Alnico speaker recommendation?

[zachhahn]

I like the general tone of the stock Jensen P12Q RI in my Beaufort Special, but would like tighter bass and more headroom.

What alnico speaker fits the bill?
RI P12N? some Weber? Tone Tubby...?

I'd appreciate any input.
Thanks.

[atson67]

I like the general tone of the stock Jensen P12Q RI in my Beaufort Special, but would like tighter bass and more headroom.

What alnico speaker fits the bill?
RI P12N? some Weber? Tone Tubby...?

I'd appreciate any input.
Thanks.

Very seriously: Jensen Blackbird ! If you already dig the P12Q you will love the Blackbird.

[zachhahn]

if you want tighter bass and more headroom - are you sure you want an alnico speaker? If you like the way alnico compresses - alnico is for you. Otherwise, you can get more of both from an alnico speaker though it's easier to get in that territory with ceramic.

Thanks for the response, Joe.
I like and want to keep the alnico characteristics, as I'm also using a Jensen Blackbird (100W) in another amp.

What I like about P12Q is the bright and "papery" tones; Clark 5E3 can be a bit dark otherwise.

The BB sounds a bit dark with the Beaufort.
Didn't like EVM12 or Emi Legend in it, either; i like the softer and delicate compression of P12Q.

I just need a bit more headroom and tighter bass response without sacrificing the alnico goods.....

[zachhahn]

Very seriously: Jensen Blackbird ! If you already dig the P12Q you will love the Blackbird.

BB is surely a nice speaker.
I love mine in Mesa Mark I RI.

When I hooked it up to my beaufort, I thought it was a bit too dark, though.

[slider313]

A Jensen P12P or P12N.

[DeaconBlues]

Maybe a tube change is more appropriate for you than a speaker change, if you like the P12Q. Try a lower gain tube in V1. If you are using a 12AX7 in V1, a 5157 will give you a bit more headroom and smoother breakup. If you are already using a 12AY7 there then you may be as close as you will get. Maybe a 12AU7 could get you there, too. You could try a 12AT7, but then you start to get a little too bright and brittle...for my taste. But, hey, give it a shot.

[Macaroni]

Fane AXA12 - 100W and/or Fane AXA10 - 100W. Very 3D, acoustic tones - handles anything you can throw at it. I also like the Celestion Gold.

[6stringer]

check out the alinco from Austin Speaker Works

www.austinspeakerworks.com (http://www.austinspeakerworks.com)

[Seegs]

Fane AXA12 - 100W and/or Fane AXA10 - 100W. Very 3D, acoustic tones - handles anything you can throw at it. I also like the Celestion Gold.

agree on the Fane Alnicos...they hold the bass end together better than any of the alnicos I've heard...

Chow,
Seegs

[zachhahn]

Maybe a tube change is more appropriate for you than a speaker change, if you like the P12Q. Try a lower gain tube in V1. If you are using a 12AX7 in V1, a 5157 will give you a bit more headroom and smoother breakup. If you are already using a 12AY7 there then you may be as close as you will get. Maybe a 12AU7 could get you there, too. You could try a 12AT7, but then you start to get a little too bright and brittle...for my taste. But, hey, give it a shot.

i hear ya.
i am already using a 12AY7 on v1, as well as a 5Y3, instead of GZ34 that came with the amp; this combination gets me closer to that old school 5E3 sound i like.

[zachhahn]

got it.

Look at the Weber 12A12* or 12A15* speakers. webervst.com. 12A125A or 12A15OT - something like that.

You could branch out into Chicago or California which would be pretty cool IMHO.


thanks again, joe.
i think 12A150* is supposed to be colse to P12N, right?
i will shoot an email to Weber to find out which cone type would work for me.

[zachhahn]

Macaroni and Seeg.

Thanks for a fresh (to me) perspective on Fane.
I've never heard one before, but am curious now.
I'll do some research on Fane.

Macaroni,
is there a local place where I can hear one? (I am also in L.A.)

[DeaconBlues]

I've tried various speakers in my Clark Beaufort. Currently, I've got the Weber 12A125A loaded into it. It has more headroom and a tighter bottom end than the Brit type speakers I've tired in it previously (Celestion Blue, Celestion G12 Century Neo, Weber A1230). The Celestion G12 Century was louder and may have had an edge on headroom, but I like the 12A125A better for this amp. The Celestion Blue had a nice top end, but the mids and bottom end didn't appeal to me. I liked the Weber A1230 better. It seemed more balanced than the C. Blue. Though both are completely different, it's a toss up between both of the Webers (12A125A and A1230)as to which one will stay in this amp.

[NFB]

Emi Red Fang.http://www.thegearpage.net/board/images/icons/icon14.gif

[vandi]

EV SRO? or I second the ASW Eligante. Both beautiful speakers.

[FFTT]

You bring up a good point about AlNiCo drivers in general.

My limited experience tells me that you are going to get more of that
expected sing out of these speakers when you power match fairly closely.

My 75 watt Blue Dog AlNiCo just wasn't working hard enough
when I tried it in my Ampeg R12R.

