Saving the Environment ... Green Living !!!

[BobboVisMe]

Recently I have become much more aware of the human race's impact on the planet and I've been trying to live a " greener " lifestyle ... Do any TGP'ers here use green products or strive to keep the planet cleaner and more toxin free for future generations ??? Let's discuss being " GREEN " !!! :wave


http://www.easypack.net/media/image/ep-greenstamp-medium.jpg

Here is a cool environmental chat forum I found to discuss green living ...

http://www.envirocitizen.org/forums/

[michael.e]

TGP has a strict "no religion" policy here.

[RonBGR]

TGP has a strict "no religion" policy here.


:roll

[Big Boss Man]

I find that a lot of "green" products are really just some marketing gimmick. They are a way of making people feel good about continuing their consumeristic lifestyle which is inherently un-green.

[stratman34]

Conserve electrons. Only post when absolutely necesessary. Like when someone is wrong about something, or there is a opportunity for LOL CATZ.

[Luke]

I'm vegetarian for 14 years and work one mile from home, which is heated by natural gas.

[brlfq]

Recently I have become much more aware of the human race's impact on the planet and I've been trying to live a " greener " lifestyle ... Do any TGP'ers here use green products or strive to keep the planet cleaner and more toxin free for future generations ??? Let's discuss being " GREEN " !!! :wave



I don't use any "green" products that I know of. What would be a green product? I'm trying to use less gas but it's mainly because it's price is going up again.

What green products do you use?

[cvansickle]

I have found myself doing more "green" things.

All plastic and glass containers go into the recycle bin now, not just the drink bottles. The mouthwash and and similar bottles get recycled now too.

I stopped buying bottled water. I now have a refrigerator with filtered water in the door. I bought a stainless steel "urban canteen" and I fill that throughout the day instead of using plastic bottles.

When I must print memos and handouts at the office, I print everything double-sided.

I haven't gotten to the point of buying only "green" products yet, but I think everybody can just give it a little more effort than they have been, like I've done, and it will make a big difference. I think it's painless to me, but it still helps.

[Bluedawg]

I'm vegetarian for 14 years and work one mile from home, which is heated by natural gas.


I've heard that a veg diet and walking can cause an excess of natural gas.


:knitting

[pickaguitar]

My son and I recycle!

Also have some of the energy saving light bulbs.

[oakfloor]

TGP has a strict "no religion" policy here.
Yes, earth worship is the next door on the left.

[GovernorSilver]

Recently I have become much more aware of the human race's impact on the planet and I've been trying to live a " greener " lifestyle ... Do any TGP'ers here use green products or strive to keep the planet cleaner and more toxin free for future generations ???

Sure, but I'll talk more if you post more.

[DGDGBD]

A noble cause, but why bother with 2012 right around the corner?

[BobboVisMe]

TGP has a strict "no religion" policy here.


Religion ??? I'm talking about not polluting the environment , carbon footprint , keeping dangerous chemicals out of our food supply , etc etc etc :confused:

A noble cause, but why bother with 2012 right around the corner?

Do you live by the Mayan calander ??? :facepalm

[Midnight Lady]

I'm kind of shocked hanging out here in Cali that there are not major recycling outlets everywhere. It drives me crazy to have to throw away recyclable items as I have been using recycling bins in Canada for more than ten years.

[michael.e]

You are polluting the environment right now by ditzing around here on TGP!


Yes, it is a religion.


:knitting

[BobboVisMe]

I don't use any "green" products that I know of. What would be a green product? I'm trying to use less gas but it's mainly because it's price is going up again.

What green products do you use?


A good example of a green product would be corn polymer garbage bags !!! They decompose in less than a year in a landfill instead of the hundreds of years it takes plastics to break down ...

[BobboVisMe]

I find that a lot of "green" products are really just some marketing gimmick. They are a way of making people feel good about continuing their consumeristic lifestyle which is inherently un-green.


Yes , There are lots of so called green products !!! Take a look at the website below ... Would you consider these REAL green products ??? Some of them seem a bit far fetched to be considered green !!!


http://www.envirocitizen.org/

[MudPies]

You are polluting the environment right now by ditzing around here on TGP!


Yes, it is a religion.


:knitting

It seems to be if you talk to those who hate Mother Earth and the humans of our Future.

(partly kidding)

[Guitar55]

- Stopped using paper plates
- Stopped using plastic cups
- Recycle everything possible
- Started using CFL bulbs (although the mercury content makes them a bit questionable
- Trying to get my family to turn out lights when they leave the room!!

[Big Boss Man]

A good example of a green product would be corn polymer garbage bags !!! They decompose in less than a year in a landfill instead of the hundreds of years it takes plastics to break down ...

Or may be focus on a lifestyle that does not involve sending bags full of garbage to a landfill? This is exactly what I meant when I said many green products "are a way of making people feel good about continuing their consumeristic lifestyle which is inherently un-green."

[jaydub69]

TGP has a strict "no religion" policy here.
:roll
I've heard that a veg diet and walking can cause an excess of natural gas
Yes, earth worship is the next door on the left.
You are polluting the environment right now by ditzing around here on TGP! Yes, it is a religion.

Thanks for a great topic. I am always grateful that there are others who realize how are living habits affect one another. I'm also sorry that there are those that attempt to derail and belittle your interests. It's more than clear from your OP that you were not equating recycling and "green products" with worship of any kind. I don't know what leads people to be so mean to one another.

For me, I am glad there are environmental regulations. We proved that unregulated business and machinery was negatively affecting our air and water supply. It takes only a trip to many other areas of the world in which conservation laws have not been enacted or enforced to the same extent as the US, to see how cultural impact has affected the environment. Both China and Mexico (Mexico City) are two obvious places in which the air quality is such that citizens often wear masks to combat pollutants. Where as in Scandinavia, the environment reflects the forerunning of "environmentally" technological solutions.

There are a great many resources on the internet to learn about reducing our impact on the environment in order to create a healthier and more economically sustaining future.

And for my contribution to your question. Reducing the amount of meat one consumes, is the single greatest contribution to a significantly reduced carbon footprint. I eat a largely vegetarian diet and recycle. I also try not to use any unnecessary chemicals. As for those "Green Products", many are just marketing hype. Choose wisely.

Good Luck,
-john

[Traintrack]

There are a great many resources on the internet to learn about reducing our impact on the environment in order to create a healthier and more economically sustaining future.



http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_G-RMunMK1XE/R_0zhRi47fI/AAAAAAAAAKI/4JDPV3OqiVY/s320/puke.jpg

[Thinsocks]

I've certainly tried to be a little more Green in the last few years. I have two recycled plastic shopping bags that I've been using for the last 3 years now. No more paper or plastic shopping bags each time I come back from the grocery store. I don't buy bottled water anymore either. I sort my trash and recycle what I can. Changed the lightbulbs, etc. Mostly little things, but it's a start. And I don't eat meat, that's looking to be a pretty green thing to do these days.

[DGDGBD]

I collect guitars, amplifiers and various accessories that feature obsolete mid-20th century technology, requiring a significant carbon footprint and host of hazardous/toxic materials to produce. But...I recycle my plastic bottles and drive a prius. Hey, its like ordering a diet coke with your king sized porterhouse steak.

[jaydub69]

I collect guitars, amplifiers and various accessories that feature obsolete mid-20th century technology, requiring a significant carbon footprint and host of hazardous/toxic materials to produce. But...I recycle my plastic bottles and drive a prius. Hey, its like ordering a diet coke with your king sized porterhouse steak.

Dude, I'm with you. I work doing home remodeling. For example I'll spill gasoline from the air compressor, throw out unusable building materials, use hornet sprays when on a roof and then come home and put a receipt for paint thinner in the paper recycling.

It's the effort. I think it adds up. And the solution increases the more others contribute.

-john

[fretnot]

I believe in a greener way of living if possible. I recycle, use low energy bulbs throughout my house, only buy energy star appliances, wash dishes by hand, print on both sides of paper, use sustainable flooring in my home, organic foods and cleaners, etc. I'm not perfect, but I do what I can. :)

[phoenix 7]

I'm also sorry that there are those that attempt to derail and belittle your interests. It's more than clear from your OP that you were not equating recycling and "green products" with worship of any kind. I don't know what leads people to be so mean to one another.

True. If someone doesn't care about the environment, that's their own choice. But why belittle and ridicule people who do? Why bother even posting on a thread about caring for the environment if you don't care about the environment? In general, I think people who don't give a crap like to dump on people who do. It makes them feel a little better about themselves and the fact that they don't care.

[shallbe]

I try to keep as much carbon off my feet so I don't have any carbon footprints.

Seriously, I have been recycling for many, many years---long before it was cool or Al Gore was suddenly worth $100,000,000. When you live aong the coast and care about the environment, you typically take care of it. I have adopted a mile of beach I keep clean. I don't buy junk like throw away plates and cups because it is lazy and wasteful.

CO2 is not a concern, though. That whole theory is really wrong, to anyone that has actually had a greenhouse or paid attention to things like the weather history, the sun, temps, storms, etc. "Green" has now become BRANDING, and branding is ALWAYS tied to money.

[fazendeiro]

I find that a lot of "green" products are really just some marketing gimmick. They are a way of making people feel good about continuing their consumeristic lifestyle which is inherently un-green.

My view also.
Use these products and you can sit around and pat yourself on the back because you're singlehandedly SAVING THE PLANET. Just by buying something!

[hcole]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_G-RMunMK1XE/R_0zhRi47fI/AAAAAAAAAKI/4JDPV3OqiVY/s320/puke.jpg

Do you care to expound about what you find offensive or wrong about the thought of trying to reduce one's environmental impact?

[ACfixer]

I look at it this way, I get so much "green" BS shoved down my throat that I don't have a choice. I think I'll burn a pile of car batteries this weekend.

I think 99% of it is horsecrap marketing.

[BobboVisMe]

Or may be focus on a lifestyle that does not involve sending bags full of garbage to a landfill? This is exactly what I meant when I said many green products "are a way of making people feel good about continuing their consumeristic lifestyle which is inherently un-green."


I don't live in an area where I can compost all my garbage so I have no better or greener option than the corn polymer bags , Unless you have a better suggestion for getting rid of my garbage ?

[stratman34]

Do you care to expound about what you find offensive or wrong about the thought of trying to reduce one's environmental impact?

I believe the reference was to the idea of using the internet as a reliable resource to learn about that stuff...

[pickaguitar]

I look at it this way, I get so much "green" BS shoved down my throat that I don't have a choice. I think I'll burn a pile of car batteries this weekend.

I think 99% of it is horsecrap marketing.
It doesn't have to be a black/white issue subscribing to something or some campaign somewhere you might have heard/seen.

To me it's as simple as caring about the place you, your family and friends live.

[sahhas]

a few yrs ago when i built my first solid rosewood neck, and bought the plank of wood, i felt a bit guilty knowing it came from the rain forest and all, a friend of mine said, don't worry, they probably would have cut that down anyway (and he's more of an environmentalist than I!).

at times i do think about it, i try to recycle.

I WISH AMERICAN AUTOMOBILE MANUFACTURING WOULD SWITCH TO ELECTRIC...our dependence on foreign oil and the $$ involved is sickening to me (see the movie "who killed the electric car"-a very good movie!), the sad thing is: in this issue, no one cares about environment or what is good for future, it's all about big money!!

on-small, guitar related side-i do think about future of woods that will be available, and cost, etc. i mean there is already talk about certain woods are becoming very scarce, etc....i've been thinking of building a guitar out of plywood to see what it really sounds like, since plywood is engineered product made from waste, etc....but time constraints and all...the sad thing is, i think we have 60+ yrs of this "tonewoods, have to use this or that" ingrained in our subconscious...oh well...

the funny thing i remember sitting in jr high science class & our teacher said that fossil fuels have probably 100 yrs left, that we need to start moving towards new things, and here we are 30+ yrs past that, and we've done nothing....sort of sad, i think....oh well....s---
www.myspace.com/scotthansen

[Jazz2Punk]

I was discussing with a friend of mine how most major changes in the world are actually ushered in by a small percentage of the population. Many of us would like to see more sustainable living options and money talks. As the demand grows so will the available options.

The people who do not give a crap or refuse to see the impact our current way of living is having on our environment will benefit despite their shortsightedness.

[gregc]

Recently, OK, well not SO recently, I came to the realization that it's all BS! I ripped all the 'green stickers' off my windows, bumpers, etc.......... I wish I could get all my $ back from the orgs that I donated to. They ripped me off, IMO.

[BobboVisMe]

I live in NJ and we have the most Superfund toxic waste cleanup sites than anywhere ... Pretty soon you wont be able to drink the water !!!

[amigo30]

We do what we can at our household.

We recycle everything, and have relatively little trash at the end of the week.

We try to buy for quality rather than cheap price, with the idea that we will hold onto things longer without disposing of them.

We've got low power-consumption bulbs in every spot in the house except one. (driveway security lights. The neighbors are driveway people..they NEVER go in their house) I've got a few 300w bulbs shining on that trouble-spot, but even those are motion-activated.

We also use filtered water and canteens rather than plastic bottles. My wife brings her own grocery bags to the store. I've re-sealed all of our windows. We try not to run the dishwasher or do laundry without a full load. We put in a very energy efficient water-heater the last time it needed to be replaced, and are about convert to low-flow toilets.

We do what we can. Unfortunately, I have a long-commute, and there's not much I can do about that until the housing market picks up.

Generally, we believe that rampant consumerism is unnecessary and irresponsible. We still have our day to day lives to lead, and we can't be complete zealots about it, but we do believe that being responsible in the context of the big picture is an important part of being a citizen of this planet.

Climate change or not, it's just good sense not to waste things and leave a mess.

[mdog114]

TGP has a strict "no religion" policy here.

:bumpbump

[mdog114]

I live in NJ and we have the most Superfund toxic waste cleanup sites than anywhere ... Pretty soon you wont be able to drink the water !!!

