Calling all teachers! Request for assistance

[slyzspyz]

Hi everyone,

As part of a unit in my music teaching diploma, I need to develop a portfolio of ideas (a 'toolbox' ) that will help me reach my goals as a teacher. One of my goals, specifically as a guitar teacher in high schools, is to encourage students to want to improve their technique and theory skills, including reading standard notation.

Some of my high school age students are resistant to learning things the way other instruments do, a few won't bring their books (if indeed they buy any in the first place), or are generally are only interested in playing songs (or only certain riffs from songs). This is all cool if it is just a hobby but ultimately I would like to pass on more than that. Especially if later they decide they want to take it more seriously, eg going on to college, they will need to have the foundations covered.
I'm interested in looking looking at ways of keeping the average guitar student interested and motivated but still giving them plenty of educational value in the material.

I would like to start this thread and keep it going for a few weeks if possible and welcome any input experienced teachers may have, including:
- recommended strategies to motivate students to practice the good stuff (reading, scales, arpeggios, chord progressions)
- websites for guitar teaching
- books, dvds etc
- tips or anything that is of use to a teacher etc

Thanks in advance!

[craigoslo]

A good website is justinguitar.com
It has alot of great stuff.
As far as giving guitar players a well rounded education- I like to focus on improv. Start out with pentatonic scales for rock soloing. Get them hooked on jamming. Show them hoow important it is to know all 5 positions. Teach how to use these scales in minor, major and blues. Get them to figure out which scale fits any given song and key.
When the have mastered minor pentatonics, move on to minor scales (7 notes), then follow all the above steps with those scales.
With minor, major, and minor and major pentatonic scales, they have not only cracked the code to beginners improv, they have also learned the neck and some theory to boot. That's something that many guitar players have stuggled without.

[Tomo]

Hi everyone,

As part of a unit in my music teaching diploma, I need to develop a portfolio of ideas (a 'toolbox' ) that will help me reach my goals as a teacher. One of my goals, specifically as a guitar teacher in high schools, is to encourage students to want to improve their technique and theory skills, including reading standard notation.

Some of my high school age students are resistant to learning things the way other instruments do, a few won't bring their books (if indeed they buy any in the first place), or are generally are only interested in playing songs (or only certain riffs from songs). This is all cool if it is just a hobby but ultimately I would like to pass on more than that. Especially if later they decide they want to take it more seriously, eg going on to college, they will need to have the foundations covered.
I'm interested in looking looking at ways of keeping the average guitar student interested and motivated but still giving them plenty of educational value in the material.

I would like to start this thread and keep it going for a few weeks if possible and welcome any input experienced teachers may have, including:
- recommended strategies to motivate students to practice the good stuff (reading, scales, arpeggios, chord progressions)
- websites for guitar teaching
- books, dvds etc
- tips or anything that is of use to a teacher etc

Thanks in advance!

How about teach how to play the blues or other styles. And please take many private lessons from many great teachers. (this will last forever and make a huge difference later... ).

Good luck!

Tomo

[deforce]

Hi everyone,

As part of a unit in my music teaching diploma, I need to develop a portfolio of ideas (a 'toolbox' ) that will help me reach my goals as a teacher. One of my goals, specifically as a guitar teacher in high schools, is to encourage students to want to improve their technique and theory skills, including reading standard notation.

Some of my high school age students are resistant to learning things the way other instruments do, a few won't bring their books (if indeed they buy any in the first place), or are generally are only interested in playing songs (or only certain riffs from songs). This is all cool if it is just a hobby but ultimately I would like to pass on more than that. Especially if later they decide they want to take it more seriously, eg going on to college, they will need to have the foundations covered.
I'm interested in looking looking at ways of keeping the average guitar student interested and motivated but still giving them plenty of educational value in the material.

I would like to start this thread and keep it going for a few weeks if possible and welcome any input experienced teachers may have, including:
- recommended strategies to motivate students to practice the good stuff (reading, scales, arpeggios, chord progressions)
- websites for guitar teaching
- books, dvds etc
- tips or anything that is of use to a teacher etc

Thanks in advance!

If you are teaching at high schools, you are not just an instructor but rather a teacher. What do teachers at high schools do regularly? They test and assess students :-)

Also, provide some opportunities for your students to play in a supervised group, as part of an ensemble and a band. At rehearsals give them charts only in standard notation.

