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Webfoot
12-17-2009, 11:20 PM
Over a year ago I switched to a tele for full time gigging (really my only guitar) and lots of hard rock stuff. Put in a resistor and cap for the treble thing and chose the values with the amp on a clean at a low volume. Sounded really good. Also allowed the volume knob to be useful over a wider range.

Fast forward to yesterday.

Took the treble bleed circuit out. Now amazed at how much better the guitar sounds especially with dirt pedals. I probably rejected some tele pickups and high end dirt pedals because they did not sound right. Now it turns out the treble bleed circuit really goobered up the tone.... something so simple.

Nashville Slim
12-18-2009, 05:48 AM
I had the same experience. I had trouble getting pickups to sound as good in my Tele with a bleed cap as my other Tele. It always sounded thinner and a little ratty. I snipped the bleed out one day and it got warmer, fatter and sweeter sounding, and way better overdriven.

AudioWonderland
12-18-2009, 06:04 AM
Exactly why I snip them out of my PRSi

Bobb2
12-18-2009, 07:57 AM
For clean situations, I found the treble bleed useful but thin and brittle sounding with overdrive. I put it on a switch so it's there when I need it.

dazco
12-18-2009, 08:20 AM
i don't think you can say one way is better than the other. they are both usefull depending on a boatload of variables. I've had one of the tones pots in all my strats inline with the cap for years so i can vary how much or little of effect it has, and i gotta tell you i leave it close to or at at the highest setting most of the time. but for some things i like it way down for the reasons mentioned. I certainly wouldn't want to be w/o that choice tho.

Rob 62
12-18-2009, 02:01 PM
I tried all kinds of things with my '52 RI Telecaster, and then again with my Nocaster - including a treble bleed circuit on the volume, and a no-load tone control, and a phase switch (push-pull volume pot). It seemed to me, at the time, that the Telecaster was meant to be monkeyed with. But - yes: the guitar had lost girth in tone.

So, I switched out all of the crap-ola for RS volume and tone pots, and capacitors. That was well-spent money. The guitar never sounded better - and the operation is back to Tele-simple, as it should be.

jimmyj
12-18-2009, 02:09 PM
I put one in a tele a few years ago and after the first set at the next gig my wife said to me, "Whatever you did to your guitar, change it back". I snipped it out during break and said tele was back to sounding how it should. The treble bleed cap was not a subtle or good change to the tone in that case.

operanonverba
12-18-2009, 10:35 PM
Had the same experience with a Tele. Drove me nuts trying to figure out what was wrong. Cut it out and everything was bliss. But, I have some in an old LP Studio that I picked up with an RS kit. Killer tones and I can turn the volume way down and still get clear tone. Don't know yet if it's the RS kit or the bleed mods.

bluesjuke
12-18-2009, 10:48 PM
I think the treble bleed is causing problems in my R8 and will remove it tomorrow.

I've heard this circuit even on the neck volume can effect the bridge pu.

David Collins
12-18-2009, 11:27 PM
I assume everyone is referring to preferred tones at varying volume settings, as it is of course removed from the circuit with the volume at 10 and will have no effect until you turn down. As with any setup of course, usefulness of results will vary with your guitar, rig, settings, etc, as well as of course what values of cap and resistors you used. I personally prefer a mild treble bleed circuit, often with a low value cap (≤.001㎌) wired in series with a moderate value resistor (20-50kΩ), with that combination wired parallel with a high value resistor (220-470kΩ).

As to effecting the bridge pickup even if it's only wired on the neck volume, that simply could not occur. In the middle position on a Gibson wiring it may have an effect on the net tone, but pretty much only by how it changes the tone of the neck pickup itself and how that works it's way in to the mix (and only if you have the neck volume rolled back from 10). If you were switched to the bridge position alone, there's simply no way it could have any effect at all.

brad347
12-18-2009, 11:50 PM
This is a really good example of something broader to be aware of--

If we are doing something and expect to hear an "improvement," there's always the risk that any "change" will be heard as an "improvement" because we want to hear it that way. It's hard to be objective without a lot of experience.