I have an office in NJ and the water that comes out of the tap is some of the best water I've ever tasted.

[Jazz2Punk]

TGP has a strict "no religion" policy here.

Gear is my religion! :dude

[ACfixer]

Recently, OK, well not SO recently, I came to the realization that it's all BS! I ripped all the 'green stickers' off my windows, bumpers, etc.......... I wish I could get all my $ back from the orgs that I donated to. They ripped me off, IMO.

My feelings exactly. I live my life in a clean and responsible fashion but the whole green thing is a scam IMO. Corn syrup bags? You've got to be kidding me. How about telling huge companies to cut back on the ridiculous amount of packaging with every product? My whole recycle bin is filled every week with packaging and JUNK MAIL I obviously didn't need, and I live alone. It's just STUPID. It's insanity that I have to pay to haul away a huge barrel of stuff every week, I have far more recyclable stuff in my bins than actual garbage.

I can't go on without violating the TGP rules but I'll end with this. Anybody that was truly "green" and had half a brain would be lobbying for more nuclear energy plants. They are far and away the cleanest, cheapest, and safest form of energy.

[BobboVisMe]

Anyone watch Living with Ed ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88Yz6_9mb_E

[arthur rotfeld]

Reuse as much as we can (cardboard boxes, plastic containers, paper, etc.)
No newspapers.
We've been bringing our own bags to the market for well over a year.
Local food.
Filter our own water.
Living in a Co-op building.

Things like that....

[Darkburst]

Climate change or not, it's just good sense not to waste things and leave a mess.

That pretty much sums up how I feel about the issue.

[BobboVisMe]

My feelings exactly. I live my life in a clean and responsible fashion but the whole green thing is a scam IMO. Corn syrup bags? You've got to be kidding me. How about telling huge companies to cut back on the ridiculous amount of packaging with every product? My whole recycle bin is filled every week with packaging and JUNK MAIL I obviously didn't need, and I live alone. It's just STUPID. It's insanity that I have to pay to haul away a huge barrel of stuff every week, I have far more recyclable stuff in my bins than actual garbage.

I can't go on without violating the TGP rules but I'll end with this. Anybody that was truly "green" and had half a brain would be lobbying for more nuclear energy plants. They are far and away the cleanest, cheapest, and safest form of energy.



It sure is easy to just put it on the big companies ehhh ... Everyone needs to start do their part ... I'm not saying you have to buy green products but it might help a bit to live a cleaner lifestyle ...

[michael.e]

That pretty much sums up how I feel about the issue.


Myself as well. Be responsible and conciencious about what you are doing with regard to consumption.

[Greggy]

The human impact on the environment is so utterly complex that we have very little idea what we are talking about. That is another way of saying that ignorance is the rule as opposed to the exception. Hence, basing policy on the current state of knowledge is basing policy on ignorance and perhaps other motivations that shall go unspoken by myself.

[Structo]

In before deletion

[Greggy]

Pssst...Greggy

(we get that you could care less)

Not at all. I simply admit my ignorance and would like to see everyone involved in the debate exercise an appropriate level of humility. A corollary is this: any person that advocates for any material change in the manner of traditional interactions between humankind and the environment shall carry the burden of proof (a steep burden) to establish the efficacy of such a material change. Until then, tradition is the best guide to how we should live and consume resources in the pursuit of self interest and relative happiness. Traditions themselves are the spawn of millenia of evolutionary adjustments and processes by which our ancestors learned how to optimize the balance between humans and all that is not directly human.

But to pickaguitar, I do care, very much so.:aok

[pickaguitar]

lol :)
Truth is that I got you mixed up with poster 'gregc' on page 3... (gregc/greggy)

[Greggy]

lol :)
Truth is that I got you mixed up with poster 'gregc' on page 3...

Ha, lol. I'm sure I am more sanctimonious than gregc. :bumpbump

[loudboy]

The human impact on the environment is so utterly complex that we have very little idea what we are talking about. That is another way of saying that ignorance is the rule as opposed to the exception. Hence, basing policy on the current state of knowledge is basing policy on ignorance and perhaps other motivations that shall go unspoken by myself.

So you feel we should do nothing?

Look at the way things were in the US in the 50s-60s, before environmental regulations were in place. Not good.

Since then, the air/water is cleaner, in general. And fortunately, there are still some laws left as regards usage of the remaining natural resources.

In countries w/o such regulation, things are pretty grim and getting worse.

It doesn't take much intelligence or research to figure out that you shouldn't crap where you eat...

[phoenix 7]

Not at all. I simply admit my ignorance and would like to see everyone involved in the debate exercise an appropriate level of humility. A corollary is this: any person that advocates for any material change in the manner of traditional interactions between humankind and the environment shall carry the burden of proof (a steep burden) to establish the efficacy of such a material change. Until then, tradition is the best guide to how we should live and consume resources in the pursuit of self interest and relative happiness. Traditions themselves are the spawn of millenia of evolutionary adjustments and processes by which our ancestors learned how to optimize the balance between humans and all that is not directly human.

If we lived according to the "traditions" that "optimized" humans' relationship with the earth for "millennia," we would have virtually no environmental problems. There's nothing "traditional" about factories, trucks and cars belching pollution into the air. And there's nothing "traditional" about making things out of plastics, which have turned large parts of the Pacific Ocean into a floating garbage dump. And there's nothing "traditional" about over-fishing the seas until we're actually at risk of the fish running out. There's nothing "traditional" about strip-mining, which turns mountains into dead piles of mud. Etc.

[loudboy]

If we lived according to the "traditions" that "optimized" humans' relationship with the earth for "millennia," we would have virtually no environmental problems. There's nothing "traditional" about factories, trucks and cars belching CO2 into the air. And there's nothing "traditional" about making things out of plastics, which have turned large parts of the Pacific Ocean into a floating garbage dump. And there's nothing "traditional" about over-fishing the seas until we're actually at risk of the fish running out. There's nothing "traditional" about strip-mining, which turns mountains into piles of mud. Etc.

Yup - the discovery of fossil fuels 150 years ago changed the rules completely.

[EXPcustom]

My friend increases his CO2 output and his weed plants get bigger, is this bad for the enviroment because he technically is increasing his carbon footprint?

edit: looking for smilies to show sarcasm, I think the green movement is a big scam like the mercury filled CFL bulbs.

[Zelmo]

Walk lightly; leave no trace.


Or, at least have the mindset that endeavors to do so.

[Bluedawg]

Yup - the discovery of fossil fuels 150 years ago changed the rules completely.


They allowed us to clean all of the horse poop off the streets.

Yin meet yang ...


:YinYang

[GovernorSilver]

If we lived according to the "traditions" that "optimized" humans' relationship with the earth for "millennia," we would have virtually no environmental problems. There's nothing "traditional" about factories, trucks and cars belching pollution into the air. And there's nothing "traditional" about making things out of plastics, which have turned large parts of the Pacific Ocean into a floating garbage dump. And there's nothing "traditional" about over-fishing the seas until we're actually at risk of the fish running out. There's nothing "traditional" about strip-mining, which turns mountains into dead piles of mud. Etc.

While I sympathize with the above statements, human waste of natural resources and pollution is actually older than the Industrial Age. One famous example is the Mayan city-state (I forgot which specifically) that destroyed itself by excessive deforestation and mining of limestone to make all those great buildings of theirs. The culture that built the stone heads on Easter Island most likely similarly killed itself by mismanagement of resources - eg. deforestation (virtually all trees wiped out) - according to a 2006 study.

[Z_Zoquis]

I do my part in the battle against global warming. Every morning as the sun comes up, I go out onto my front lawn and shake my fist at it vigorously.

[dk123123dk]

I try to minimize my impact on the environment within reason. I'm not perfect, but I I feel like every little bit helps.

dk

[Traintrack]

It takes a huge amount of self importance to think that your "Carbon Footprint" means sheet. I have a forest fire and the 7 oceans with your name on them.

The Planet is wayyyyy bigger than this political propaganda.


http://narocroc.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/lemmings.jpg?w=300&h=187

[Count_Chocolat]

Don't use plastic
No bottled water in my house
Use dishwasher
Got high efficiency appliances recently
Recycle everything possible
Use CFL bulbs
Trying to get my family to turn out lights
Buy quality not quantity
Buy used when possible.
Walk more
Work from home as much as possible
Try to consolidate trips when going shopping.

Eat less & Burn my garbage (just kidding)

[michael.e]

I wonder who caused the incredible warming that depleted the glaciers/ice that once filled the Yosemite Valley.

Bastards :bitch

[EXPcustom]

Lead free solder makes the new amps sound like crap and causes premature wear on the components.

There I said it, flame away.

[ACfixer]

It sure is easy to just put it on the big companies ehhh ... Everyone needs to start do their part ... I'm not saying you have to buy green products but it might help a bit to live a cleaner lifestyle ...

You're telling me to live a cleaner lifestyle? Good thing I have you to tell me what I need to do, I hadn't the foggiest. :jo

[GovernorSilver]

I bought my first couple of shares of a green/"clean" energy ETF. Time will tell if I make some money off of this ETF.

[teleman1]

Global warming! FACT. Disbelieve? You don't have the facts or believe the truth. You must be in the same crowd that uses sandpaper instead of toilet paper; I guess thats your bag. I prefer Chiffon.

[michael.e]

Global warming! FACT. Disbelieve? You don't have the facts or believe the truth. You must be in the same crowd that uses sandpaper instead of toilet paper; I guess thats your bag. I prefer Chiffon.

IT IS A FACT THAT YOSEMITE VALLY USED TO FILLED WITH ICE! NOW IT IS WARMER TO SUCH A HORRIBLE EXTENT THAT THERE IS NO ICE LEFT IN THERE!!!! :bitch


uh, sorry for yelling, i just get worked up sometimes. golbal warming is real.

[amigo30]

It takes a huge amount of self importance to think that your "Carbon Footprint" means sheet. I have a forest fire and the 7 oceans with your name on them.

The Planet is wayyyyy bigger than this political propaganda.


http://narocroc.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/lemmings.jpg?w=300&h=187

Take 7 billion people and line them up, then take all their garbage and put it in a big pile, dump all the smoke and toxins that they use in their lifetimes in the air, then have them dig up and cut down everything they want..then do that for many generations, .and...well...you've got a pretty big mess.

Then double that population...

Again, screw climate change, but with 7 billion (That's BILLION, as in 7,000,000,000) people on the planet, who can argue against responsible resource usage and cleaning up after ourselves? Is anyone REALLY that adamantly against that?

http://randomtally.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/crying-indian3.jpg

[Bluedawg]

I bought my first couple of shares of a green/"clean" energy ETF. Time will tell if I make some money off of this ETF.


Al Gore's nearly a billionair, now .....

:jo

[TubeeTuberton]

global warming is real.

Do you feel that the biggest contributor to this "problem" is the human race? If so, what would be the percentage?

[michael.e]

Do you feel that the biggest contributor to this "problem" is the human race? If so, what would be the percentage?

I think it was either dinosaurs or martians.




AND DON'T EDIT MY TEXT!!!!! :bitch

[michael.e]

:D ......

[phoenix 7]

While I sympathize with the above statements, human waste of natural resources and pollution is actually older than the Industrial Age. One famous example is the Mayan city-state (I forgot which specifically) that destroyed itself by excessive deforestation and mining of limestone to make all those great buildings of theirs. The culture that built the stone heads on Easter Island most likely similarly killed itself by mismanagement of resources - eg. deforestation (virtually all trees wiped out) - according to a 2006 study.

Fascinating. It looks like we are following those traditions after all. But the precedents don't look encouraging.

[Bob Longo]

The earth is fine, and will be long after we're gone.! Just too many of us.

As for doing my part, I recycle glass and plastics. I turn off lights when I leave a room. I try not to be wasteful. And I build waste water and clean water treatment facilities for a living.

[Jazz2Punk]

Again, screw climate change, but with 7 billion (That's BILLION, as in 7,000,000,000) people on the planet, who can argue against responsible resource usage and cleaning up after ourselves? Is anyone REALLY that adamantly against that?

Couldn't have said it better myself! :aok

[twinrider1]

I try to be responsible. And it is a part of my decision making process. I don't go nuts over it. But I'll consider something renewable like bamboo for flooring next time I need it.
It's got to at least try to make economic sense too.

[The Last Rebel]

Global warming! FACT. Disbelieve? You don't have the facts or believe the truth. You must be in the same crowd that uses sandpaper instead of toilet paper; I guess thats your bag. I prefer Chiffon.
Yes, the earth is getting warmer. Now, part of this may be the small ice age we've come out of in the past few centuries, but that always seems to be left out.

[GovernorSilver]

Al Gore's nearly a billionair, now .....

:jo

Good for him I guess, but I don't see the relationship to what I posted which was about investing in a certain Exchange Trade Fund.

Pickens is pretty rich too, last I heard. He's all about wind farms and stuff. But he's in a whole different party from Al.

[Traintrack]

Take 7 billion people and line them up, then take all their garbage and put it in a big pile, dump all the smoke and toxins that they use in their lifetimes in the air, then have them dig up and cut down everything they want..then do that for many generations, .and...well...you've got a pretty big mess.

Then double that population...

Again, screw climate change, but with 7 billion (That's BILLION, as in 7,000,000,000) people on the planet, who can argue against responsible resource usage and cleaning up after ourselves? Is anyone REALLY that adamantly against that?



If you took the entire population of earth, and housed them in quarter acre lots with four people living in each of those lots, the global population could be houses in an area the size of Alaska, with room to spare for some growth.

696,241 square miles (size of Alaska) multiplied by 640 (acres per square mile) multiplied by 4 (four houses per acre) multiplies by 4 (four people per house) equals 7,129,507,840. (the earths population is six billion plus. Alaska represents 1.2% of the earths land area.

