Dorian Scale Question

[Ben]

I am Studying this book. Guitar Soloing, The contemporary Guide to Improvisation by Gilbert Marlis. The book introduces the Dorian scale intervals and indicates it as the second mode of the major scale. I am good with that.

The book also says it will approach the Dorian scale as it's own entity which has it's own set of chords and sounds. This is supposed to let the player become familiar with the sounds and tendencies of the scale/mode. The book says the Dorian scale is a minor tonality and may be used from the root of a minor chord. It also said it (Dorian) should be used when the IV cord in the minor tonality is a major triad or dominate chord.

The book then shows a vamp of Cm7 and F7 on a staff with the key signature of Bb. and says I chould use the Dorian scale located at the key center (C in this case) to solo over this vamp. The book indicates the Cm7 as the i chord and the F7 as the IV chord.

Here is my problem, Isn't this getting a bit complicated and contorted. What is the value of looking at this as C Dorian instead of Bb major scale with a ii V progression and a tonal center of C. I know I am missing something, what is it?

And while I am on the subject, why have a natural minor scale when there is a relative major that works just fine. It looks as if the Natural Minor is discussed only to set the stage for discussing the harmonic and melodic minor scales.

[lhallam]

You're not missing a thing. Both methods are valid.

In this case the i chord is a C minor so he's probably just pointing out that you can use a dorian (minor type of mode) over a minor chord. Try playing Moondance, Oye Como Va, Whipping Post or In Memory of Elizabeth Reed in A min and the A dorian works over all of them.

Also the C dorian is akin to the F mixolydian which works over the F9 chord. In other words (assuming your playing in 8th position), start on the F on the A string and play the same notes as the C dorian and you're playing F mixolydian.

As for the minor scale and or any other mode. The character of a scale is defined by the intervals between each scale degree. In the case of diatonic scales, it's where the half-steps and whole steps fall.

C major the 1/2 steps fall between 3-4 and 7-8 scale degrees which gives you that "Doe a deer" happy sound.

On a natural minor the 1/2 steps fall between the 2-3 and 5-6 scale degrees which give it that "sad, melancholy" sound.

Some greek (Pythagoris?) wrote a treatise on the proper mode to play at a function. For example, they may have only played ionian at weddings and aeolian at funerals.

[Tom Gross]

I believe one should be able to see the modes both ways.

I believe what the approach is driving at is looking at a Cmin7-F7 vamp as in a Dorian key - with resolution to the Cm not the Bb Major sound.

It;s about the sound. Of course technically if you harmonize the dorian mode, you'll get the same chords & arpeggios as from the root major, but it's about sound and feel. Are "Little Wing" and "Evil Ways" both in G? No - Little Wing is in Em, and Evil Ways is in A Dorian.

Listen.

[Mark C]

The relative minor is a natural minor scale. Relative means that the scale has a related Major scale. Example - C major and Aminor. C major contains the notes CDEFGAB. A natural minor contains the notes ABCDEFG. Same notes, different starting point which gives different intervals. This means you can use either position as a basis for soloing over either C major or A minor, as long as you know which notes are strong tensions to land on. All twelve major scales have a relative natural minor scale. Hope this helps.

[lhallam]

Originally posted by Tom Gross
Are "Little Wing" and "Evil Ways" both in G? No - Little Wing is in Em, and Evil Ways is in A Dorian.

Listen.

Just for further clarity, Tom is pointing out that both songs have the same key signature, ie F# but use a different tonic. Thereby changing the 1/2 step whole step relationship per scale degree which changes the character of the scale.

[Ben]

Suppose I am listening to a song like Evil Ways. I can easily find the chords. How then do I know/Recognize it is A Dorian?

[lhallam]

Originally posted by Ben
Suppose I am listening to a song like Evil Ways. I can easily find the chords. How then do I know/Recognize it is A Dorian?

First and foremost, as Tom said: "Listen".

Also the secret mystic Santana chord progression is Am to D.
A-C-E
D-F#-A

A minor scale = no sharps or flats
D major scale = F# & C#

The C# won't sound right over the A minor chord but the F# sounds cool.

Moondance and In Memory of Elizabeth Reed are basically Am Bm Cmajor7. Whippin Post is Am-Bm-C.

Am = a-c-e
Bm = b-d-f#
Cmaj7 = c-e-g-b

Note the F#.

"A" dorian is related to a "C" lydian mode which works over the CMaj7 chord, which is perfectly acceptable in be-bop.

Seeing a pattern?

Learn Miles Davis "So What".

In jazz, dorian mode works over just about any minor 7th chord but as Tom said, "Listen".

[Ben]

Thanks
Here is what I get.
First and for most listen. I'll have to work on listening.

Second for the AmBmC progression
I look at the notes in the chords.
I get abcdef#g with the root at "A", this is A-Dorian

For the AmD progression. This is the same i iv vamp example I started with. Also the chords give a_cdef#_ the missing notes are b and g, again A-Dorian.

Options for these progressions are limited to minor scales. The A-Aeolian 1-M2-m3-p4-p5-m6-b7 or A Phrygian 1-m2-m3-p4-p5-m6-b7 don't work because of the major 6th note F#, in the Bm and D chords.

Did I get it right? or miss anything?

[Mark C]

Originally posted by Ben
Thanks
Here is what I get.
First and for most listen. I'll have to work on listening.

Second for the AmBmC progression
I look at the notes in the chords.
I get abcdef#g with the root at "A", this is A-Dorian

For the AmD progression. This is the same i iv vamp example I started with. Also the chords give a_cdef#_ the missing notes are b and g, again A-Dorian.

Options for these progressions are limited to minor scales. The A-Aeolian 1-M2-m3-p4-p5-m6-b7 or A Phrygian 1-m2-m3-p4-p5-m6-b7 don't work because of the major 6th note F#, in the Bm and D chords.

Did I get it right? or miss anything?

Ah grasshopper, you are learning!:D You're on the right track, just remember that this is the basis. Try other notes outside the scale as well, mainly as passing tones or leading tones to the notes you are trying to land on (passing tone is when you play two notes a whole step apart and throw in the note in the middle. Leading tone is when you approach a strong note with in the chord from a half step below) Remember that your ear is still the most important thing - if you think it sounds good, it is good no matter what the books say.

[KRosser]

Originally posted by Ben
I am Studying this book. Guitar Soloing, The contemporary Guide to Improvisation by Gilbert Marlis.

Look closely - I'll betcha anything that's actually "Dan Gilbert and Beth Marlis"

You've had lotsa good answers here, but just to recap vis a vis my own feelings on this - you're gonna phrase your lines differently if you're viewing it as a C dorian than you are if you're just thinking Bb major starting on C. Plus, once you learn to see the dorian as a minor scale with a raised sixth, then you start to hear those sounds as being distinctly 'dorian' as well. It's worth the extra effort.

