Mental Retardation in Pets (horses included)?

[Lucidology]

Obviously inbreeding can be a factor,
and certain species such as Dalmatians are more prone (from what I've read),
was just wondering if anyone here has had experience with retardation in their or others pets?

[Dr. Tweedbucket]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure my cat is retarded. :confused: The only thing she is smart enough to do is eat, poop, sleep and not get run over by cars. :huh

[BMF Effects]

I believe Golden Retrievers are candidates for inbreeding/overbreeding as well and can suffer from mental issues. Cats suffer as well, I have one that I know was inbred and while she's a sweetheart she's not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

[Ken Ho]

Hypoxic brain damage can occur in animals as well as humans.
In horses, there is a genetic condition called "Can't remember just now". I know someone who had a foal born with it last year, but she had anotehr 3 mares abort due to ergot poisoning form meadow hay she was feeding. The ergot can also cause neurological damage, and I'm not sure that was not the real cause.
Horses are all autistic anyway, so you can't make that much worse than it already is, though some stallions take it to extremes.

[Jim S]

Obviously inbreeding can be a factor,
and certain species such as Dalmatians are more prone (from what I've read),
was just wondering if anyone here has had experience with retardation in their or others pets?

I think some of family members suffer from this.




Perhaps you have not seen really funny mental retardation?

http://dyn.ifilm.com/resize/image/stills/films/resize/istd/2832158.jpg
.

[chrisr777]

Well, one of my cats went up into the attic while I was working on the water heater a few days ago. It then spent two days up there beacuse it couldn't get back down. Finally, I went up there (it is more of a crawl space and not easy to do with no floor an nowhere to step but the beams) It still took me half an hour to convince him to come and let me get him down. He is definately not all there.

[Loop-Master]

Well, one of my cats went up into the attic while I was working on the water heater a few days ago. It then spent two days up there beacuse it couldn't get back down. Finally, I went up there (it is more of a crawl space and not easy to do with no floor an nowhere to step but the beams) It still took me half an hour to convince him to come and let me get him down. He is definately not all there.

This isn't him is it?

http://mundy.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/03/30/ceiling_cat.jpg

Sorry! I had to do it once I heard he went into your attic. lol

[sharpshooter]

I think that animals are like humans, in some ways.
Some are below average, some are above average, and most are somewhere in the middle.
Was into horses, big time, for a while, the general opinion, is that they generally have the mental capacity of a 3>5 year old.
Doing "trails" training, some "got it" pretty quick, others were somewhat "hard pressed" to learn the "moves".
Now retrievers,,,,,,

[aroman]

My Pug is retarded !!

[Polynitro]

wow I thought horses were kind of smart. Who knew they are a bunch of Yahoos.

[The Last Rebel]

wow I thought horses were kind of smart. Who knew they are a bunch of Yahoos.
No, horses can be about as stupid as animals get. Horses can also be pretty smart. Mainly depends on breed. That's the reason I'll never own an Appaloosa, they're about as stupid as a bag of hammers.

[THebert]

No, never saw an animal that I would say is retarded. Trained some that were much slower than the pack, though. And the inbreeding thing is way overrated. Think of purebred dogs, big time inbreeding, yet basically normal (other than the faults that are inherent in the breed).

By the way, Lucid, you play a mean, or should I say pretty, guitar!

[Ken Ho]

wow I thought horses were kind of smart. Who knew they are a bunch of Yahoos.

Horses are neither smart, nor dumb. You cannot compare them to a human child of any age, unless that child is autistic. Their mental prosesses are quite different to ours.
A horse brain lacks the physical structures requited to reason. they cannot solve the simplest puzzle. Yet they have incorruptible, nearly photographic memories, probably because thye don't reason.
They are associateive leaners. Most of them form associations very quickly, making them easy to train. Some are hard to train, lacking the same sensitivity and mental attention required to form associations.
Stallions are easiest, mares are the toughest, geldings only care about food. Young horses are more open to new experiences, making them easy for me to train. Foals are so easy to train it's almost cheating.

[JDC]

"wow I thought horses were kind of smart. Who knew they are a bunch of Yahoos".

Ironic (or purposeful, I don't know which) that you should use the term "Yahoo" when indicating horses aren't as smart as you once thought.

When you jokingly referred to horses as "Yahoos" it brought to mind the origin of the term/word. These bits of random (to many, useless) information floating around my brain are one of the drawbacks of having taught English Literature, I suppose. lol

ANYHOW...