I did the same thing with some Graph Tech saddles once on a vintage Jazzmaster. I got tired of breaking strings so I put them on and heard the change, and convinced myself it sounded better. When I went back to the originals it made my week... I had my guitar back.

"Different" is not always "better," but our expectations can bias us in that way and trick us.

As for the treble-pass mod (can't bring myself to call it "treble bleed" since it does the opposite, of course), I've never been convinced or into it. That's one trick I never fell for. When turning the volume down, sure it gets a little darker... that's just a part of electric guitar, to me.

The treble-pass cap or rc network does nothing to fix the source of that... that's inherent in the circuit. The mod just adds a different kind of brightness...kinda like flipping the "bright" switch on in an amp to compensate for a dark speaker. It's a compensatory measure... not a 'fix.'

bluesjuke
12-19-2009, 12:11 AM
David Collins-
"As to effecting the bridge pickup even if it's only wired on the neck volume, that simply could not occur. In the middle position on a Gibson wiring it may have an effect on the net tone, but pretty much only by how it changes the tone of the neck pickup itself and how that works it's way in to the mix (and only if you have the neck volume rolled back from 10). If you were switched to the bridge position alone, there's simply no way it could have any effect at all."


Middle position is what I should have posted as I know the neck and bridge are pretty much isolated.

I never played the guitar without it since the pot and cap change so I'm curious.

vintage66
12-19-2009, 12:17 AM
I had it done to the neck pickup of my Les Paul-really like it there but it's a dark guitar. On a tele, I don't see where it would be necessary, but since there's only one volume control, wouldn't it also have to affect the bridge pickup?

Guinness Lad
12-19-2009, 12:25 AM
I think this is a situation in which the user puts in too high of a cap and actually increases the treble as you turn down. I think if you know what your doing and don't choose some random value the guitar can behave and sound exactly the same when it's on 6 as it is on 10.

I think I used something like a 200 ohm resistor and a 330 PF cap, there was athread about treble bleed circuits in which I described what I did.

Wilbur
12-19-2009, 12:38 AM
I never did care for treble bleed mods. I've done this (see link below) to all my guitars. My LP copies were already wired '50s Gibson style. Just finished doing my other guitars like this yesterday.

http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2009/Jul/Gibson_50s_wiring_on_a_Stratocaster.aspx

GAT
12-19-2009, 12:38 AM
I have them on all my guitars, not a problem for me.

EADGBE
12-19-2009, 02:15 AM
Over a year ago I switched to a tele for full time gigging (really my only guitar) and lots of hard rock stuff. Put in a resistor and cap for the treble thing and chose the values with the amp on a clean at a low volume. Sounded really good. Also allowed the volume knob to be useful over a wider range.

Fast forward to yesterday.

Took the treble bleed circuit out. Now amazed at how much better the guitar sounds especially with dirt pedals. I probably rejected some tele pickups and high end dirt pedals because they did not sound right. Now it turns out the treble bleed circuit really goobered up the tone.... something so simple.Was the tone worse even when the volume was turned all the way up?

Ricker
12-19-2009, 02:28 AM
There's def something wrong if your treble bleed circuit affects your tone with volume on 10.........
Treble bleed just means less treble is rolled off as you turn down but it doesn't affect the full volume tone.........
I've always had treb circuits in my strats and they sound the same with the circuits and without at full vol............
some people just don't like that brighter, thinner sound when the treble bleed circuit is acting too treble bleady as the volume is turned down........

Now on a biting cutting tele......the circuit needs to be subtle otherwise the tone actually gets brighter......with less meat.