Population explosion is another thing that YOU can worry about.

[Ian Anderson]

I drive a hybrid. It burns gas AND oil.

ML I thought every house in CA has recycling bins. I have 4 at mine. My folks have 2. We recycle everything. The recycling truck comes by every other week.

[Scott Miller]

If you took the entire population of earth, and housed them in quarter acre lots with four people living in each of those lots, the global population could be houses in an area the size of Alaska, with room to spare for some growth.

Surely you can see what's so obviously wrong with that argument.

[greggorypeccary]

If you took the entire population of earth, and housed them in quarter acre lots with four people living in each of those lots, the global population could be houses in an area the size of Alaska, with room to spare for some growth.

696,241 square miles (size of Alaska) multiplied by 640 (acres per square mile) multiplied by 4 (four houses per acre) multiplies by 4 (four people per house) equals 7,129,507,840. (the earths population is six billion plus. Alaska represents 1.2% of the earths land area.

Population explosion is another thing that YOU can worry about.

If only it were that simple...

[amigo30]

I can't wait to see which 1/4 acre of Alaska I get to live on with 3 other people.

I think these surveyors are out there trying to get it all set up for us:

http://online.wr.usgs.gov/outreach/images/tundra_alaska_large.jpg

[bluesjuke]

I am a Man.

The rest of the population can be "humans" all you want to be.
I'm not playing that game.


BTW, I'm all for conservation and being responsible, frugal where possible since I was a child, but I'm not attending the "new church".

[pickaguitar]

^ That makes no sense! None

[gregc]

Go, Nukes! Absolutely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My feelings exactly. I live my life in a clean and responsible fashion but the whole green thing is a scam IMO. Corn syrup bags? You've got to be kidding me. How about telling huge companies to cut back on the ridiculous amount of packaging with every product? My whole recycle bin is filled every week with packaging and JUNK MAIL I obviously didn't need, and I live alone. It's just STUPID. It's insanity that I have to pay to haul away a huge barrel of stuff every week, I have far more recyclable stuff in my bins than actual garbage.

I can't go on without violating the TGP rules but I'll end with this. Anybody that was truly "green" and had half a brain would be lobbying for more nuclear energy plants. They are far and away the cleanest, cheapest, and safest form of energy.

[mcdonaldkd]

Global warming! FACT.

Well, no it isn't.

[Section10]

TGP has a strict "no religion" policy here.


This really is the best post here.

To insinuate that humans contribute to global warming is mere mockery of our intelligence.
This issue has been blown out of proportion not by climatologists but by the politicians that hired them.

To listen to Al Gore whine about endangered polar bears is seriously laughable.
Cant help but think of that Irishman who asked him a few weeks ago "How are they endangered if their numbers are increasing?"
Al: "Are you saying that they're not endangered?"
Irishman: "Sir, their numbers are increasing"

Doesn't matter what car you drive, or how many cows have flatulence. Its a smoke and mirrors for political gain and they count on people like us to spread their "concern", because 'who wouldn't want to care about the environment'?
The latest report out about the proposed Cap n Trade deal was that in 40 years it MIGHT reduce emissions by .5degrees. And by "might" they mean, it makes absolutely no difference because global warming AND cooling is part of a natural cycle depending on earth's axis....sun flares....

I do however believe in protecting forests and nature since they are 'real' entities. We can see de-forestation.

[newking70]

Pickens is pretty rich too, last I heard. He's all about wind farms and stuff. But he's in a whole different party from Al.

wrong, he bailed on wind farms.

[whitecadillac]

I doubt I am doing everything I can to lessen the impact I have on the planet but I recycle, give useable stuff away instead of throwing it into a landfill, walk more and drive less, wear more sweaters inside and heat less etc. I would rather be wrong about it making a difference than be wrong doing by doing nothing.

I don't get, along with some others in this thread, what is wrong with taking care of the place you live in.

[bsuite]

I doubt I am doing everything I can to lessen the impact I have on the planet but I recycle, give useable stuff away instead of throwing it into a landfill, walk more and drive less, wear more sweaters inside and heat less etc. I would rather be wrong about it making a difference than be wrong doing by doing nothing.

I don't get, along with some others in this thread, what is wrong with taking care of the place you live in.

Relax, your not that important in the scheme of things.
I doubt if the planet even knows your here. :wave

[MudPies]

I am a Man.

The rest of the population can be "humans" all you want to be.
I'm not playing that game.


BTW, I'm all for conservation and being responsible, frugal where possible since I was a child, but I'm not attending the "new church".

Sorry brahski, you're a Human too.

:phones

[GovernorSilver]

wrong, he bailed on wind farms.

I guess he hasn't updated his website yet - it still mentions a goal of 22% of USA's energy coming from wind power:

http://www.pickensplan.com/theplan/

There are several pillars to the Pickens Plan:


Create millions of new jobs by building out the capacity to generate up to 22 percent of our electricity from wind. And adding to that with additional solar generation capacity;
Building a 21st century backbone electrical transmission grid;
Providing incentives for homeowners and the owners of commercial buildings to upgrade their insulation and other energy saving options; and
Using America's natural gas to replace imported oil as a transportation fuel in addition to its other uses in power generation, chemicals, etc.

[phoenix 7]

If you took the entire population of earth, and housed them in quarter acre lots with four people living in each of those lots, the global population could be houses in an area the size of Alaska, with room to spare for some growth.

Yes, and most of them would be dead within 3 weeks due to a lack of food and water. So scratch that idea. :Spank

A lack of space is not the problem that human overpopulation presents. It's a lack of food and resources to sustain that population. In 2006, more than 36 million people died of hunger or diseases due to deficiencies in micronutrients. 1 in 12 people in the world suffers from malnutrition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malnutrition

[newking70]

I guess he hasn't updated his website yet - it still mentions a goal of 22% of USA's energy coming from wind power:

http://www.pickensplan.com/theplan/





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR8Rm0vWlfM

[GovernorSilver]

I'm always up for edumacatin' so I looked up what the deal was with Pickens and a "failed wind farm":

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/07/08/t-boone-pickens-scraps-wind-farm-for-now/


The sky-high oil prices which made the Pickens project look viable came crashing down to earth and credit markets dried up. Moreover, Pickens encountered technical problems he had not expected, according to Ken Starcher, associate director for the Alternative Energy Institute at West Texas A&M University.

Another problem was logistical. Pickens needed to spend about $2 billion building a new transmission line to connect the wind farm with the two electricity grids that operate in Texas. This has the potential to create delays which would be intolerable.
This above info sounds a lot different than "he bailed on wind farms".

Sure he has some self-interest. He'll probably make more money off his natural gas business if his plan succeeds. But he was counting on making some off of wind and solar power too. More and more people will realize there's money to be made off clean energy and other green businesses (other than simply selling more books), which is ironic because the major religions are against making money, except perhaps certain megachurches.

[Scott Miller]

"Some members of the press take advantage of the complexity by stating that "polar bears are not in trouble—their numbers have doubled since the 1960s." That's a disingenuous statement, of course. It is true that polar bear populations rebounded after over-hunting was restricted, but that situation has nothing to do with the threat polar bears now face: the loss of the sea ice habitat essential to their survival."

[Rich M]

IBTL!



I recycle, carpool, heat almost exclusively with wood and have 5 kW of solar panels going on my roof this week.

Even if you choose to not believe in global warming, our dependence on foreign oil is a national security issue that will have us collectively cowering at the feet of kooks like Hugo Chavez and that Iranian nut (what his name?). Think about that next time you fill your Hummer.

There is really no way to cover the energy needs of the country without nukes. If your opposed to nukes and drilling for oil, you should be a big fan of conservation. Conservation is way cheaper than alternative energy. We'll save ~1.2 kWh a year by chucking a 30 year old fridge we had in the basement and replacing it with an energy star one. Got $150 from the utility to do it. Also, most utilities offer free home energy audits. They generally will come in, replace all or most of your lights with CFL's and offer you subsidized options of improving your energy efficiency (more insulation, better water heaters, etc.)...for free.

[newking70]

we get most our oil from canada. http://icrontic.com/forum/images/smilies/Canflag.gif

[GovernorSilver]

we get most our oil from canada. http://icrontic.com/forum/images/smilies/Canflag.gif

Damn their beady eyes and their flapping heads!:bitch

[Rich M]

Oil's a global commodity and demand drives prices. It doesn't matter whether your dollars go to Iran or someone else's. And we do get a lot of oil from Venezuela we just get more from Canada.

[Rich M]

Damn their beady eyes and their flapping heads!:bitch

Yeah, I wasn't going to say anything. :roll

[Traintrack]

"Some members of the press take advantage of the complexity by stating that "polar bears are not in trouble—their numbers have doubled since the 1960s." That's a disingenuous statement, of course. It is true that polar bear populations rebounded after over-hunting was restricted, but that situation has nothing to do with the threat polar bears now face: the loss of the sea ice habitat essential to their survival."


There is no threat of sea ice disappearing, and there is no Santa Claus.

Believe what you choose. But do not expect me not to have pity on your gullibility. The Church of Global Warming is a fraud and exists only to control your life and mine on a global scale.

We need to fight and end this insanity.

[jaydub69]

We need to fight...

Maybe we need less fighting. Perhaps just let it be? I know for sure that I don't agree with 99% of everyone else, but that doesn't make me berate people for their beliefs. Besides, what's it to you?

Look, me and a lot of others on this thread aren't even talking about global warming. It has been discussed (not rebuked) in only a few posts. Most of us are only discussing conservation and limiting our pollution. This is not the same as proving or disproving global warming. Frankly I don't give a damn about it, but I'd still like to maintain better air and water conditions than we had 40 years ago.

This is the OP: "Do any TGP'ers here use green products or strive to keep the planet cleaner and more toxin free...?

Do you? No? Yes? I don't give a shit what you do, but you still haven't even answered it. Why even be on this thread? Is it to prove to us all how wrong we are and how right you are?

-john

[whitecadillac]

Relax, your not that important in the scheme of things.
I doubt if the planet even knows your here. :wave

You are of course entitled to your opinion. I believe, however, that you're wrong.

:wave

[Glowing Tubes]

http://www.cksinfo.com/clipart/animals/birds/ostriches/ostrich-head-In-Sand.png

[CharlieS]

And I thought Gibson v. Fender v. PRS causes arguments....:jo

[michael.e]

http://www.cksinfo.com/clipart/animals/birds/ostriches/ostrich-head-In-Sand.png



Which side? The good one?

[seafoamer]

- Commute to work on a bicycle 3 times a week or more.
- make my own lunch & wash & reuse sandwhich bags.
- drink tap water & use my reusable squeeze bottle.
- recycle.
- don't flush the peepee.
- no paper plates, or cups.
- purchase as much local food as possible.
- I buy most of my clothes from thrift shops (I like retro styles anyway).
- Hang my clothes to dry, instead of using a dryer.
etc.

oh, I also wash & re-use condoms.

j/k j/k :D

[michael.e]

Idda know, for me, I don't like the idea of doing things like flushing/draining away chemicals that you are not supposed to put on your skin. Cleaning products that are gnarly etc...
That said, I will NOT indulge in unsanitary practices.

I surf in the ocean just down the street from my house, I don't like the idea of having to surf/eat from an ocean that has that crap [yes] in it.

I am not a "Greeny" by any stretch. I do not buy the rhetoric from unsubstantiated factual opinion from either side. I do think that we should take care of our surroundings, but to think that we are causing major shifts in the global/atmospheric structure...
We cannot even tell what the weather is going to be like next week, let alone knowing about what the climate [a whold different thing, and WAY more complex] is going to do in a few/tens/hundreds of years.
I am sure that one could find scientists that are pretty interested in keeping their stipends coming, will move towards a certain direction that "requires more monitoring".
Anyway, I am going to go help destroy the planet by taking a shower now...

It is really pretty easy, don't shit in your bed, if you can help it.
I think to a degree, we all do.

[Wilbur]

We live pretty green. More so than we did 20 years ago. I don't go to the church or subscribe to the politics behind it all though.

[Mark]

Global Cooling to Global Warming and now we call it Climate Change

[phoenix 7]

There is no threat of sea ice disappearing, and there is no Santa Claus.

Believe what you choose. But do not expect me not to have pity on your gullibility. The Church of Global Warming is a fraud and exists only to control your life and mine on a global scale.

We need to fight and end this insanity.

Yes, it's an insidious plot to make us drive more fuel-efficient vehicles and recycle paper!! It's EVIL!! Ahhhhh!!!

:crazy:rotflmao

[captain_bob]

Drinking from a Brita water filter isn't going to stop the polar ice caps from melting.
As said before, I believe that 'Going Green' is just a gimmick.

If you really want to make a difference you need to go off the grid and become self sufficient, living off the land. But then again that didn't work the cavemen either. The changing of the global climate is inevitable. It's been changing for millions of years and it will continue to change long after the aliens have taken over.

[michael.e]

It's been changing for millions of years and it will continue to change long after the aliens have taken over.

I KNEW IT!!!!! :bitch



eDITS- Wait, Aliens and Canadadians are two different things right?

[Section10]

Polar bears now endangered by "the loss of the sea ice habitat essential to their survival."

False. YOu can't go to Al's website for information. You take summer pictures of icebergs to compare with winter one's from 30 years ago.
Even if, icebergs are actually 'increasing' but it depends where. If they melt in one stop (where Al is taking his pictures) and increasing in other spots it results in NOTHING.

You're being mislead. Thats my point. If you watch how these 'environmentalists' live their lives flying their jets all over the world to inform us of the dangers of carbon emissions and leave their lights on during earth day, it shows you that its not as big as they make it seem.

Just keep your minds open because the fraud has already been exposed, just nobody to report it, YOU have to find IT. I havent seen any media bring it to us.

[MudPies]

If your plain tap water isn't very good drinking quality then using a water filter is a much better greener option than buying bottled water.