[littlemoon]

Originally posted by KRosser
Look closely - I'll betcha anything that's actually "Dan Gilbert and Beth Marlis"

* * *
Good call. It's gotta be. Two of GIT's finest.

littlemoon

[harryjmic]

I think some of the stuff out there is over complicated but sometimes useful. I think the idea of learning modes is important but overrated, it is useful to help break out of pattern playing though. IMHO, what all musicians generally do is fall into patterns, due to habit, muscle memory etc. By learning different modes your fingers will end up on notes you normally have not accented thus creating different sounds. How many musicians have you heard at the guitar stores play the exact same riffs. It's the layout of the instrument and the relationship the individual has with it. Your starting with Dorian now, but once you feel comfortable with this move on to all the modes over the same Cm7 F7 progression. Play Gm, A locrian etc. do it all. I remember reading what John Mclaughlin said about modes, he said, "The most important thing to learn is what notes make the mode sound the way it does" i.e. each mode has a flavor and what notes in the scale give the mode it's unique personality. This is the hard part. Don't forget chromatic notes.

Try this out, play your Cm7 F7 progression and play any note on the guitar over this progression. The key is to play everything exactly in time, maybe start off with simple 1/8th notes. You should find almost everything will sound good within reason. Sure some notes will sound better then others but none of them should sound awful, it's all about the time. A lot of the great musicians (Charlie Parker, for example) could play anything over a chord and it would sound great, but they studied, listened and played, played, played until it became second nature, this is when the music happened. Good luck, it's a lot of fun and once you get a couple of "Now I see" experiences you will be begging for more.

[lhallam]

Ben, you haven't gotten anything wrong.

These are all good answers.

You can play the aeolian and phrygian over those progressions but as others have said, it needs to be in context.

If you were my student I would have you concentrate on the dorian mode for a bit before trying some of the other ideas.

Try this modal idea using D dorian:

||: dm / / / | dm / / / | Cmaj / / / | Cmaj / / / | dm / / / | dm / / / | Cmaj / / / | dm / / / :||

Recognize it? It's an old sea shanty.

[Ben]

Littlemoon, It is Dan Gilbert and Beth Marlis. I made a typo and left out the "and" between the names. I really like the Book, but it could use a few more words of explanation here and there. I have been using the info on the web to fill in the blanks. Sometimes I see what looks like a casual comment in this book. I later find that subject described on the internet in several pages of text and examples. It turns out I almost miss the point they were trying to make, because it was a simple statement without explanation. The book also has some examples that need more explanation.

If anyone has the book please see page 147, "Key Center Playing in Minor Tonality Chord Progressions that Use Triad Harmony" It says I should play the example in fig.4. Watch the quality of the IV and V chords and note where (over what chords) the Dorian, Natural Minor and Harmonic Minor are played. I look at the music and I see no V chord. I would love to have the answer and explanation behind this example.

I would post the music here for all to see but that's a lot of work. For the people without a book. First Progression is Cm Fm Ab Bb with Key signature E. The second progression is Am D G Am G with Key signature C. What would you play over these progressions?

[littlemoon]

Originally posted by Ben
Littlemoon, It is Dan Gilbert and Beth Marlis. I made a typo and left out the "and" between the names. I really like the Book, but it could use a few more words of explanation here and there. I have been using the info on the web to fill in the blanks. Sometimes I see what looks like a casual comment in this book. I later find that subject described on the internet in several pages of text and examples. It turns out I almost miss the point they were trying to make, because it was a simple statement without explanation. The book also has some examples that need more explanation.

* * *
I know exactly what you mean about the "casual comments." Don Mock does this a lot in his books, and it drives me crazy. He drops these little pearls of wisdom - these keys to open a locked door to a parallel universe - along the way, and it's so easy to overlook some of them and miss the big picture. So now I read every sentence as if it might have something profound to say.

littlemoon

[lhallam]

Originally posted by Ben
Littlemoon, It is Dan Gilbert and Beth Marlis. I made a typo and left out the "and" between the names. I really like the Book, but it could use a few more words of explanation here and there. I have been using the info on the web to fill in the blanks. Sometimes I see what looks like a casual comment in this book. I later find that subject described on the internet in several pages of text and examples. It turns out I almost miss the point they were trying to make, because it was a simple statement without explanation. The book also has some examples that need more explanation.

If anyone has the book please see page 147, "Key Center Playing in Minor Tonality Chord Progressions that Use Triad Harmony" It says I should play the example in fig.4. Watch the quality of the IV and V chords and note where (over what chords) the Dorian, Natural Minor and Harmonic Minor are played. I look at the music and I see no V chord. I would love to have the answer and explanation behind this example.

I would post the music here for all to see but that's a lot of work. For the people without a book. First Progression is Cm Fm Ab Bb with Key signature E. The second progression is Am D G Am G with Key signature C. What would you play over these progressions?

From what I can glean out of your post:

Cm Fm Ab Bb would be key of Eb. The V chord would be Bb.

Am D G Am G in C, the V chord would be G.

[Ed DeGenaro]

Originally posted by lhallam
From what I can glean out of your post:

Cm Fm Ab Bb would be key of Eb. The V chord would be Bb.

Am D G Am G in C, the V chord would be G. I might be missing something here...but the second example would be G with the V chord being D.

[Ed DeGenaro]

Originally posted by Ben
Littlemoon, It is Dan Gilbert and Beth Marlis. I made a typo and left out the "and" between the names. I really like the Book, but it could use a few more words of explanation here and there. I have been using the info on the web to fill in the blanks. Sometimes I see what looks like a casual comment in this book. I later find that subject described on the internet in several pages of text and examples. It turns out I almost miss the point they were trying to make, because it was a simple statement without explanation. The book also has some examples that need more explanation.

If anyone has the book please see page 147, "Key Center Playing in Minor Tonality Chord Progressions that Use Triad Harmony" It says I should play the example in fig.4. Watch the quality of the IV and V chords and note where (over what chords) the Dorian, Natural Minor and Harmonic Minor are played. I look at the music and I see no V chord. I would love to have the answer and explanation behind this example.

I would post the music here for all to see but that's a lot of work. For the people without a book. First Progression is Cm Fm Ab Bb with Key signature E. The second progression is Am D G Am G with Key signature C. What would you play over these progressions?
The IV and V are the ones that easily define the key center.
Say you have C and D, chances are that you're dealing with G, since that's where they happen as the IV and V.
In order to figured out modes, which I really think is more a hindrance than help in the beginning. You do this...
Put it against an A bass pedal. So, now you got the IV and V chord of G against your "home" of A....instant dorian.
Put it against E...and you have aeolian, against B and you have phrygian.
Makes sense?

[lhallam]

Originally posted by Ed DeGenaro
I might be missing something here...but the second example would be G with the V chord being D.

Right Ed, his original post said key of C so that's where I got the C from.

Plus in context of the 1st example it seemed logical.

Should have paid a closer attention.

Ben, Ed is correct, that's most likely ii-V-I in G. BTW - That would make the key signature F# not C (no sharps or flats)

[sirN]

One thing I've read that helps with learning the dorian mode is to play a minor pent scale and add the natural 6th, since the 6th is the only difference between the dorian and the natural minor (aolean). Adding it to a familiar scale such as the minor pent, made it easier to grasp (for me anyway).

[lhallam]

Originally posted by sirN
One thing I've read that helps with learning the dorian mode is to play a minor pent scale and add the natural 6th, since the 6th is the only difference between the dorian and the natural minor (aolean). Adding it to a familiar scale such as the minor pent, made it easier to grasp (for me anyway).

I'm not clear what you are saying.