The top end was smooth and sweet at lower volumes
but the speaker never really sang right with this amp
only pushing 28 watts wide open.

Paired up with my EVM12L and running my Hot Cat 100R
now the Weber sings like you expect it to on the lead tones.

It's all experimental, but I'm all for pairing up AlNiCos with ceramics
to get the best tonal blends.

[Curly]

I have this same problem.

I'm using the P12Q RI in a couple of amps -- my Mission 5E3, and Vicky Double Deluxe. I have to admit that I was in a little denial about this speaker -- it does distort!
I like the tone, but I assumed the distortion I heard in my Mission amp was due to sloppy wiring on my part ... until I tried a couple in my Double Deluxe, and noticed the same type of distortion.

And when I say "distortion", I mean distortion, not a musical break up.

I'm almost of the opinion that this speaker is flawed in some way, because at a 40 watt rating, this should not happen, even in a tweed Deluxe.

I also have a '56 Deluxe. I have used a similar low power alnico in that for years without the same problem.

I have a Weber 12A125-O on order, and I'll test it to see if it holds up better. I did see that the -A version has tighter bass, so that's an option for some people.
Personally, I want a singing blues tone, so I do try to match the speaker closer to the amp's power.

[DeaconBlues]

I have this same problem.

I'm using the P12Q RI in a couple of amps -- my Mission 5E3, and Vicky Double Deluxe. I have to admit that I was in a little denial about this speaker -- it does distort!
I like the tone, but I assumed the distortion I heard in my Mission amp was due to sloppy wiring on my part ... until I tried a couple in my Double Deluxe, and noticed the same type of distortion.

And when I say "distortion", I mean distortion, not a musical break up.

I'm almost of the opinion that this speaker is flawed in some way, because at a 40 watt rating, this should not happen, even in a tweed Deluxe.

I also have a '56 Deluxe. I have used a similar low power alnico in that for years without the same problem.

I have a Weber 12A125-O on order, and I'll test it to see if it holds up better. I did see that the -A version has tighter bass, so that's an option for some people.
Personally, I want a singing blues tone, so I do try to match the speaker closer to the amp's power.

I've got a 20 watt Weber 12A125A in my 5E3 (currently) and yes the bass is tight, but there is still just enough looseness in the speaker to sing on the top end when you hit it with some volume. The Weber A1230 I have is a 30 watt speaker and is more in the Celestion Alnico ballpark tonally, but more balanced across the spectrum from top to bottom. Less middy sounding, IMHO. Even though it's rated for more watts than the 12A125A, it is not quite as tight on the bottom end and sings more on the top end. Of course, it's well broken in and the 12A125A is still new.

[toneispower]

Like I tell everyone.. buy a Celestion Gold and you're done. -kyle

[tweed135]

I have a Weber 12F125-A that does what you are saying. Probably too much of a good thing if you want classic alnico 5E3 tone though.

I also have a Weber 12A150-B that sounds glorious in a 5E3. That speaker is a great match with tweed Fender style amps.

[zachhahn]

some good discussion here.

Joe:
Clark Beaufort is a Tweed Deluxe clone. I think it's about 12W, with 5Y3.
I did replace the rect. tube in order to achieve softer, vintage sound by dropping the voltage. I left the stock Tung-Sol RI 6V6's in it; they sound just fine.
I know that the bass becomes even flubbier (5e3's known for the flubby bass) with the power section sag, but this was a calculated compromise I took in exchange for the overall tonal change.

I know that the amp with 5Y3 is capable of producing tighter bass and more head room with a speaker that does not break up (or distort, as Curly described above) so early/easily as P12Q.

FFTT:
i agree with you on driving a high-power-(rated) speaker with a low-powered amp; depending on the speaker/amp combination, the lack of power could not drive the speaker properly.

Curly:
i'd love to hear how 12A125-O compares to 12A125A.

thanks all for chiming in.

[bluesjuke]

I have a Clark Beaufort and a Vicky 20112.
The Vicky has a P12Q and the Clark a P12N.
I treied each amp throught the others cabinet so while not a true test with each their own cabinet I did notice some differences.

The Clark played through the P12Q was broighter and looser.
The Vicky with through the P12N was tighter in the low end and only slightly not as bright.

The P12N in the Clark has a good solid sound that is hard to get any flub in.

The more I've played it the better the speaker has become.

I'm sticking with that in the Clark.

[FFTT]

It's wise to pay close attention to the speaker efficiency when looking at any speaker.

Some of the lower power rated AlNiCo's have SPL specs near 100dB, while
several of the higher power rated AlNiCo's may be closer to 97 dB, depending
on who makes it.

Selecting the wrong efficiency for your situation can mean you have chosen a speaker
that may be either too quiet or too loud for your needs.

The Weber 12A125A is a great lower efficiency, small magnet choice for studio applications where overall tone is more important than live performance projection.

The benefit of choosing a low efficiency driver is that you can push your amp
harder to get natural break-up without getting too loud.