Do you folks remember the story called Gulliver's Travels? Most people only remember the first part (A Voyage to Lilliput) in which he is stranded in a land of tiny people. That is the part of the book that Disney made into an animated feature. But, Gulliver's Travels actually has four other "voyages".

Part IV of Gulliver's Travels is called either "A Voyage to the Houyhnhnms" or "The Voyage to Houyhnhnm Land". In this portion of Gulliver's Travels , Gulliver is marooned in a place (Houyhnhnmland) where the most intelligent creatures are horses and the boorish, disgusting and untamed creatures are humans. The horses (Houyhnhnms) refer to these humans as "Yahoos".

So, "Yahoo" was originally a designation given, in a place where horses ruled, to a race of stupid and repulsive humans. You used it as a designation for horses in a forum where humans are in control.

Although, that is probably massively boring to many (if not all) of you, it's these little things that make me go "Hmmmmm"

Sorry for the hijack. I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. lol

[konavet]

Horses are neither smart, nor dumb. You cannot compare them to a human child of any age, unless that child is autistic. Their mental prosesses are quite different to ours.
A horse brain lacks the physical structures requited to reason. they cannot solve the simplest puzzle. Yet they have incorruptible, nearly photographic memories, probably because thye don't reason.
They are associateive leaners. Most of them form associations very quickly, making them easy to train. Some are hard to train, lacking the same sensitivity and mental attention required to form associations.
Stallions are easiest, mares are the toughest, geldings only care about food. Young horses are more open to new experiences, making them easy for me to train. Foals are so easy to train it's almost cheating.

Painting with a pretty broad brush there. Not totally disagreeing, but it's just not that simple.

I have seen horses that are "retarded", but it's usually due to their inability to act according to human wishes. They might do OK in the wild. I'm not talking about congenital defects, since those animals would not survive past the neonatal period. The biggest problem for domesticated animals and humans is idiopathic aggression. Otherwise, their individual quirks are usually tolerated, and even enjoyed by many owners.

[Ken Ho]

Painting with a pretty broad brush there. Not totally disagreeing, but it's just not that simple.

I have seen horses that are "retarded", but it's usually due to their inability to act according to human wishes. They might do OK in the wild. I'm not talking about congenital defects, since those animals would not survive past the neonatal period. The biggest problem for domesticated animals and humans is idiopathic aggression. Otherwise, their individual quirks are usually tolerated, and even enjoyed by many owners.

Yes, gneralising a bit, but it's a forum ya know and typing thoughts is so laborious. The factual bits about lacking the structures requied to reason are quoted directly from "The Truth About Horses" by Dr Andrew Maclean, an Australian vet who did a PhD in horse bevahiour. So is the phrase "associative learner". Deducing what associations are driving a horse's behaviour is much more useful than trying to work out what they are "thinking", when they are not.
My comments about autism are derived from my own experiences as well as from many stories told. As such it's an anecdotal thought, but gels quite well with what we do know abbout autism. Stallions are quite autistic , don't you tihnk ??
I never said horses are retarded. I said that they are horses, and comparing their thought processes to ours is pointless, because they operate in a totally different paradigm. Saying they have equivalent intelligence to a 5 year old human is plainly ludicrous. No language, no object permanence, no problem solving ability. Just a totally different and suitable skill set.
Most of the aggression I have seen from my stallions and others is anxiety behaviour. I don't believe it's "idiopathic". There is always a cause, if we look hard enough to find it. Much of it comes during graduation phases, much like we experience anxiety as we go from primary school to secondary school for example. Separation anxiety, esp in entire males who are socially isolated form all other horses is prominent as well. My recently gelded colt went through this at one stage, and it resolved as soon as we gave him a conpanion mare, who he happily bred. The biting bevaviour that was emerging just vanished and he returned to his calm, tractable self. I've found reassurance during these graduation phases to be effective in extinguishing nascent biting also. Most people smack them in the mouth, which just escalates the violence and causes pre-emptive defensive biting from the horse.
I've had Arabians for the last 5 years, and yes, there are lots of quirks to be seen. You would crack up at some of the stuff my silly nags do, as they are all well-handled pets with no behaviour issues and are able to express themselves in shared space quite a lot. A mare we just sold was quite happy to have several strange adults and a cloud of children playing with her and her foal at just few weeks of age, as she associates us with comfort. She also waits until we are around before she foals, whic is not usual either, as you know.
The foal we have that was orphaned at 6 weeks is a particular character.

[trisonic]

Do you folks remember the story called Gulliver's Travels? Most people only remember the first part (A Voyage to Lilliput) in which he is stranded in a land of tiny people. That is the part of the book that Disney made into an animated feature. But, Gulliver's Travels actually has four other "voyages".