A aeolian:
a-b-c-d-e-f-g
1-2-3-4-5-6-7

A dorian:
a-b-c-d-e-f#-g
1-2-3-4-5-6-7

The natural sixth ( f ) is raised up one 1/2 step in dorian ( f#).

Also, are you talking about a hexatonic (6 note) scale such as Dickie Betts often uses?

[Ben]

Thanks again for the help.
So now everyone wants to look at the key and identify the V chord. That's where I started this thread. Why not just use the key and forget about the modes. But the book I am using treats each mode as its own scale. And when they say look at the V chord they mean relative to the tonal center not relative to the root of the key.

The first progression CmFmAbBb, is in the key of Eb but the tonal center is C so we look at it as the C minor scale (C D Eb F G Ab Bb). The chords CmFmAbBb all naturally fit the scale so playing C-Aeolian/C-minor works fine over all chords. The trick here is there is no 5th (G) chord used in the progression.

I have gotten along a little further in the book and I see why they take this approach. (I hope I ge this right) When playing in a minor scale, the scale frequently changes in the song. Say your playing a song in C Minor. When then you hit the IV chord (relative to the minor tonal center) if it is a major (F) or dominate 7 (F7) A-Dorian works well over the chord. And on the V chord (relative to the minor tonal center), if it is a major (G) or dominate 7 (G7) the A-harmonic minor works well.

Here is an example:
C Minor scale (C D Eb F G Ab Bb)
Chords
Cm = C Eb G
Fm = F Ab C
Ab = Ab C Eb
Bb = Bb D F so all the notes of the chords are found in the scale.

But if the G chord were used, G = G B D, and the B note is not in the C minor scale. So, use C-Harmonic Minor (C D Eb F G Ab B) over the G(GBD) chord. It also works if G7(GBDF) is used. It works because the B is the Major 3rd of the G chord.

Suppose the 4th chord Fm was F(FAC) or F7(FACEb) then use C-Dorian (C D Eb F G A Bb)

This is the way the minor tonality is presented. There have other tools presented such as arpeggios, applications of Bules and pentatonic scale etc. I am sure there is a combination of chords where Phrygian would best fit, but it wasn't presented in the book.

[Tom Gross]

Originally posted by Ben
.... Why not just use the key and forget about the modes. ....
Because it sounds bad. If you "just play G maj over Am7-D7-GM7" it will not sound as good. It is very difficult to explain using theory math - cause it gets back to the original problem (as you state).

The thing Ed mentioned:
Originally posted by Ed DeGenaro
The IV and V are the ones that easily define the key center.
Say you have C and D, chances are that you're dealing with G, since that's where they happen as the IV and V.
In order to figured out modes, which I really think is more a hindrance than help in the beginning. You do this...
Put it against an A bass pedal. So, now you got the IV and V chord of G against your "home" of A....instant dorian.
Put it against E...and you have aeolian, against B and you have phrygian.
Makes sense?

Helped me a lot in hearing the flavor of each mode - I got it off of Gambale's video. It isn't much help in improvising (composing maybe), but the point is to find stresses, points of tension & release, passing notes, slides & bends, timing, mood, etc., so you don't sound like you're just playing up and down the major scale all day while the chords are changing behind you. The chords are changing for a reason, aren't they?

[esw]

Also the secret mystic Santana chord progression is Am to D.

LOL... makes me want to break out "Shut Up and Play Yer Guitar"

[sirN]

Ihallum, I blew it by saying Natural sixth. I meant a non flattened sixth. For A, the sixth is F#, but we flatten it to just the F for Am.

Since too many players learn to play an Am pentatonic (A, C, D, E, G), I've found that by adding the non flattened 6th (F#), you can get a slightly easier way of breaking into the Dorian mode. Of course, it takes more than this, but it's a start.

[lhallam]

Originally posted by sirN
Ihallum, I blew it by saying Natural sixth. I meant a non flattened sixth. For A, the sixth is F#, but we flatten it to just the F for Am.

Since too many players learn to play an Am pentatonic (A, C, D, E, G), I've found that by adding the non flattened 6th (F#), you can get a slightly easier way of breaking into the Dorian mode. Of course, it takes more than this, but it's a start.

Gotcha. If I don't understand what a person is saying, I'll ask them.

Agreed, the one step at a time approach is typically beneficial.

FWIW - That's a hexatonic scale. The Allman Brothers used it extensively as well as the dorian.

[harryjmic]

I noticed a problem with an earlier post an would like to clairify it if possible. The progression Cm, Fm, A flat and B flat listed as being in Cm or E flat is correct. I don't have a problem with this but if you were to stay diatonic, the G chord played would not be major it would be minor. Since the 3rd of E flat is minor in nature, the G would have to be G minor to remain diatonic to the E flat key signature. You could play a G major if you wanted to but as you said earlier the scale would have to change in order to account for the B natural.

Cm and E flat are relative to each other in the key center of E flat. The 1 chord is E flat, the 4 chord is A flat and the 5 chord is B flat. In C minor the 1 is Cm, the 4 is Fm and the 5 is Gm. Relate these all to E flat and you get 1=E flat, 2=Fm, 3=Gm, 4=A flat, 5=B flat, 6=Cm. All you need is the 7th degree or Dm7 flat 5 to complete the picture. Since Dm7 flat 5 is essentially Fm6 you already have the chord outlined above in the second degree of the scale.

Think about the function of the chord in the song and the melody note that is played over it, I cannot stress this enough. This determines what you can or cannot play. The theory of chord playing is just that, theory, nothing more. Check out jazz standards and the heavy cats, Miles, Mingus, Coltrane, Monk, etc. for more chord theory and rule breaking.

I know "Stella by Starlight" is a good jazz standard. Somewhere in there your supposed to play a Fm or Cm, I'm sorry I can't remember for sure, (it is early in the song). If you try to play the chord as outlined you'll get screwed because the melody note is a 4th or something. I wish I could remember the exact change, but the point is, "What the melody and the progression lead you to is the important part, not what the theory should be". The greatest jazz guitarist of all time, Wes Montgomery never had lessons, he just used his ears. You know what, people couldn't get enough of him and his unorthodoxed technique. I hope all this helps you to understand the whys of chords and modes. All I know is, the more I play, the less I seem to know.

[Ben]

harryjmic,
It looks to me like your right on all points. The melody note is the key to determine what can be played. This was just one approach to soloing over a minor tonality chord progression where the key changes to buid more tension. The other approaches included the use of the blues scale, minor pentatonic and arpeggios.

This approach has helped me tune my ear and become more creative. This is all still a little new to me. I know there is a lot more to learn. The book does not get in to a discussion of Jazz, but does acknowledge the use of the out of key notes. I have read that the b5 and #11 are out of key notes used in jazz. If so I think the bules scale gets these.

My next area of study will be Jazz.

Thanks for the help!

[lookslikemeband]

This thread ROCKS!!!

I never find myself using the Dorian mode, mainly because of it's unique voicing (to MY ears).