[Ken Ho]

To encourage reading of standard notation, teach them to read and play vocal melodies for any number of great reasons.
They are easy, one note at a time.
You teach singing at teh same tiem , if tehy siong along to what notes theya re playing.
You instantly form an ensemble. One guy plays chords, one plays melody, one or more sings. You can add harmony easily here too.
Vocal melody is the smart and easy place to start to construct a solo. A pentatonic, or any scale for that matter is not. Modifying teh vocal melody teaches target notes and resolution and makes it easy to navigate.
You can easily find standard notation of modern songs they will want to play. Ode to Joy may be a proven formula for piano., but it's a sure fire turn off for guitar.

Lead, don't drive.
Expecting novice students to trasncribe their own songs is just plain stupid.

[Swain]

My comment on having them transcribe their tunes, was just meant as an example of a goal. A motivational tool. Sorry if it came off as a stupid idea. But, I do think it works as a more long term "carrot" for motivated students.
I find it actually works quite well in practice. Do students come in with complete scores? No. Usually they have those vocal melodies and some chord changes.

[Ken Ho]

My comment on having them transcribe their tunes, was just meant as an example of a goal. A motivational tool. Sorry if it came off as a stupid idea. But, I do think it works as a more long term "carrot" for motivated students.
I find it actually works quite well in practice. Do students come in with complete scores? No. Usually they have those vocal melodies and some chord changes.


Yeah, I probably came across as harsh. The OP bemoaned the fact that the guitar kids are disdaining traditional teaching methods. I wrote more about this morning, but stupid computer lost the post.
Transcribing is an advanced skill, but guitar players routinely prescribe it to novices. I had a kid I was teaching who was doing really well get blasted by an "expert" who insisted he never read notation again, but learn to play purely with his ears. Poor kid.

[KRosser]

Find (or, arrange yourself) some ensemble reading material, such as 4-5 guitars playing an arrangement of a rock tune or classical/jazz piece. Reading in a group of guitar players where everyone has a different part and hearing it all come together can be pretty exciting.

I know it was for me.

OK, so maybe I was a weird kid....

[Ken Ho]

Find (or, arrange yourself) some ensemble reading material, such as 4-5 guitars playing an arrangement of a rock tune or classical/jazz piece. Reading in a group of guitar players where everyone has a different part and hearing it all come together can be pretty exciting.

I know it was for me.

OK, so maybe I was a weird kid....

Not saying you are not weird or anything, but in a school class setting, getting ensembles working has to be the best approach.

[Swain]

Yeah, I have seen many examples of elitism from "Musical Instructors" over the years. It's a pet peeve of mine.
When I deal with any Student, I try to remember how hard it was to grasp some of the various aspects of playing and understanding, that more experienced Musicians took for granted.

Okay, back on track:

Rhythm games can be fun for people to do. Maybe have them try to clap one hand on their thigh for 1/4 Notes, and the other hand in a Shuffle, while their feet tap even 1/4 Notes?
Or, have them try to tap their feet, and figure out the rhythms in a favorite tune?

Then, thet have to try and describe what they've discovered.

[slyzspyz]

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone-

I've been doing this for nearly 20 years now so I know what works for me, then there are some other things will require an attitude adjustment (there are a few things in there that I've tried but had a hard time getting off the ground eg guitar ensembles)

I also teach at college, and although the contrast is quite marked I would like to meld some of my approaches; incorporating more assessments for the students seems sensible, although they do not necessarily count towards a grade (most students learn guitar at high school as an elective, not as part of their music course at school).

Any more ideas (or books, sites etc)?

particularly ones that do not require too much research / or preparation - one of the purposes of this assignment is to be able to dip into my 'toolbox' at some point in the future (eg 6 months from now) and access something to help me if I feel stuck (Indeed, this forum is one such resource)

[Jon]

You've got to look at what motivates the students. Why would they want to study sight-reading and theory? You can't force them to learn this stuff - especially if this isn't a formal school or college course leading to exams and qualifications. You can explain the benefits of it and try to create exercises and musical experiences to illustrate this - as with the 5 part ensemble class, perhaps a trip to a live theatre show with an orchestra pit full of sight-readers, or a visiting lecture from a pro session player who can talk about their work and how theory & sight reading has helped them - anything which might make them think that it's actually quite cool to learn this stuff.

Another thing to think about is testing the students regularly - this is one of my biggest gripes with some of the teachers I've known in the past - they'll show you stuff during a lesson but not give you any specific goals for the next lesson (which will focus on something new). Being tested at the next lesson on something specific makes it much easier to focus your practicing and gives a sense of tangible progress.