Part IV of Gulliver's Travels is called either "A Voyage to the Houyhnhnms" or "The Voyage to Houyhnhnm Land". In this portion of Gulliver's Travels , Gulliver is marooned in a place (Houyhnhnmland) where the most intelligent creatures are horses and the boorish, disgusting and untamed creatures are humans. The horses (Houyhnhnms) refer to these humans as "Yahoos".

So, "Yahoo" was originally a designation given, in a place where horses ruled, to a race of stupid and repulsive humans. You used it as a designation for horses in a forum where humans are in control.

Although, that is probably massively boring to many (if not all) of you, it's these little things that make me go "Hmmmmm"

Sorry for the hijack. I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. lol

Most of TGP never watched the movie(s) let alone read the book........satire is not greatly understood here where irony is sophisticated.

Good try, though!

Best, Pete.

[edwarddavis]

I find it more prevalent in pet owners than the pets themselves.

Seriously though, i don't think i have ever known a dog to be mentally retarded.
thanks , wish I said that

[Teleplayer]

Obviously inbreeding can be a factor...

Maybe, but often times not - at least with the Bulldog breed.

A very high-level, top quality line breeding program takes generations to develop. It is a combination of art, skill and science.

My dog's breeder is one of the top handful of British Bulldog breeders in the world - and is generally regarded as one of the two "Grand Dames" of the breed. She has been at it for 43+ years, and I have had the honor of speaking with and seeing her on various occasions.

I have talked extensively with her about the bloodline she developed, and the other 3-4 in the U.K. that are responsible for setting the breed standard during the past 40 years. It's fascinating; and btw, mental retardation never ever entered the conversation.

[Polynitro]

"wow I thought horses were kind of smart. Who knew they are a bunch of Yahoos".

Ironic (or purposeful, I don't know which) that you should use the term "Yahoo" when indicating horses aren't as smart as you once thought.

When you jokingly referred to horses as "Yahoos" it brought to mind the origin of the term/word. These bits of random (to many, useless) information floating around my brain are one of the drawbacks of having taught English Literature, I suppose. lol

ANYHOW...

Do you folks remember the story called Gulliver's Travels? Most people only remember the first part (A Voyage to Lilliput) in which he is stranded in a land of tiny people. That is the part of the book that Disney made into an animated feature. But, Gulliver's Travels actually has four other "voyages".

Part IV of Gulliver's Travels is called either "A Voyage to the Houyhnhnms" or "The Voyage to Houyhnhnm Land". In this portion of Gulliver's Travels , Gulliver is marooned in a place (Houyhnhnmland) where the most intelligent creatures are horses and the boorish, disgusting and untamed creatures are humans. The horses (Houyhnhnms) refer to these humans as "Yahoos".

So, "Yahoo" was originally a designation given, in a place where horses ruled, to a race of stupid and repulsive humans. You used it as a designation for horses in a forum where humans are in control.

Although, that is probably massively boring to many (if not all) of you, it's these little things that make me go "Hmmmmm"

Sorry for the hijack. I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. lol

That's why I capitalized Yahoo :dunno Do horses eat their colts? One would have to be pretty swift to pick up this reference lol or not.

Anyway, my point was I always assumed horses were at least as smart as dogs and maybe as 'smart' as pigs or dolphins but clearly not apes.

[greggorypeccary]

My little dog isn't retarded, but she is definitely loco!

[Jim Soloway]

I've long suspected that one of my cats is, at the very least, a "special-needs" feline. I know cats are not geniuses, but even compared to her sister, she's dumb as a rock. She's also stubborn as a mule which makes for an interesting combination. On the other hand, she's my favorite animal ever and she has little or no problem getting me to do almost anything she wants, so maybe she's not really all that dumb after all.

[angrybandnerd]

I have a cat that is schizophrenic. No joke that's what two vets diagnosed her with after the near bit her own tail off.

[chrisr777]

This isn't him is it?

http://mundy.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/03/30/ceiling_cat.jpg

Sorry! I had to do it once I heard he went into your attic. lol


No, but it does look just like a cat we lost years ago. I never did check the attic.

[The Golden Boy]

My wife is convinced out cat Dru is retarded.

We have a cat that has figured out how to open doors and how to convincingly hide and trick us into thinking she's not in the room when it's time to feed Dru. She's a very smart cat.

Dru... As much as I love her, I will say that she knows the important stuff- that mommy and daddy love her very much and daddy is a pushover for anything. Anything beyond that... I just won't answer.