Rick

HeeHaw
12-19-2009, 04:32 AM
A good friend of mine installed a treble bleed cap in my custom shop strat and I can't tell any difference when the volume is all the way up, than when it didn't have the treble bleed caps.:dunno

bluesking55
12-20-2009, 07:11 AM
I get mine from Lindy Fralin, his shop is like 10 minutes from me, he takes a resistor an a cap and twist 'em, Ill try snipping 1 today and see

Totally Bored
12-20-2009, 07:32 AM
Love the Treble bleed in my Strats. Use to be very muddy when I turned the volume knob down without the Treble bleed.

I have not noticed a differance in tone when the the Volume pot ( With or without Treble bleed circuit ) is fully engaged and I'm pretty sure it's not supposed to work like that either.

Madison
12-20-2009, 07:36 AM
Gone from my DGT, much better to my ears.

The Kid
12-20-2009, 07:41 AM
I think the treble bledd is causing problems in my R8 and will remove it tomorrow.

I've heard this circuit even on the neck volume can effect the bridge pu.

Try the Gibson '57 wiring. You can find it on Jason Lollar's site.

SKJ
12-20-2009, 08:07 AM
A treble bleed cap or cap/resistor has no effect on a guitar's sound when its volume control is on 10. At this point pins 1 and 2 of the pot are shorted together, which means any cap or resistor is also shorted.

Whether you like the effect of a treble bleed mod depends on what effect you want from your volume pot. Most guitars get darker as you turn down but maybe that is a useful sound to have. How effects respond will change also.

I like some kind of treble bleed on all my guitars because I don't want the sound to get darker. You have to take the time to experiment to find the right cap/resistor combo for your guitar and rig. If you have separate volumes for each pickup you may want different treble bleed mods for each one. On my Les Paul I never use the tone control on the neck pickup, so I have it re-wired as a variable resistor in series with the treble bleed circuit. This way I can dial in as much or little of the treble bleed effect as I like.
It turns out this is a great way to be able to switch from bridge to neck pickup without wanting to change my amp or pedal settings. So I can set up my bridge sound to be full and rich, then switch to the neck and get a tone that does not sound like mud. The only negative thing is that you loose your neck tone control, so for those who like to use it, this is not a mod for you. If you find you don't need your neck pickup tone control however, and you like riding your volume, it can make your LP way more versatile. If you want the darker response of a non-treble bleed guitar, or if you step on a pedal that does not respond well to the treble bleed, simply turn up the tone control and it is out of the circuit. Its the best of the treble-bleed and non treble-bleed worlds!

Simon
Kingsley Amplifiers
www.kingsleyamplifiers.com (http://www.kingsleyamplifiers.com)

1radicalron
12-20-2009, 08:23 AM
Glad to read some of you have come around.
Kill the Dreaded Treble Bleed!

buddastrat
12-20-2009, 08:26 AM
Yeah I've been preachin' it too. Always hate those things. Makes the guitars sound thin whenever you're tryin' to "clean up". It never made sense to me anyhow, when you lower the knob, you're getting less distortion which means you don't need as much treble, for clarity.

there are certain builders/makes that always use them in their design and that really puzzles me.

GAT
12-20-2009, 08:43 AM
If you get the values correct, the sound doesn't thin out very much. Personally, I like a thinner backed off sound so that at full bore the guitar is fatter.

I can't stand rolling back the volume and have mud.

BTW, ACME guitar works sells a resistor/cap for humbuckers and one for single coils. I have the AMCEs in all my guitars.

David Collins
12-20-2009, 08:49 AM
Different strokes... The effect is going to be different with different pickups, different pots, different guitars, effects, amps, amp settings, playing styles, and all those differences are going to be perceived as different levels of desirability for different players.

To be honest, it seems rather uncommon that I hear of players not liking a treble bleed circuit once they've tried it, though there are certainly some who prefer a bit more of the edge being taken off as they roll back the volume. If you actually find the tone getting notably brighter as you roll back, it's likely a sign that you're using to high value a capacitor for that particular pickup/rig setup.

Or just don't use one at all if you don't like it. It's a bit bold to try to declare or define all treble bleeds as ultimately "bad" for all setups and players though.