There's a balance to be struck though, between doing the right thing as a teacher and getting enough income from teaching to make it viable. At the one extreme you could be the tough teacher who only wants really dedicated students (Lenny Tristano used to end Joe Satriani's lessons early if he made a mistake on the exercises that he's been told to prepare for that week). At the other end is the guy who does exactly what each student wants him to (e.g. just showing them the riffs to their favourite tunes or a few tricks to impress their friends) and doesn't put any pressure on them to do anything they don't want to. One route will whittle your students down to a dedicated few whilst the other will probably give you many more less-focused students. It's up to the individual teacher exactly where they want to position their teaching methods within these extremes - the important thing is to communicate this to the student when they first start having lessons i.e. some sort of contract between pupil and teacher which outlines what is expected of each other.

[KRosser]

You've got to look at what motivates the students. Why would they want to study sight-reading and theory? You can't force them to learn this stuff - especially if this isn't a formal school or college course leading to exams and qualifications.

Didn't the OP say this was for a high school course?

That would seem to me to put the focus more on some real educational value and not as much of 'whatever motivates the student'. Everyone in high school band and orchestra learns to read standard notation. I don't see why that's unreasonable to expect of a guitar class.

[JonR]

A good idea for teaching them the value of notation (assuming that's one of your goals) is to give them a project involving writing something.
It could be something as simple as a riff. They don't have to compose it themselves, they could get it from a recording - as long as it's an obscure or unusual one the others probably won't have heard of, or don't know that well. (Each student has their own individual project.)
Then - and this is the point - each one has to give what he/she's written to the others, so that they can play it.

IOW, it's about communicating information: accurately, reliably, clearly. How are they going to do that? What written devices, symbols or systems are going to work? (The provider of the piece is not allowed to demonstrate it in any way. Everything necessary has to be on the piece of paper.)

Tab will be enough if the riff is a well-known one, where they all have the rhythm of it in their heads. But how to write the rhythm of a riff they haven't heard? How to write down an original composition, so others can perform it?
Staff notation isn't the only method of doing this - but (and one hopes this is what they'll take away from the project) it is by far the simplest and clearest method yet devised.
(Piano-roll notation is very good at clear graphic representations of timing, duration and pitch - but not ideal for hand-writing!)

Of course, another result of such a project may be the conclusion that - "hey, who needs this, we're never going to be in a situation where we can't demonstrate what we want the others to play, teaching it by a combination of ear and tab/chords! We're gonna be in a rock band, man! Not instructing a concert orchestra! And if I compose my own piece, I'll record it as audio, so that way I won't forget it, and I can give out an MP3 if I want others to learn it!"

Those are perfectly valid objections, and underline the limits of the usefulness of notation.
So it's important not to oversell it, only to explain (and above all demonstrate, so they experience it) how and when it might matter. At least, staff notation, if in some ways superseded by technology, is still a refreshingly low-tech, hands-on and immediate system. If it didn't still work well, it would have been dropped by now.

And another angle, of course, is to sell it as "literacy". Compare it with verbal language. We can all speak and understand speech - why do we need to write anything down, or read books? ;)
Being unable to read or write staff notation limits you as a musician in the same way as being unable to read or write words limits you in life in general. Maybe you can live with those limitations. But isn't it better not to?
From that angle it ought to be a no-brainer...

(BTW, if you try the above project with your students, let me know how it works. I haven't had the courage to try it with mine yet... :rolleyes:)

[Ken Ho]

Didn't the OP say this was for a high school course?

That would seem to me to put the focus more on some real educational value and not as much of 'whatever motivates the student'. Everyone in high school band and orchestra learns to read standard notation. I don't see why that's unreasonable to expect of a guitar class.

Not unreasonable at all, but there is this massive tradition in guitar, esp rock, to disdain formal teaching, and that gets hammered into kids through every forum on the net.
Sure, you can try and force kids, using the model of " you are at school, do as you are told", but for an elective, that is not gonna run.
The trick is to make them realise there is a prize at the end.
For that to work, there actually needs to be a prize at the end. Identifying or defining that prize is the tricky bit.

Guitar is the instrument of anarchy too, and teenages prize that. They will not trade that easily. It belongs to them, they don't want the system to have it.