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/8850/hpim2370wy3.jpg

[mc2]

HAHA ROFL! This concept is hilarious-I NEVER would have thought about it. That explains a lot of my dog's behaviour!

Thanks for the laughs!

[Julia343]

I had one dog that had a flat learning curve. It was really sad. Her mom was a genius. Her dad was a genius. One of her littermates was a genius. But when they passed out brains she thought they said rain and ran for cover. Yeah it can happen. I gave her to someone who just wanted a companion.

FWIW, this particular one when she was born her mom tried to kill. "something is wrong with this one..... kill it."

[Stew]

One of my dogs is retarded. She's a full blood Blue Merle Shelty. The breeder was an old woman that was losing her mind and the dogs kept breeding on their own. I guess it was a mess when the authorities took the dogs away from her. Our Friends Of Animals ended up with a few of them and we took one to foster until it could be adopted. After awhile we realized it was unadoptable so we kept it. She'll stay outside indefinitly so to keep her from dehydrating we'll get her to come in. I'll call her and she'll just stand there, but by accident we've learned she'll come when we're vacuuming. So now we turn the vacuum on when we want her to come. We have three sliding doors. One of them has a dog door in it. To keep her from going right back outside without eating or drinking i'll cover the dog door. I then open the next sliding door over so our other dogs can get in and out, but she's never figured that she could go out that way. Despite all her wackiness, she is the sweetest dog in the world. When I take the dogs for a walk she is pure happiness and it is infectious.

[Stacatto]

An indoor retarded cat are not worth their weight, or food!

[ImmortalSix]

A hunting buddy has a Golden Retriever that we suspect (but have no official diagnosis) is mentally retarded.

The dog, much like a human, displays behavior symptomatic of a younger being, and shows difficulty in learning or breaking out of habits. The dog is maybe 8 years old now and still displays difficulty executing very basic tasks. The dog is also terrified of thunderstorms / loud noises (not related to hunting, the dog never comes out hunting since he's not a good hunting dog) much like a newborn puppy would be --- even common noises like shutting the dishwasher or a door closing. The dog seems disoriented and afraid when he hears noises like that.

The owner is a sportsman and outdoorsman who's had dogs for 40 years, and has trained most of them to be hunting dogs and is very familiar with and successful at training dogs.

I think it's possible.

[JDC]

Do horses eat their colts? One would have to be pretty swift to pick up this reference lol or not.

Although it's been a long time since I thought "swiftly", on a daily basis, I guess one could consider that "A Modest Proposal" of sorts lol

[Ken Ho]

I guess I see now why horses are able to be held back by the most mediocre of fences. i always wondered why they didn't just jump over and get that grass on the other side instead of craning their necks under the bottom rail.

THis is an interesting one.
There was a case recorded of a couple of hundred yards of fence being erceted in the daily access path of a herd of horses to their water hole. Open ended fence, nothing at either end. The guy who put the fence up thought they would find their way around. Wrong, they died.
OTOH, I had a cheeky Arab filly who was so adept at sliding through fences, she would pop out and steal the neighbours mangoes, then pop back, with me none the wiser. They rang and complained after a month or so of this. I had no idea. Shortly after we moved towns and rented a small farm for a while, with good wire fences. There more Arabs next door. It took her about a min to step throught the fence and acquaint herself. She led our other horses through too, but they could not get through without her. She was a real bugger. Only electric fence could keep her in. She never jumped a fence though. Her trick was a "walk-through", so smooth it looked like a magic trick.
There was another filly bred form strong jumping lines I cared for as a yearling for a while for a friend. She had no qualms about jumping a 5 foot fence if it suited her, yet most champion equestrian horse are as easily restrained by teh mediocre fences you describe. Her sire was locally famous for jumping out of a small yard over a 6 foot fence while in hobbles. He did make it to the Bejing Olympics though. Politics kept him on the bench, sadly.
Jumping is a natural behaviour though, not a novel behaviour.

[Polynitro]

we have wild horses here in virginia beach and they had to pass an ordinance that makes it illegal to be within 10 feet of these things because people were stupidly putting their children on the backs of them.

It's very odd to see a horse walking around on a sand dune.

[Lucidology]

This has turned into some very interesting reading ... thanks folk ...