I still can't help but get the impression however, that there are some here who believe they may be hearing a difference with the volume all the way up, though posts haven't been described in enough detail to be clear on this. If this is indeed the case, then they are either hearing something entirely psychosomatic, or something was wired terribly wrong. The treble bleed circuit is of course entirely removed from the circuit with the volume at 10, and only has any effect as volume is rolled back.

Tone_Terrific
12-20-2009, 12:09 PM
then they are either hearing something entirely psychosomatic, or something was wired terribly wrong. The treble bleed circuit is of course entirely removed from the circuit with the volume at 10, and only has any effect as volume is rolled back.

I often wonder what people hear around here.
The descriptions provided for the results of mods, etc., may be far removed from my perceptions, at times. Others are bang on.

I guess we will never know.

The subjective element of what is 'good' and 'bad' is well illustrated in this thread. As is the personal evaluation of what must be good or bad for the other guy, in lieu of just providing the info on what a simple mod can provide.:bkw

Tone_Terrific
12-20-2009, 12:11 PM
so I have it re-wired as a variable resistor in series with the treble bleed circuit. This way I can dial in as much or little of the treble bleed effect as I like.

Simon
Kingsley Amplifiers
www.kingsleyamplifiers.com (http://www.kingsleyamplifiers.com)


This works on amps, too, if one wants a variable level on the bright cap. (just to the general readership)

AudioWonderland
12-20-2009, 12:16 PM
I assume everyone is referring to preferred tones at varying volume settings, as it is of course removed from the circuit with the volume at 10 and will have no effect until you turn down.



In theory this is correct, but it is not as a practical matter.

D.G.
12-20-2009, 12:27 PM
Unless you have a "no-load" pot, many pots will not be completely 100% out of the circuit when turned all the way up. A treble bleed cap will have an effect on such a pot, even when the pot is turned all the way up. Personally, I keep my guitars turned up all the time except when I'm controlling a dirt pedal and then I want some treble loss.

David Collins
12-20-2009, 12:40 PM
Unless you have a "no-load" pot, many pots will not be completely 100% out of the circuit when turned all the way up. A treble bleed cap will have an effect on such a pot, even when the pot is turned all the way up. Personally, I keep my guitars turned up all the time except when I'm controlling a dirt pedal and then I want some treble loss.

You're confusing the function of a cap in a tone control circuit with that of a treble bleed on a volume control. Yes, the cap is still in the circuit on the tone control, and will have some degree of effect even at 10 unless you have a no-load pot.

On a treble bleed circuit however, it is fully removed when it's on 10. when your volume is all the way up there is direct connection between the center and upper lug. It is essentially no different than if you twisted the both ends of the cap/resistor together, and wired them all to the single upper lug. The treble bleed circuit is completely shorted at 10, with direct continuity from the pickup to the jack. The value of the volume pot itself is still in the circuit, but the treble bleed circuit is not.

Ricker
12-20-2009, 12:51 PM
I been telling you morons for years about this. I seldom post on this forum anymore cuz of the moron factor. = Glad to read some of you have come around.
Kill the Dreaded Treble Bleed!

That is a moronic response.........Glad that you only seldom post.

R

Ricker
12-20-2009, 12:59 PM
You're confusing the function of a cap in a tone control circuit with that of a treble bleed on a volume control. Yes, the cap is still in the circuit on the tone control, and will have some degree of effect even at 10 unless you have a no-load pot.

On a treble bleed circuit however, it is fully removed when it's on 10. when your volume is all the way up there is direct connection between the center and upper lug. It is essentially no different than if you twisted the both ends of the cap/resistor together, and wired them all to the single upper lug. The treble bleed circuit is completely shorted at 10, with direct continuity from the pickup to the jack. The value of the volume pot itself is still in the circuit, but the treble bleed circuit is not.

