Boutique Marshall opinions, please

[dirtyguitar]

I've been playing Matchless and BC 4el84 amps for so long, I forgot what got me goin in the first place, I love them but I just bought a copy of How the West Was Won on CD and the guitar tone's page was getting on "Since I've Been Loving You" gav e me a serious Marshall woodie!

I'm not a true vintage guy cause I need reliability so...Mojave, Blockhead, Germino, Roccaforte? Which one do you guys like and why and>>> Is there a lower power version that nails that 'Page' tone?

Your input is greatly appreciated....

Thanks

Chris

[esw]

Check out the demo video for the 20/22 watt handwired Marshall that just came out. Sounds VERY Pagey.

I used to come very close with a 1987x and an old 4x12 with greenbacks.

[TheAmpNerd]

Originally posted by dirtyguitar
I'm not a true vintage guy cause I need reliability so...Mojave, Blockhead, Germino, Roccaforte? Which one do you guys like and why and>>> Is there a lower power version that nails that 'Page' tone?

Your input is greatly appreciated....

Thanks

Chris

I'd check out some of Doug's mid power ranged amps, if you are looking for that tone. Doug
is a great guy and makes great amps.

Plus, his build quality is excellent!

Doug's a huge fan of Page--nuff said?

[Joe F]

not sure how close to nailing pagey it is, but the Mojave Peacemaker and lower watt Scorpion seem pretty good for updated Marshall tones. I would not go with EL84's though. 34's at least. I think Pages stage amps were slightly modded and had KT88's in there (headroom and a little out put boost but not much as I think the iron was stock - not to start a Page's amps debate).

The only amp I ever heard with my own ears that made me think PAGE was a Roccaforte. No idea what model. I believe a tone bender was in front of it? Or something, it's been a while.

[mailman]

Originally posted by dirtyguitar
...I'm not a true vintage guy cause I need reliability so...Mojave, Blockhead, Germino, Roccaforte? Which one do you guys like...
Chris [/B]

Vintage...reliability...hmmmm...I smell THD.;)

[JWR]

I have a Mojave Peacemaker. However, for the J Page stuff I have a '72 Marshall Super Lead that is classic tone defined. The Super lead has less gain but has more high end than the Mojave which aggressive and is voiced slightly darker.

[908SSP]

In my opinion for a plexi sound from 1watt to 100 you can't beat the Maven Peal Ganesha. It just sounds real and I have a near mint 69 Marshall to compare it to. The Ganesha is better in many ways not the least being the adjustable wattage. Check out their website for all the details because there is a lot of them.

[wichita]

Why don't you just buy an early 70's metal panel 50 watt Marshall and play through that?

I really don't get all this copying Marshall business that goes on these days. There are well serviced affordable Marshalls out there that sound great.
Page played a Marshall, you can too.

[wichita]

Well,
That all sounds reasonable but a Marshall still gets that sound, biasing has been something that has been done on amps for years...no biggie, the noise level is not all that bad on a properly serviced Marshall, and why pay boutique prices to get a tone that is available from the source at a reasonable amount of money?

That whole thing of guys going through a dozen boutique Marshalls looking for Jimmy Page's tone is just goofy. Buy a freakin' Marshall...

[kannibul]

Originally posted by Maven Peal
Well, Marshalls do present a few problems:

(1) The only volume Marshalls sound great at is blasting (IMO), which gets old, not only for you but everyone else, as well as eventually causing hearing loss, not only for you but everyone else

(2) You have to pay your tech has to bias the tubes every time you need a new one (unless you want to--or even know how to--open the chassis and expose yourself to high voltages)

(3) Your tech is limited to biasing the tubes as a group instead of biasing each tube individually, which means you have to buy expensive matched pairs

(4) Your stuck using one type of tube (whether EL34s or 6550s--either way you're stuck)

(5) You have to put all your time-based effects in front of the Marshall

(6) You have to live with and accept a TON of that Marshall hum (which costs you more during recording filtering this out)

(7) You sound different every time the wall voltage changes

As for Mr. Page, he just didn't have access to any solutions back then.

Dave

#1 Attenuator, or a Post Phase Inverter master, or both!
#2 you have to do that anyway
#3 what kind of expense? Tubes are sold in matched sets more often than not, and when you blow one, you *should* replace the set anyway.
#4 You can have it modded to allow for either, just need a rebias.
#5 When those Marshalls were built, they didn't have FX Loops. You could always have one put in...
#6 Hum? Ok, sure - whatever...
#7 Every amp has this "problem"

[kannibul]

Originally posted by Maven Peal
Yes, biasing has been around for years, but you have always had to pay your tech money to bias your Marshall (until most recently with the 18/20 models if I'm correct... have to admit I don't know how that works). But at $50 to $200 or more a pop, safely and accurately biasing without a tech *is* a biggie. So is the cost savings of not having to buy matched tubes.

And all this doesn't even take into account the amout of time you spend dragging your amp to and fro to the tech.

More importantly above 20 watts gets pretty tiring pretty quick, even with earplugs, IMO. So that's not only bad for practicing, its bad for your hearing, which is ultimately bad for your playing cause when you do practice, you can't hear it anyway.

I'd rather spend a few more bucks up front to save time and money down, along with my hearing... but then again, I *am* biased... in about 30 seconds, almost daily!
:dude

Dave

www.webervst.com - buy a Bias Rite.

Pull the chassis, plug one of the power tubes into the bias-rite, plug it into the chassis, look for the trim pot on the inside, and adjust as needed.

I've got a Marshall TSL - which has external bias controls. Soudns great at low volumes, and better as I turn up.

I've also got an Orange Rockerverb 100. I have to pull the chassis even if I want to change a preamp tube (because of where they are located).

And $50-$200? Wow. I wish I was your tech - I'd be making a killing off you....they should be charging no more than $30, provided that you supply the tubes.

[wichita]

So....what Marshall sounding amp are you for people buying that solves all of these horrible problems that we should not have to deal with pray tell?

[wichita]

This thread is getting really weird:confused:

Is there a seperate section for dealers advertising themselves?

[GuitarNorton]

Ganesha or Tuskadaro all the Marshall tone you could ever ask for. At any volume and an idiot like me can set the bias in no time without lighting myself up. Sounds way better than an attenuated amp or a master volume amp, no comparision, best low volume and high volume Marshall amp!!Maven Peal (http://www.mavenpeal.com/)

[wichita]

Well I think that it was all too obvious that you were getting around to some shameless self promotion, I just figured I would help you pull the trigger on that.

[dirtyguitar]

From what Iv'e been able to gather so far (thank you ALL for your .02) is that Germino(allman), Rocca(page) and Blockhead(?) are the vintage deal and Mojave(VH) and Maven Peal(VH) are the High Gain deal.

I know that is a can of worms but for the sake of simplification ,....

The sites that have clips are so treated that it is impossible to get any real feel for the differences,

Also , there seems to be a huge bias towards strat/teles,... in the clips, feel free to tell me IFOS

I'm looking for the cleaner/blusier sounds of page with the 100 watt super with the kt88s (yes they were) in an amp that either has a convincing master volume or built in variac or is otherwise able to sound the part in a 200 seat hall of drunkards,...you know the drill.


ALL of your opinions are appreciated,

DG

[dirtyguitar]

Dave,

Thanks for expounding. The point is that to play an amp alone in an old empty church does not leave one with an objective sense of what it sounds like, no matter how cool the player or clip. But ,.. others have even more processed signals on their sites so I am not pointing a finger at you per se. I'm sure your amps rip.