[rob2001]

THis is an interesting one.
There was a case recorded of a couple of hundred yards of fence being erceted in the daily access path of a herd of horses to their water hole. Open ended fence, nothing at either end. The guy who put the fence up thought they would find their way around. Wrong, they died.
OTOH, I had a cheeky Arab filly who was so adept at sliding through fences, she would pop out and steal the neighbours mangoes, then pop back, with me none the wiser. They rang and complained after a month or so of this. I had no idea. Shortly after we moved towns and rented a small farm for a while, with good wire fences. There more Arabs next door. It took her about a min to step throught the fence and acquaint herself. She led our other horses through too, but they could not get through without her. She was a real bugger. Only electric fence could keep her in. She never jumped a fence though. Her trick was a "walk-through", so smooth it looked like a magic trick.
There was another filly bred form strong jumping lines I cared for as a yearling for a while for a friend. She had no qualms about jumping a 5 foot fence if it suited her, yet most champion equestrian horse are as easily restrained by teh mediocre fences you describe. Her sire was locally famous for jumping out of a small yard over a 6 foot fence while in hobbles. He did make it to the Bejing Olympics though. Politics kept him on the bench, sadly.
Jumping is a natural behaviour though, not a novel behaviour.


About fences....We have 5 quarter horses. When we first moved here, we put the fence up but didn't have a fencer yet. But the horses were moving in regardless. We knew they had respect for an electric fence so I figured a day without a fencer would be OK.

I watched Buddy literally test the fence with his nose, then walk right through it, taking part of it down. Lesson learned on my part.

So we go camping and there are campsites designed for horse riders. They make these portable corrals that use solar fencers. My wife figures, they respect the fence and didn't hook up the fencer. I told her he's gonna test the fence and be loose in short time. Again, I watched buddy test the fence, then walk right through it!

I haven't seen him do this with an established fence, but I think when he gets to a new place and see's a fence, he will test it immediately.


As far as a horses intelligence, I think they are incredibly smart...all breeds. The fact that some are smart in areas that don't benefit us is no measure of their actual intelligence. One might argue that a horse that trains easy is less intelligent than one that trains hard.

[konavet]

As far as a horses intelligence, I think they are incredibly smart...all breeds. The fact that some are smart in areas that don't benefit us is no measure of their actual intelligence. One might argue that a horse that trains easy is less intelligent than one that trains hard.

I agree, but it's the human factor that makes the "smart" horses harder to train. They pick up on subtle cues so fast that you don't even realize that you're doing it, and then you get mad when they don't respond to the proper cues. It's all in the timing and self awareness. The "dim bulbs" can be very hard to train as well, because sometimes they just don't get it, or don't want to get it because eating and hanging out is so much easier.


Back to my earlier post that mentioned idiopathic aggression, I was referring to a distinct clinical syndrome seen in dogs and occasionally horses that appear otherwise normal, except for unpredictable episodes of extreme violent, aggressive behavior. I agree that the overwhelming majority of aggressive behavior in domesticated animals is due to physiologic (pain or disease) or conditioned behavior.

[Ken Ho]

About fences....We have 5 quarter horses. When we first moved here, we put the fence up but didn't have a fencer yet. But the horses were moving in regardless. We knew they had respect for an electric fence so I figured a day without a fencer would be OK.

I watched Buddy literally test the fence with his nose, then walk right through it, taking part of it down. Lesson learned on my part.

So we go camping and there are campsites designed for horse riders. They make these portable corrals that use solar fencers. My wife figures, they respect the fence and didn't hook up the fencer. I told her he's gonna test the fence and be loose in short time. Again, I watched buddy test the fence, then walk right through it!

I haven't seen him do this with an established fence, but I think when he gets to a new place and see's a fence, he will test it immediately.


As far as a horses intelligence, I think they are incredibly smart...all breeds. The fact that some are smart in areas that don't benefit us is no measure of their actual intelligence. One might argue that a horse that trains easy is less intelligent than one that trains hard.

Our horses always know if the dfence is on or off. We have wire fences , with a single electric strand, which is off mostly, but we put it on when we want them to satnd off the fence for any reason, like adding a new horse next door, or when my gelding was still a colt. They test it and either stay away, or graze through it.
A couple of years back I had a stallion who would test his fence 3 times, just like Bart Simpson.
Boys though, do not let fear of pain stop them from doing stuff.
I can't agree that horses are smart though. I don't really think it's sueful to assess them in that way either.
However, having seen a horse fall over the only potenetial obstruction in it's paddock, it's water trough, ans smash it's leg so bad it needed to be put down, I do thend to think of them as self-desturctive hand-grenades. Not my horse. A cotton-wooled precious. Mine all have "teaching" paddocks.

[Groovey Records]

mares eat oats

and does eat oats

and little lambs eat ivy

a kid will eat ivy too

wouldn't you

[sodapopinski]

I never thought about this until I saw that Family Guy episode with the horse... lol