[Section10]

The green thing to do is to stop flying jets all over the world playing on the hoax of global warming *ahem* "climate change" and end it. The facts are out. 650,000 climatologists disagree, its not happening, we're actually in a 'cooling' stage as we speak, we have record lows continually hitting, polar bears are increasing in numbers, icebergs growing, politicians benefiting. If you've been misinformed fine. If you choose to keep spreading the lies. Then a spanking you shall get.

[mdog114]

The green thing to do is to stop flying jets all over the world playing on the hoax of global warming *ahem* "climate change" and end it. The facts are out. 650,000 climatologists disagree, its not happening, we're actually in a 'cooling' stage as we speak, we have record lows continually hitting, polar bears are increasing in numbers, icebergs growing, politicians benefiting. If you've been misinformed fine. If you choose to keep spreading the lies. Then a spanking you shall get.

So true!

Although this is being pushed by a younger demographic, even our more mature folks seem incapable to use even their own experiences.

I remember the mustard-puke yellow smog that hung over NYC and LA, it was like a soup. I remember trash EVERYWHERE you looked. I remember fishing my favorite hole and pulling up tires and beer cans. I remember the Crying Indian!

Now if I fish that same hole, it's pure as sunshine, there's no puke hanging over the city, if you see an empty can in the parks, it's a surprise and even as I drive all around the NYC/Metro area, there's a minimum amount of litter on our busiest highways.

Some people just seem to get swept up in these things without using the own ability to think and reason.

[Rich M]

http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/ap-impact-statisticians-reject-174088.html

[Rich M]

I remember the mustard-puke yellow smog that hung over NYC and LA, it was like a soup. I remember trash EVERYWHERE you looked. I remember fishing my favorite hole and pulling up tires and beer cans. I remember the Crying Indian!

Now if I fish that same hole, it's pure as sunshine, there's no puke hanging over the city, if you see an empty can in the parks, it's a surprise and even as I drive all around the NYC/Metro area, there's a minimum amount of litter on our busiest highways.


I pretty sure that because of the clean air/water acts and billions spent on environmental cleanup. Did you think it happened by itself?

[It's Time!]

I ike Green beans, does that count?

http://static.px.yelp.com/bphoto/RHYYB-1TtApV6AKoP61gfw/l

[Rich M]

If you think that environmentalism is hockum, you should check out China where there are areas of the country that we would deem uninhabitable due to the rate of cancer/disease, birth defects, etc due to pollution from industrial activity. The fact that we found our way 40 years ago to stop this before we ended up similarly is really a testament to our countries sensibility. The fact that we are apparently losing it makes me sad and scared.

[GovernorSilver]

Forgot to list my green living habits:

Use mostly CFLs in my home lighting
Use biodegradable trash bags
Use green cleaning products (also use white vinegar and baking soda for cleaning)
Don't use bottled water
Invest in socially responsible mutual funds and ETFs (available from Invesco Powershares and others - I don't make a dime off you if you invest in those, btw)
Put stuff in my recycle bin for the weekly pickup by the county

No, I'm not an activist or a preacher or anything else to be afraid of. I don't own a copy of Gore's book.

[BobboVisMe]

Forgot to list my green living habits:

Use mostly CFLs in my home lighting
Use biodegradable trash bags
Use green cleaning products (also use white vinegar and baking soda for cleaning)
Don't use bottled water
Invest in socially responsible mutual funds and ETFs (available from Invesco Powershares and others - I don't make a dime off you if you invest in those, btw)
Put stuff in my recycle bin for the weekly pickup by the county

No, I'm not an activist or a preacher or anything else to be afraid of. I don't own a copy of Gore's book.



See it doesn't take that much to cut down on the toxic lifestyle most of us live !!1 :aok

[Timinator]

Global warming! FACT. Disbelieve? You don't have the facts or believe the truth. You must be in the same crowd that uses sandpaper instead of toilet paper; I guess thats your bag. I prefer Chiffon.



No, being an atmospheric scientist I do, in fact, have the facts. Worked on one part or another of most every study conducted which took the data used to "Predict" Global Warming. Even worked on the studies that collected all the ground truth data used to make sure the models were predicting the correct values. Also helped work and design the models! That enough FACT for you? Now listen up and I'll tell you a secret....It's all CRAP. It's a LIE, don't BELIEVE it and quit spreading it. Look at what the people do not what they say. All of them.

[will132]

No, being an atmospheric scientist I do, in fact, have the facts. Worked on one part or another of most every study conducted which took the data used to "Predict" Global Warming. Even worked on the studies that collected all the ground truth data used to make sure the models were predicting the correct values. Also helped work and design the models! That enough FACT for you? Now listen up and I'll tell you a secret....It's all CRAP. It's a LIE, don't BELIEVE it and quit spreading it. Look at what the people do not what they say. All of them.


What company did/do you work for and can you direct us to the data and results that was collected?

[seafoamer]

Look at what the people do not what they say. All of them.

huh?

[A-Bone]

This thread seems to be going in the predictable direction.

[michael.e]

No it's isn't!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM)



http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y175/M_E113123/dead_parrot.jpg

[will132]

This thread seems to be going in the predictable direction.

Very true.

Too bad, there are plenty of reasons to make changes than the usual tired old reasons that are countered with the tired old disagreements.

[Jazz2Punk]

I didn't know my desire to recycle was part of a global conspiracy to control mankind! :roll

[will132]

I didn't know my desire to recycle was part of a global conspiracy to control mankind! :roll


The "man" has been playing you like a fiddle.

Mission accomplished :aok

[Traintrack]

I have been buying as many of these as as possible.

http://img01.static-nextag.com/image/GE-BULB-100-W/0/000/000/163/972/16397243.jpg

There is no way that I am going to live my life with those mercury bulbs made in China.

I am no longer wondering if people will have chips implanted in their heads. There are many people on this thread that would be first in line.

It is a scary situation in this world these days. I am the luckiest generation that has ever lived on planet earth. I have been able to make most of my decisions with out being told what is best by some idiot with a degree. I wonder how people can submit to to this new dictation of living.

I will beat any system that in put in my way. Carbon allowance? BS, dictated house temp? BS.

Save the Planet? How important do you really think you are? You are nothing but carbon. It's all about making yourself Feel good. And feel that you are a better Human.

I like the post that said I am a Man not a human. Think about that.

[MudPies]

You've got people on the uber green side who act like buffoons with doomsday stories. Then you've got people on the other side of the train tracks that reject anything that even remotely resembles being conscientious and "green" apparently out of spit.

The middle ground is where it's at people.

[phoenix 7]

The green thing to do is to stop flying jets all over the world playing on the hoax of global warming *ahem* "climate change" and end it. The facts are out. 650,000 climatologists disagree, its not happening, we're actually in a 'cooling' stage as we speak....

Wow, that a LOT of climatologists. You might want to doublecheck your "facts." :facepalm

[Glowing Tubes]

I cant believe we're STILL having this conversation....
Yes each person makes a choice.
For some of you, it's about only you, self absorbed, self righteous to the very end, for the rest who believe we're all inter-connected I would consider have a larger awareness of the bigger picture. Everything we do has a consequences, no matter how small. I'm far from perfect on any green scorecard but try to make decisions each day on how to be lower my impact to our environment, my choice.

[Srvwannab]

I don't happen to believe that our choices are between being inter-connected or self absorbed and self righteous. My guess is there are self absorbed and self righteous folks on either side of the environmental equation. Self absorbed and self righteous folks often believe that they know whats right for the rest of us, often even if it runs incredibly contrary to their own well documented behavior.

There are also plenty of good folks on both sides of the environmental issue. There are People who might not buy off on all the climate change hysteria, but also believe it is our responsibility to leave this place better than we found it.

I'm sure there's plenty we don't know about these issues- and I'm glad that there are people that are working to sort it out. Hopefully we will all be able to approach these issues with minds that are open enough to accept the truth as we find it- on both sides of the issue.

[brlfq]

IBTL!

I recycle, carpool, heat almost exclusively with wood and have 5 kW of solar panels going on my roof this week.


Is heating with wood energy efficient?

How long will it take to recoup the cost of those solar panels if you figure the cost of electricity at . .. say 12 cents per kwh?

How long are the solar panels supposed to last?

[Scott Miller]

"I didn't know my desire to recycle was part of a global conspiracy to control mankind!"

The debate used to be framed as "Conservation is stopping progress," which is still a common theme. Somehow, we managed to clean up the air, at least in my city, without ruining the economy, so it turned out to be not such a valid debate.

The "global conspiracy to control lives" theory is, thankfully, the domain of the tinfoil hats.

[michael.e]

I cant believe we're STILL having this conversation....
Yes each person makes a choice.
For some of you, it's about only you, self absorbed, self righteous to the very end, for the rest who believe we're all inter-connected I would consider have a larger awareness of the bigger picture. Everything we do has a consequences, no matter how small. I'm far from perfect on any green scorecard but try to make decisions each day on how to be lower my impact to our environment, my choice.


Go ahead, who are YOU going to judge who is self absorbed, self riteous...

That is one of my biggest problems with the various "movements" surrounding this type of issue.

The thought and intention behind these kinds of issues, does for sure have a basis, but, for some to think it is right for.....
Oi...
So, those you think are not "inter-connected" are self absorbed/riteous. Do you know anything about them past what they are posting as various thoughts that are just a small part of their psyche??

I get that it will always be "us and them". I get that there will never be a medium.
You do what you do, I will do what I do.
I will continue to recycle, even though friends that i have in the industry, say it is all bullshiite.
I will continue to not put crazy chemicals down the drain when I clean my bathroom.
I will continue to "consume" and "waste" by driving, buying surfboards, expecting NITRO guitars, keeping my flashlights working, posting my thoughts on the internet...


"Not me baby, I'm too precious, F$#^ OFF!"

[michael.e]

The debate used to be framed as "Conservation is stopping progress," which is still a common theme. Somehow, we managed to clean up the air, at least in my city, without ruining the economy, so it turned out to be not such a valid debate.

The "global conspiracy to control lives" theory is, thankfully, the domain of the tinfoil hats.

The economy is not becomming ruined due to intervention? Really??

Well, in all fairness, it is due to many things, but, well...

[Traintrack]

The "global conspiracy to control lives" theory is, thankfully, the domain of the tinfoil hats.

How can you Believe that ? Really? you have to believe it in order to ignore the process that is about to bestow itself on you and I.

Is it not "Control" but choices that will be made for you in the name of "Saving the Planet"

What happens when you are issued a personal Carbon allowance? That is tin foil? It is being discussed right now in Europe.

Light Bulbs. you will have no choice but to install those Chinese (not made here in America) mercury, inferior bulbs in the next few years. How many bulbs are there in just America?

There are approximately 112 million households, in each home there are at least 20 bulbs. Thats around 2.2 Billion bulbs in just America and just homes.

2.2 billion bulbs
x Each bulb contains an average of 5 milligrams of mercury
11 billion Milligrams of mercury

387,200 lbs of one of the most deadly none bi o-degra-da-ble substances introduced to environment. It is probably 10 times that.

How is that going to save the planet in 100 years? It is so insane that I cannot even imagine that this is going to be a reality. And you must exhibit "Faith" again that they all will be handled in a responsible manner in order for the Mercury to be recycled properly just adds to the insanity. Would you like to live next to a plant manufacturing these bulbs? Someone is.

It is all about control and you just dismissing it as a tin foil hat wearing idiot's opinion is foolish.

All the energy and resources that will be spent trying to control the weather will divert funds and efforts from other much needed programs that could have a major impact on the quality of life for people that are in need. That process would be real and not some computer model guessing the future temperature.

[MudPies]

Where do you live Traintrack? (http://www.epa.gov/waste/hazard/wastetypes/universal/lamps/live.htm)

[Srvwannab]

The "global conspiracy to control lives" theory is, thankfully, the domain of the tinfoil hats.
If you go back to before this 200 year plus experiment in Freedom that we have been part of as Americans I would suggest that the vast majority of people born on this earth have had "controlled lives." I believe that our freedom has been the historical exception, not the rule.

I think it is always wise to be concerned about the loss of freedom. I know it was something of great concern to our founders.

With all of that said, I think that we have an obligation to protect what we have, not only for our own good, but for those that will follow us.

I took my family to Zion National park this year. I am glad that somebody made the effort to preserve it. Yosemite, Yellowstone, and the Grand Canyon are just a few places that people have sought to preserve for our benefit and thank them.

Anybody seen Pittsburgh lately? Anybody see pictures of Pittsburgh from the middle of the last century? Somebody (I'm guessing a whole bunch of somebodies) made some really good decisions about "turning back the dial" on that place. It is a beautiful city.

Complicated problems seldom have simple answers.

All I know is I think I look pretty good in my tin-foil hat. :)

[michael.e]

Idda know man, I am liking all of this social intercouse...

[mcdonaldkd]

Ha, you said intercourse.

[Rich M]

Is heating with wood energy efficient?

The fireplace insert we have (Quadrafire 5100I) is as effcient as a good woodstove. We displaced about 1200 gal of oil per year with 8 cords of hardwood which is about right.
In terms of carbon emissions, wood is considered carbon neutral as it is releasing carbon that was sequested fairly recently (as opposed to millions of years ago). I tend to burn a lot of dead trees or, this year, storm damaged trees, so I'm actually extracting energy from wood that, if it was left to rot, would release it's carbon anyway.


How long will it take to recoup the cost of those solar panels if you figure the cost of electricity at . .. say 12 cents per kwh? Well I pay $0.145/kwh so I used that in my calculation with an inflation rate of 3.5% (conservative if cap and trade goes through). With State and Federal incentives, payback is about 12-14 years. If I were in CA, NY or NJ where the incentives are much better, it would be a lot sooner.