If you are looking for a speaker to help you cut through in a live mix,
you might want to select a more efficient driver.

[zachhahn]

The Weber 12A125A is a great lower efficiency, small magnet choice for studio applications where overall tone is more important than live performance projection.

If you are looking for a speaker to help you cut through in a live mix,
you might want to select a more efficient driver.

one of the problems of RI P12Q in my application (live, clean sound) is the lower efficiency (95db/40W). i know people usually don't use 5E3's for clean sound, but i am a jazz player and happen to like the sound and the "feel" of the amp. i have other amps for different applications, but wanted to bring out the clean sound from the amp with less bass flub.

hence my initial thought for P12N (98db/50W).
though my Blackbird is also rated at 98db, somehow the amp does not "sing" or "breathe" the same way with it.

it's a balancing act.

[zachhahn]

I have a Clark Beaufort and a Vicky 20112.
The Vicky has a P12Q and the Clark a P12N.
I treied each amp throught the others cabinet so while not a true test with each their own cabinet I did notice some differences.

The Clark played through the P12Q was broighter and looser.
The Vicky with through the P12N was tighter in the low end and only slightly not as bright.

The P12N in the Clark has a good solid sound that is hard to get any flub in.

The more I've played it the better the speaker has become.

I'm sticking with that in the Clark.

thank you for sharing very helpful experience and insight.
exactly the kind of info i was looking for.
i appreciate it.

[FFTT]

I went through 4 speakers in my "64 Reverberocket trying to find one that held together on the low end since this amp tends to sound dark, which can get muddy or boomy if you play towards the neck pick-up positons at higher volumes.

In the end result, the Fane Axiom 12 75 Ceramic delivered the best clarity, tight bottom and very pleasing crunch. The top is grainy but not at all harsh.

[Macaroni]

I just played my 30W Kingsley D32C with the Power Scaling set around 2:00 (full up is 5:00). I was driving an EVM12L (200W) + Fane AXA12 (100W) and it was singing sweetly. The amp was pushing the speakers to very nice sweet spots with no problem.

If I needed it to cut even more, all I'd have to do is turn the PS all the way up and it would push/punch even harder.

I also tried the EVM10L (200W) + Fane AXA10 (100W) and that was stunning! I'm not sure how an amp < 30W would do, but the Kingsley does fine.

Naturally, with those combinations, the bottom was rock solid.

[DeaconBlues]

it's a balancing act.

You've said a lot with that statement. I've spent a lot of time and money chasing that balance with a lot of amps and even more speakers.

[DeaconBlues]

I also have a Weber 12A150-B that sounds glorious in a 5E3. That speaker is a great match with tweed Fender style amps.

I have Weber's Neo version of the 15A150B in a tweed Pro, the Weber 15N150B. I love the sound of that cone with that amp. The amp originally came with a Jensen P15P and the 15N150B was Weber's recommendation for a neo version of that speaker. Not only does it fit the tweed voice of that amp, it sounds better overall than the vintage Jensen AlNiCo that it replaced.
I'd have that speaker in my Clark 5E3, if Weber ever got them back in stock.

Would that be my "end all/be all" speaker? See my previous post.:dunno

[zachhahn]

Not only does it fit the tweed voice of that amp, it sounds better overall than the vintage Jensen AlNiCo that it replaced.


"the tweed voice"......is what i'd like to keep on my 5E3 after replacing the speaker. i don't want it to sound like a vox or marshall.
i guess 12N150B would be the 12" counter part.

[solitaire]

Going with a british cone speaker won't make it sound like a Vox or Marshall, but it will put emphasis on certain frequencies in the spectrum. There are quite a number who have e.g. gone with Fanes or similar for Fender type amps of various sorts to make the amp handle distortion better and/ or achieve a warmer tone.

But then it won't sound specifically true to the jazzy/ bluesy vibe of the era of the amp. Not true historically.

[zachhahn]

Going with a british cone speaker won't make it sound like a Vox or Marshall, but it will put emphasis on certain frequencies in the spectrum. There are quite a number who have e.g. gone with Fanes or similar for Fender type amps of various sorts to make the amp handle distortion better and/ or achieve a warmer tone.

indeed.
the peaks and valleys of differently voiced speakers will render different "flavors" to different amps.

the "classic" combination of speaker/amp (e.g. Cele. Blue and Vox, Marshall and Greenback, etc) helps define the particular sonic traits people look for.
i think the old jensen alnico and 5E3 combo is one of them, and i personally find it pleasing for my low-volume, clean jazz application.

[tweed135]

I'd be nervous that the Neo setup with that speaker would be too JBL/hi-fi sounding. That's what the neo mag speakers seem to be geared for, higher efficiency and everything else done with a low weight magnet.

Anyway, the 12A150-B still sounds American but with a really different voice. It sounds like the killer Weber 12A150 with a different mid range and different top end. Very cool. I originally had the 150B's in a Double Deluxe. That was a wicked combo. Takes the 5E3 to a slightly higher level. I have an extra one I need to get rid of.

The 50 watt version is the way to go...much warmer than the 30 watt version.