To be honest, I'm musically trained, yet I NEVER think about this stuff unless I'm soloing (to make sure I'm in the right key;etc)

And BTW... THIS THREAD is the #1 reason why drummers don't visit this site!!! :p :D

Lance

[mtfingers]

Modal thinking is often way too complicated for what we are trying to do, and most of the time, unnecessary. In the first example (Cm7-F7), Cm is NOT the I, but is the II of Bb. This is a simple II-V, as we say in jazz, and it is in the key of Bb. There is nothing really modal about it, except for the fact that the notes of the Cm arp fit better as landing notes over this particular chord progression.

The V chord tells you the key. In the example above, you can see that F7 is the V of Bb. If you can't readily do this, look at the guitar, that is what I do. Whatever the V chord is, the root is on the same fret up one string (except between the G and B strings, of course). This makes life very easy. Also, compare everything to a major scale. This will simplify your life on the guitar greatly :)

In the Moondance example,though (Am-Bm-Cmaj) there is no dominant (V) chord, so how do you tell? Well, you can pretty safely assume that if you have two consecutive minor chords (Am-Bm in this case) that the first one is the II of the key. In this case, it is. See that?

Also, you are right about the relative minor being the same as the major, but you really must see the landing notes different for the minors. This is also called the Aolean mode for all you mode guys out there, but why even complicate it that much? As long as you see the forms as being the same, and you can readily start on any note of any given form, there should be no problem. Relative minor=Natural minor=Aolean mode.

An interesting thing to see about the four mostly used minor scales (nat. min., har.min., mel.min.,and dorian min.) is that the only notes that change are the 6 and the 7. One easy way to create instant modes (I call them sounds...like a mel min sound, for instance) is to just see the pentatonic, and adjust for the sound (mode you want), which would mean changing the 7 if necessary, and adding the appropriate 6. I also see the scales surrounding any given pentatonic, and there are four base scales that I see. In other words, you can use an Am pent., say for instance, over:

1.) Am sound
2.) Cmaj sound
3.) Dm9 sound
4.) Fmaj9 sound

I also like to use the Am pent over Bb lydian sound and Ab alt. dom, but this might be taking things a bit too far for this discussion,


All in all, it is much easier to see theory based around key centers, rather than modally.

[Dave LaP]

Originally posted by Tom Gross
Because it sounds bad. If you "just play G maj over Am7-D7-GM7" it will not sound as good. It is very difficult to explain using theory math - cause it gets back to the original problem (as you state).

The thing Ed mentioned:


Helped me a lot in hearing the flavor of each mode - I got it off of Gambale's video. It isn't much help in improvising (composing maybe), but the point is to find stresses, points of tension & release, passing notes, slides & bends, timing, mood, etc., so you don't sound like you're just playing up and down the major scale all day while the chords are changing behind you. The chords are changing for a reason, aren't they?

I agree. To go back to the original question: I find it more meaningful to know how the notes I'm playing relate to the chord being played at the time than how those notes relate to the tonal center.

The example was, I believe Gm to C. Should you think G Dorian or the actual key of F when playing? When I'm playing an A over the Gm it's more useful to me to know that it's a 9 of the G Dorian than a 3 of F maj. So to me, it works better to think in terms of the mode than the parent key.

[mtfingers]

Well, you're not really relating to the mode, but rather to the arpeggio here. This is the way I see things too. I don't look at the G minor scale like a G major scale with a b3 and b7, though, as one would do when thinking modally. I think II of F. That is so much easier, and gives the same results.

[Tag]

Originally posted by Ben
.... Why not just use the key and forget about the modes. ....




Because the chords FUNCTION differently. In G Major, you only have to look at TWO modes, or scales. You can not look at just G major, and here is why. The I-III and VI chords are all exactly the same. Just play G Major over all of them. This is because they all are TONIC chords. Places of rest. All the chord tones in those three chords will sound resolved when phrased to them. Now the II-IV-V and VII chords are DOMINANT chords. They all pull your ear BACK to the first three chords. You can use A Dorian over all of them, for the purest, most natural sounding tones to the ear.
There are only TWO sounds in every key you can play in. Tonic and Dominant. Once your ear is trained, and you can hear the resolutions really well, you then can just play in the key, because your ear will guide you to the correct tones, but that takes a LONG time! In the beginning, if you learn just your major scale, and dorian scale, you can cover almost anything. Modally, it looks like this. In the key of G Maj.... G Ionian, B Phyrigian, and E Aolean are the EXACT same thing. They all give you resting sounds. Then, A Dorian, C Lydian, D Mixolydian and F# Locrean all give you the SAME sound. They all are Dominant, and pull your ear back to the tonic areas. You need to learn some basic jazz lines and melodys that outline the basic chord. This is what gives the chord its color, and spells out its function within the chord progression. Very simple. TWO SOUNDS ONLY! Resting, or pulling you back. Once you have this down, you can start to add different colors and more advanced scales and colors, but you have to have this down first. :)

[Ed DeGenaro]

Originally posted by Tag
Originally posted by Ben
.... Why not just use the key and forget about the modes. ....




Because the chords FUNCTION differently. In G Major, you only have to look at TWO modes, or scales. You can not look at just G major, and here is why. The I-III and VI chords are all exactly the same. Just play G Major over all of them. This is because they all are TONIC chords. Places of rest. All the chord tones in those three chords will sound resolved when phrased to them. Now the II-IV-V and VII chords are DOMINANT chords. They all pull your ear BACK to the first three chords. You can use A Dorian over all of them, for the purest, most natural sounding tones to the ear.
There are only TWO sounds in every key you can play in. Tonic and Dominant. Once your ear is trained, and you can hear the resolutions really well, you then can just play in the key, because your ear will guide you to the correct tones, but that takes a LONG time! In the beginning, if you learn just your major scale, and dorian scale, you can cover almost anything. Modally, it looks like this. In the key of G Maj.... G Ionian, B Phyrigian, and E Aolean are the EXACT same thing. They all give you resting sounds. Then, A Dorian, C Lydian, D Mixolydian and F# Locrean all give you the SAME sound. They all are Dominant, and pull your ear back to the tonic areas. You need to learn some basic jazz lines and melodys that outline the basic chord. This is what gives the chord its color, and spells out its function within the chord progression. Very simple. TWO SOUNDS ONLY! Resting, or pulling you back. Once you have this down, you can start to add different colors and more advanced scales and colors, but you have to have this down first. :) Just as your approach with using the I and ii mode over all the chords assumes your ear know where to reolve to, as does using the I mode.

[Tag]

Originally posted by Ed DeGenaro
Just as your approach with using the I and ii mode over all the chords assumes your ear know where to reolve to, as does using the I mode.

Ed,
Its different. When you play over the II mode, ( Dorian or any dominant mode, they are all the same) all the chord tones and the SOUNDS of those groups of chords are "right". You actually do not have to use your ear as much, because all the notes in those chords leave you in the dominant area, and are correct. Then it goes to the I chord, and you are free to use the I-III-VI chord to resolve to. (All tonic chords, and the simple major scale works on all of them). Also, all the chord tones work, so the natural resolution happens without you even having to HEAR it! This, IMO, is the entire key to becoming a tasteful player FAST. It also trains your ear, so that you do hear the right tones, and in time, you do not have to "chase" the chord changes. Richie hart use to always tell me that the great intermediate players stioll "chast" the chords. Once you do not do that any more, and can play over the most advanced changes strictly by ear, you are a master of the instrument. That takes YEARS of hard work. If you just play on the one chord, and do not make the right choices, you sound like $hit. In other words, if you outline a tonic chord in a Dominant area, it just sounds wrong. Likewise, if you outline a dominant chord over a tonic area, it sounds wrong. Of course once you can hear it all clearly, then you can go back and forth between the two at will. It takes a while to get to that point however.