How long are the solar panels supposed to last?They are guaranteed for 25 years, although the output spec is derated (90% after ten years and 80% after 20 years, IIRC. The inverters only are guaranteed for 10 years so I'll be on the hook for at least one of those during the system's lifetime.

[michael.e]

Heh, I love technicalities....



Oil was made at least 100 years ago
Wood was made at least 100 years ago.









You burn now, you burn now.


Again, it is this type of rhetoric that makes so much of this laughable.



Head up to the Alaska backcountry with your family and thrive there. Fight the bears for food and kill them for warmth. Then that argument might have some creidiblilty.

[Scott Miller]

Viz the original post:

- I never understood buying water in bottles, so I don't.
- I drive a Prius because it shuts off the engine when I'm not moving.
- I turn lights out in rooms where I am not, because I don't need to see in there.
- I don't have an air conditioner.
- In the winter, the thermostat is at 64, and I wear extra clothes.
- We have insanely easy recycling now. It all goes in one bin.

I dunno, so much of being green is like, if you have a five dollar bill, do you just kind of throw it away? That's what buying bottle water is like to me, or cranking up the furnace. I can afford it, but it's a waste of money.

[MudPies]

Have you been drinking tonight michael.e?

[michael.e]

JJUST BECAAUSEE i HHHAVE BILLLY MUMMMMY AND TEH ROBORT AS MY NEW AVVVTAR, IS NOOOOO SIGHN TAHHHT i AM ENKNEEBREETED...


LLOVE MIKOL.....
LOVE YOUMAN[URP]

[MudPies]

hehe, nice

[Section10]

Wow, that a LOT of climatologists. You might want to doublecheck your "facts." :facepalm


ha, ur right, i mistyped my 'numbers' not facts.

There was a petition to protest Kyoto treaty, 19,000 is the number of scientists,
650,000 is the years to which was originally claimed co2 levels is highest in,
"According to the IPCC Report on Global Warming, rising CO2 causes Global Warming, and CO2 now is higher than at any time in the last 650,000 years. If this were true, then it would be warmer now than at any time in the last 650,000 years. But it is not. 8,000 years ago, CO2 was 120 parts per million lower than now, and the climate was warmer than now. Now, CO2 is higher, but the climate is cooler. Thus we know that the IPCC’s global warming theory is false. "

[michael.e]

ha, ur right, i mistyped my 'numbers' not facts.

There was a petition to protest Kyoto treaty, 19,000 is the number of scientists,
650,000 is the years to which was originally claimed co2 levels is highest in,
"According to the IPCC Report on Global Warming, rising CO2 causes Global Warming, and CO2 now is higher than at any time in the last 650,000 years. If this were true, then it would be warmer now than at any time in the last 650,000 years. But it is not. 8,000 years ago, CO2 was 120 parts per million lower than now, and the climate was warmer than now. Now, CO2 is higher, but the climate is cooler. Thus we know that the IPCC’s global warming theory is false. "

Ya, I mean come on now. We all know that parts of Britan, Scotland, Norwegia [or whatever you call it], Swedishland, Geenland, were very temperate, habitable places in the past..

Let's get back to those temps before we start running piggly wiggly around and lamenting the end of the earth so some folks can line their pockets/stipends.

Man, is it hot in here, or is it just me..

[Scott Miller]

You can easily find plenty of sources that say that the 19,000 scientist claim is bogus. Or the 400, 650, 14,000, or 31,000 scientist claim. In fact, for every "global warming is a myth" argument, you can easily find a rebuttal. Some of the more obscure ones, that are so obviously brain-dead, take a little longer, sometimes as much as ten minutes, because hardly anyone bothers to rebut them. Really, try finding a rebuttal to any of those "global warming is a myth" arguments, and come back and let us all know when you find one that has no rebuttal.

Not that it makes any difference. People believe what they want to believe. But, think of it this way: Obviously, someone is being duped. Who are the potential dupers? On one side, the entire fossil fuel industry. Kinda sorta believable they would be interested in being the dupers.

On the other hand, the dupers could be some sort of vast conspiracy of scientists, and, depending on who you believe, some sort of cabal based in Rome, and some sort of nameless global government... um, something and ... well, whatever else your imagination can come up with, really.

[brlfq]

Not that it makes any difference. People believe what they want to believe. But, think of it this way: Obviously, someone is being duped. Who are the potential dupers? On one side, the entire fossil fuel industry. Kinda sorta believable they would be interested in being the dupers.

On the other hand, the dupers could be some sort of vast conspiracy of scientists, and, depending on who you believe, some sort of cabal based in Rome, and some sort of nameless global government... um, something and ... well, whatever else your imagination can come up with, really.

A new one! Congrats!

We could call it the, "The people I believe are out to get us" are more odious than "The people you believe are out to get us" theory! Excellent! Game. Set. Match!

[Section10]

The basic science is this. People are claiming increased carbon emissions CAUSE greater temperatures. However look at any chart and you can see that it's actually higher temperatures that is the ONSET of increased carbon. Higher carbon is always AFTER increased temperatures. That's when they realized people were misusing the info by claiming the inverse, increased carbon CAUSES increased temperatures. Not true.
You will ALWAYS find a rebuttal because people insist on making people believe this, their jobs are the line for as well as reputation. No different than a compulsive liar, they continue to back up their lies with more lies

[scott757]

Forget about global warming. It doesn't matter if it exists or if it's man-made. But living a more environmentally healthy lifestyle is good for everyone.

[Timinator]

What company did/do you work for and can you direct us to the data and results that was collected?

First Westec Services, then ERCE Environmental, then Odgen Environmental. Worked on many jobs mandated by the Air Pollution Control District in California for a variety of companies. Many projects were co-funded by the EPA, CA APCD and several of the companies fulfilling their air pollution control requirements. Several Tracer Gas studies were directly funded by NOAA, the EPA and all local Air Quality Control districts in ever state in the US. All data, after being collected and QAQC'd is put into whatever form required by the project and forwarded to the agency paying for the study. Auditing projects for JPL, NOAA and the EPA were to make sure all the ground meteorological stations in every state were actually taking accurate data (ha) and that that the ground data would actually correspond to the satellite data being imaged. That there is the kicker. Try and image through EVERY possible atmospheric condition on earth 24/7 and get repeatable data accurate to .1 degree C. Oh, and my emphasis is college was in Environmental and Resource Management and Atmospheric Science/Satellite Imagery. But now is seems to be collecting old Fender amps! Who knew!

[A-Bone]

Forget about global warming. It doesn't matter if it exists or if it's man-made. But living a more environmentally healthy lifestyle is good for everyone.

I would like to think that this is something we would all agree on, but I surely doubt it.

[scott757]

I would like to think that this is something we would all agree on, but I surely doubt it.


I've heard a talk radio guy take a stand so anti-global warming that he bragged about and encouraged his audience to drive SUV's with terrible gas mileage. Now, let's just assume that global warming is false and therefore can't be man made. This doesn't change the following:
1. oil is a non-renewable fossil fuel and the faster we use it the faster it's gone.
2. the lower your gas mileage the more expensive it is for the show's listeners who don't happen to pull in the 7 digit income the host makes.

Being environmentally friendly just makes the most sense to me.

[Jazz2Punk]

Being environmentally friendly just makes the most sense to me.

Yeah, me too.

First off, I don't get why every conversation about adopting 'green' living practices degenerates into an argument about global warming. WTF does global warming have to do with recycling or trying to change toxic or wasteful practices? :dunno

The debate about global warming has nothing to do with my desire to live a more conscious lifestyle. I'd rather be wrong about doing something that impacts the world in a positive manner than be wrong about something that destroys it.

[Section10]

Yeah, me too.

First off, I don't get why every conversation about adopting 'green' living practices degenerates into an argument about global warming. WTF does global warming have to do with recycling or trying to change toxic or wasteful practices? :dunno

The debate about global warming has nothing to do with my desire to live a more conscious lifestyle. I'd rather be wrong about doing something that impacts the world in a positive manner than be wrong about something that destroys it.


EXACTLY JAZZ. You have your finger on it and you don't even know it!!!
Environmentalists have been trying to force recycling and 'green' activities for years, but they never had enough push to make people to do it. If only they could create a 'reason' for people to be concerned with the environmental impacts they do, then maybe they'll start being green......
:) *hint* *hint*


most people have no problem recycling or contributing to environmental friendly things, but when they keep finding out about this phony pseudo-science of climate-change that keeps getting debunked until they come up with 'new' evidence, they get turned away and probably even worsens the good of environmental friendly activities. But this nonsense of dictating what cars we drive, taxing each cattle for its flatulence, taking every single natural disaster and contributing it to global warming is driving people insane that I think it will backfire on the environmentalists.
You wouldn't believe the things they're getting away with trying to tax more and more things in the name of "green".
Its so sickening I just want fart hot air

[Section10]

The point is, they've made "Global Warming" the dogma behind environmentally friendly activity.
It went from "Do this, cause its better for the environment"

But when that didnt' work as fast as they wanted it became:
"Do this or your family will float away on top of their house in the next few years"

Most people admire environmentally activity. YES it makes sense to recycle and preserve.

But that is the reason alone as to why. Dont be green BECAUSE it will help save us from ourselves. Utter nonsense.

[scott757]

The point is, they've made "Global Warming" the dogma behind environmentally friendly activity.
It went from "Do this, cause its better for the environment"

But when that didnt' work as fast as they wanted it became:
"Do this or your family will float away on top of their house in the next few years"

Most people admire environmentally activity. YES it makes sense to recycle and preserve.

But that is the reason alone as to why. Dont be green BECAUSE it will help save us from ourselves. Utter nonsense.

But you jump in and bring stuff like this up when all we are trying to talk about it how live a little more environmentally friendly. The first people to bring up man-made global warming were the people saying how false it was. Whether you are right or not has no bearing on what we are trying to talk about. In fact they are 2 separate issues. The OP has to with helping the environment. What you are talking about is a political issue...which per the rules...isn't allowed.

[newking70]

i recall the "club of rome" saying we were gonna run out of oil in the 70's what happened? :dunno

[Rich M]

Section10,
With all do respect, how does your experience studying air pollution satellite data make your opinion more valuable that the growing, peer-reviewed scientific consensus that global warming is a strong statistical probability. You seem to be saying, "don't be blind sheep believing these folks, I want you to be blind-sheep believing me." The ideas surrounding much of global warming have been reviewed by a number of organizations like the NAC and NRC (I know, commie kooks, right?), and while finding reasons for criticising some of the methodology of the original paper, they have, by in large, found that the final result has not changed. Who has vetted your ideas? Fox news and some kook with a Mayan calendar website?

I like to think I have an open mind on this and the conservation steps I've taken are mostly economically driven (I saved about $3000 on oil last year), but I've been listening to this anecdotal dribble spewed with vitriolic hate from the anti-global warming camp and wonder how you really believe there is this great conspiracy from the entire main-stream scientific community, but a misinformational campaign supported by the petrolum industry could NEVER happen? I'm sorry, but if I need to decide who to trust you or the NAS, I'm afraid I'll have to stick with the NAS. If you have supportable evidence, that has been peer reviewed, please share it. I would be interested in reading it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hockey_stick_controversy

[amigo30]

I've heard a talk radio guy take a stand.....


And THAT is where a lot of this anti-clean-earth crap is stemming from. They get people worked up, thinking they are being abused, ripped off, mis-informed, etc. It makes people mad..which is exactly what those guys get paid to do.

No matter. If you put smoke in the air, somebody has to breathe it. If you put poison in the water, chances are it will kill something. If you chop down all the trees that clean the air, chances are you'll have dirty air. Our choices affect many other living creatures. If you can't give a crap about that, it's hard not to label you ignorant, egocentric and irresponsible.

[newking70]

And THAT is where a lot of this anti-clean-earth crap is stemming from...

no, it's coming from china and india....but please, i invite you to go to china and protest their pollution policy.

[amigo30]

no, it's coming from china and india....but please, i invite you to go to china and protest their pollution policy.

I was talking about the MENTALITY that we're seeing in this country (and this thread), as opposed to the actual pollution itself.

[MudPies]

Hmm. Nobody named any names until you Srvwannab.

[Rich M]

Heh, I love technicalities....



Oil was made at least 100 years ago
Wood was made at least 100 years ago.









You burn now, you burn now.


Again, it is this type of rhetoric that makes so much of this laughable.



Head up to the Alaska backcountry with your family and thrive there. Fight the bears for food and kill them for warmth. Then that argument might have some creidiblilty.

Actually, if one WERE concerned about carbon in the atmosphere, there is a big difference in burning fossil fuels and burning wood. Carbon in oil was sequestered millions of years ago and is, on the scale of society's existence, a fixed resource (I really don't want to argue how much oil IS left). It also would likely remain in the ground for another million years barring major cataclysmic geological events. Wood, on the other hand, if harvested responsibly, is a renewable resource in the sense that if a large tree cut down, opportunity is provided for other trees to more readily grow. These trees will more quickly trap carbon and build up their trunks for future harvesting. If this is done in a sustainable manner, the equilibrium net carbon emission is zero. If you harvest wood from fallen trees, you can extract the stored energy from it and release about the same amount of carbon as if it were left to decompose. You can think of it as extracting the stored solar energy the trees used to build up it's trunk during it's lifetime.

[BobbyFudge]

The debate about global warming has nothing to do with my desire to live a more conscious lifestyle. I'd rather be wrong about doing something that impacts the world in a positive manner than be wrong about something that destroys it.

My thoughts also.

[Section10]

Section10,
With all do respect, how does your experience studying air pollution satellite data make your opinion more valuable that the growing, peer-reviewed scientific consensus that global warming is a strong statistical probability. You seem to be saying, "don't be blind sheep believing these folks, I want you to be blind-sheep believing me." The ideas surrounding much of global warming have been reviewed by a number of organizations like the NAC and NRC (I know, commie kooks, right?), and while finding reasons for criticising some of the methodology of the original paper, they have, by in large, found that the final result has not changed. Who has vetted your ideas? Fox news and some kook with a Mayan calendar website?