[kannibul]

Originally posted by Maven Peal
I'm in Vermont, so $30 would work here, but not in LA, where I haven't had an amp biased, but been told it can go past $200 for a simple bias job.

Even at $30 a pop, plus my time lugging my amp somewhere that I'm not going to play it at, and my gas (in Vermont, this is signficant), paying to bias your amp adds up pretty quickly, especially with new tubes.

Weber's Bias Rite kit is cool if you want to take the time to pull the chassis, expose yourself to high voltage, and continue paying premium prices for matched tubes because you have to. Of courrse, you still have no flavor choice being stuck with either EL34s or 6550s.

I personally prefer, and am having fun, biasing each tube (from a healthy list of possible flavors) individually, directly from the back panel, without taking the amp apart, in about 30 seconds. AFAIK, no Marshall amp does that with *any* kit.

BTW, what is the street price on a new Marshall reissue these days?

Dave

My God, it's as if the volts are just waiting to JUMP OUT AT YA!

Better use wireless, you never know...

Fear = ignorance

[kannibul]

Originally posted by Maven Peal
I'm am very sorry to offend you with this information. This, after all, is the "Amp Technical Info" section. You asked why anyone would want to buy a boutique Marshall style amp when you can buy a Marshall.

I have several technical, concrete reasons why people would not want to buy a Marshall. The solutions Maven Peal amps offer have been documented here and elsewhere. The questions you asked after I listed the problems Marshalls posed I don't believe could be addressed by any other amp company other than Maven Peal.

Moderators, please remove my answers if they are inappropriate. Otherwise, I really appreciate the questions, keep 'em coming.

Dave

Who are you - Fab Amps?

[kannibul]

Originally posted by Maven Peal
I'm am very sorry to offend you with this information. This, after all, is the "Amp Technical Info" section. You asked why anyone would want to buy a boutique Marshall style amp when you can buy a Marshall.

I have several technical, concrete reasons why people would not want to buy a Marshall. The solutions Maven Peal amps offer have been documented here and elsewhere. The questions you asked after I listed the problems Marshalls posed I don't believe could be addressed by any other amp company other than Maven Peal.

Moderators, please remove my answers if they are inappropriate. Otherwise, I really appreciate the questions, keep 'em coming.

Dave

Those were not concrete answers. My responses to your "problem" with Marshall were the REAL answers. Everything beyond that is your sad attempt at marketing.

[GuitarNorton]

kannibul You need to lighten up brother, we're all here to help each other out around here
:)

[kannibul]

Originally posted by Maven Peal
IMO, tonally suck and more suck. Technically many amp makers recommend against attenuators because they change power amp OD and are very hard on your output transformer and tubes, (which can get expensive and time consuming if you keep blowing them out and have to keep having them biased by a tech).

Have you heard of the Sag Circuit?

No, you don't. Have you heard of BiaSmart?

An unmatched pair of NOS Mullard are at least $100 cheaper than a matched pair. With BiaSmart (which I'm assuming you don't know about) you don't need to replace the entire set. Each tube is biased individually.

Yes, exactly! And you have to have it modded and then biased every time you want to change your tube flavor. The Ganesha and Tusk allow you to use almost every flavor octal tube (you can check the entire list on our site if you're interested).

Yes, you could, but then there you go giving money to your tech again. The Ganesha has a gold-plated relay true-bypass DualQuadFX loop. Even at full retail, the Ganesha is gonna be cheaper than having a tech add and subtract an FX loop every time you want to make a change.

I've actually been told by an executive at a very large company that the hum is "a part of the sound." Whatever dude, I'm thinking big stars and studio musicians are paying big bucks to filter out that good ol' Marshall hum that we all know and love (or not). With the Sag Circuit, you don't have to pay that expense.

Except Maven Peal amps. The Sag Circuit's new power supply design even keeps the heater voltage at a constant value when the wall voltage changes. No need to spend money on a power conditioner, you sound the same where ever and whenever you are with the Sag Circuit.

Thanks for asking.

Dave

BiaSmart - a product you're plugging? no thanks.

I'm very happy with my BiasRite.

Funny how you went RIGHT PAST my point about my Marshall TSL 100 having bias points on the back. I guess that doesn't help sell your products, does it?

[kannibul]

Originally posted by GuitarNorton
kannibul You need to lighten up brother, we're all here to help each other out around here
:)

It irritates the hell out of me when someone slams products to make their's look better.

Fords suck - cause their FORD - but you could buy this, uh, "kannibul" Pinto, and you'll be the envy of everyone!!

[dirtyguitar]

Uh, yeah,....but does it have the TONE?

;)

[dirtyguitar]

Dave,

Fair enuff, the quest goes on....:D

Chris

[kannibul]

Originally posted by Maven Peal
kannibul, I never said that Marshalls "suck." I said attenuators, etc., IMO "suck." Marshalls are tremendous, historic amps that come with a long list of issues that Maven Peal amps solve. Again, the initial question was "Why buy a boutique amp when you can buy a Marshall?" I presented a list of concrete, technical answers to this question.

You said a post-phase inverter master volume sucks. You also presented a list of items that only serve to present your amps as a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. If Marshall is the sound someone wants, then that person should get a Marshall.


Many amps have bias test points on the back, that's why I didn't comment on this post. Here's more technical info, but you may see it as marketing

These bias points are voltage test points. What you really need to measure is the current going through the tube. Voltage test points require a resistor be inserted in series with the tube; so in fact, you are measuring the voltage drop that the current is causing across the resistor. You are not measuring the current going through the tube directly.

So, not only are you putting an extra devise in the signal path (which is never a good idea), the accuracy of your measurement is now dependent on the accuracy of the resistor value. Additionally, you can only adjust the bias on all two/four power tubes, not individually, again requiring you to purchase matched sets of tubes.


More components in a signal path being a bad idea? WTF kind of BS is that?! Tell me that a Bogner XTC sounds like crap - it has a TON of components in the signal path!

You use a Precision resistor (ie, 0% tolerance) - and by ohms law, you can know the amount of current. The only other way is to interrupt the circuit and have the current flow through the meter, at full voltage.



But having bias test points is certainly a step in the right direction for Marshall, and I wasn't aware that they had made this step. Thank you for letting me know.

No, I'm not Fab Amps, just Maven Peal with a couple of patents, a Guitar Player Editor's Pick Award and Exotica review, along with Vintage Guitar and Tone Quest reviews. Don't honestly know who Fab Amps is... aren't they from Harmony Central?

BiasRite is cool if you're okay with taking the chassis apart and exposing yourself to high voltages. In an old Marshall, these voltages are in the neighborhood of 500 volts DC--enough to kill you dead. I've heard they are 400 to 450 in the reissues, but have not tested this myself. Unless you're an experienced tech, I highly recommend not taking the chassis apart to bias an amp for any reason. The only ignorance is not fearing the power of 500 volts.

I guess you don't know what a Bias Rite is, or how to bias an amp. You have to pull the chassis to access the bias pot, something people have been doing for decades. the Bias Rite sits in a socket, and you adjust the bias pot to achieve your bias level. Experienced tech? I'm surely not one. However, you certainly set off my BS meter.


BiaSmart is a feature on all our amps; not a product I'm plugging. Again, just technically explaining why Maven Peal amps solve the problems presented by Marshall amps.