[stevel]

Hi everyone,

As part of a unit in my music teaching diploma, I need to develop a portfolio of ideas (a 'toolbox' ) that will help me reach my goals as a teacher. One of my goals, specifically as a guitar teacher in high schools, is to encourage students to want to improve their technique and theory skills, including reading standard notation.

Some of my high school age students are resistant to learning things the way other instruments do, a few won't bring their books (if indeed they buy any in the first place), or are generally are only interested in playing songs (or only certain riffs from songs). This is all cool if it is just a hobby but ultimately I would like to pass on more than that. Especially if later they decide they want to take it more seriously, eg going on to college, they will need to have the foundations covered.
I'm interested in looking looking at ways of keeping the average guitar student interested and motivated but still giving them plenty of educational value in the material.

I would like to start this thread and keep it going for a few weeks if possible and welcome any input experienced teachers may have, including:
- recommended strategies to motivate students to practice the good stuff (reading, scales, arpeggios, chord progressions)
- websites for guitar teaching
- books, dvds etc
- tips or anything that is of use to a teacher etc

Thanks in advance!

This is a tough one.

Ideally, not failing the class should be motivation enough.

Instead, you might have to institute a "reward" system. In the old days, gold stars in your book used to work, but nowadays, you probably need something more like a bribe. Depending on the age of the student, they might get a reward like "if you play this (the stuff they must learn) I'll let you perform this (the stuff they want to play) as well".

A "hard knocks" lesson might work well - get a sax player, pianist, and bassist together with a guitarist and set the music in front of them and say "play this". When the guitarist looks like an idiot, maybe they'll step up in the future. However, this can backfire with the "you're trying to make me look dumb" or "yeah, I don't care about this kind of music anyway" attitude.

Sometimes, students will learn things just to spite you (or the world at large). Joke: How do you make a guitar player turn down? Put music in front of them. Tell them this joke and explain why the musical community has such a low view of non-reading guitarists and maybe you'll get through to a couple of them.

Guitar has been central in "rebellion" oriented music and is going to naturally appeal to black t-shirt wearing 13 year olds. It's as hard to get them to see the value in learning a scale when their favorite band's guitarist can't play a scale themselves (or make it appear that this is so).

Do you have a guitar ensemble? Saxophone players and other instrumentalists in bands/orchestras don't learn to "carry the song" in the same way guitarists typically do - they're (the saxes) part of a team - and they play a few lines here and there.

Singling out players can cause them a lot of stress. If they all have some simple parts to learn, with the goal of coming together as a team to play a piece, they'll be a little more amenable "if everyone is doing it".

Furthermore, you then have rewards like "first chair" built in.

Good Luck,
Steve

[Swain]

'Tradition'?

Well, I deal with this 'tradition' every day at GIT, which is not a 'tradition' so much as it's an avoidance of information.

If a teenager feels the guitar is the instrument of anarchy, which belongs to him, and he feels learning would compromise that, he shouldn't be in a guitar class. I would be the first to help him out the door, since it would likely be a huge distraction to those who signed up for an elective because they wanted to learn something.

I will never, never, never, never, never get the thing teachers get into here about dumbing things down for students "or else they'll quit or otherwise not enjoy themselves". It's as if they think the student is doing the teacher a favor by being there. Say what? If someone comes to me for a lesson, I teach, they learn. It's that easy. Don't like it? Then why the f*ck would you come to me in the first place?

I really don't get it.

I think the OP is trying to build his classes through his approach. And maybe he would be better served trying to work on these often neglected aspects of instruction.
Many approaches seem to be "my way or the highway". And while that is definately a valid approach. To a Newbie, especially a rebellious soul, it may be the highway is their choice.
Other approaches seem to be slanted too far the other way. No real direction and guidance, past a cursory level.

So, the balancing act of these aspects is a high-wire of skills that I think needs to be discussed and focused on. It does take a very talented and dedicated instructor to walk this wire.

And I think this is where the heart of the whole Thread lies. This discourse and hopefully, to the improvement of the skills of everyone involved in it.
And that would be a win-win situation.

[Ken Ho]

'Tradition'?

Well, I deal with this 'tradition' every day at GIT, which is not a 'tradition' so much as it's an avoidance of information.

If a teenager feels the guitar is the instrument of anarchy, which belongs to him, and he feels learning would compromise that, he shouldn't be in a guitar class. I would be the first to help him out the door, since it would likely be a huge distraction to those who signed up for an elective because they wanted to learn something.