I like to think I have an open mind on this and the conservation steps I've taken are mostly economically driven (I saved about $3000 on oil last year), but I've been listening to this anecdotal dribble spewed with vitriolic hate from the anti-global warming camp and wonder how you really believe there is this great conspiracy from the entire main-stream scientific community, but a misinformational campaign supported by the petrolum industry could NEVER happen? I'm sorry, but if I need to decide who to trust you or the NAS, I'm afraid I'll have to stick with the NAS. If you have supportable evidence, that has been peer reviewed, please share it. I would be interested in reading it.

Don't think of it as a conspiracy then. Think of it as a way to scare people into accepting Green activities by otherwise averting their guilt. If you drive that big truck you're going to make the earth hotter and we'll all die. Not true, but atleast it'll cut down our oil dependency right? See how it works? Who pays NRC & NAC? What does N stand for? I know.....ANOTHER conspiracy, but its really not. Its simple, if an organization that you provide funding for doesn't come out with information that you want, would you still fund them?
US Chamber of commerce however is repeatedly attacked for publishing any material not in favor of global warming advocates. Know why?

Instead of a constant link war between refutes, ask yourself this.
Do you believe that Earth is in a global cooling stage right now as speak? (no, Al Gore, im not talking about winter)
Do you believe mankind can contribute to global warming?
Do you believe Green activities can reduce global warming?
Did you know that 100+ years ago agricultural maps indicate that settlers believed the soil to be too hot to grow anything?
Do you believe people that tell you that these constant Record Lows we're experiencing is apart of of global warming?
Do you understand the natural temperature change cycles of the planet?
Do you believe that the Earth hasn't increased in temperatures since 2002?
Do you understand the Earth's axis role in temperature change?
Do you understand Solar Flares contribution?

I'm not asking if Green is healthy for us or not. I'm asking you on the "Science" of global warming.

But its as they say, for every time they show you why global warming is misunderstood, they come out with a 'new' theory to support it.

Ex.
Earth's axis believed to be role, so THEN they say that global warming can CAUSE the earth's axis to change.
With a rise of temperature, increased Co2 results, THEN they say if we increase our Carbon output it will cause the temperature to rise.
A bridge collapses in the mid-west a few years ago. They just HAVE to relate it to global warming, not to mention the outdated poor constructed bridge.

I hardly want to convince anyone, If I were to convince you now, you'd just be too easy :)

But if you have an open mind like you say, I'd say, keep it more open. But just start observing the behavior of the media and politicians that are coming out with this information and perhaps question some of it. There are a lot more factors in play here than man's doing. You'd be stunned to see how more insignificant we are than we think.

[Timinator]

Section10,
With all do respect, how does your experience studying air pollution satellite data make your opinion more valuable that the growing, peer-reviewed scientific consensus that global warming is a strong statistical probability. You seem to be saying, "don't be blind sheep believing these folks, I want you to be blind-sheep believing me." The ideas surrounding much of global warming have been reviewed by a number of organizations like the NAC and NRC (I know, commie kooks, right?), and while finding reasons for criticising some of the methodology of the original paper, they have, by in large, found that the final result has not changed. Who has vetted your ideas? Fox news and some kook with a Mayan calendar website?

I like to think I have an open mind on this and the conservation steps I've taken are mostly economically driven (I saved about $3000 on oil last year), but I've been listening to this anecdotal dribble spewed with vitriolic hate from the anti-global warming camp and wonder how you really believe there is this great conspiracy from the entire main-stream scientific community, but a misinformational campaign supported by the petrolum industry could NEVER happen? I'm sorry, but if I need to decide who to trust you or the NAS, I'm afraid I'll have to stick with the NAS. If you have supportable evidence, that has been peer reviewed, please share it. I would be interested in reading it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hockey_stick_controversy

I guess this is pointed at me? Believe what you want. I for one have seen what companies do to "provide" the data you pay for or want. This, from a mutually acknowledged understanding of continued contracts which keep all of them gainfully employed. That's why, time and time again I've said to follow the money trail behind who's saying what regarding GW. It's that simple.

As far as conservation is concerned, I'm all for it and practice it. As a family we separate trash, our house is geothermally heated and cooled, we drive cars (daily drivers) that get 25mpg around town and 31 on the highway. Our entire property is watered by reclaimed water from our 3 acre pond and our family in whole only uses about 2000 gallons of fresh water every 24 days. Some lights that are on a bunch are the new types, but when I want to see what I'm doing, I have an incandescent. We grow a variety of vegetables and herbs and we buy in bulk and freeze. Our toliets are low volume as is our washing machine. I guarantee my carbon footprint on this earth is much less than Al Gores and I guarantee you I have a better understanding of resource management and GW than he ever will, including wind, solar, geothermal and nuclear. BTW, I've also worked in every nuclear plant in the United States and developed what is still the only NRC certified testing proceedure for measureing the insitu water flow of their main and emergency cooling water pumps and systems.

So if you think what I'm saying is "anecdotal dribble spewed with vitriolic hate from the anti-global warming camp" exactly what do you bring to the table to enlighten me? What you've read? You say you have an "open mind" but my 20 years of experience in this exact field gathering and interpreting the exact data we're talking about is obviously a lie except for being retired for 10 years and I'm only 51. Stupid me. Remember, follow the money. Do you get it yet?

Also, I didn't ever study "air pollution satellite data". Is that what understood from what I wrote?

[Rich M]

I guess this is pointed at me? Believe what you want. I for one have seen what companies do to "provide" the data you pay for or want. This, from a mutually acknowledged understanding of continued contracts which keep all of them gainfully employed. That's why, time and time again I've said to follow the money trail behind who's saying what regarding GW. It's that simple.

As far as conservation is concerned, I'm all for it and practice it. As a family we separate trash, our house is geothermally heated and cooled, we drive cars (daily drivers) that get 25mpg around town and 31 on the highway. Our entire property is watered by reclaimed water from our 3 acre pond and our family in whole only uses about 2000 gallons of fresh water every 24 days. Some lights that are on a bunch are the new types, but when I want to see what I'm doing, I have an incandescent. We grow a variety of vegetables and herbs and we buy in bulk and freeze. Our toliets are low volume as is our washing machine. I guarantee my carbon footprint on this earth is much less than Al Gores and I guarantee you I have a better understanding of resource management and GW than he ever will, including wind, solar, geothermal and nuclear. BTW, I've also worked in every nuclear plant in the United States and developed what is still the only NRC certified testing proceedure for measureing the insitu water flow of their main and emergency cooling water pumps and systems.

So if you think what I'm saying is "anecdotal dribble spewed with vitriolic hate from the anti-global warming camp" exactly what do you bring to the table to enlighten me? What you've read? You say you have an "open mind" but my 20 years of experience in this exact field gathering and interpreting the exact data we're talking about is obviously a lie except for being retired for 10 years and I'm only 51. Stupid me. Remember, follow the money. Do you get it yet?

Also, I didn't ever study "air pollution satellite data". Is that what understood from what I wrote?

My post wasn't directed specifically at you. But while you're here...

Me, I never claimed to be an expert, but I'd hardly think your qualifications in testing nuc plant plumbing would make you ANY better qualified. The fact that you bring it up like it should be is kind of strange. Especially in light of your earlier contention:

No, being an atmospheric scientist I do, in fact, have the facts. Worked on one part or another of most every study conducted which took the data used to "Predict" Global Warming. Even worked on the studies that collected all the ground truth data used to make sure the models were predicting the correct values. Also helped work and design the models! That enough FACT for you? Now listen up and I'll tell you a secret....It's all CRAP. It's a LIE, don't BELIEVE it and quit spreading it. Look at what the people do not what they say. All of them."

So when you're not doing atmospheric modeling you work on nuc plant cooling systems? Busy guy.:roll

Both you guys again going on with how you know more about this than everyone else and doing the nonspecific paranoid conspiracy theories. Sorry, I can really lay any credence to what you contend.

I commend you on your conservation efforts, though. :o

[jaydub69]

I must hand it to you guys. I crapped out from this two pages ago.
But before I unsubscribe, I feel I should finally add that perhaps the error of our ways is not contingent on our beliefs, but rather how deeply we cling to them.

-john

[Rich M]

I'm getting there, LOL.

[greggorypeccary]

So if you think what I'm saying is "anecdotal dribble spewed with vitriolic hate from the anti-global warming camp" exactly what do you bring to the table to enlighten me? What you've read? You say you have an "open mind" but my 20 years of experience in this exact field gathering and interpreting the exact data we're talking about is obviously a lie except for being retired for 10 years and I'm only 51. Stupid me. Remember, follow the money. Do you get it yet?

Also, I didn't ever study "air pollution satellite data". Is that what understood from what I wrote?

So are you doing anything professionally to set the scientific establishment straight, or just exposing the "conspiracy" on musician forums?

[Section10]

As for Greener influences in the guitar world.....


I LOVE bamboo, which is strong and much more renewable. My classical guitars are brazilian rosewood and African Blackwood, usually $1000 upcharge but they at least contribute tonally not just aesthetically. If bamboo has the same properties or qualities as these tonewoods i'd love to see it incorporated.
Otherwise i'm seriously considering buying land in Honduras to raise rosewood trees. The small % of fine woods used in guitar making is minimal and I wish luthiers got together on this one. Deforestation is real, and yet we hear a LOT less about that than we do "global warming" which of course now being referred to as "Climate change" since the evidence of global cooling is now making its way through the public.

Greggorypeccary

Lets say this whole GW is a myth is true.....What would procedure be for advocating the truth about it? I mean this seriously, do you just walk up to a mic and tell people? The evidence is out there, but apparently it doesnt just spread itself. I believe that by creating a dialog about this anywhere is more effective than anything else. It can at least get people thinking.

[Timinator]

On FX right now there's a great Documentary on GW called "The Day After Tomorrow". I'm learning so much I didn't know. I had no idea!

Yep, dye dilution based flow testing. Tested almost every power plant in the United States over 500 megawatts and every nuclear plant (some several times). Was Red badged by the NRC and had complete access to "almost" anyplace in any nuclear plant in the US without being escorted. Trust me, that's a background check you don't want have done. And no, testing the "plumbing" in nuc plants doesn't make me an expert on GW. But designing, testing and getting our method accepted by the NRC does make me real scientist. And yes, I was a busy guy. I believe you get out of life what you put into it. Nothing in, nothing out.

I don't know more than anyone else but I do know enough not to believe the outcome of select bit's and pieces of data, especially when I took some of it and especially when the person presenting it has a financial interest in his observations. If that's enough to changed your mind fine, but it's not enough to change mine.

I won't name names but I've worked with and for the guys that are basically running NOAA right now. They are the best there is and they have access to not only ALL the data, but the BEST data there is. If GW was true I'd know it, but I still wouldn't believe it if it came from some of them!

[Timinator]

So are you doing anything professionally to set the scientific establishment straight, or just exposing the "conspiracy" on musician forums?

Honestly, I'd rather be talking about old Fender amps. But once in a while a good GW debate is fun. Did I mention I think Vibrolux's are one of the best sounding amps ever made?

There is very little real science being done anymore, especially when the government has ANYTHING to do with it. It's 60% administration/accounting, 30% agenda and 10% science.

[phoenix 7]

There is very little real science being done anymore, especially when the government has ANYTHING to do with it. It's 60% administration/accounting, 30% agenda and 10% science.

You make it sound like the thousands of climate scientists in the USA who support the theory of anthropogenic climate change are a bunch of fakers doing half-assed science, just trying to prove their boss's theory for a paycheck. (Of course, this doesn't explain the many scientists around the world who also support the theory.) The USA arguably has the best scientists in the world, yet for some reason, all of our climate scientists (at least the ones who espouse anthropogenic climate change) are a bunch of lame-o's. "Real science," you suggest, was practiced in the days of yore.

Frankly, that sounds to me like a very unrealistic blanket statement. I suspect the real story is more complex.

[Section10]

You make it sound like the thousands of climate scientists in the USA who support the theory of anthropogenic climate change are a bunch of fakers doing half-assed science, just trying to prove their boss's theory for a paycheck. (Of course, this doesn't explain the many scientists around the world who also support the theory.) The USA arguably has the best scientists in the world, yet for some reason, all of our climate scientists (at least the ones who espouse anthropogenic climate change) are a bunch of lame-o's. "Real science," you suggest, was practiced in the days of yore.

Frankly, that sounds to me like a very unrealistic blanket statement. I suspect the real story is more complex.

Heres one you'll love...

"A new poll among 3,146 earth scientists found that 90 percent believe global warming is real, while 82 percent agree that human activity been a significant factor in changing mean global temperatures. "

any catch to that? well..i remember the old days of psychological assessment and testing, at least the times I didn't snooze.

The authors contacted 10,200 scientists listed in the 2007 edition of the American Geological Institute's Directory of Geoscience Departments and received 3,146 responses.

hah I would call that invalid since the ones inclined to respond are global warming advocates. But some pollsters just want good results not validity. There used to be a time where when your test results didn't have significance you would fail, but not so much anymore :(

[mcdonaldkd]

I do what I can to enlarge my carbon footprint.

[Rich M]

hah I would call that invalid since the ones inclined to respond are global warming advocates. But some pollsters just want good results not validity. There used to be a time where when your test results didn't have significance you would fail, but not so much anymore :(




So if they had contacted YOU, you wouldn't have responded. Give me a break. :nuts

[Scott Miller]

"But just start observing the behavior of the media and politicians that are coming out with this information and perhaps question some of it."

That's a good thing to do. Figure out who all the players are; the media, the oil companies, the politicians, the talk-radio guys, the scientists, the dudes in Rome, and the various agendas and ways to make money. Then if you apply some logic, it's pretty clear that man-made global warming is most likely a fact.

[michael.e]

"most likely a fact."

