comes with the soundcard and interface. For drums I picked up Groove Agent, and it is a great drum program. Since they are both Steinberg programs they work really well together. I also own the Boss CD1600 which is good for a portable recorder that allows 8 inputs @ once, but I'm really digging the Cubase. :D


Thanks! So you like the overall sound of the Cubase/Groove agent than the Boss unit for your own direct/drum machine recordings?
Also, what hardware do you use to connect your guitar/mics to your PC? Thanks again!

[SteveK]

Yeah, I definitely like the Cubase / Groove Agent much better. Cubase is great, and the more I use Groove Agent the more amazing it sounds. The hardware(soundcard and interface) to connect to the computer comes in the Cubase System 4 package. It has 2 phantom powered XLR inputs, 2 1/4 inch inputs and 2 MIDI inputs. You can only use 2 inputs at a time though. For electric guitar tracks I mike my Fuchs amp. Bass goes straight in via a direct box, and keys go in via MIDI. While I've been able to record tracks pretty much as soon as I hooked everything up, there is a TON of learning involved in order to make full use of the program, and I think I am going to really enjoy the trip!!!!
It's also much easier to keep track of what I'm doing on a 17" monitor than on the tiny display on the Boss. The upside of the Boss system is that it is much more portable, and has 8 XLR inputs that can be used at the same time.
You should be able to get Cubase System 4 and Groove Agent for $600 or so.

[straticus]

Originally posted by Gerry
Thanks man! What hardware are you using to connect your mics/guitar to your PC, and what drum software are you using?

The Aardvark Q10 is the interface and you just plug in to it directly. Check it out here http://www.aardvarkaudio.com/products/q10/

It comes with Cubase LE so the Q10 is all you need to get started. You could move up to a better softwear app (like Samplitude or Magix Studio, just my opinion ;) ) later if you wanted to.

I have a real drummer but I've used Acid Pro in the past for my drum tracks. I could send you a clip or two of some drum tracks I've put together in Acid so you could hear for yourself what it sounds like. Killer drum tracks, very easy to use, and it's addicting! Plus, you can do much more than just drum tracks in Acid.

BC :)

[Screamer]

Originally posted by OneMileWish
I'm assuming you're running a windows based PC instead of a Mac. If you're looking for something that's not going to be high maintenence, stay the heck away from the Mbox. Pro Tools + Windows is not a good mix. I'm sorry I can't point you to better solutions, but there are some here who can :)

Sorry Dan, I'm going to disagree. Protools 6.X shipped on XP before Mac, and from what I am seeing Protools and the Athlon 64's are a match like peanut butter and jelly. Also, it works really well with Intel Centrino based notebooks. Based on what I have heard from people "in the know", Pro Tools is only going to get better on PC. Maybe it's because Apple is building their own DAW for Logic Pro. ;) Even McDSP is building plugins for XP now too, Digidesign made them do this for inclusion in the Massive Pack for PT-HD.

I've been running a 002R on my Athlon64 and a Dell D600 notebook for 4 months now and have never had a Protools hiccup. The caveat is to read and re-read the compatibilty list at Digidesign's website.

[G'OlPeachPhan]

Screamer, you're right on target. I'm only running the mBox, but I couldn't be happier. No bugs, no hiccups, very intuitive. That combined with the fact that you're running on a music industry standard platform that goes far beyond just the home project studio and you've got a winner. You can walk into most any studio in the country and use a Pro Tools rig.

That said, I built my Athlon 64 machine specifically for running Pro Tools, so I'm sure that contributes to the success I've had. As long as you pay attention to Digidesigns compatibility specs, you'll have no problems. There is a reason they publish all that documentation...

[pbradt]

Originally posted by Screamer
Sorry Dan, I'm going to disagree. Protools 6.X shipped on XP before Mac, and from what I am seeing Protools and the Athlon 64's are a match like peanut butter and jelly. Also, it works really well with Intel Centrino based notebooks. Based on what I have heard from people "in the know", Pro Tools is only going to get better on PC. Maybe it's because Apple is building their own DAW for Logic Pro. ;) Even McDSP is building plugins for XP now too, Digidesign made them do this for inclusion in the Massive Pack for PT-HD.

I've been running a 002R on my Athlon64 and a Dell D600 notebook for 4 months now and have never had a Protools hiccup. The caveat is to read and re-read the compatibilty list at Digidesign's website.

One of the things I like about ProTools on the Mac is that I don't have to worry about compatibility issues. As long as you have the horsepower, you can pretty much use anything you want. I have pretty generic stuff other than the MBox itself. Off the shelf HDDs and so forth. Plug in and go!

I know some folks are having good success with PT on XP, but I'm really glad to be a Mac guy.

I've seen Apple's DAW Idea with Logic and I'm not interested. I like PT and between the hardware and the plug-ins, I'm not changing horses. Besides, most of my buddies I share ideas with are on PT Mac.