Does it exist on any other manufactures amps? If not, then it is a product/feature that you are using to promote your own products. "Problems" - yeah, right....


Sir, I am deeply and sincerely sorry for "irritating the hell out of you." I had no idea that the technicalities of these issues were so close to your heart as to upset you so deeply... almost as if you were Mr. Marshall himself!

dirtyguitar, I agree with you about the old school house clips, but that's where we happened to be at the time. We did have some very polished processed clips for a while, but people felt they were overly processed, and I agreed with that as well. We're working on more. Mitch will be psyched to hear you think he's a cool player ;) Maybe we'll keep him. As for tone, that is up to you guys.

Happy new year.

Dave

You also forgot to mention how many amps have bleeder resistors and drop the voltages quickly enough to where, by the time the chassis is pulled, there is well under 50VDC left in the amp. My Orange bleeds it off in 3-4 seconds, from 436VDC. My TSL 100 bleeds off the voltage within 10 seconds.

Most bias pots I have come across have been in areas where there isn't high voltage nearby. It's not like the voltages will just waiting to FLY out and zap you at the first opportunity.

Sorry man, but your problems presented are nothing more than playing into peoples fears, because they don't know better.

Who said you *have* to buy Mullards anyway...

[kannibul]

Originally posted by GuitarNorton
kannibul You need to lighten up brother, we're all here to help each other out around here
:)

I didn't realize you were a cohort in advertising this Peal guy. I guess I missed that earlier post.

I'm not appologizing anymore - this guy is blatantly advertising in a technical forum, instead of the dealer section.

[kannibul]

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=7

There ya go Mr. Peal.

[dirtyguitar]

I started this thread because OLD amps are NOT reliable, nor as well engineered as the best of today's. ALSO a minty JTM 45 will set you back well more than any of the boutique copies,... so... Why the hell would I want an antique when I can have the same tone or better for less coin and with less headaches?

Boutique RULES over vintage in my not-so-humble opinion.

BUT I've NEVER had to rebias a Matchless or Bad Cat...fwiw

Dave, plug away, I mean for cryin out loud I ASKED!

Is your variable wattage accomplished by attennuator or variac?

:horse

[908SSP]

I own a Ganesha so that I can have a Marshall to play any time I want. I also own three Marshalls they look great on display. I light them up once in a while just to warm them up and maybe compare them to the Ganesha which I play at least three or four times a week (other amps in rotation) I can't answer your question because the technology is over my head I can tell that it is neither a variac or an attenuator. It is a little magical if you ask me as the sound is just incredible and at a volume that is not objectionable. An interesting side effect of the power control on the Ganesha is the amp actually runs cooler when the power is turned down unlike an attenuator where the amp runs just as hot if not hotter. I asked if this would make the tubes last longer and was told it would this is something that I have to take on faith as 6 months isn't long enough to wear out any tubes. I will point out that there is one negative aspect to the Ganesha it is physically huge. The biggest amp head I have ever seen while it makes no real difference to me as I don't carry it anywhere it would be unfair not to mention the only negative thing I can think of.

http://tinyurl.com/6atkg
something is wrong with the web page code as this should appear as a picture not a link.

[grantster]

For some cool plexi type tones try Stephenson amps stage hog pedal. It actually is a tube preamp type pedal with a 1 or 2 watt output tranny that can be used as an amp or as a pedal. It is amazing when you hook this thing into a cab or use it to drive the front of an amp. He also has his LJ series that can be dialled in to sound very marshally. They are power scaled so you can get power tube distortion at 1 watt up to 30.

[GuitarNorton]

Originally posted by kannibul
I didn't realize you were a cohort in advertising this Peal guy. I guess I missed that earlier post.

I'm not appologizing anymore - this guy is blatantly advertising in a technical forum, instead of the dealer section.

LOL cohort in advertising! thats a good one! I bought my amp just like everyone else, I don't get any perks.
This is my last reply. All I want to say is do a search for Ganesha and read some of the reviews and replys by Malabarmusic, smilefan and 908sp, they are much better at describing the amp than I am. You'll find they pretty much say everything Dave has said and more.
I'm telling you kannibul it does the marshall thing and much more.
Peace brother:dude Free your mind and your--- will follow!

[BIGGERSTAFF]

Sounds like someone missed their nap. Perhaps a bit of civility might be in order. Dave mentioned some legitimate points, in response to a question. If a builder isn't enthusiastic about their wares, why should anyone else be?- and I don't see a problem with him pointing out differences in design. If one is happy with their amp, then great, but if everyone liked the same thing we'd only need one amp manufacturer.

[malabarmusic]

Originally posted by BIGGERSTAFF
Sounds like someone missed their nap. Perhaps a bit of civility might be in order. Dave mentioned some legitimate points, in response to a question. If a builder isn't enthusiastic about their wares, why should anyone else be?- and I don't see a problem with him pointing out differences in design. If one is happy with their amp, then great, but if everyone liked the same thing we'd only need one amp manufacturer. Word.

I welcome posts on the regular forums from Dave, Doug, Andy, Randall, Joe, and all the other builders. Their participation is part of what makes TGP special. If one feels that a builder's "enthusiasm" comes across as too "salesy," then don't read the posts, use the "Ignore" function, and/or don't buy his amps!

I think Lance has a valid point in that you can easily obtain the classic Marshall tone by buying a classic Marshall. If you don't mind the compromises, then you're good to go without necessarily spending boutique dollars.

Those that don't care for the inconsistencies, build quality issues, and servicing requirements of a vintage piece have many great choices available to them. Blockhead offers what appear to be pretty faithful (actually, anally detailed ;) ) reproductions of the originals built with an eye toward maximum quality. Germino also has stellar build quality, and uses the original Marshalls as starting points for his own design twists. Some of his models target a very specific Marshall tone, while others strive for a more original orbit within the same solar system.

Roccaforte's most well-known amps aim squarely at the classic Marshall zone. Doug doesn't do the replica thing, but uses "that" tone as a starting point from which the player can dial in more gain or control levels with a well-designed Master Volume. Like the others mentioned, Doug's premium prices reflect first-rate build quality to go along with the premium tone. Mojave and Aiken are two other well-regarded names that offer different paths toward that Marshall flavor.

Dave Z.'s Maven Peal amps (Ganesha and Tuskadero) really are a whole different ball of wax. The basic circuit (preamp, tone stack, power amp) is almost dead-on Plexi. The power supply, however, is unique (patented, actually) and provides all of the benefits previously addressed. It's important to note that it can easily be dialed in for full on 100-watt Marshall-style fury. That same tone is preserved, though, when one dials down the wattage level to much more audience/bandmate/player-friendly levels. Unlike variacs, attenuators, or MVs, this adjustable wattage feature imposes zero changes on the behavior of the preamp, power amp, or OT->speaker interface. This is not hype, but rather the ultimate accomplishment in taming the SPLs produced by the tube circuits we all love.

The power supply also lets one adjust power supply sag to taste, from in your face Hiwatt-like spank to ultra-saggy and compressed like a Tweed Deluxe with a faulty rectifier tube. Some may prefer it set just like the response of a stock Marshall, but it's nice to have such flexibility when it entails no compromises.