Good one...

[smiert spionam]

Heres one you'll love...

"A new poll among 3,146 earth scientists found that 90 percent believe global warming is real, while 82 percent agree that human activity been a significant factor in changing mean global temperatures. "

any catch to that? well..i remember the old days of psychological assessment and testing, at least the times I didn't snooze.

The authors contacted 10,200 scientists listed in the 2007 edition of the American Geological Institute's Directory of Geoscience Departments and received 3,146 responses.

hah I would call that invalid since the ones inclined to respond are global warming advocates. But some pollsters just want good results not validity. There used to be a time where when your test results didn't have significance you would fail, but not so much anymore :(



A 30.8% response rate is quite high, and your premise about motivation to respond could easily be just as powerful with deniers. Without knowing more about the survey methodology, your "hah" doesn't mean much.

[majorledhead]

I've been using CFL bulbs, reusable grocery bags, a programable thermostat and making sun tea instaed of buying tea in 16oz plastic bottles. On another note : its been 65 degrees and sunny for the past week in western Pa. and I'm kinda liking this global warming.

[Scott Miller]

"most likely a fact."
Good one...

Heh heh. The way I look at it, everything is up for grabs. The sun will rise tomorrow morning... most likely a fact.

[Section10]

A 30.8% response rate is quite high, and your premise about motivation to respond could easily be just as powerful with deniers. Without knowing more about the survey methodology, your "hah" doesn't mean much.


No, sir, 30% is NOT good. hah.

Global Warming has become a quite a discriminative stimulus, you say those words and ears will pop up. But no, on certain subjects you've gotta get atleast 80% for a decent significance level. 30% doesnt cut it.

This was a huge deal in an experiment back in the '80s when a women's survey was sent out about abortion, i believe. Where did they get the list? From subscribers of a woman's magazine. They had to dismiss the study because the women who subscribed to the magazine weren't not AVERAGE women. Women's magazines tend to be biased towards the opinion of women.

Climatologists who actually take the time to respond to some unknown survey about global warming HAVE to be inspired to respond. As for climatologists, most of them dont specifically have expertise in the 'climate change' field so they wouldnt be qualified to answer anyway. Most likely the majority of respondents don't have experience with it, which is why the study is invalid. Being a climatologist is not enough.

[Section10]

Heh heh. The way I look at it, everything is up for grabs. The sun will rise tomorrow morning... most likely a fact.


a certain David Hume would beg to differ! certainly an empiricist he was

[phoenix 7]

Heres one you'll love...

"A new poll among 3,146 earth scientists found that 90 percent believe global warming is real, while 82 percent agree that human activity been a significant factor in changing mean global temperatures. "

any catch to that? well..i remember the old days of psychological assessment and testing, at least the times I didn't snooze.

The authors contacted 10,200 scientists listed in the 2007 edition of the American Geological Institute's Directory of Geoscience Departments and received 3,146 responses.

hah I would call that invalid since the ones inclined to respond are global warming advocates.



It's not clear why you would conclude that. Wouldn't the members of Geoscience departments who AREN'T global warming advocates want to respond to the poll so that their views would be represented?

[Rich M]

Can we cut the cr@p?

The survey, conducted among researchers listed in the American Geological Institute's Directory of Geoscience Departments*, "found that climatologists who are active in research showed the strongest consensus on the causes of global warming, with 97 percent agreeing humans play a role". The biggest doubters were petroleum geologists (47 percent) and meteorologists (64 percent). A recent poll suggests that 58 percent of Americans believe that human activity contributes to climate change. http://news.mongabay.com/2009/0122-climate.html
http://esciencenews.com/articles/2009/01/19/survey.scientists.agree.human.induced.global.warmi ng.real

The other 7054 were probably out playing with rocks. If this is your logic for there being a scientific establishment conspiracy, I'm afraid your going to have to leave on the mother ship without me.

[Section10]

It's not clear why you would conclude that. Wouldn't the members of Geoscience departments who AREN'T global warming advocates want to respond to the poll so that their views would be represented?

no cause there are more passionate Global Warming advocates. Surveys are irrelevant to most people, check the last time you received a survey in the mail that you responded to. The ones that DO respond are the ones trying to promote the 'science' of it. Its therefore considered invalid, or non-sufficient by assessment standards. Trust me on this. If you want to debate GW then go ahead but these wimpy surveys only have one purpose, to convince you that the majority of the people believe in it.
Think about it, why would anyone take the effort of publishing a survey that claims 97% of them believe it?

If another survey comes out claiming only 27% percent of all scientists believe in Global Warming, who would you think published it?

[phoenix 7]

If another survey comes out claiming only 27% percent of all scientists believe in Global Warming, who would you think published it?

Bozo the Clown Surveys, Inc.

[Rich M]

http://tigger.uic.edu/~pdoran/012009_Doran_final.pdf (http://tigger.uic.edu/%7Epdoran/012009_Doran_final.pdf)

With 3146 individuals completing the survey, the participant response rate for the survey was 30.7%. This is a typical response
rate for Web-based surveys [Cook et al., 2000; Kaplowitz et al., 2004].

I guess Cook and Kaplowitz must be part of the conspiracy :huh

[Scott Miller]

Some surveys are at least good for comic relief. I like the Spice Girls angle on this one:

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bay_environment/blog/2008/02/19000_scientists_doubt_warming.html

[Timinator]

I don't believe there has never been an accurate global temperature study conducted over a long enough period of time gathering accurate, credible data to be able to show any global climate change either up or down. Having worked in the field setting up calibrating, auditing and providing data analysis of every type of temperature thermister and transducer there is, I don't know who provided the government with long term data accurate enough to show that small of change over the earths temperature. I don't think, even today, there are any sensors deployed anywhere on a large enough scale that can stay accurate enough out in the field over months at a time without at least a weekly calibration. To the best of my knowledge there isn't one study currently being conducted at that level anywhere on earth. Having been one of three people who audited the largest meteorological study in the United States and seeing first hand the calibration drift associated with these temperature sensors, I can't see how any of that data could be used.

I would also say that there are less than 10 scientists in the world that are qualified enough to be real "climate change" specialists. It's way too new a term/field of study for anybody to know enough yet to be a specialist in that field. They may be the "best there is" at this time, but that doesn't make them an infallible expert in that field of study. And no, I'm not one of them nor do I try to be on TGP. I just know that a data set can be manipulated in many ways to fulfill a contract and keep getting new ones.

[smiert spionam]

Sounds like you need to take all that knowledge, park yourself in a witness chair, and start truthifying before Congress. Or for that matter, Fox News. I'm sure they'd buy it.

Otherwise, I'll listen to the vast majority of credentialed scientists who disagree.

[Timinator]

I give up. You win. Credentialed scientists must be right because they have an opinon. They haven't done or contributed to ANY of the science, or reviewed the data sets or run any of the numbers themselves, but they have............credentials. I'm done here.

[smiert spionam]

As I said, go public -- this is blockbuster whistleblower material. It deserves to be heard... and substantiated.

If it's between believing thousands of (yes, credentialed) scientists whose careers depend on the legitimacy of their scholarship or a guy on the internet who claims to have information that blows apart the foundations of climate change science, guess who wins?

[pickaguitar]

I just can't understand why anyone would not want to take care of our planet...doesn't mean so much to some unfortunately

[scott757]

I tried to stop it but...Thread officially hijacked.

[smiert spionam]

Back on topic, here's a small thing that I've done for the past couple of years:

Install a clothesline. I'm in central TX, so it's usable virtually year-round, which won't work for everyone. It's amazing how well it works -- often dries *faster* than a conventional dryer, and it doesn't have to be particularly warm, either. We now only use the regular dryer to fluff things up for a few minutes after they come off the line.

[GovernorSilver]

Back on topic, here's a small thing that I've done for the past couple of years:

Install a clothesline. I'm in central TX, so it's usable virtually year-round, which won't work for everyone. It's amazing how well it works -- often dries *faster* than a conventional dryer, and it doesn't have to be particularly warm, either. We now only use the regular dryer to fluff things up for a few minutes after they come off the line.

I was using a long piece of twine that we got from Ikea's free twine dispenser. Worked great until it finally broke.

I'll install a proper clothes line in the spring.

Cutting down dryer usage would definitely cut my electricity bill even more. It's pretty low now because we rarely use the air conditioner, use CFLs, etc.

I stay out of the climate change debate. My main motivation for "going green" is to, well, save some green (dollar bills), and reduce exposure to toxic substances such as non-green household cleaning products.

[Rich M]

The climate change debate is over. Some just haven't realized it yet.

[Section10]

http://tigger.uic.edu/~pdoran/012009_Doran_final.pdf (http://tigger.uic.edu/%7Epdoran/012009_Doran_final.pdf)



I guess Cook and Kaplowitz must be part of the conspiracy :huh


Well I guess some people would care to know that this wonderful little Web-based survey of 10000 with only 30 % response might want to know this little gem of a fact.


Approximately 5% of the respondents were climate scientists, and 8.5% of the respondents indicated that more than 50% of their peer-reviewed publications in the past 5 years have been on the subject of climate change.

How's that significance sound to you now?

Like I said, Web-based surveys tend to lean inaccurate especially when they DONT GET TO CONTROL WHO RESPONDS. 10,000 scientists only 3,000 reply, we don't even know who they originally sent it to, what kind of scientist?

Thats my point, these surveys are a joke to mislead. I show it to you, you were mislead and defended them, and will still. Out of those 3,000 only 5% might even know what climate change even means. But that didn't stop them from answering.

EVERYBODY wants to take care of the planet. Some of the people refuse to do so on the basis of phony science being spread around based on faulty misunderstandings of the how climate works and would rather ignore crap surveys that have 0 significance. Some however believe to use fear to invoke good behavior on the basis that if we don't Green up, we'll all die from rising sea levels and the non-endangered polar bears which are increasing in numbers will become extinct. I guess its a sad world either way. Either we're causing our own demise or we're just spreading mass lies to appease the environmentalists......

[Section10]

or as the the founder of Weather Channel John Coleman responded to your religion.....
"... I've been studying it," Coleman said of global warming, "reading stuff, and looking at it, and can't figure out what the heck they're talking about." Coleman said the media hype surrounding climate change is all aimed at scaring people and drumming up ratings, and has no scientific basis. "Have temperatures gone up? No. Is global warming sweeping the planet? No. Is the ice melting at the poles? No," Coleman said.
Needless to say, Coleman didn't have very nice things to say about the Nobel Peace Prize-winning Al Gore, whom he has proposed suing for fraud.


Eventually you'll wonder why everybody who isn't benefitting from massive profits on the work based on global warming doesnt believe in it. You might even wonder why people of power do believe in it when they happen to be profiting from it....
You don't have to, i'm just offering a suggestion because you seem to so open minded...

[pickaguitar]

3 - 2 - 1

Gonna have an open section soon? ;)

[andrekp]

You must be in the same crowd that uses sandpaper instead of toilet paper; I guess thats your bag. I prefer Chiffon.

In all the mocking of the GW advocates, I think we all glossed over a great idea here: We should all be using Chiffon as toilet paper! Think of the confort of using that soft drapy fabric on our tender deriers... Think of all the jobs making bolts of chiffon such a strategy would create! And I'm betting we could raid our local thrift stores and Salvation Army and find enough really cheap chiffon to meet our bathroom needs for quite some time.

Better yet, since it's a fabric, you could wash it to make it fully reusable (delicate cycle, cold water and a light drying). Avoid the type you have to dry clean.

Really Sheryl Crow was way off base a couple of years back recommending using only one square of Charmin with each bathroom visit. Obviously, she had not yet been turned on to the luxery and green-ness of using chiffon.

So stop mocking the global warming people, there are probably a lot of great ideas we are just glossing over in our zeal.

[Section10]

I tried Sheryl Crow's suggestion, using only one square. Cant wait for us to meet and shake your hand.

I also learned from the wise Dave Matthews and unloaded my tour bus' sewage right over a river, ahhh nevermind that tour boat passing underneath. It'll teach those infants a lesson about life.

Lets talk about renewable wood sources or regrowing Brazilian Rosewood. Theres something i'll be passionate about.

[smiert spionam]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/01/02/article-1104294-0013A6A100000258-184_468x286.jpg

[Rich M]

Well I guess some people would care to know that this wonderful little Web-based survey of 10000 with only 30 % response might want to know this little gem of a fact.


Approximately 5% of the respondents were climate scientists, and 8.5% of the respondents indicated that more than 50% of their peer-reviewed publications in the past 5 years have been on the subject of climate change.

How's that significance sound to you now?

.

Could you please reply references for your claims?

[BobbyFudge]

Getting back to to the OP.....I painted my roof white this summer...saved about 200.00 in energy costs.

[Scott Auld]

or as the the founder of Weather Channel John Coleman responded to your religion....."... I've been studying it," Coleman said of global warming, "reading stuff, and looking at it, and can't figure out what the heck they're talking about."Coleman said the media hype surrounding climate change is all aimed at scaring people and drumming up ratings, and has no scientific basis. "Have temperatures gone up? No. Is global warming sweeping the planet? No. Is the ice melting at the poles? No," Coleman said.
Needless to say, Coleman didn't have very nice things to say about the Nobel Peace Prize-winning Al Gore, whom he has proposed suing for fraud.


Eventually you'll wonder why everybody who isn't benefitting from massive profits on the work based on global warming doesnt believe in it. You might even wonder why people of power do believe in it when they happen to be profiting from it....
You don't have to, i'm just offering a suggestion because you seem to so open minded...


Hello & welcome to TGP.

We often see new members skirting the rules re: politics or religion. I see that you joined very recently. So here's a freebie:

Please be sure you have read our TOS (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/faq.php) (so many people sign up and click ACCEPT without reading them!) and be sure you stay within our rules against Political and Religious topics.

Enjoy your stay at TGP, and again, welcome.