I will never, never, never, never, never get the thing teachers get into here about dumbing things down for students "or else they'll quit or otherwise not enjoy themselves". It's as if they think the student is doing the teacher a favor by being there. Say what? If someone comes to me for a lesson, I teach, they learn. It's that easy. Don't like it? Then why the f*ck would you come to me in the first place?

I really don't get it.

Man, I touched a nerve there.
I'm not creating, nor defending the "tradition" of disdaining education, merely ackonledging it exists. How do I know it exists ?? Wel,, I've been blasted and flamed on enough forums for daring to suggest it might be a good idea.
Nor am I ever in favour of dumbing down to please students. My approach to teaching students is much the same as yours, just a different profession. The teaching suggestions I made did not avoid information, just presented it in a useful way designed to motivate and allow success along the way.
But, this is not graduate, or post grad, this is high-school and the motivations are different.
Moreover, these kids are still at an age where they are still learning their work ethic and motivations. That's at least half of what they are there to learn. It's a chance to lead and mentor kids into a rewarding cycle of work and achievment.
The "hard-knocks" approach described above is just gonna shame kids into failure.
And your hard-ass approach belongs in a post-grad programme, not in high-school.

Let me tell you buster, you get a lot further in this world by leading people than you do by driving.

[Ken Ho]

First, you've never seen me teach, so I think you'd find I'm not a hard-ass at all. I do use humor to get my points across and I want to have fun as much as anyone. And I never said 'my way or the highway'. I'm very flexible with my students. But if they're there to tell me how to teach them they're in the wrong place. Any other endeavor you'd pay lessons for that's the case, be it graduate school, high school, grade school, to the 4-year olds I see taking figure skating lessons at the local rink. The student doesn't modify the curriculum to make it easier to get. It makes a joke of the whole process

Second, I never read or even commented on your suggestions. I was responding to your post to me that I should somehow "work with" the "tradition" of willful ignorance regarding the guitar.

Look, I don't mind playing the adult/authority figure. If they wanna rebel against something, I invite them to give it their best shot. I won't disappoint on my end. But I do think they need to hear that voice, whether they decide to heed it now or ten years from now. They don't need me to be their older hip jamming buddy. They need me to be their teacher.

Any student that shows up for any kind of lesson or class in any field and tells the teacher what he doesn't want to learn is usually told to save his money and just do it on their own. Why is this different for the guitar?

See, I did not say that. I just pointed out that it's there, and it's working against you.
I agree that it's odd and unhelpful that guitar novices disdain usual teaching practices, but I seek to understand that, rather than to deny it is so.
They may need you to be their music teacher, but teenagers actually need much more than that. They still need to develop their learning competence. I'm not expressing that well. Teaching someone how to learn is a lot trickier than teaching the content afterwards. Respect has a lot to do with it, and that does not come from authority these days, probably never did. It comes from confident, firm leadership, and mostly they will test that constantly and make you want to kill them often.
There is a great book, which you will not only enjoy reading, but gain a lot of stuff from called "Raising Boys" by Steve Biddulph. It explains it much better.
PM me your home addy and I'll send you a copy for Xmas.

[Baminated]

For all practical purposes, design your lessons for people that make excuses for why they didn't practice all week.

Design them in such a way that they are actually making progress each week by adding small incremental changes, while reviewing the previous material in a slightly different way, so it seems fresh each time. In other words, dumb everything way the **** down in a systematic, surgical fashion so that you don't lose the superfluity of non-practicing students which are prevalent today.

You can ask advice from a forum board all day, but until you "work it", none of this will really make too much sense to you

I have a low drop rate & have developed a whole system for slackers, who actually do progress and don't get spooked by lessons

Think of the core things people need:

Reading, Rhythm/Harmonic concepts , melodic phrasing/scales/arps/, Riffs , Tunes , etc . ..

[rockinrob]

Find (or, arrange yourself) some ensemble reading material, such as 4-5 guitars playing an arrangement of a rock tune or classical/jazz piece. Reading in a group of guitar players where everyone has a different part and hearing it all come together can be pretty exciting.

I know it was for me.

OK, so maybe I was a weird kid....


A big +1!


Guitarists tend to be competitive by nature, and so do teenagers. You'll have a couple that will resist, but when they see themselves being left behind they'll pull it together. I've seen it happen.

[Ken Ho]

You're welcome to send me the book but I really suspect we're on two very different pages here.