One can debate the cost and convenience issues related to biasing, but I don't see how you can dismiss the benefits of being able to bias any flavor power tube (even two different types run simultaneously) without popping the hood and without special equipment (aside from a cheap multimeter) in about 15 seconds per tube. A trip to the tech involves hours/days without the amp, some amount of cash, and just the PITA factor of lugging an unwieldy 50+ pound object to and from the car, shop, etc. If you could change your car's oil in two minutes flat without (literally) popping the hood, crawling underneath, and getting a spot of grease on your hands and it cost you exactly $0.00, would you be interested? I would. :)

Different players have different tastes, and I'm not a fan of saying any piece of gear is objectively "the best!" If all you care about is Marshall tone, Maven Peal can deliver the goods on par with any of the names mentioned in this thread (and perhaps others overlooked). Would you like MP the *best*? Hard to say, but many Ganesha/Tuskadero owners have chimed in over time to say that their ears have never heard better. If you want stellar NMV Marshall tone at controllable volumes (i.e., down to 1 watt output) without compromises, there really is no other choice of which I'm aware. The other MP features (FX Loop, gain boosts, etc.) are just that -- features. They may or may not be of value to you, but your job as a buyer is to stack up the alternatives and find what works best for you.

Last time I checked, the purpose of the exercise was to find those tools that inspire us to make the world a better place by making great music. There are many paths toward that end, and we can fully explore those paths without the sniping, nitpicking, and accusations. Go forth and rock.

- DB

[hear and play]

Is distortion due to driving the transformer a significant source of the cranked amp sound? If yes, do the Maven Peal designs maintain the transformer contribution as you dial down the volume?

[Thames]

Hey guys,

I'm about to build a 1959SLP replica. Are you telling me that I shouldnt and this amps is crap ?

[drbob1]

I've got to say that the 1959 in all it's incarnations is one of the most basic amp flavors. I'd say go for it! Clapton, Page, Hendrix etc can't all be wrong!

[BIGGERSTAFF]

Originally posted by Thames
Hey guys,

I'm about to build a 1959SLP replica. Are you telling me that I shouldnt and this amps is crap ?


I don't think that is the point that was being made. I think Dave was stating that in terms of user friendly features(plexi tone at sane volumes, and ease of biasing, etc...), that those were desirable attributes. It doesn't take anything away from Marshalls, or any other Marshallesque amps out there, but many of them are usable only in larger venues in order to get the most out of them. If you don't crank some of them, you're not getting the goods so to speak.

[TheAmpNerd]

Originally posted by Maven Peal
An unmatched pair of NOS Mullard are at least $100 cheaper than a matched pair. With BiaSmart (which I'm assuming you don't know about) you don't need to replace the entire set. Each tube is biased individually.

Dave

Wholly Cow Bat Man!

Why Buy Mullards? When you can buy the JJ EL34Ls
for tones less.

AND

guess what?


The JJs Sound as good as the GEC KT77s.
Try finding a NOS PAIR of these for under $400.

To that I can only say....

Rawk On Dude

:dude

[Joe F]

as someone with a nice KT77 stash who is also a JJ E34L user....I find that the GEC is far superior sonically (better headroom, clarity, frequency spectrum, compression, and plain old "roar".

BUT...yes I find the JJ to be a very good tube if screend out by someone like Bob or Lord, and obviously it won't last as long as a GEC, but for the money it's a nice way to go.

[TheAmpNerd]

Originally posted by frascati
as someone with a nice KT77 stash


Care to share?

[Joe F]

sure, after the getter flash is all gone! :)

[hear and play]

Originally posted by Maven Peal
Excellent point. Transformer saturation and speaker distortion are the two contributing factors to that great cranked amp sound that the Sag Circuit does not address. That's exactly what I'm working on now! ;)

Dave

Thanks and please keep us posted.

[TheAmpNerd]

Originally posted by Maven Peal
<snippage>
(6) You have to live with and accept a TON of that Marshall hum (which costs you more during recording filtering this out)

Dave

Which is what I would like to find out about.
How do you get rid of the hum?

[908SSP]

One thing that the MP does that no body else in the industry does that I am aware of is use a toroidal power transformer. If you do some research on AC power line conditioners the ones that run upward of $500 you will see this big round transformer same thing they use in the Ganesha. You probably know more about this stuff them I do. Anyway he starts with clean AC power.

[drbob1]

I'll let Dave respond about why the hum goes away, it's considerably more technical than the toroidal transformer. There are a lot of other people who've used those, without eliminating the humm (Cruise, Morin and Egnator leap to mind).

[begin_etienne]

Originally posted by Maven Peal
I personally prefer, and am having fun, biasing each tube (from a healthy list of possible flavors) individually, directly from the back panel, without taking the amp apart, in about 30 seconds. AFAIK, no Marshall amp does that with *any* kit.

BTW, what is the street price on a new Marshall reissue these days?

Dave

Street price is 600$ (I thought it was higher too).

When you say "no Marshall amp does that with *any* kit." do you mean there is no way to ajust the bias on each tube individually with a Marshall ?

I had a kit from Kevin O'Connor installed by Mark Stephenson that does just that, I can send you pictures if you want.

Have fun,
E-

[Mark C]

Well, this is an interesting thread. I went ahead and checked out the Maven Peal web site - great idea, but I doubt I'll ever be able to afford one of their amps. I'll stick with my JTM45/bluesbreaker clone and my Flexi-50 along with the hotplate.

[mailman]

Does the Maven Peal amp use the same-type individual external valve biasing ports as THD's Flexi-50? It's a fantastic feature, and easy to use!
Sounds like a great amp, but too heavy & pricey for me. I extended myself for the Flexi, and am extremely happy with its tonal-abilities.:D

[mailman]

Thanks for the clarification!;)

[Lonely Raven]

Originally posted by Maven Peal
No.

What you're wanting to measure is the actual current flowing through the tubes. What THD has you doing is meausing the implied current running through the tubes. The accuracy of the implication is as accurate as the resistor. Are resistors typically accurate? If THD is using a good resistor, accuracy can be plus or minus 1%. If they're not, accuracy could be plus or minus 20% or more. I don't know what type of resistor they're using.

Dave

Aren't there metal film that go out to .1% accuracy?

[Ed DeGenaro]

Originally posted by Maven Peal
Yes. There are metal film resistors that go to 0.1% accuracy; I've even seen some that go to .025%. I didn't think of them because 0.1% resistors are 150x more expensive than 1% resistors. At the Flexi's street price, I doubt THD can afford to pony up for the more expensive resistors. I could be wrong, though.

Dave
Takes no time to measure 1% and hand select .1 from it. It's a 1 ohm 5 watt wire wound. Also I'd hazzard a guess that since we're buying bigger quantities it's no biggie.

[drbob1]

I'm actually happy with a Weber Bias Rite and external bias setting points if I can have them... It allows me to directly measure both current and voltage. Now all I need is a way to measure screen current separately:cool:

[AndyMarshall]

Dave,

Unfortunately you have been slightly misinformed on a few of the points that you are tossing around.

1. Wire-wound resistors are, by far, the most temperature-stable resistors available. Even with that in mind, the reason we use 5W is that there is no measurable temperature rise with that big a resistor, so temperature coefficient is not a factor.

2. Wire-wound resistors can be either inductive or non-inductive. That said, we use the standard inductive type because at 1.000 ohms, the inductance is in the 1 micro-henry range, lower than any metal film resistors used in our or anybody else's amplifiers. Remember, metal film resistors are ALL inductive because they are cut in a spiral to achieve the desired resistance. They start with a slug coated in metal film and cut (usually with a laser) into a long, very fine spiral until the resistance reaches the desired value. The spiral causes the inductance.