[joseph]

Thanks.....I've been reading up on the Digidesign 002r with ProTools 6.7 LE, and the plug-ins from amplitube, joe Meek, drum machines/soft synths etc currently being sold with them......

My main question right now, as a pre-newbie.....how does all the above SOUND, for recording primarily guitar and bass instrumental tracks? In other words, how close is the sound quality to traditional rooms/tape recordings...I've already got the 'outboard' gear (tube springreverb, tube overdrives, analog pedals) and old school tube amps to mic or (preferably) go direct via load boxes (for late night stuff) to input probably as good a tone as possible gear wise (or at least, that I'm happy with).

TIA.

[pbradt]

Originally posted by joseph
Thanks.....I've been reading up on the Digidesign 002r with ProTools 6.7 LE, and the plug-ins from amplitube, joe Meek, drum machines/soft synths etc currently being sold with them......

My main question right now, as a pre-newbie.....how does all the above SOUND, for recording primarily guitar and bass instrumental tracks? In other words, how close is the sound quality to traditional rooms/tape recordings...I've already got the 'outboard' gear (tube springreverb, tube overdrives, analog pedals) and old school tube amps to mic or (preferably) go direct via load boxes (for late night stuff) to input probably as good a tone as possible gear wise (or at least, that I'm happy with).

TIA.

It's never gonna sound like ANALOG, but it's dang close. One thing I'd suggest is if you can afford it, get some good tube mic pres, and use the line inputs of the 002. The good pres will cost you an arm and a leg, but if you're trying to set up a truly pro PT studio, ya gotsta have 'em.

You can hear some stuff my band did with an Mbox and LE (on a mac) and decide for yourself. The drums were recorded analog and imported, but everything else was MBox.

Our demo recordings (http://www.revelatorsband.com/sound/audition/).

[joseph]

thanks! will have a listen later when I'm near speakers....


I see what you mean about tube mic preamps, from the little ART unit to $$$$! http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=rec/s=mics/search/detail/base_pid/188214/

I already have a 90's original matchless hot box (2 ax7s, clean channel which is always on, and the hi-gain one), all tube hi voltage preamp obviously for guitar...would that accomplish the same function of gain boost/hi voltage tube processing - I'm sure it would going direct for guitar/bass, for mic I'll just have to experiment.

What's a good tube mic pre-amp for $500 or less you might recommend? thanks again for sharing your been there/done that ;) .

[Screamer]

Originally posted by pbradt
One of the things I like about ProTools on the Mac is that I don't have to worry about compatibility issues.


At the risk of delving into religion, I'd ask you to take a look at the LE "Mac" forum at Digidesign's site, and then compare it to the issues in the "PC/XP" forums. There are the same hardware errors on both platforms that repeadedly arise.

There are a number of issues with PT on Mac, but unlike on a PC you don't have an option for compatibility...only what Apple provides. This seems to be a tired argument, and I don't want to go there. I can say first hand that the marriage that Digi and Apple once had isn't the same and to say that PT works "better" on an Apple takes some grit at this point.

I think Apple has some great products, but they have their share of issues too. All too often the "I just want it to work, that's why I pick Mac", gets overused and in reality is far from the actual experience. Comparing PCs to Macs is like comparing apples to oranges (no pun intended).

[pbradt]

Hey man, I ain't arguing with you, I just haven't had any issues. PT on the Mac works flawlessly for me and I like the results.

If you like your results, that's all that matters. If someone asks me a question about it, I give my experience, and in some cases, what i've heard from others.

[fatang]

ProTools big strength is as a complete system, even if you add on the Factory bundle it's a bargain.

That said there are some great ways to ala carte a cool system with various s/w apps and interfaces.

As far as mic pres; Presonus, Joe Meek, RNP, Non ISA Focusrite among others have solutions at or around $500.

Robert

[tedm]

I bought it too, it's an older version "G7" or something, only supports 16-bits, not 24-bits.


Originally posted by straticus
I'm using the Aardvark Q10 Direct Pro and couldn't be happier. I run Samplitude Producer 7.22 as my app. I record my band with it and get compliments on the sound of our CD's all the time. I just recorded my friends band and they're very happy with the sound.

Samplitude is VERY stable and sounds amazing. I can't recommend it highly enough. At around $800.00 it is expensive though.

As a less expensive choice I HIGHLY recommend Magix Music Studio Deluxe http://site.magix.net/index.php?id=411 Very nice app and very good price. I bought a copy for a friend at GC for $19.95! Same basic lay out and work flow as Samp, distributed by the same people that distribute Samplitude. Outstanding support, very stable. Spend time recording not fixing bugs.

BC :)

[MagnumSSS]

joseph,

The Mac vs. PC debate seem to go on forever! haha.....I'm going through the same trauma. There are pros and cons to both and it will depend on your budget.