[Ed DeGenaro]

Originally posted by Tag
Ed,
Its different. When you play over the II mode, ( Dorian or any dominant mode, they are all the same) all the chord tones and the SOUNDS of those groups of chords are "right". You actually do not have to use your ear as much, because all the notes in those chords leave you in the dominant area, and are correct. Then it goes to the I chord, and you are free to use the I-III-VI chord to resolve to. (All tonic chords, and the simple major scale works on all of them). Also, all the chord tones work, so the natural resolution happens without you even having to HEAR it! This, IMO, is the entire key to becoming a tasteful player FAST. It also trains your ear, so that you do hear the right tones, and in time, you do not have to "chase" the chord changes. Richie hart use to always tell me that the great intermediate players stioll "chast" the chords. Once you do not do that any more, and can play over the most advanced changes strictly by ear, you are a master of the instrument. That takes YEARS of hard work. If you just play on the one chord, and do not make the right choices, you sound like $hit. In other words, if you outline a tonic chord in a Dominant area, it just sounds wrong. Likewise, if you outline a dominant chord over a tonic area, it sounds wrong. Of course once you can hear it all clearly, then you can go back and forth between the two at will. It takes a while to get to that point however.
I don't see how...
A dorian=G major as far as the notes are concerned. So, whether I call what I play over D7 A dorian or Gmajor has no bearing on what notes I resolve to.
All the chord tones work in either case. Unless we;re talking about something completely different note wise there is no difference between dorian and major this way. And as I said it assumes you know what to do with it.

I'm not talking about function but about the initial question about why not just use mode I since the notes are the same.
If you want to play inide over Em7-A7 E dorian or D major makes no difference. You can't just dispense of 5 modes. But keep two becuase they are more "important".

[Ed DeGenaro]

Originally posted by Dave LaP
I agree. To go back to the original question: I find it more meaningful to know how the notes I'm playing relate to the chord being played at the time than how those notes relate to the tonal center.

The example was, I believe Gm to C. Should you think G Dorian or the actual key of F when playing? When I'm playing an A over the Gm it's more useful to me to know that it's a 9 of the G Dorian than a 3 of F maj. So to me, it works better to think in terms of the mode than the parent key.
Again, it's assumed you know how to make the "parent" scale work over a given chord. otherwise it's gonna sound weak.
But when you're an intermediate player and trying to improve it's IMO a lot easier to think say F major scale to Eb major scale if you have for example four bars of this...
Gm-C-|F---|Fm-Bb-|Eb---|
By the time you figure G dorian, C mixolydian the thing is over.

[Tag]

Originally posted by Ed DeGenaro
Again, it's assumed you know how to make the "parent" scale work over a given chord. otherwise it's gonna sound weak.
But when you're an intermediate player and trying to improve it's IMO a lot easier to think say F major scale to Eb major scale if you have for example four bars of this...
Gm-C-|F---|Fm-Bb-|Eb---|
By the time you figure G dorian, C mixolydian the thing is over.

Forget Mixolydian. C Mixo is the same as G Dorian which is the same as Bb Lydian and the same as E locrian. All dominant areas, and those are all interchangable at any time. 1 Bar of G Dorian, One bar of F Maj. Then one bar of F Dorian, one bar of Eb Maj.
Look at it this way. If I was comping chords behind you on that, (just the first, part Gmin7-C7-FMaj7) the first time I may play just what you have. Gm-C7-Fmaj7. The second time around, I would play BbMaj7- Emin7b5- Dmin7. the third time, I would playEmin7b5-Bb7-Amin7. The last one is a bit more advanced, but you would only have to play one measure of G Dorian and one measure of F maj to cover ALL of those changes! They all function the SAME way! Now look at that and see how much simpler that is. Now again, you need to learn lines that outline the chords, and not just "licks". The licks will work, but they will not flow you through the chords. They will be "on top" of the chords instead. Not as melodic or musical. Its nice to mix them both up. thats Robben Ford and Carltons strengths.

[Ed DeGenaro]

Originally posted by Tag
Forget Mixolydian. C Mixo is the same as G Dorian which is the same as Bb Lydian and the same as E locrian. All dominant areas, and those are all interchangable at any time. 1 Bar of G Dorian, One bar of F Maj. Then one bar of F Dorian, one bar of Eb Maj.
Look at it this way. If I was comping chords behind you on that, (just the first, part Gmin7-C7-FMaj7) the first time I may play just what you have. Gm-C7-Fmaj7. The second time around, I would play BbMaj7- Emin7b5- Dmin7. the third time, I would playEmin7b5-Bb7-Amin7. The last one is a bit more advanced, but you would only have to play one measure of G Dorian and one measure of F maj to cover ALL of those changes! They all function the SAME way! Now look at that and see how much simpler that is. Now again, you need to learn lines that outline the chords, and not just "licks". The licks will work, but they will not flow you through the chords. They will be "on top" of the chords instead. Not as melodic or musical. Its nice to mix them both up. thats Robben Ford and Carltons strengths.
I'm aware of that. But this isn't what we're talking about. You break down everything to dorian and major. In your approach G dorian has no different sound than F major. I'm not talking about obvious subs. But if you insist that you can use G dorian interchangeably over the C, the you might as well use F major.
We're not talking about how to make it hip. merely about the intnterchangebility of the modes...AS LONG AS YOU'RE AWARE of their internal relation ship to the harmony behind it.

Now to your subs, that all depends on contect. You outline ii-V-- in Aminor or a ii-V-I in F it'll sound a hell of a lot less convincing unless you want it to sound Jazz-ish.

[Tag]

Originally posted by Ed DeGenaro
In your approach G dorian has no different sound than F major. But if you insist that you can use G dorian interchangeably over the C, the you might as well use F major.


My entire point is that G Dorian has NOTHING to do with F Major!
If you are playing ove G Dorian, the notes in the chord that your ear hears as the standout notes are the F and Bb, Over the F Major7 chord, you will hear the E and A. 1\2 step apart is the strogest resolutiobn. They could not be more different.

[Ed DeGenaro]

Originally posted by Tag
My entire point is that G Dorian has NOTHING to do with F Major!
If you are playing ove G Dorian, the notes in the chord that your ear hears as the standout notes are the F and Bb, Over the F Major7 chord, you will hear the E and A. 1\2 step apart is the strogest resolutiobn. They could not be more different.
My point is that g dorian and F major are exactly the same notes, it's up to the player to use it so the listener can tell the difference.

[cameron]

I think you guys are just talking past each other. When Tag says "playing in G dorian" he doesn't mean simply pulling notes at random from the set of notes that comprise that mode. He means playing on and around the G Dorian chord , (a.k.a. Gmin7)

Likewise playing in F major means playing on and around the Fmaj7 chord.

If you play on and around the G dorian chord, you're going to be emphasizing the Bb. That's going to sound off if the underlying chord is Fmaj7. The fourth of the major scale is often called an "avoid" note, which of course doesn't mean you shouldn't play it, but that you shouldn't emphasize it.