The inductance of our bias-measuring resistors is so low that they would constitute a 1dB drop at roughly 4.4MHz with the stock EL34s. As most guitar speakers roll off substantially at 8KHz, the resistor's induced drop off is about 9 octaves higher than any guitar speaker would let you hear, even if your ears could hear that high, which, of course, they can't.

Also, while we're on the subject of inductance in the power tube circuit, you imply that inductance is bad, but you have a TON of inductance in the primary of your output transformer, roughly in the range of 20mH to 50mH, so about 20,000 to 50,000 times the inductance of the bias resistor, which is also in series with the same power tubes. Furthermore, the wire-wound screen resistors that everyone uses have an inductance in the range of 1 milli-henry, or 1000 times the bias resistor. Mind you, this inductance, which, as you correctly stated, does increase resistance as frequency goes up, is an important factor in limiting the high-frequency damping effect of the screen supply. Non-inductive screen resistors tend to make for a rather harsh-sounding top end. So, inductance is not a bad thing for tone.

3. A 5% resistor, a 1% resistor and a 0.1% resistor are all made at the same time on the same machine. It is only in QC and marking that it is determined whether the resistor is a 100K? 5%, a 101K? 1% or a 101.6K? 0.1%. They all have the same temperature coefficient. Temperature coefficient is a factor completely independent from tolerance. The temperature coefficient is based upon the composition of the internal slug, the alloy of the film, the type of weld used to connect the lead to the film and the properties of the coating used on the resistor.

4. The "built-in milliammeters to measure the current directly" as you call them that are used in some hi-fi amplifiers are merely volt meters with series reference resistors. There is no such thing as a true milliammeter. All milliammeters are volt meters with resistors built into them. That is why they all list a series resistance in the fine print. When you buy a milliammerter to put into your amplifier, you are getting a built-in resistor of unknown quality and composition. One thing that I do guarantee, though, is that it will not like the results of a screen to cathode short. Take this from a guy who does a lot of consulting for a local test-equipment company called Fluke. They have been a client of mine for 10 years.

Keep up the good work, guys! Discussions like these are a good way to learn.

Cheers!

[drbob1]

Originally posted by Maven Peal
If you don't mind the hassle of taking out the tubes to put the Bias Rite plugs in.

But, if you don't have any other way to bias your amp, an external biasing system like Weber's is the way to go.

Dave

Nope, don't mind at all. Some amps (Marshall style with the slide out chassis) don't even bother me to take apart and access the bias adjustment from beneath. But it would be cool if more manufacturers would make the bias adjust available from outside. I now know of 3 makers who have per tube adjustments, and another larger group available from outside the amp.

[GuitarNorton]

Originally posted by drbob1
Nope, don't mind at all. Some amps (Marshall style with the slide out chassis) don't even bother me to take apart and access the bias adjustment from beneath. But it would be cool if more manufacturers would make the bias adjust available from outside. I now know of 3 makers who have per tube adjustments, and another larger group available from outside the amp.

Humm well it bothers me! and I think most players won't take the time to pull the chassis to make adjustments. I don't think alot of them, me included even know how to set the bias. I never pulled the chassis to compare hot verses cold bias setting before I had a Ganesha with external bias adustments that I could change in 30 seconds. I never did my bias adustmests, paid a tech to do them. I never even knew how to do it until I had an amp like this where it was so simple to do. You can learn how to do it from the owners manual.
First time I have ever been abe to have two different pairs of tubes in an amp, such as, EL34 KT66 KT77 5881 6CA7 6L6GC 6550 7581 and switch back and forth between them and compare the sonic differences. Then when you have decided which type of tube you prefer, you can put four of them in and listen to the differences in hot or cold bias setting between the pairs.
Just makes it so easy fpr a no tech type person to tailor the amp to your personal tone preferences.
You see it more amd more all the time, more manfuctures are moving to an external bias, and why not!!! ?

[malabarmusic]

Originally posted by AndyMarshall
Keep up the good work, guys! Discussions like these are a good way to learn.

Cheers! I couldn't agree more! Thanks so much, Andy, for joining TGP and contributing to the dialogue.

- DB

[reaiken]

Originally posted by Maven Peal
I come from the "less is more" point of view, and do not wish to permanently introduce a resistor into the cathode circuit.

Pardon me for being a bit of a smartass here, but you are quibbling about THD adding a 1 ohm 1% resistor in the cathode circuit when you add a complete regulated solid-state HV power supply and current feedback control loop into a tube amplifier? That sounds like a "more is more" approach than "less is more"! Which is more unreliable, a power transistor and a bunch of opamps/discrete circuitry or a simple resistor running nowhere near it's max rating?

Randall Aiken

[mailman]

Originally posted by GuitarNorton
... Just makes it so easy for a no tech type person to tailor the amp to your personal tone preferences.
You see it more and more all the time, more manfuctures are moving to an external bias, and why not!!! ?

I heartily agree! That's one BIG reason I purchased the Flexi. And I got all that tonal flexability, quality-built and reasonably priced.:D

[kannibul]

Originally posted by Maven Peal
Wow, for $600, I might just put up with all the side effects of a traditional power supply....

If there is a way to adjust the bias on each tube individually with a Marshall, any Marshall, I'm not aware of it.

I've seen Kevin's stuff. Thanks.

Dave

DSL 50, TSL 60. Has two tubes, and two bias control pots.

DSL 100, TSL 100, has 4 tubes, two bias control pots, for each pair.

[AndyMarshall]

Originally posted by Maven Peal
The resistance and inductance of THD's bias measuring system are in the cathode circuit which creates local negative feedback at the tube. This inductance cannot be compared to the inductance present in the plate circuit on all amps. That said, the resistance and inductance in the cathode circuit of your amps is minimal as you state.

Actually, Dave, it CAN be compared to plate circuit inductance. The DC resistance and inductance in the plate circuit also presents local negative-feedback at the tube. The more current the tube draws, the lower the plate voltage drops, eg. negative feedback, just as in the cathode circuit. Current limiting is current limiting, regardless of whether it is in the plate, the screen, the grid or the cathode. It is completely comparable, especially considering that the cathode current is merely the sum of the plate current and the screen current.

Originally posted by Maven Peal
You're correct that in theory Tolerance is completely independent from Temperature Coefficient ratings. While manufacturers can certainly select resistors to meet closer tolerances as you mentioned, a quick look at the specs for resistors shows that, as a rule, the higher Tolerance resistors tend to have higher Temperature Coefficients.

For example a 20% carbon composition resistor has a higher temperature coefficient than a 1% metal film resistor, which are certainly made on different machines. I don't believe Xicon or Allen Bradley appreciate your saying that their high end resistors have the same internal guts as their low end ones do.

This is much more than theory. It is practice. We are not comparing carbon composition resistors to metal film resistors, we are comparing different tolerances of the same type of resistor. Within any type, such as metal film, they are all the same composition, all the same type, all the same machine at the same time. This is not marketing, this is manufacturing. Allen Bradley, Vishay, KOA, all of them do the same thing. The tolerances sold have only to do with the demand. If Vishay runs a bunch of 1M resistors and they have a lot of 1.00M 0.1% resistors in stock, they will simply mark all of the run 1M 1%, even if most of them are within 0.1%. They mark them as needed for sales. I have gotten batches of 1.00 ohm 1% resistors where every one was within 0.1%, and I have gotten batches where they were all pushing the limits of the 1% tolerance. It has all to do with what they can sell at that moment.