That's correct......Wow finally some clarity.........thanks for setting the record straight.
It's only when you lower the volume that more of the existing treble is bled back into the circuit.........nothing extra is being added that wasn't there when the pot was on 10.....
Some like this ........Cool
Some don't.........Cool

There are such huge variations that You have to tweak it to get one that fits your tone chain and style of playing.......it's a very personal thing.......not a one size fits all......

R

D.G.
12-20-2009, 01:12 PM
Ok, let me clarify.

On a scale of 0-100, 100 being the full amount of treble passed through with the pot wiper completely out of the circuit.

A treble bleed circuit allows an amount of the high end to completely bypass the pot at all times, i.e. 100.

If your pot goes to 95 (the wiper is not completely out of the signal path) then you will have some treble attenuation when the pot is all the way up. If you then install the treble bleed, you will have 100 and not 95. Therefore there will be a difference in amount of treble between "pot + no treble bleed" vs "pot + treble bleed".

Obviously, the difference may be greater or lesser depending on the pot and the treble circuit values.

Bruce Bennett
12-20-2009, 01:36 PM
i don't think you can say one way is better than the other. they are both usefull depending on a boatload of variables. I've had one of the tones pots in all my strats inline with the cap for years so i can vary how much or little of effect it has, and i gotta tell you i leave it close to or at at the highest setting most of the time. but for some things i like it way down for the reasons mentioned. I certainly wouldn't want to be w/o that choice tho.


interesting story.. but this idea wouldn't work exactly the same as stated.. adding a pot between the treble bleed circuit and the orignal volume pot, would actually be adding a second variable resistor to the overall volume control circuit, thus making it operate completely differently. it might even affect your voume pots normal operation.. I'll run a test on this tomorrow, and get back to you on this idea.

David Collins
12-20-2009, 01:47 PM
If the pot does not complete the circuit 100% (i.e., the tab stops the wiper before it fully reaches the end), then yes, you would certainly be correct. In my experience this is quite uncommon though, and when most pots are turned up to 10 it's usually hard to measure a few ohms resistance, which has no effect on a circuit based on 10's to 100's of kilo-ohms.

There may certainly be exceptions. I know I find many pots on early 90's Gibsons in which the cases were mis-stamped and stopped the wiper short of reaching the bottom. It's certainly possible examples can be found stopped short on the other end.

Still, overall I estimate this error to be rather rare, and not taken to reflect typical results of a treble bleed circuit.

Bruce Bennett
12-20-2009, 01:50 PM
Ok, let me clarify.

On a scale of 0-100, 100 being the full amount of treble passed through with the pot wiper completely out of the circuit.

A treble bleed circuit allows an amount of the high end to completely bypass the pot at all times, i.e. 100.

If your pot goes to 95 (the wiper is not completely out of the signal path) then you will have some treble attenuation when the pot is all the way up. If you then install the treble bleed, you will have 100 and not 95. Therefore there will be a difference in amount of treble between "pot + no treble bleed" vs "pot + treble bleed".

Obviously, the difference may be greater or lesser depending on the pot and the treble circuit values.


I'm sorry but this is not totally accurate.. ALL treble bleed circuits Do is to allow some higher frequencies to bypass the original volume pots resistance.. but some of the bass frequencies are lost along the way as they can't get past the RCR network that the half volume postion creates..

sure you get to keep most of your trebles.. but at the cost of some of your bass.
Nothing in the real world of electronics is done without some compromise. it is not possible to get something for nothing. there is ALWAYS some loss somewhere if only to "power" the circuit.
and because we all have "preferences" in the way we like to hear different frequencies ( because our personal body masses are not alike)

hence the reason why some folks hear the difference as being "better" while other hear it as being "worse"

Bruce Bennett
12-20-2009, 01:57 PM
If the pot does not complete the circuit 100% (i.e., the tab stops the wiper before it fully reaches the end), then yes, you would certainly be correct. In my experience this is quite uncommon though, and when most pots are turned up to 10 it's usually hard to measure a few ohms resistance, which has no effect on a circuit based on 10's to 100's of kilo-ohms.