I accept that it happens all over. But there's no room for that in a classroom. And since you've never been in one of my classrooms and have no idea what goes on there, why don't we just put it to rest.

I gave the OP what I felt was a very good suggestion for his scenario; I don't need to come here to defend my teaching style.

Yes, if you re-read my first post in this thread, I gave exactly the same suggestion. You just proceeded to grossly mis-quote me, so I felt OK about being a little bucolic in return.
I have not criticised your teaching style either, but reading this again , quoted from your earlier post, you came across as pretty gruff, so that was what I was responding to.
I will never, never, never, never, never get the thing teachers get into here about dumbing things down for students "or else they'll quit or otherwise not enjoy themselves". It's as if they think the student is doing the teacher a favor by being there. Say what? If someone comes to me for a lesson, I teach, they learn. It's that easy. Don't like it? Then why the f*ck would you come to me in the first place?

BTW, Thanks for apologising for so grossly mis-quoting me. Be yourself by all means, don't make shit up and attribute it to me.

[KRosser]

Ideally, not failing the class should be motivation enough.


You'd be surprised at how big a motivator this really can be.


Tell them this joke and explain why the musical community has such a low view of non-reading guitarists and maybe you'll get through to a couple of them.


I teach intermediate and advanced reading classes at GIT, and I tell them all this joke as a way of showing them, "this is the bias that's already against you when you go out there". I also tell them I don't want anyone saying that about one of my students.

But I do explain the double-edged-sword reality of the situation: since there's such a low expectation of guitarists as readers (and well, musicians) if you can read three notes correctly they're already impressed that you're ahead of the pack. That downside is that you will have to work twice as hard to overcome the bias against you and hang as an equal.



Do you have a guitar ensemble? Saxophone players and other instrumentalists in bands/orchestras don't learn to "carry the song" in the same way guitarists typically do - they're (the saxes) part of a team - and they play a few lines here and there.


As I said in my first post, I have some experience with this working very well on a high school and post-high school level. There's lots of 4 and 5-electric guitar arrangements out there of pop songs, jazz songs, classical pieces, and the reason for that is that they're very popular among students and they work. I've ordered and worked with many of them, and what I know of them is the tip of the iceberg.

Still, nothing beats a committed and passionate teacher calling the shots.

[Swain]

So, I think the motivation behind a student joining a guitar (or any music) class needs to be addressed. That is, if this Thread is going where I think it need to. I could be wrong on the trajectory, sure. But, this is the discussion I think that will help build a truly useful "Toolbox".

Motivations, and how to work with those as a big component in the whole process. Sound reasonable? Or, is this de-railing the whole Thread?

[rockinrob]

So, I think the motivation behind a student joining a guitar (or any music) class needs to be addressed. That is, if this Thread is going where I think it need to. I could be wrong on the trajectory, sure. But, this is the discussion I think that will help build a truly useful "Toolbox".

Motivations, and how to work with those as a big component in the whole process. Sound reasonable? Or, is this de-railing the whole Thread?


:dunno





Guitarists tend to be competitive by nature, and so do teenagers. You'll have a couple that will resist, but when they see themselves being left behind they'll pull it together. I've seen it happen.


You can't motivate them, they have to do that themselves. But like I said, put them in a room together and they'll naturally compete a bit, you just need to guide them and make sure that competitive energy goes in the right direction.

[Swain]

:dunno






You can't motivate them, they have to do that themselves. But like I said, put them in a room together and they'll naturally compete a bit, you just need to guide them and make sure that competitive energy goes in the right direction.


And that is what I'm talking about. Working with their motivations. Whatever they are.
So, that is definately a valid approach. I use it all the time, myself.

[Jon]

Didn't the OP say this was for a high school course?

That would seem to me to put the focus more on some real educational value and not as much of 'whatever motivates the student'. Everyone in high school band and orchestra learns to read standard notation. I don't see why that's unreasonable to expect of a guitar class.

No - he said he was teaching in high school, which doesn't necessarily mean an official course with defined curriculum and exams. I agree with you that if it is an official course, then learning sight-reading and theory is just part of the course and if you don't study it you fail - which is as much motivation as you can hope for really. I get the impression that it's less formal teaching, hence the requirement of the OP for ways to motivate students to study the things that may be less exciting or give less instant gratification.