As for the companies not appreciating my saying this, where do you think that I got this information? It all came from Allen Bradley, Dale, Tru-Ohm, KOA and the other brands I have used.

Xicon, by the way, is not a manufacturer. Xicon is the “house brand” name that Mouser applies to whatever Chinese components they decide to buy and re-sell. That said, Mouser is a GREAT supplier and buys really good stuff, as a general rule.

Originally posted by Maven Peal
While we can all agree as to how DC milliammeters work, I would hope that the better quality meter manufacturers use selected resistors to insure accurate meter readings... (or is there something about our Fluke meters that you should tell us about?).

I have never seen any amplifier with a built-in Fluke meter. Fluke meters are as good as it gets, with the highest quality, most stable components available, bar none. What I was referring to were the mechanical VU-style meters found in some amplifiers.

Your original statement implied that your amplifier is superior because it uses a milliammeter instead of a resistor and a volt meter. I was merely explaining that a milliammeter is a volt meter and a resistor.

Originally posted by Maven Peal
The real point to all of this is that when you unplug the BiaSmart cord from our amps, the measurement system is completely removed and all of the above points are moot. With THD's system, bias measurement is always "on" and a part of the tone circuit.

A 1 ohm resistor in the cathode of each tube presents no measurable or perceivable change in the performance of a vacuum tube amplifier. Seldom does one encounter an output transformer that is within 1 ohm from one to the next on the primary side. My experience has shown that a jack in the cathode circuit presents a much greater tone and reliability concern than a 1 ohm wire-wound resistor. Also, it would keep the amplifier from passing CE, UL or CSA and would make it illegal to sell in Canada or Europe. The 1/4” jack is not rated for the voltage it would see in the event of an internal short in the power tube. The components need to be rated to withstand the failure of other components, as you know.

Originally posted by Maven Peal
I come from the "less is more" point of view, and do not wish to permanently introduce a resistor into the cathode circuit. Like Hartley Peavey once said to me, "If we have to spend an entire day figuring out how to remove one resistor, it was time well spent to increase reliability."

I agree that “less is more”, but not to the point of making the amplifier inferior to reduce the parts count. I would think that the UniValve is a prime example of this. Also, I was unaware that you consider Peavey to be the pinnacle of design and an example to follow.

(No offense to Peavey. The provide a great product for those who cannot afford a hand-built amplifier.)

Cheers!

[kannibul]

Originally posted by AndyMarshall
Actually, Dave, it CAN be compared to plate circuit inductance. The DC resistance and inductance in the plate circuit also presents local negative-feedback at the tube. The more current the tube draws, the lower the plate voltage drops, eg. negative feedback, just as in the cathode circuit. Current limiting is current limiting, regardless of whether it is in the plate, the screen, the grid or the cathode. It is completely comparable, especially considering that the cathode current is merely the sum of the plate current and the screen current.



This is much more than theory. It is practice. We are not comparing carbon composition resistors to metal film resistors, we are comparing different tolerances of the same type of resistor. Within any type, such as metal film, they are all the same composition, all the same type, all the same machine at the same time. This is not marketing, this is manufacturing. Allen Bradley, Vishay, KOA, all of them do the same thing. The tolerances sold have only to do with the demand. If Vishay runs a bunch of 1M resistors and they have a lot of 1.00M 0.1% resistors in stock, they will simply mark all of the run 1M 1%, even if most of them are within 0.1%. They mark them as needed for sales. I have gotten batches of 1.00 ohm 1% resistors where every one was within 0.1%, and I have gotten batches where they were all pushing the limits of the 1% tolerance. It has all to do with what they can sell at that moment.

As for the companies not appreciating my saying this, where do you think that I got this information? It all came from Allen Bradley, Dale, Tru-Ohm, KOA and the other brands I have used.

Xicon, by the way, is not a manufacturer. Xicon is the “house brand” name that Mouser applies to whatever Chinese components they decide to buy and re-sell. That said, Mouser is a GREAT supplier and buys really good stuff, as a general rule.



I have never seen any amplifier with a built-in Fluke meter. Fluke meters are as good as it gets, with the highest quality, most stable components available, bar none. What I was referring to were the mechanical VU-style meters found in some amplifiers.

Your original statement implied that your amplifier is superior because it uses a milliammeter instead of a resistor and a volt meter. I was merely explaining that a milliammeter is a volt meter and a resistor.



A 1 ohm resistor in the cathode of each tube presents no measurable or perceivable change in the performance of a vacuum tube amplifier. Seldom does one encounter an output transformer that is within 1 ohm from one to the next on the primary side. My experience has shown that a jack in the cathode circuit presents a much greater tone and reliability concern than a 1 ohm wire-wound resistor. Also, it would keep the amplifier from passing CE, UL or CSA and would make it illegal to sell in Canada or Europe. The 1/4” jack is not rated for the voltage it would see in the event of an internal short in the power tube. The components need to be rated to withstand the failure of other components, as you know.



I agree that “less is more”, but not to the point of making the amplifier inferior to reduce the parts count. I would think that the UniValve is a prime example of this. Also, I was unaware that you consider Peavey to be the pinnacle of design and an example to follow.

Cheers!

:dude

[GuitarNorton]

That's it! I'm done posting! I'm just playing! My tone quest is over anyway it doesn't matter to me anymore, I'm happy with my Ganesha! see ya all!!

[TheAmpNerd]

Originally posted by AndyMarshall
Xicon, by the way, is not a manufacturer. Xicon is the “house brand” name that Mouser applies to whatever Chinese components they decide to buy and re-sell.

No actually Xicon is not a part of Mouser.
They are their own company and supply many other firms. They also supply more than just
chinese components.

[/B] Also, I was unaware that you consider Peavey to be the pinnacle of design and an example to follow.
(No offense to Peavey. The provide a great product for those who cannot afford a hand-built amplifier.)

Cheers! [/B]

I was un aware that "anybody" thought Peavey was the
pinnacle of design, but thanks for enlightening me.

BTW - Your Uni-, Bi- valve amps are very fun. Thank
you for the adventure. : )

[TheAmpNerd]

Originally posted by AndyMarshall
The inductance of our bias-measuring resistors is so low that they would constitute a 1dB drop at roughly 4.4MHz with the stock EL34s.

Andy,

Alright, that does it. I knew something was going
on in your amps and in amp that I service and install these resistors into as well.

I sensed that 1 db; but I thought it was a tad higher at
4.8 MHz, but then I could be wrong.

Anyway thanks for confirming what I already knew.

Keep up the good work too. : )

[AndyMarshall]

Originally posted by TheAmpNerd
No actually Xicon is not a part of Mouser.
They are their own company and supply many other firms. They also supply more than just chinese components.

Actually, Xicon is, in fact, a brand name owned by Mouser, which is, in turn, owned by TTI, Inc. Look up Mouser’s address on their website: 1000 North Main Street, Mansfield, TX.

Now look up Xicon’s website: www.xicon-passive.com. They state “Our facilities are centrally located in Dallas/Ft.Worth…” Check the online phone listings on DexOnline.com for Dallas, and there is no listing. Change the city to Mansfield, TX and you get “XICON 1000 N MAIN ST, MANSFIELD, TX”.

They do try to hide this fact, though.