[Ed DeGenaro]

Originally posted by cameron
I think you guys are just talking past each other. When Tag says "playing in G dorian" he doesn't mean simply pulling notes at random from the set of notes that comprise that mode. He means playing on and around the G Dorian chord , (a.k.a. Gmin7)

Likewise playing in F major means playing on and around the Fmaj7 chord.

If you play on and around the G dorian chord, you're going to be emphasizing the Bb. That's going to sound off if the underlying chord is Fmaj7. The fourth of the major scale is often called an "avoid" note, which of course doesn't mean you shouldn't play it, but that you shouldn't emphasize it.
I understand, point is though that the question was aked why not kust use one parent scale. Where Tag replied you can't...

[Tag]

Originally posted by Ed DeGenaro
My point is that g dorian and F major are exactly the same notes, it's up to the player to use it so the listener can tell the difference.


Ed,
It makes no difference that they are the same notes. Its the way you organize them right? We agree on that. When you play G Dorain over the G, it already organized them FOR YOU!! Now you are going to sound "right" no matter what you play! Then you go to G Major, and play your G major licks and lines. DONE! There are TONS of tasteful F Maj lines that will sound totally wrong played over G minor. There are tons of tasteful G minor lines that will sound totally wrong if played over F Major. How is that possible if the notes do not matter? You said they are all the same notes, right? Tasteful G Dorian lines and licks always sound right over G minor, Bb major 7, E min7b5 and C7. They will almost always sound bad against F maj, A min7 and D-7. Tasteful F Maj7 lines will always sound great against FMaj7, Amin7 andDmin7. They will almost always sound wrong against G min7, D7, Bbmaj7 and Emin7b5.

[Ed DeGenaro]

Originally posted by Tag
My entire point is that G Dorian has NOTHING to do with F Major!
If you are playing ove G Dorian, the notes in the chord that your ear hears as the standout notes are the F and Bb, Over the F Major7 chord, you will hear the E and A. 1\2 step apart is the strogest resolutiobn. They could not be more different.
Tag, dorian is a mode. There is no Dorian as in chord. You may chose to approach it as a ii chord making G dorian the obvious mode choice. And from the qustion all the way up on this page, it has everything to do with F major. Namely that it's the second mode of it.
Just becuase you chose to approach it different does not make it wrong.

[Ed DeGenaro]

Originally posted by Tag
Ed,
It makes no difference that they are the same notes. Its the way you organize them right? We agree on that. When you play G Dorain over the G, it already organized them FOR YOU!! Now you are going to sound "right" no matter what you play! Then you go to G Major, and play your G major licks and lines. DONE! There are TONS of tasteful F Maj lines that will sound totally wrong played over G minor. There are tons of tasteful G minor lines that will sound totally wrong if played over F Major. How is that possible if the notes do not matter? You said they are all the same notes, right? Tasteful G Dorian lines and licks always sound right over G minor, Bb major 7, E min7b5 and C7. They will almost always sound bad against F maj, A min7 and D-7. Tasteful F Maj7 lines will always sound great against FMaj7, Amin7 andDmin7. They will almost always sound wrong against G min7, D7, Bbmaj7 and Emin7b5.
I understand. But he was talking about scalar usage not lines.
And that's where the problem in this discussion is.
That said I can make a drian line work over the related major just fine, just have to adjust it a tad.

[cameron]

Originally posted by Ed DeGenaro
I understand. But he was talking about scalar usage not lines.
And that's where the problem in this discussion is.
That said I can make a drian line work over the related major just fine, just have to adjust it a tad.

If you think "scale" then yes, all the modes of one scale are equivalent.

I guess the real point is that you shouldn't think "scale"; you should think "chord". And Tag's further point is that if you think "chord" then you can divide chords (in context) into two groups: tonic and dominant. Lines (not scales) based on chords within either of those groups can be superimposed on any chord from within that group. Since the major scale and the dorian mode each represent one of these groups, we can very broadly characterize any line as being either major or dorian.

If you really want to think "scale" try working in a melodic minor context. The chords built on that scale are much more freely substitutable for one another than in major scale harmony.

[Tag]

Originally posted by cameron
If you think "scale" then yes, all the modes of one scale are equivalent.

I guess the real point is that you shouldn't think "scale"; you should think "chord". And Tag's further point is that if you think "chord" then you can divide chords (in context) into two groups: tonic and dominant. Lines (not scales) based on chords within either of those groups can be superimposed on any chord from within that group. Since the major scale and the dorian mode each represent one of these groups, we can very broadly characterize any line as being either major or dorian.

If you really want to think "scale" try working in a melodic minor context. The chords built on that scale are much more freely substitutable for one another than in major scale harmony.


VERY GOOD! :)

[Ed DeGenaro]

Originally posted by cameron
If you think "scale" then yes, all the modes of one scale are equivalent.

I guess the real point is that you shouldn't think "scale"; you should think "chord". And Tag's further point is that if you think "chord" then you can divide chords (in context) into two groups: tonic and dominant. Lines (not scales) based on chords within either of those groups can be superimposed on any chord from within that group. Since the major scale and the dorian mode each represent one of these groups, we can very broadly characterize any line as being either major or dorian.

If you really want to think "scale" try working in a melodic minor context. The chords built on that scale are much more freely substitutable for one another than in major scale harmony.
Thanks for the hint...maybe now I can use more than a minor pentatonic...

[Ed DeGenaro]

Originally posted by Tag
Originally posted by Ben
.... Why not just use the key and forget about the modes. ....




Because the chords FUNCTION differently. In G Major, you only have to look at TWO modes, or scales. You can not look at just G major, and here is why. The I-III and VI chords are all exactly the same. Just play G Major over all of them. This is because they all are TONIC chords. Places of rest. All the chord tones in those three chords will sound resolved when phrased to them. Now the II-IV-V and VII chords are DOMINANT chords. They all pull your ear BACK to the first three chords. You can use A Dorian over all of them, for the purest, most natural sounding tones to the ear.
There are only TWO sounds in every key you can play in. Tonic and Dominant. Once your ear is trained, and you can hear the resolutions really well, you then can just play in the key, because your ear will guide you to the correct tones, but that takes a LONG time! In the beginning, if you learn just your major scale, and dorian scale, you can cover almost anything. Modally, it looks like this. In the key of G Maj.... G Ionian, B Phyrigian, and E Aolean are the EXACT same thing. They all give you resting sounds. Then, A Dorian, C Lydian, D Mixolydian and F# Locrean all give you the SAME sound. They all are Dominant, and pull your ear back to the tonic areas. You need to learn some basic jazz lines and melodys that outline the basic chord. This is what gives the chord its color, and spells out its function within the chord progression. Very simple. TWO SOUNDS ONLY! Resting, or pulling you back. Once you have this down, you can start to add different colors and more advanced scales and colors, but you have to have this down first. :)
This is the post I was referring to....

[mtfingers]

That's exactly how I see it. There is either a I or a II sound. There can be nothing else. Still, I don't view things in terms of modes when playing, but rather, key center. Lets take the Gm-C7-Fmaj7 example.