Formal classical education does give a great grounding in theory, sight reading and technique - if a student has studied classical guitar for a number of years and then wants to take up modern electric playing they will have a big advantage over a non-classicaly trained guitarist - techniques which seem to be classed as advanced to electric players, such as artificial harmonics are tackled fairly early on in the grade system for classical. However I do wonder whether some potentially good musicians are let down by the rather constricted nature of classical teaching in schools? Certainly in my day (the 70s - I feel old now!) music lessons at high school consisted of learning to sight read on the recorder - I used to mess around for hours at home on an old piano picking out theme tunes to TV programs or making up my own tunes, but this wasn't the sort of thing that was done in music at school, so I wasn't really interested in it and wasn't identified as someone who had any musical inclination.

My main point was that, at the top end of the scale there are serious students of the guitar who want to go on to be professionals, and at the bottom end there are the hobbyists who just want to play a few bits and pieces for fun - IMO a teacher should adopt an approach which doesn't preclude any student moving up the scale if they want to, whilst still addressing their wants and needs at whatever point they are currently at. If that means either not pushing theory too hard at one end, or being very tough at the other then fine, as long as the teacher is flexible in his approach.

[KRosser]

No - he said he was teaching in high school, which doesn't necessarily mean an official course with defined curriculum and exams. I agree with you that if it is an official course, then learning sight-reading and theory is just part of the course and if you don't study it you fail - which is as much motivation as you can hope for really. I get the impression that it's less formal teaching, hence the requirement of the OP for ways to motivate students to study the things that may be less exciting or give less instant gratification.

Formal classical education does give a great grounding in theory, sight reading and technique - if a student has studied classical guitar for a number of years and then wants to take up modern electric playing they will have a big advantage over a non-classicaly trained guitarist - techniques which seem to be classed as advanced to electric players, such as artificial harmonics are tackled fairly early on in the grade system for classical. However I do wonder whether some potentially good musicians are let down by the rather constricted nature of classical teaching in schools? Certainly in my day (the 70s - I feel old now!) music lessons at high school consisted of learning to sight read on the recorder - I used to mess around for hours at home on an old piano picking out theme tunes to TV programs or making up my own tunes, but this wasn't the sort of thing that was done in music at school, so I wasn't really interested in it and wasn't identified as someone who had any musical inclination.

My main point was that, at the top end of the scale there are serious students of the guitar who want to go on to be professionals, and at the bottom end there are the hobbyists who just want to play a few bits and pieces for fun - IMO a teacher should adopt an approach which doesn't preclude any student moving up the scale if they want to, whilst still addressing their wants and needs at whatever point they are currently at. If that means either not pushing theory too hard at one end, or being very tough at the other then fine, as long as the teacher is flexible in his approach.

When I was in elementary school in Maryland in the late 60's/early 70's was when I did my 'sight reading on the recorder' years. I got a lot out of it, I'm sure. If nothing else it got me to develop a relationship with a music teacher that saw I was really driven and gave me all kinds of music books on the side.

When I was in high school in Massachussetts in the late 70's, I had a full-year bona-fide 'Music Theory' course, where we worked out of the Piston Harmony book. It was another experience for which I am eternally grateful.

There's obviously a lot of different views on this, I'm just here to share mine and I don't expect anyone here will change them and vice-versa.

But - I think any math teacher that says to himself, "let's face it, most of these kids will go on to lead unrewarding lives in dead-end jobs and they'll never use geometry, so why push them to excel?" probably shouldn't have that job.

Likewise, any young music student I treat as if they have the potential for greatness. Because if I push them, and they achieve something that they never could do before, they've just learned something a lot more valuable than the guitar. And that will follow them for the rest of their days, no matter what they do.

To deny them that, I believe, is a negligent abuse of the process.

Do you know this quote, by Guillaume Apollonaire? :

"Come to the edge, he said. They said: We are afraid. Come to the edge, he said. They came. He pushed them, and they flew."





(http://thinkexist.com/quotes/guillaume_apollinaire/)

[Tomo]

Bill Leavitt wrote many guitar arrangements for Berklee guitar department.
Fantastic harmony! 5-6 guitars. Fun to play bass part too.

I love using these charts to my guitar lab.... great for sense blending together with other guitarists.. great for sight-reading... and tuning!

Tomo

[Tomo]

When I was in elementary school in Maryland in the late 60's/early 70's was when I did my 'sight reading on the recorder' years. I got a lot out of it, I'm sure. If nothing else it got me to develop a relationship with a music teacher that saw I was really driven and gave me all kinds of music books on the side.