[AndyMarshall]

Originally posted by TheAmpNerd
I sensed that 1 db; but I thought it was a tad higher at
4.8 MHz, but then I could be wrong.

You've got far better tweeters than I!

Thanks for the kind words.

[Mark C]

Whew, my head is spinning after reading all of this!:D Thanks for checking in here Andy, I did learn a few things, even though a lot when in one ear and out the other. Enjoying my Flexi with the bias test points. Whether they affect the tone of the amp - I could care less, since the amp sounds great and they are certainly easy to use. That said, I don't see what the big deal is about biasing a Marshall. I'm of Polish descent, and I can do it!;) (I guess I should add the standard warning to anyone reading that if you are clueless, an amp does contain lethal voltages that can kill you if you don't know what to do, but I think almost anyone can learn to safely bias a simple tube amp).

[guitrr]

Yes, well back to the original question...

I have a Germino Masonette that I gig with several times a month. As someone here pointed out, it really dials an Allman Bros type sound, which is exactly what I was looking for, that thick creamy sort of tone that Duane, Dickey, Warren, and others are known for. Also, I have been able to get excellent examples of many type tones with a high quality overdrive and/or distortion pedal in front of the amp. On only one occasion have I had annoying hum, and I write that off as an isolated incident, probably due to something at the venue.

At 25 watts, the Masonette is great at small clubs and medium sized halls, which is where the majority of us are playing. I LOVE mine, and highly recommend it, and all of Greg's line.

I have played a THD, and liked it, but not enough to buy one. Fine amp, it just didn't pull my trigger. I' ve not had the chance to play an Aiken, Roccaforte, or Maven Peal, although I've heard artists who do, and they sound terrific, all of them particulary Cesar Rosas from Los Lobos (Roccaforte), and Warren Haynes, from the Allmans, Gov't Mule, etc. (Maven Peal). The sag circuit of the MP is very intriguing to me, and I hope to experience one of Dave's amps someday.

Hope this helps.

Kane

[Jackie Treehorn]

Come on people, just grow a pair and bias with the transformer shunt method! That's what I do...no extra resistors, no extra tools needed. :p

Better yet, adjust the bias so the amp sounds good and check that the plates aren't glowing. What more do you want?

I don't really have a hum problem with my amps...it's more hiss than hum. I used Randall's schematic for DC heaters in my Marshall clone and it works great!

So Dave, is the reduced wattage in your amps from lowering the voltage? What's the story on your wattage control?

[John Phillips]

Originally posted by Jackie Treehorn
Come on people, just grow a pair and bias with the transformer shunt method! That's what I do...no extra resistors, no extra tools needed. :p
Just FWIW, the most accurate way of measuring tube plate current is to measure the voltage drop across the OT primary, having also measured (with the amp off) the DC resistance of the winding - do each side separately; as Andy says, they are rarely exactly matched. The current is the voltage divided by the resistance. It's also somewhat safer than the transformer-shunt method since if you slip with the meter probes, the result isn't a short through the meter.

The transformer-shunt method alters the circuit while you're testing (by bypassing the primary resistance), and the cathode-current method includes the screen current. Both increase the apparent plate current, which in some ways is a good thing as it makes the dissipation setting more conservative.

If you're going to do either, arguing about whether a 1% resistor is accurate enough is totally pointless... it is, period. Nothing else in the amp is anything like that tolerance anyway.

Better yet, adjust the bias so the amp sounds good and check that the plates aren't glowing. What more do you want?
I'm fairly inclined to agree with this... :)


BTW, welcome Andy! Are you here to keep an eye on Ed? ;)

[AndyMarshall]

John,

Nope, Ed is pretty much self-policing, but he did ask me to deal with Maven Peal's misinformation, which is why I waded in.

I agree with you in terms of accuracy, but I have to consider safety as well, which is why we went with the cathode resistor method. (Passing CE, CSA and C-Tic is essential for us.) I generally recommend that people stay far away from B+.

I, personally, have a minor but permanent injury from a small B+ mishap about 4 years ago. Basically, I was poking around in a live amp with a probe which was not quite as well insulated as I has thought. The shock was strong enough to rip some infraspinatus muscles off of my ribcage under the scapula, taking pieces of bone with it. Though the muscles have healed and partly re-attached themselves, there are bone shards in the infraspinatus muscle for life, making it hard to lift heavy things with my right arm. Oh, and it hurt a lot. And this, with a little UniValve!

Our recommended current settings are calculated to include the screen current as well, of course.

How are the Highlands this time of year? None of those damn biting flies, I wager.

[TheAmpNerd]

Originally posted by AndyMarshall
Actually, Xicon is, in fact, a brand name owned by Mouser, which is, in turn, owned by TTI, Inc. Look up Mouser’s address on their website: 1000 North Main Street, Mansfield, TX.

Now look up Xicon’s website: www.xicon-passive.com. They state “Our facilities are centrally located in Dallas/Ft.Worth…” Check the online phone listings on DexOnline.com for Dallas, and there is no listing. Change the city to Mansfield, TX and you get “XICON 1000 N MAIN ST, MANSFIELD, TX”.

They do try to hide this fact, though.

Hey Andy,

I checked, spoke to my Xicon rep directly. I didn't think they were owned by Mouser and they aren't.

HOWEVER

They are both owned by TTI (a holding company in
Ft. Worth, TX). Xicon has been around since 1978
and they are Master Distributors for the Mfgs they
liscense/work with.

[AndyMarshall]

Both owned by the same company and located in the same building as opposed to one owning the other... Splitting hairs, but I do stand corrected. Also, Mouser has been around since 1964. Thanks for the data! Keeping things accurate and factual is very important.

Cheers!

[reaiken]

FWIW, all our amps use a 1 ohm 1% 3W or 5W cathode resistor connected to the rear panel bias test jacks for the reasons Andy stated.

Randall Aiken

[AndyMarshall]

I would be fine with 3W or even wire-wound 2W, but at 1%, I find that the 5W are the least expensive in our quantities. Go figure!

[begin_etienne]

Originally posted by Maven Peal
Wow, for $600, I might just put up with all the side effects of a traditional power supply....


Couple tweaks and a new OT will revive any RI and make it very acceptable to a majority of guitarists. But hey maybe it is not suitable for the market you are targeting.

Originally posted by Maven Peal
If there is a way to adjust the bias on each tube individually with a Marshall, any Marshall, I'm not aware of it.


Here's my bias panel:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/begin_etienne/bias.jpg

Works great !

Good luck with your business,
E-

[Alex]

Originally posted by begin_etienne
Couple tweaks and a new OT will revive any RI and make it very acceptable to a majority of guitarists. But hey maybe it is not suitable for the market you are targeting.



Here's my bias panel:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/begin_etienne/bias.jpg

Works great !

Good luck with your business,
E-

I can also ajust the bias individually on my 1987x.

Now you are aware of 2 ;)

[Jackie Treehorn]

Right on, Mr. Phillips. If you're going to be a stickler on bias, you really have to have the plate voltage, too, which I don't think is accessible on these amps without pulling the chassis anyway. It's the maximum dissipation figure that's really important. As long as you know the hottest, safe bias point, you can adjust down to taste. I think that's the most effective way to set the bias from an "artistic" standpoint to achieve the best tone and feel for the player. Just telling someone, "bias to 35ma" doesn't provide the player with any additional options for fine tuning the amp.