This is a simple II-V-I of F. Is the whole thing in the key of F? Yeah it is. Why think G dorian over the Gm chord? Ya just gotta think F KEY CENTER, and use the chords to make your melodic statement. Gm7 is a 4 note chord so there are only three notes you have to put around it to get a scale. Using the arpeggio of the chord, and then plopping notes down around that arp is the EASIEST way to stay in/close to key.

Advantages of key centers become more apparent when playing over chords NOT in the key center. For instance: Fmaj7 | D7 | Gm7 | C7 |

The D7 is not in the key. If you were to take an F scale and just change the notes of the scale that produced a D7 chord, you would get a G melodic minor scale, but why even think about it that much? Why not just think: "I'm hanging out in F, but when that D7 comes by, I want to hit an F#". ?

This is so easy and natural to me, I find it hard to believe that people would rather think modally.

[Tag]

Originally posted by mtfingers
That's exactly how I see it. There is either a I or a II sound. There can be nothing else.

Exactly the way I hear it! :) I call it tonic or dominant. Same thing, different name.

[mtfingers]

Yeah man, exactly the same. When playing II-V-I progressions, I don't even differentiate between the II and the V in most cases. There are some times when you want to make that sound, but mostly I just float over it. Since 90% of what I do is altered, though, I would not suggest that most people do this.

[Tag]

Originally posted by mtfingers
Yeah man, exactly the same. When playing II-V-I progressions, I don't even differentiate between the II and the V in most cases. There are some times when you want to make that sound, but mostly I just float over it. Since 90% of what I do is altered, though, I would not suggest that most people do this.

just like Joe Pass! I would love to get your take on this.... I include all the altered tones in the dominant areas. Whole tone, altered scale, diminished... all just names trying to group different altered sounds into a "scale". I never hear any great players staying within one of these "scales" very long. They are all mixed together to make musical lines. I am glad I know the "scale and mode" names, just so I can speak to guys who use them all the time. I have never heard Cannonball, Lee Morgan, Clifford Brown or any guys like that ever running up and down scales. It is a constant mixture of tones, either coloring the tonic area, (or in the dominant areas,) pulling you back to, or leading you to a new tonic area. Home or away from home. Thats all there is. When I was first able to hear this, is when I first began to understand and really hear the jazz language. It was very hard for me, and took me YEARS of trying, but WOW was it worth it!!! Now I hear rock music as being all tonic. No matter what chords are put in, it is just jumping from one tonic area to another. You are missing half of the music! (I still love rock, and always will though!) Actually, in jazz, it seems guys try and create as many dominant areas as possible, because thats where it gets so interesting. Benson almost always plays the II chord as a 7#9, making it a V of the V. Of course he uses the tritone sub on that (or both) as well. Would love to hear how you approach all this! With yourself, Richard B, Jack Zucker, Jim Soloway, Scott and the other great jazz players on here, its both incredibly humbling and motivating for me. You guys play the style and at the level I want to reach SOOO badly. This place is becoming a fantastic place to learn how to play!

[mtfingers]

Hey Tag, sorry this took so long. Guess I missed it. Anyway, there are alot of ways to hear/relate to music and changes, but I like playing melodies most of the time. Ok, those melodies come from scales, but by that viewpoint then, everything does.

I like tritoning everything! Even works on minor chords sometimes, because, after all, a IIm is the same as a V7 in my head. In this way, a regular I VI II V (Cmaj7-Am7-Dm7-G7) can easily become Bb7-A7-Ab7-Db7. Yeah! Now there's something we can do something with. Look at it this way. You use a D mel. min. over G7, right? And over Dm right? And over Db7 right? At least these are the basic ways to use this scale). Why not use all those arps over each of those chords too!!!

So now when you play a G7, you can also play a Db7, and a Dm sound as well, with which you can run up the neck arpegiatically, rather than scale-wize. You can also do this with a Db7 and ITS iim, the Abm7. So now when you are playing over Dm7-G7, you can, for instance go: Dm7-G7-Abm7-Db7 instead.

A cool thing I've been messing with has to do with just plain old triads, most of which will move up in minor thirds over an altered dominant chord. I also like using triitone triads over altered dominants. The more basic the sound, the more weirder things sound! Try it and see. I could write a book about these things.

I also see everything as one big clump. The whole neck is a clump. Of course there are divisions, but they are put there by the limitations of our minds. Wherever you are, you are never more than one fret away from being in position. Here is what I tell my beginning students:

Ok there are 7 notes in a diatonic scale. There are 12 notes total. So if you knew absolutely NOTHING about music, and just starting hitting random notes, you'll have a better than 50/50 chance of hitting a right note! Now those are good odds.

[Scribe]

I love my instructor's approach to this because after years of playing, his way of looking at it makes it all so simple. Here goes--

Say you're vamping over |: Amin7 | D7 :| that would make the tonal center G major because the D7 is dominant. However, since you're never going to the G, it's inferred that we're in a minor key. The pentatonic scales of A minor (dorian), B minor (phyrigian), and E minor (aolean) all work because the tones are common to the G major scale. But why not just play in A dorian alone?

Because it typically sounds better to land on the 2nd, 3rd, 5th or 7th at the end of phrases than on the 4th or heaven forbid, the root note. So by playing from the perspective of an alternate mode, it's easy to avoid the triteness of landing on the root or inferring that you're playing from the perspective of the root chord. Instead, you end up playing from the chord's extensions. Pretty cool and not my idea so I'm saying my instructor has an efficient way of looking at it. Also, riffs in the alternate modes sound different making the note selection more varied than just fixating on one mode and playing everything from that perspective.

So in a practical sense, I can now just look at a chart like this one for Queen of Hearts by Greg Allman--

Cm7 (ii in the key of Bb major) | F7/C (V) | F7/B (tritone sub 5) | Bbmaj7 (I) | Ebmaj7 (IV)|

all C dorian or D phyrigian or E aolean

Am7 (ii in A; key change) | D7(+#9) (V in A) |

all A dorian; etc.

Gm7 | G6 | G-6 | G |

G dorian

and just have fun with it. I don't have to worry about bad notes so much. I can appegiate with ease becase I'm only hitting the chords upper extension notes so it sounds hip. Plus I can move around all over the neck and get a better variety of tonal coloration.

All thanks to just 11 weeks with Jim at Mark's Guitar in Spokane, Washington.

[jzucker]

I think there are a lot of folks who don't understand the difference between modes and modal.

Modes are simply a scale played starting on a particular (not necessarily the root tone) of a scale.

Modal playing is entirely different. It's easy to hear. Use your low E string and experiment with using it as a pedal tone and playing diatonic chords in the 7 keys that contain E Natural.

i.e.
E, F, G, A, B, C, D

That's modal. Harmonize the chords by using diatonic 4ths intead of 3rds to get more of McCoy Tyner / Herbie Hancock kind of feel.

Taken out of context, a mode is relatively meaningless but turning it into a modal chord progression is a different story altogether.

Jaz

[ivers]

Originally posted by mtfingers
A cool thing I've been messing with has to do with just plain old triads, most of which will move up in minor thirds over an altered dominant chord. I also like using triitone triads over altered dominants. The more basic the sound, the more weirder things sound! Try it and see. I could write a book about these things.