There may certainly be exceptions. I know I find many pots on early 90's Gibsons in which the cases were mis-stamped and stopped the wiper short of reaching the bottom. It's certainly possible examples can be found stopped short on the other end.

Still, overall I estimate this error to be rather rare, and not taken to reflect typical results of a treble bleed circuit.


you will be very concerned to hear that about 12 years ago ALL pot manufacturrs made a chnage so that what you just mentioned .. is EXACTLY what happens. Wiper tabs no longer allow the wiper to make 100% contact anymore. Which is why Fender started offering the Delta pots I think they called them.. they are specially made to remove the resitance path completely from the pots circuit when fully clockwise. but I ran into this issues long time ago and not one pot manufacturer could help me. out

David Collins
12-20-2009, 02:20 PM
you will be very concerned to hear that about 12 years ago ALL pot manufacturrs made a chnage so that what you just mentioned .. is EXACTLY what happens. Wiper tabs no longer allow the wiper to make 100% contact anymore. Which is why Fender started offering the Delta pots I think they called them.. they are specially made to remove the resitance path completely from the pots circuit when fully clockwise. but I ran into this issues long time ago and not one pot manufacturer could help me. out

I measure pots all the time, and haven't found this scenario at all. Whenever I'm rewiring a guitar or replacing pots (several times a month, at least) I have developed a habit of always clipping them to my meter, both to check their actual resistance, as well as make sure none of the tapers are mis-marked (I switch wafers on pots once in a while, and want to make sure I don't pick one that I didn't mark clearly or tossed back in the wrong bin). So measuring pots is a very regular occurrence in my shop, and it's very, very rare that I find any that will measure more than a few ohms resistance at 10. I've found the problem more with CGE pots, but since they are producing no longer this isn't much of a concern. With CTS pots, I can't recall the last time I came across a new one which didn't fully complete the circuit at 10.

If this were more common, it would be a much more common complaint that could be easily heard. If the wiper stops short at the bottom end, the volume will not fully cut out when you turn down. This does happen on occasion, and is leaves a clearly audible remnant of signal when you turn down from heavy overdrive. I certainly wouldn't say it is the norm however.

scott
12-20-2009, 02:30 PM
I dont like the bleed cap myself. It thins things out and I just dont like the way the volume pot works with them installed. Different strokes for different folks I guess. I grew up on single channel amps where you had to turn the volume down to get a clean sound and the treble bleed cap always made things sound like crap. I find that it takes the balls out of the sound.

sleek
12-20-2009, 03:24 PM
Y'all are nuts.

I recently put one of the Torres engineering "volume kits" on my Riviera's lead pup pot, and I loooove it.

It makes it so the volume knob is just like a master output knob, which is to say, you cut the volume to half, and it still sounds like the same pickup~just with less output.

For me, this has opened up (probably too) many new tone options, and I find myself actually using the volume for something other than shutting the guitar off in between songs!

Again, love it.

I think it's interesting that the majority of complaints seem to be about teles...could the output of the pickup have something to do with it? Or do people just use the natural tone-suck of a volume pot to dull down the sound of the tele pickup?

Hmmmm...this reminds me of the old debate about why stuff sounds worse on CDs...it's just that on CD you hear the native awfullness of the treble that vinyl couldn't reproduce!

Don A
12-20-2009, 03:34 PM
That is a moronic response.........Glad that you only seldom post.

R

I think he meant his own "moron factor".

Don A
12-20-2009, 03:36 PM
I don't use a treble bleed circuit because I use fuzz pedals a lot and clean them up by turning my guitar's volume down. The treble bleed circuits that I've tried have affected that negatively.

Tone_Terrific
12-20-2009, 03:55 PM
No-load pots are used on tone controls.
Tone controls are configured differently to vol controls.
Those in doubt need to look at a schematic.

No wonder myths persist in this field.

To vary the effect of the bypass cap the variable resistor (pot) is placed in series with the cap. At zero resistance (available with a non-defective pot) the pot is out of the circuit.