When I was in high school in Massachussetts in the late 70's, I had a full-year bona-fide 'Music Theory' course, where we worked out of the Piston Harmony book. It was another experience for which I am eternally grateful.

There's obviously a lot of different views on this, I'm just here to share mine and I don't expect anyone here will change them and vice-versa.

But - I think any math teacher that says to himself, "let's face it, most of these kids will go on to lead unrewarding lives in dead-end jobs and they'll never use geometry, so why push them to excel?" probably shouldn't have that job.

Likewise, any young music student I treat as if they have the potential for greatness. Because if I push them, and they achieve something that they never could do before, they've just learned something a lot more valuable than the guitar. And that will follow them for the rest of their days, no matter what they do.

To deny them that, I believe, is a negligent abuse of the process.

Do you know this quote, by Guillaume Apollonaire? :

"Come to the edge, he said. They said: We are afraid. Come to the edge, he said. They came. He pushed them, and they flew."





(http://thinkexist.com/quotes/guillaume_apollinaire/)

Loved that quote Ken!

Tomo

[russ6100]

FWIW I'm doing very little teaching nowadays (context: private instruction) because I seem to get too many students who want it all now without putting in the required work, or simply aren't motivated. In the dynamic of private instruction, I can and certainly try to motivate by example, and communicate and display the joy of music, turn them on to things that they wouldn't otherwise be exposed to etc.. But I'm not going to do the mollycoddle thing.

Having said that, I do think that possibly a different approach is required when you've got a high school situation going on as described (non-credit, more of a laid back, "let's check out guitar" kinda thing), vs the kind of instruction one would expect when your students have paid thousands of dollars in tuition and books, and are paying rent in Hollywood, to study music seriously.

If I were doing the instruction in the high school scenario, I would certainly be ready to deal with the motivated student, in the same way as I would in the latter situation but for high school students who are still in the "checking it out" phase, I can't imagine being as demanding of them as I would with students paying for private instruction, or in a music school scenario.

[KRosser]

If I were doing the instruction in the high school scenario, I would certainly be ready to deal with the motivated student, in the same way as I would in the latter situation but for high school students who are still in the "checking it out" phase, I can't imagine being as demanding of them as I would with students paying for private instruction, or in a music school scenario.

Nor would I, but I would still stress achieving some musical goals, and I would set those goals according to how far it would be reasonable to expect them to stretch.

Like I said, given that marching bands, orchestra, concert bands in high school deal with rudimentary reading and there's usually not a mass violent mutiny, I don't think that's one unrealistic goal to set for a guitar class, especially if you can get some good ensemble stuff going.

[Swain]

Gennations site is good. Also, ibreathemusic and Guitar Noise.

Hope this Thread is doing what you want, so far.

[slyzspyz]

Hi everyone, OP here

I really appreciate all the responses, they have got me thinking about a few things and ways of implementing different ideas. Great to see some passionate discussion going on(!) about teaching philosophies and approaches.
Down to a more mundane level I am still interested in hearing about some books you have found useful. I grab bits and pieces from differnt books such as the various William Leavitt series, Louie Bellson's 4/4 reading text, as well as basic beginner books such as the Progressive series by Turner & White, but would love to find a book that comes as close as possible to a complete all-in-one text ie reading, technique and relevant performance material (i.e. cool songs) aimed at beginner to intermediate. Does such a book exist? I will get around to compiling all my exercises and ideas one day into a file or book - how many more of you have said this as well, or better still, actually done so?

[slyzspyz]

last minute bump

(the assignment is due tomorrow!)

[Elektrik_SIxx]

Hi everyone, OP here

I really appreciate all the responses, they have got me thinking about a few things and ways of implementing different ideas. Great to see some paasionalte discussion going on(!) about teaching philosophies and approaches.
Down to a more mundane level I am still interested in hearing about some books you have found useful. I grab bits and pieces from differnt books such as the various William Leavitt series, Louie Bellson's 4/4 reading text, as well as basic beginner books such as the Progressive series by Turner & White, but would love to find a book that comes as close as possible to a complete all-in-one text ie reading, technique and relevant performance material (i.e. cool songs) aimed at beginner to intermediate. Does such a book exist? I will get around to compiling all my exercises and ideas one day into a file or book - how many more of you have said this as well, or better still, actually done so?
Give 'Concepts' by Howard Morgen a try, maybe precede it with 'Preparations' from same author.