In regards to individual biasing of power tubes, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that lead the power tubes to distort at different times (in an amp capable of hitting the power tubes hard)? If the phase inverter outputs 30 volts AC to two power tubes, one biased with -30 volts and one biased at -34 volts, wouldn't the -30 volt tube clip, or should I say go non-linear, first?

Regarding the Maven Peal, I remember reading a Maven Peal post in the other forum, "With the plexi-style signal path, the Ganesha is inherently a low gain amp. Low gain amps allow the organic flavor of the tube to shine through. Gain colors (or smothers) the tube's organic flavor. This is the main reason why I recommend using a pedal to add gain and have not made a high gain amp, yet. Pedals give you way more flexibility than a high gain amp with 100 channels." Which makes me wonder about the usefulness of reducing the wattage in the Maven Peal amps. If I were to go back to using pedals for distortion, why would I mind a regular old 100 watt super lead? Also, whether the output tubes in a plexi style amp distort at all (I personally don't think so) is a point of debate, so I wouldn't think reducing the wattage of the amp would be much more effective in the Marshall than a post phase inverter master. If Maven Peal did an amp with some gain, no pedals required, like the Trainwreck Express which distorts the output tubes first, then I'd be really interested in hearing the advantages of their technology.

Interesting thread!

[AndyMarshall]

Originally posted by Maven Peal
As for negative feedback, I respectfully disagree. In a pentode or beam tetrode, the voltage on the plate has several orders of magnitude less effect on the plate current as compared to the voltage on the cathode. Now if you are talking triodes, I agree with you.

Dave, correct, the voltage on the plates has several orders of magnitude less effect on the plate current as compared to the voltage on the cathode, but the inductance in the plate circuit is many more orders of magnitude higher than the inductance in the cathode.

Originally posted by Maven Peal
Thank you again for sharing your expertise as we are currently in the process of testing for CE listing on the Ganesha and Tuskadaro. I may just have to change a thing or two if we want to pursue CE listing (though I'd sure prefer not to).

Who have you contracted for the CE testing? Do you sell enough amplfiers overseas to justify the expense of a CE mark? It is a serious expense which you are unlikely to ever recoup. You don't technically need it if you are selling direct to customers in EU countries from the US or of they buy from US dealers, as the sale is technicall taking place in the US. You need the mark only if distributors and/or retailers in EU countries will be selling your products. I would recommend, from a business standpoint, that you just stick with selling direct from the US to EU customers. Oh, and don't ship with a power cord, as you cannot purchase cords here which pass the current CE directive on maximum cadmium content in PVC. You can be prosecuted for even sending them to end customers in EU countries. Also, in 2006, Japan is adopting the CE mark as well.

[TheAmpNerd]

[i]Thanks for the data! Keeping things accurate and factual is very important. Cheers! [/B]

Ain't it great being a nerd!

Doesn't matter what it is, let the truth be told!

[TheAmpNerd]

Wow,

And here I thought I was all F***ed up.

NOT!


Can you guess what the edit was????

[guitrr]

[/B]Who have you contracted for the CE testing? Do you sell enough amplfiers overseas to justify the expense of a CE mark? It is a serious expense which you are unlikely to ever recoup. You don't technically need it if you are selling direct to customers in EU countries from the US or of they buy from US dealers, as the sale is technicall taking place in the US. You need the mark only if distributors and/or retailers in EU countries will be selling your products. I would recommend, from a business standpoint, that you just stick with selling direct from the US to EU customers. Oh, and don't ship with a power cord, as you cannot purchase cords here which pass the current CE directive on maximum cadmium content in PVC. You can be prosecuted for even sending them to end customers in EU countries. Also, in 2006, Japan is adopting the CE mark as well. [/B]

This is interesting. I'm in the middle of a book about the EU, and one of the points they bring out is that American Companies ignore, or don't take seriously, the EU at their own peril, as several firms have learned. And EU beaurecrats tend to react very unfavorably to percieved American interference in what they view as their internal affairs. They do seem to regulate to the nth degree. Not like here in the good ol' USA, right? Uh, yea.

Kane

[AndyMarshall]

The safety and recycling standards in the EU are quite logical and make perfect sense to me. It does protect consumers and is very forward-looking. For instance, if you sell a piece of equipment in the EU, when the consumer is though with it, the manufacturer must take it back, for free, and recycle it using approved methods. This keeps people from just dumping gear that they cannot afford to recycle or dispose of correctly.

I'm not a huge fan of government regulation, but I think it is a bit silly that in the US, you can legally sell toasters as bath toys. You'll get sued, but you are not breaking any laws.

CE marking is expensive for small companies, and does keep many small companies from being able to sell in Europe, but it does make for high standards and good safety practices. In other words, it's a double-edge-sword.

[Old Fuzzface]

Much as many in the UK like to bash the EU for taking over the government of our country, it is undeniable that improvements in electrical safety regs (many originating in the UK as British Standards) have reduced domestic accidents significantly.

I still remember being completely amazed that US wiring regs allowed standard outlets in bathrooms - something that has been illegal in the UK since before I was born.

[BIGGERSTAFF]

Originally posted by Old Fuzzface
Much as many in the UK like to bash the EU for taking over the government of our country, it is undeniable that improvements in electrical safety regs (many originating in the UK as British Standards) have reduced domestic accidents significantly.

I still remember being completely amazed that US wiring regs allowed standard outlets in bathrooms - something that has been illegal in the UK since before I was born.

If you don't have outlets in the bathroom, where are you going to plug in the toaster?:cool:

This has been a very informative thread. I like getting all the different perspectives from folks whose products I admire.


Rog

[mailman]

This has been a great thread! I've put my electronics thinking cap on, but it's a tad snug!:rolleyes:
I, like many others, appreciate the wealth of pertinent amp info here. A lot of the discussion has sailed far above my feeble electronic-mindless head, but I've managed to grasp quite a few poignant (sp.?) concepts. Many thanks! ----Glenn A.

[kannibul]

Wow, this thread got quiet...

[dirtyguitar]

So,...Andy and Dave. Why not settle this like men! If each of you will agree to send me a sample amplifer, I will spend some time with them, record samples with identical settings and equipment of the same passages and then;

1) Post my findings and the opinions of those in my studio during the experiment,

2) Provide the recorded samples to whosoever would like to host them,

3) Return the amplifiers at my expense

4) Purchase the one I prefer at a pre-agreed upon price IF and only IF that amplifier delivers what I am looking for, which I laid out in the original post.

I would invite a few other forumites in the Chicago area to bring guitars and we could have a shootout --Chicago style!


So what do you say?

[jezzzz2003]

[quote=Maven Peal]Well, Marshalls do present a few problems:

(1) The only volume Marshalls sound great at is blasting (IMO), which gets old, not only for you but everyone else, as well as eventually causing hearing loss, not only for you but everyone else

(2) You have to pay your tech has to bias the tubes every time you need a new one (unless you want to--or even know how to--open the chassis and expose yourself to high voltages)

(3) Your tech is limited to biasing the tubes as a group instead of biasing each tube individually, which means you have to buy expensive matched pairs

(4) Your stuck using one type of tube (whether EL34s or 6550s--either way you're stuck)

Im extremely happy with my Marshall and have tried everything new and old that I thought might be able to rival my plexi....
Nothing has...

All my faves including Priest, Maiden, Beck, Moore... all the tone gods are still playing Marshalls. theres a good reason for this.
Just ask Yngwie.

[dirtyguitar]

If Yngwe is a "tone God",...I missed the boat. :Spank