If you already have a PC and want to use IT as your recording computer, you can look at not only ProTools but also, Cakwalk's Sonar, Home Studio, or Guitar Tracks, Steinberg's Cubase or Nuendo, PG Music's Power Tracks, also N Tracks, Traction, and loads of other audio sequencing/recording apps....if you want to do midi sequencing, make sure the application will allow for it. Most do. Things to consider are quality of PlugIns. Sonar 4 Producer Edition comes with great plugin effects I hear (reverb, dealy, etc.). Pro Tools is probably great as well. I can't vouch for all of them. I've used Nuendo and the plugins are great. The "Freeze" function is something to look for as it will save CPU power as you use plugins during mixdown.

As far as i/o hardware unit (mini mixer) to get your signal into your computer, I've used M-Audio and it sounds great. Check out their products.

So, you can take a couple routes.

1) Decide your software. Some people, after learning what software is available, develop a preference on a certain type of software. They are all getting good these days.

2) or, decide your platform....Windows or OS. From there, decide how you can get your signal into your computer (PCI Soundcard, Firewire, or USB). If you plan on recording a band at some times, I would go PCI Soundcard or Firewire as USB is the "runner up." Then you'll know what kind of i/o hardware device (mini mixer you need). If you use your PC Desktop, you could go with M Audio's Omni Studio....it comes with the Delta 66 soundcard (I might even be selling mine). If you use a laptop, you need to go either FireWire or USB. Go Firewire if you plan on recording a band and need send a mixer feeds into your computer, or you can get by with USB if you are going the one man band approach...which it sounds like you are.

Personally, I'm really considering going the Mac Powerbook G4 route and either the Protools Mbox or Logic Pro 7 with the M Audio 410 Firewire unit (has phantom power too so I can hook up a condenser mic for ambient miking). I too am taking the one man band route.

For Drums, you might consider BFD, DR008, or Drumkit from Hell. Those seem to be the best. Or you could go the drum loops route. Acid would work here, but not on a Mac.

For midi keyboard, you can even look into freeware at www.kvraudio.com. There is lots of free softsynths, plugins, and stuff there.

All in all, do some research, download demo versions, test out yourself. It's a hard decision, but a fun one at that!

best of luck! Let us know what you decide on!

Mag

[Gerry]

Thanks all, great advice that I can use, saved me a lot of time!
Also, a refreshing depth of knowledge without 'attitude' here, I've noticed also in most of the other recording forums, too (as opposed to guitar amplifier forums)...too little time to wonder why ;) .

[MagnumSSS]

yeah, I learned a lot in recent weeks at homerecording.com forum. It's a great resource, but some folks there can be pushy and argumentative too often. It's a great forum, but a little "tough" at times.

[straticus]

Originally posted by tedm
I bought it too, it's an older version "G7" or something, only supports 16-bits, not 24-bits.

Hmmm ......... the version I bought supports 24 bit and it's a killer sounding and very stable app. Not 32 bit float though. You need Samplitude for that.

BC :)

EDIT:
You got me wondering so out of curiosity I checked the Magix web site and it does support 32 bit float. Dang, that's pretty cool for a relatively low cost recording app. It also has the freeze function. That's something else I didn't know.

People, don't get caught up in the "name recognition" thing. This is a very nice recording app. with great support and well worth looking into. It has a lot to offer. Check out the features here (click on the link then on Music > Music Studio Deluxe 2005 > Features) http://site.magix.net/index.php?id=411 and then try the demo.


BC :)

[tedm]

The version I have ($19 from GC) supports only 16 bits PHYSICAL in.

Internal 24- and 32-bit floating support are great, but without 24-bit PHYSICAL to get the sound onto the computer at 24-bit resolution, it's not as useful as the free utils that came with my sound card.


Originally posted by straticus
Hmmm ......... the version I bought supports 24 bit and it's a killer sounding and very stable app. Not 32 bit float though. You need Samplitude for that.

BC :)

EDIT:
You got me wondering so out of curiosity I checked the Magix web site and it does support 32 bit float. Dang, that's pretty cool for a relatively low cost recording app. It also has the freeze function. That's something else I didn't know.

People, don't get caught up in the "name recognition" thing. This is a very nice recording app. with great support and well worth looking into. It has a lot to offer. Check out the features here (click on the link then on Music > Music Studio Deluxe 2005 > Features) http://site.magix.net/index.php?id=411 and then try the demo.


BC :)

[OneMileWish]

Not to hijack the thread, but...

I hadn't realized that Digidesign had done so much with Pro Tools 6.x for the Windows operating system. That's rather cool, I was hesitating on grabbing an MBox to work with on my PC when the mac isn't around (it's my singer/roommate's gear).

Thanks for the info :)

Dan.