[Section10]

Hello & welcome to TGP.

We often see new members skirting the rules re: politics or religion. I see that you joined very recently. So here's a freebie:

Please be sure you have read our TOS (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/faq.php) (so many people sign up and click ACCEPT without reading them!) and be sure you stay within our rules against Political and Religious topics.

Enjoy your stay at TGP, and again, welcome.


I know, thats quite enough from me, wheres that spanking emoticon when I need it.
I will refrain, but i'm still wondering if this is counting as a political or religious post.............:messedup
I have new gear to talk about anyway. I shouldve never ventured into the pub!

RichM no more from me, but that was from the report ITSELF. Find the report and check, usually at the bottom. Cheers.

[smiert spionam]

Hey, here's another one:

Rain barrels.

Even if you don't catch water off your roof (amazingly efficient), they're also great for capturing AC discharge. In the summer, the central air for my 1200 sf. house will fill a 55 gal barrel in less than a week. Even if you're not concerned about conservation, a couple of barrels of distilled water is good to have on hand in case of zombie attacks.

[GovernorSilver]

Lets talk about renewable wood sources or regrowing Brazilian Rosewood. Theres something i'll be passionate about.

I'm not in position to invest in this myself (all of these investments require an 8 year wait before you start receiving dividend payments - I have a major purchase that I want done before that), but this might be worth a look:

http://www.plantingempowerment.com/

I'll definitely sign up at some point, so when I retire I have some extra cash from this type of investment and a destination to visit (the patch of trees in Panama that I would have leased).

[cram]

The environment is not here to be saved. It's here to be maintained. If you disagree, try to define "saved" - does one get to a point in an area where they can whipe their hands and declare - "we have won!!!"

:)

I've lived my life as a conserverative consumer by my father's example. This helped me easily come up with ideas during college. I ran our recycling program at the university and organized all the earthday crap/festival stuff. I learned a lot. I've also help put programs together at 2 companies I've worked with. This was well outside of my duties at the company, but something I took on and it worked well.

Conserving my own habits are *not* done mostly for the environment - it's for my wallet and my resources. There should always be a balance and large scale patterns (in business especially) are the most effective. Saving on gas as an individual pales (by orders of magnitude) when compared to doing the same for a fleet of vehicles.

And again - the driver should be financial incentive for the person or company. THIS is what gets the most result from my experience. If you can spell out a savings or an investment (that [save/invest] is an important distinction) to yourself or a company, you have a winning pattern and formula to maintain whatever it is you're doing.

If you're transitioning to a new device in the home, or a new vehicle for yourself, try to chart out what will happen in real terms when you do. What will happen to the old product - will it be reused as it's still functional, which has value in the market? Will your new unit rely on another energy source (like electricity) which will be more expensive in the coming years? This is an important thing to consider.

[cram]

Hey, here's another one:

Rain barrels.

Even if you don't catch water off your roof (amazingly efficient), they're also great for capturing AC discharge. In the summer, the central air for my 1200 sf. house will fill a 55 gal barrel in less than a week. Even if you're not concerned about conservation, a couple of barrels of distilled water is good to have on hand in case of zombie attacks.

Both route to my wifeywife's flower garden through the gutter system. We have more water in NH than we know what to do with so, the benefit is marginal.

But it saves me from waterting it from the well in most of the season. Wait, did I say it was her garden - yeah... who does the weeding?? hmmm.

[loudboy]

Really Sheryl Crow was way off base a couple of years back recommending using only one square of Charmin with each bathroom visit.

That whole thing was a fabrication. You can Google it.

[MudPies]

Shhh. Let people believe things they heard ones years ago without any info to back it up.

[loudboy]

I just can't understand why anyone would not want to take care of our planet...doesn't mean so much to some unfortunately

Pretty simple, actually.

As soon as it gets in the way of making money.

The more money at stake, the more resistance you'll get.

If a company can make more money be "going Green" or in actuality being perceived as "going Green," they'll do it.

[gregc]

Follow the $ ......... right into Algore's green pocket!

[Alastorbr]

Recently I have become much more aware of the human race's impact on the planet and I've been trying to live a " greener " lifestyle ... Do any TGP'ers here use green products or strive to keep the planet cleaner and more toxin free for future generations ??? Let's discuss being " GREEN " !!! :wave


For every plastic bottle and bag you don't use, I'm going to use five. Now, I'm going to go eat a huge steak, pick up chicks in a huge truck, and play a guitar solo while boxing a kangaroo.

[stratman34]

That whole thing was a fabrication. You can Google it.


True or not, I still think of her every time I go potty. :messedup

[Section10]

"Now, I don't want to rob any law-abiding American of his or her God-given rights, but I think we are an industrious enough people that we can make it work with only one square per restroom visit, except, of course, on those pesky occasions where 2 to 3 could be required," she wrote.


Later she claims it was a joke.

Rosie didn't like this

"One square! Has she seen my a**?" exclaimed Rosie.

[johnny q]

TGP has a strict "no religion" policy here.

A "no secular religion policy"....let's be specific.:)

[loudboy]

Follow the $ ......... right into Algore's green pocket!

Here's a question:

Who's making more in one day than AG will make in his lifetime, and has a bigger stake in the outcome?

[Timinator]

I thought of this magazine and decided to post it here for those of you interested in learning more about home based wind, micro-hydro and solar. You can really learn what can and can't be done with with alternative energy and the actual costs of installing and maintaining systems. Great guys and great articles too. www.homepower.com (http://www.homepower.com)

[JGV]

This recent video presents some excellent information regarding manmade global warming. If you believe in this stuff, you might not be so inclined to after watching it. If you are not prepared to have global warming shredded to pieces in front of you, I'd advise against viewing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zOXmJ4jd-8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stij8sUybx0&feature=player_embedded)

One of the best parts of this video is toward the end where the presenter explains his belief of why/how global warming is being used to influence people.

Ultimately you will believe what you want to believe.

[BobbyFudge]

This recent video presents some excellent information regarding manmade global warming. If you believe in this stuff, you might not be so inclined to after watching it. If you are not prepared to have global warming shredded to pieces in front of you, I'd advise against viewing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stij8sUybx0&feature=player_embedded

One of the best parts of this video is toward the end where the presenter explains his belief of why/how global warming is being used to influence people.

One would be wise to do a little research on "Lord Monckton"
:messedup

[Shamus]

Topics like this expose the "moronic underbelly" of the TGP.. I'm amazed at the depth of stupidity in so many 'hater' responses...

1. Spend some real time camping, hiking, visiting third world countries w/ devasted natural resources.

2. Go to your hometown and see what's changed for better and for worse since you were a kid.

3. Understand that every individual has a resposibility - stewardship is YOUR gift to the future of humanity.

In this super-sized, feed me NOW, entertain me NOW, TV 24/7 society that's become the norm, people have become alarmingly disconnected from the genius/beauty of nature. The most precious commodity is the blue globe we live upon.

Today's not important - tomorrow and the next several hundred thousand years are.

1. Recycle
2. Connect with your bit of nature - the woods out back, the park around the corner, the river in the next county.
3. Take pride in stewardship.

My father insisted that we (my siblings) grow up in a family that valued preservation. He encouraged me to spend a month on a NOLS trip in the Wyoming Little Bighorn range. Our family camped up and down the Appalachian Mts. We learned for ourselves how important the environment really is, in the great scheme of human history.

Commit to making small contributions to the human race, every day.

[phoenix 7]

This recent video presents some excellent information regarding manmade global warming. If you believe in this stuff, you might not be so inclined to after watching it. If you are not prepared to have global warming shredded to pieces in front of you, I'd advise against viewing...

Thanks for the link. I think it's worth noting that the person giving this lecture, Lord Christopher Monckton, has no formal education in science whatsoever -- none. His degrees are in Classics and in Journalism. I'm sure he has something interesting to say (I'm listening to his lecture now), but I think it would be foolish to take this lecture as the final word on the question of global warming.

I have to say, based on what I've heard so far, that he sounds like a demogogue. He does endless clownish impressions of Al Gore's accent, he accuses the IPPC's study, which was done by thousands of the most respected climate scientists from all over the world, as being "lies" (quite the conspiracy theory), etc. In fact he says that the IPCC scientists are "dim as well as dishonest." He strikes me as about as much an authority on climate change as the Daily Show's Jon Stewart is on international affairs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Monckton,_3rd_Viscount_Monckton_of_Bre nchley

[MudPies]

So that's kind of like asking your Physical Therapist for advice on dressing your Strat's frets?

[JGV]

The person giving this lecture, Lord Christopher Monckton, has no formal education in science -- none. His degrees are in Classics and in Journalism. I'm sure he has something interesting to say (I'm listening to his lecture now), but I think it would be unwise, to say the least, to take this lecture as the final word on the question on global warming.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Monckton,_3rd_Viscount_Monckton_of_Bre nchley
Indeed. Everyone should form their own opinion, even Monckton says this at the beginning of his address.

Given the evidence, I believe he is correct. Others will undoubtedly disagree. The information is there for those that want to see it and form their own opinion. Nothing more.

BTW, here is a version of the same presentation with the slides he is referring to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zOXmJ4jd-8

[BobboVisMe]

[QUOTE=cram;7123955]The environment is not here to be saved. It's here to be maintained. If you disagree, try to define "saved" - does one get to a point in an area where they can whipe their hands and declare - "we have won!!!"

:)



QUOTE]


I disagree with your terminology !!! The way humanity is attacking the environment it needs saving not maintaining !!!

[Doug H]

I look at it this way, I get so much "green" BS shoved down my throat that I don't have a choice. I think I'll burn a pile of car batteries this weekend.

Hey, I'm burning some tires in my front yard this weekend. Wanna come over? Bring your batteries with you, the more the merrier!

For the OP: I look at it this way- "We're all doing what we can", brother...

We've been using recycling bins for as long as I can remember. We use canvas shopping bags, what's the point in filling landfills with paper or plastic. I don't dump chemicals in the ground, and our sanitation service picks that kind of stuff up.

OTOH I don't use CFL's and never intend on driving a hybrid car (in their present form anyway). Most of the "green" stuff is a marketing campaign, as ACfixer mentioned. Conservation is a good practice I've followed all my life. But trying to "save the earth" or sidestep some impending energy crisis through "living green" or whatever it's called this week is as effective as a fan in a hurricane. The only way those problems will be solved will be by developing new forms of energy. Period. End of story. Otherwise you're just farting in the wind.

[jaydub69]

The person giving this lecture, Lord Christopher Monckton, has no formal education in science -- none. His degrees are in Classics and in Journalism. I'm sure he has something interesting to say (I'm listening to his lecture now), but I think it would be foolish to take this lecture as the final word on the question on global warming. He has no science credentials whatsoever.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Monckton,_3rd_Viscount_Monckton_of_Bre nchley

I make NO claims on the issue of GW as I've written 3 or 4 pages ago (wow), but in the issue of fairness, this program (Lord Monckton) is a debate. Debates are often won and lost by wording, charisma and wit. Much in the same way this thread is being constructed. Though I would second guess that in many of the posts. Let's leave the science to the scientists. Besides our understanding of the present seems difficult to ascertain with myopic points of view.

Perhaps we debaters can find common ground. I'll start:
I like to hike, mountain bike, drink clean water and breathe clean air.
Anyone against this?

[andrekp]

(edited)
...
3. Understand that every individual has a resposibility - stewardship is YOUR gift to the future of humanity.
...
Today's not important - tomorrow and the next several hundred thousand years are.
...
Commit to making small contributions to the human race, every day.

See, this is what's moronic about the whole argument. It's not really about "nature" or the Earth at all. It's about US. It's about keeping a world for human beings to live in. It's just couched in nature-speak to distract the weak minded from the selfishness of the whole deal.

We could wreck the planet to the point that human life can't survive. Will that end life on Earth? No. It will go on and re-fill the Earth in time, just as it has every time huge chunks of life has been destroyed in the past. We can't wipe out life on Earth. Even if we set off all our nukes and irradiated the bejesus out of the place, some life would survive and thrive in the new world.

In fact, one could make the argument that there is a host of new life that would evolve, were it not for our presence.

The environmentalist movement is about selfishly making sure that WE remain on this planet and in charge. Nothing else. the really insidious thing is expecting that humans of today conform to some imposed standard of life for the sake of future humans. Not only does this extend our arrogance into the future, but it says that somehow these lives, not our, are the important ones.

And ultimately, the environmentalist movement is about power: The power for one group of people to tell another group of people how they should live, how they should think, how they should act, and what they should believe. As in all such movements, the trick is to be on the winning side, everybody else gets screwed.

[phoenix 7]

Listening to Monckton's lecture. The wikipedia bio states that he claims to be "a peer of the House of Lords" (he calls himself "Lord Monckton"), but that he's not. He tried to get elected to the House of Lords, but he didn't receive one vote. He's never been a member of the House of Lords or the House of Commons. He also claims, bizarrely, during this lecture to have received a Nobel Prize. He's allegedly told some other major whoppers over the years too. Check it out:

http://canadiancynic.blogspot.com/2007/12/i-could-do-this-all-day.html

[jaydub69]

Hey, I'm burning some tires in my front yard this weekend. Wanna come over? Bring your batteries with you, the more the merrier!
I realize this may be facetious, but when you sacrifice your beliefs by reacting to your surroundings, you have lost.

The only way those problems will be solved will be by developing new forms of energy. Period. End of story. Otherwise you're just farting in the wind.
Ancient proverb say, "It better one person fart in the wind than two people fart under the covers."

-john

[phoenix 7]

Indeed. Everyone should form their own opinion, even Monckton says this at the beginning of his address.

Given the evidence, I believe he is correct. Others will undoubtedly disagree. The information is there for those that want to see it and form their own opinion. Nothing more.

I'm not sure he's even honest about the evidence he's giving as he seems to have a track record of lying. Check out the links I've posted above.