HeeHaw
12-20-2009, 04:44 PM
Well, this thread has helped me make up my mind about my treble bleed circuit on my strat.


....I'm not removing it.:D

Kelly
12-20-2009, 05:07 PM
Exactly why I snip them out of my PRSiBecause of this post I just snipped the one in my Custom 22. Yes, it's a little darker now, but WHAT A DIFFERENCE! All of this tine I thought the Dragon II pickups were to blame for the nasty high end. Now it's gone, and my C22 sounds big and fat. Thanks a ton!
:banana

aleclee
12-20-2009, 05:27 PM
If we are doing something and expect to hear an "improvement," there's always the risk that any "change" will be heard as an "improvement" because we want to hear it that way.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect

Brett Valentine
12-20-2009, 10:59 PM
Love it in my Tele (Kinman version of the circuit). The entire range is useable for me. Same thing with most of my other electrics, though not in my Strat or ES335.

Jerrod
12-20-2009, 11:14 PM
Count me as a moron. I like 'em. Of course it couldn't possible boil down to personal preference, never mind difference of approach to playing style, effect, amps, etc. Impossible.

David Collins
12-20-2009, 11:22 PM
Because of this post I just snipped the one in my Custom 22. Yes, it's a little darker now, but WHAT A DIFFERENCE! All of this tine I thought the Dragon II pickups were to blame for the nasty high end. Now it's gone, and my C22 sounds big and fat. Thanks a ton!
:banana

For the sake of better understanding for those who read posts like this in the future, please make sure to clarify that the differences found before and after only exist when the volume is rolled back from 10. The way this is written, it may be easy for some to construe that you are talking about changes existing when the your guitar's volume is all the way up.

If this were indeed what you were referring to, the explanation of changes you heard lies in this post -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect

brad347
12-21-2009, 12:21 AM
Hmmmm...this reminds me of the old debate about why stuff sounds worse on CDs...it's just that on CD you hear the native awfullness of the treble that vinyl couldn't reproduce!

Not even close to true, for the record. CDs are digitally encoded with a shallow bit depth and the barest minimum of sample rate to raise the nyquist frequency just barely above human hearing.

A better turntable cartridge and stylus can reproduce frequencies well above human hearing, and much higher than a CD.

The reasons stuff often sounds worse on CDs are many and varied, including the shallow bit depth and low sample rate, poor DAC converters on typical consumer CD players causing problems with jitter etc., (in the early days of CD) poor conversion on the ADC end and inferior mastering for CD, improper dithering, etc.

To say that the CD is giving you something a GOOD vinyl rig is not is simply untrue.

shane88
12-21-2009, 02:35 AM
i once used the "kinman" values in strat type guitars and then removed them and now i only use humbuckers in various "superstrat" type guitars and imo all these things are a waste of time > but i don't use "tone" pots either > only vol

most of us (?) would only turn down to 7 or so and the loss of treble isn't worth worrying about imo = simple is best

johnh
12-21-2009, 06:25 AM
I cannot debate the "pots on 10" argument, nor would I want to. The fact is that my volume knob is rarely on 10 anyway, so a treble bleed circuit affects my sound most of the time.

I did have the Kinman version on one of my strats, and it was a very interesting sound, and very useful at times. I agree that it is totally down to personal preference, but I much prefer the stock wiring, and rely upon the sound warming up a little as I roll the volume down.

The issue I faced with some treble bleed circuits was that the sound actually became darker as I turned up, which seems to be a totally counter-intuitive setup for me. When I turn up (tends to be for a solo or fill) I want the sound to cut through more - not less.

I also thought the sound was slightly brittle and "artifical" sounding when the voume was reduced and the bleed circuit was doing it's thing. I'd like to hear it on my humbuckers though. From my (very limited) experience, I'd say that here is a dramatic difference in different circuits and how they affect your sound. I also would imagine that your amps/pedals etc would affect things a lot too. So what doesn't work for me, might be great in someone else's setup.