Triads are cool! For instance, in a II-V progression in C (ie. Dm7-G7), I like to play an E major triad over the dominant chord, perhaps even arpeggiated over three octaves, which makes the sound even more pronounced. This is of course just another way to create a G13b9 vibe than the usual diminished scales, which of course make a nice sound, but not something I wanna hear all the time.

Cool discussion, folks! :cool:

[jzucker]

Originally posted by ivers
Triads are cool! For instance, in a II-V progression in C (ie. Dm7-G7), I like to play an E major triad over the dominant chord, perhaps even arpeggiated over three octaves, which makes the sound even more pronounced. This is of course just another way to create a G13b9 vibe than the usual diminished scales, which of course make a nice sound, but not something I wanna hear all the time.

Cool discussion, folks! :cool:

That's one of my favorite polychords. III/V

III/I is also cool (E/C).

As you mention, E triad is a very nice way to outline G13b9 or Cmaj7#5 without sounding like bebop cliches which is what you typically get when you use the Melodic Minor approach...

Metheny uses that approach and I dig it so much. He outlines polychords with simple triads.

[ivers]

Originally posted by jzucker
That's one of my favorite polychords. III/V

III/I is also cool (E/C).

As you mention, E triad is a very nice way to outline G13b9 or Cmaj7#5 without sounding like bebop cliches which is what you typically get when you use the Melodic Minor approach...

Metheny uses that approach and I dig it so much. He outlines polychords with simple triads.

Yeah, that E triad over Cmaj7#5 is also very much used in brazilian music (like for instance that of brilliant bossanova/jazz/samba-singer/guitarist Joyce), and is a beautiful sound.

Another triad thing I've tried to implement in my own playing over blues changes is one derived from the dominant to the Vmin7 sound (or Vdorian). To explain what I mean, let's use the first chord in a jazz/blues progression in G, which is a G7, as a starting point.

A common way to approach this chord is through the Dm7 arpeggio (D dorian if you use modes). Now, let's say w have this Dm7 sound established, then why not play around with it's dominant? So, then we introduce the A triad (which I find more effective than an A7), and we can get some really nice outside sounds going.

Now, I've yet to fully internalize this sound and use it effortlessly, but I have great hopes for it, at least! :D

[jzucker]

Originally posted by ivers
Yeah, that E triad over Cmaj7#5 is also very much used in brazilian music (like for instance that of brilliant bossanova/jazz/samba-singer/guitarist Joyce), and is a beautiful sound.

Another triad thing I've tried to implement in my own playing over blues changes is one derived from the dominant to the Vmin7 sound (or Vdorian). To explain what I mean, let's use the first chord in a jazz/blues progression in G, which is a G7, as a starting point.

The A triad also works nicely over a Gmaj7 chord since it does not contain the 7th. That's the beauty of the triadic approach.

The Cmaj7#5 (III/I) as you illustrate in brazilian music does not really utilize the E/C tonality. Instead, the G# is typically a passing tone in that context. Cmaj7#5 can also be thought of as an Ab7#5#9/C. Transposing that back to G7, it would be an Eb triad over the G7 chord.

[ivers]

Originally posted by jzucker

The Cmaj7#5 (III/I) as you illustrate in brazilian music does not really utilize the E/C tonality. Instead, the G# is typically a passing tone in that context. Cmaj7#5 can also be thought of as an Ab7#5#9/C. Transposing that back to G7, it would be an Eb triad over the G7 chord.

Ah, I see... Man, this is interesting stuff, always something new to discover!

A thing I've found to be very eye-opening (or ear-opening rather) as
a guitar player, is listening to piano players, especially solo recordings, because the piano is so well suited to polychordal explorations.
The more experienced of you here are of course aware of this, but I recommend this to anyone who's getting into jazz playing, and who perhaps is mainly introduced to jazz through guitar and horn players.

[mtfingers]

Here are the triads I use over G7: G, A, Bb, Db and E (seems to be ALL of our favorites) These triads, to me, are landing notes, or subsets of all possible notes to be played, as usually I'd just stick to one triad over G, say for instance. I think I've figured something out having reread this discussion. The mode-enthusiasts are really referring to ARPEGGIOS! If you substitute the words, everything makes sense. I just call them sounds, not modes. So that what the mode-heads would call a dorian, I would call an Am sound, for example. Still, knowing the KEY CENTER, is the most importart part of improv.

Playing over a II-V-I, for example, is not playing modally. It is playing over the key center of the I, and the II chord is merely a subset of the I scale. If you look at an Am pentatonic, fer-instance, you will see that you have 5 notes, but no defined key (center). This is why we play them. We can use them as arpeggios over a II IV, or V sound diatonically, and adjusting for tasty notes while doing so at will. Theoritically, the III pent. fits over the rest, and it does, but there is MORE!

I like to play a III pent. over a IV chord for example (Bm pent. over Cmaj7), and a VI pent over a II chord as another example.

One very cool thing to notice is that the two notes in the middle of the top two strings, are what determines the, uh, mode you use. If you are using the A minor pentatonic on the 5 fret, what happens on the 6th and 7th frets of the B and E strings defines the mode. I call these the critical notes. If you try every combination and permutation of any two notes out of a possibility of 4 you will get a: G scale, C scale, F scale, and G harmonic minor scale. Now THAT'S cool. Notice that you get the scales in increasing amounts of flats. This is simply because the guitar is built that way.

BTW....as for the Cmaj7+5....I use it all the time for a I chord, I love that chord.l Its also a nice Am9(maj7) sound.

[jzucker]

Originally posted by mtfingers
Here are the triads I use over G7: G, A, Bb, Db and E

Don't forget Bmaj. The F# in the B D# F# triad creates a nice dissonance. Herbie has used Gmaj7#5 as a sub for G7. Try going from Dmin11 to Gmaj7#5 to Cmaj7. You'll see.

From dodecaphonics, the B triad is the IV chord of the tritone V chord (Db is the V). You can actually play any of the triads in any of the related keys of the G7, Bb7, Db7, E7.

[mtfingers]

Hmmm...sounds cool, I'll have to try that B triad. If you don't hear from me in a week, that means my piano player shot me.

Also forgot the obvious: F.

[jzucker]

Don't forget the B Triad is also the 7th, 3rd and 5th of an Abm7 which is the tritone ii chord.

Coltrane used the Abm7 Db7 all the time over the G7 chord.

[mtfingers]

That's true. We use the tritone II V all the time. Why not the resultant major triad of the II, which we do anyways on other stuff? Now it feels much more comfortable.

[Lucidology]

Great teaching thread 'Bumped' back into action! :angel

[yZe]

The deal is chord tones

If you were to think Bb, then there would be a tendency to play lines which would resolve on the Bb chord tones (the 1-3-5-7) of Bb

in this case, such chord tones being Bb, D, F, and A

If the chord vamp has a Cmi tonality, and you think "Bb major over Cmi"

there is a risk of emphasizing Bb, D,F,A as resolve notes while in Cmi

So those notes weighed up in light of a Cmi tonality would be the intervals of a b7-9-11-13

Those intervals function more as color tones rather than resolve tones, so it is better to think of C mi Dorian as a seperate and distinct scale so that your ideas eventually resole to the 1-b3-5-b7 of the actual C mi chord

such notes being C-Eb-G-Bb