Using a Booster as a "Buffer"

[ToneRanger72]

I had always heard that buffers and fuzz didn’t work well together, but I finally got a chance to experiment and have come to the conclusion that the buffer in my Bad Horsie Wah was the reason I could never get my Plum Crazy Fuzzy Lady (or ANY fuzz for that matter) to sound right.
So I’m looking at putting the Horsie in a loop box to get it out of the signal path when not in use, but now without a buffers early on that leaves me the potential for tone loss with all the pedals I go through before I hit my first buffered pedal.
So here’s my question – would putting my Creation Audio MK 4.23 early in the chain with just a very slight boost accomplish a similar effect as a buffer? I know it would not be the same as the signal would not be converted from high to low impedance, but would it work in terms of adding/retaining strength to the signal?

[TooManyHobbies]

Firstly, it would convert impedance for you and serve as a perfect buffer without having to go above dead bottom on the knob. I use mine at the end of my chain before my amp splitter. Blew away other buffers I've tried including the Boost N Buff even at 24 volts. Sounds good after all my pedals seemingly, fuzz included. It will retain your signal, highs, dynamics, etc.

[eyeball987]

I use a MXR Mircro Amp for his. How does this differ from the MK 4.23?

[ToneRanger72]

Firstly, it would convert impedance for you and serve as a perfect buffer without having to go above dead bottom on the knob. I use mine at the end of my chain before my amp splitter. Blew away other buffers I've tried including the Boost N Buff even at 24 volts. Sounds good after all my pedals seemingly, fuzz included. It will retain your signal, highs, dynamics, etc.
So on it is, in fact, a buffer of sorts?
Right now I have mine after my overdrives and just before the amp as a volume only boost, but would it work as a first-in-line driver of sorts w/out the harshness I'm hearing out of the Horsie? Again, the key point is how it would react before the fuzz...

[kilsoo]

the harshness, i've found, is the horsie itself.. the method in which the optical sensor is manipulated is juvenile at best, and just plain lame at worst. It controls how much light hits the sensor by a triangular hole cut into a piece of cardboard that is swept back and forth by the treadle. "mods" i've read about to affect this is to simply bend the led downward or away from the sensor slightly so it isnt as intense of an effect. :facepalm

in either case, it sucks. hahah

[TooManyHobbies]

So on it is, in fact, a buffer of sorts?
Right now I have mine after my overdrives and just before the amp as a volume only boost, but would it work as a first-in-line driver of sorts w/out the harshness I'm hearing out of the Horsie? Again, the key point is how it would react before the fuzz...

As far as I know.. nothing will sound right in front of germanium fuzz. However, I've run mine before silicon and muff's and they were great. Different, but great. I find that a buffer before fuzz (non-germanium) makes it more liquidy and a bit more up front.. however.. that is not always desired.

[ToneRanger72]

the harshness, i've found, is the horsie itself.. the method in which the optical sensor is manipulated is juvenile at best, and just plain lame at worst. It controls how much light hits the sensor by a triangular hole cut into a piece of cardboard that is swept back and forth by the treadle. "mods" i've read about to affect this is to simply bend the led downward or away from the sensor slightly so it isnt as intense of an effect. :facepalm

in either case, it sucks. hahah
I don't mind how the wah itself works - although I agree it's not the greatest. I got a deal on it and don't really use wah enough to justify shelling out for an upgrade, but would probably miss having the option if it was gone. The real bad actor for me is the buffer's interaction with the fuzz...
As far as I know.. nothing will sound right in front of germanium fuzz.
And if the MK 4.23 is buffered when on - then yeah, I guess it probably wont work well before the fuzz...

[ATauO]

In my experience, I found that buffers/boosters work best after fuzz/dirt section. Fuzz and dirt are usually designed around having direct input from the guitar, and this is usually optimal.

[kiki_90291]

So on it is, in fact, a buffer of sorts?
Right now I have mine after my overdrives and just before the amp as a volume only boost, but would it work as a first-in-line driver of sorts w/out the harshness I'm hearing out of the Horsie? Again, the key point is how it would react before the fuzz...

Yes, it is a buffer - a buffer is basically an amplifier that converts the signal from high impedance (your guitar) to low impedance (something like line level, but usually not that hot). Most effects, when on, do this (they only "suck tone" when they are off). We typically think of buffers as being clean, transparent, but any thing that converts your impedance is acting as a buffer.

There are some good articles floating around about how fuzzes work and why you want nothing between your guitar and a fuzz - buffers will definitely kill the magic of a fuzz. So your chain should be guitar > fuzz > other effects. If anything goes in front of the fuzz, it should be true bypass. Not sure how the wah fits it, but I seem to recall they have similar issues.

[ToneRanger72]

Well, I made two changes – first I put my Plum Crazy Fuzzy Lady first in line in my electric signal chain, and then I also put the Bad Horsie in a loop box along with my EVH MXR phase 90. The change in the fuzz was really impressive – my previous tests had it after some true bypass boxes but not first in line – putting it first improved the tone even more. Then having the Horsie out of the chain yielded a warmer, rounder tone overall – not as much definition but also not as harsh on the high end. I was also able to bring the treble controls on my AC and RC booster up to flat 12 o’clock, where before I had to back them off to about 10 o’clock. Also, having the Horsie together in the loop with the Phase 90 helped cure some of the MXR’s volume drop issues by feeding it a stronger, brighter signal…

[earthtonesaudio]

Put a 10k resistor in series with the output of the wah.