Jef Bardsley
12-21-2009, 07:15 AM
Different strokes... The effect is going to be different with different pickups, different pots, different guitars, effects, amps, amp settings, playing styles, and all those differences are going to be perceived as different levels of desirability for different players.

To be honest, it seems rather uncommon that I hear of players not liking a treble bleed circuit once they've tried it, though there are certainly some who prefer a bit more of the edge being taken off as they roll back the volume. If you actually find the tone getting notably brighter as you roll back, it's likely a sign that you're using to high value a capacitor for that particular pickup/rig setup.
Let's go back to this. A lot of what's being said amounts to "I turned the tuning peg both ways and my guitar's still out of tune!". We all know there's only one position for that peg to get the string in tune, the same is true for treble bleed circuits. Except for those of us that like the rolloff, if you don't like your treble bleed it's likely you have the wrong values for your pickups and cable. Yes, cable. That's really what you're compensating for, and that's why there's no 'one size fits all' recipe.

And the proper way to do it is with a cap bigger than you'd use with just a cap alone, and a resistor in series to reduce the bleed. Adding a parallel cap as David does changes the taper of the volume pot, and while that's a good thing for some people it will also affect the amount of bleed so it just makes it harder to get it right. Get the cap and series resistor right first, add a parallel resistor for the taper, then retweak the series resistor.

Or do what JohnH and I do: dial in your sound on '7' or so, and then enjoy a treble boost when you turn up. ;)

TNO
12-21-2009, 07:32 AM
So if volume pots are out of the circuit when set full on I guess 250k pots should be used in Gibsons and 1meg pots don't contribute to harshness in 70's Fenders. I'll just continue to go with what my ears tell me. I don't like bright caps in amps either.

David Collins
12-21-2009, 09:37 AM
So if volume pots are out of the circuit when set full on I guess 250k pots should be used in Gibsons and 1meg pots don't contribute to harshness in 70's Fenders. I'll just continue to go with what my ears tell me. I don't like bright caps in amps either.

Where in the world did you read that? What's being pointed out again and again here is that the treble bleed circuit is fully removed from the circuit when the volume is on 10, not the volume pot.

AudioWonderland
12-21-2009, 10:33 AM
For the sake of better understanding for those who read posts like this in the future, please make sure to clarify that the differences found before and after only exist when the volume is rolled back from 10. The way this is written, it may be easy for some to construe that you are talking about changes existing when the your guitar's volume is all the way up.

If this were indeed what you were referring to, the explanation of changes you heard lies in this post -

What he wrote is exactly what my experience was and its not only when the vol pot is less than 10.

While I agree in theory it should not impact anything when on 10, the real world is that it has on all 4 PRS I have and I am far from the only one who holds that opinion.

AudioWonderland
12-21-2009, 10:37 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect

I was not expecting an improvement when I removed mine. Quite the contrary. The theory said it should be no impact. I heard one though.

I think the issue is that pots/caps are generally +/- 20% or more and I seriously doubt we can't count on the theory being 100% applicable in the real world when the components have that wide of a swing

Tone_Terrific
12-21-2009, 12:05 PM
I was not expecting an improvement when I removed mine. Quite the contrary. The theory said it should be no impact. I heard one though.

I think the issue is that pots/caps are generally +/- 20% or more and I seriously doubt we can't count on the theory being 100% applicable in the real world when the components have that wide of a swing

You WILL NOT hear any difference when you connect a cap across two points that are already, effectively, hard-wired together. PERIOD. Anything else is some sort of weird anomaly that you have caused with the installation.

AudioWonderland
12-21-2009, 12:11 PM
You WILL NOT hear any difference when you connect a cap across two points that are already, effectively, hard-wired together. PERIOD. Anything else is some sort of weird anomaly that you have caused with the installation.

Cool...So now I am a hack as a tech as well as deaf... Thanks for your post.

You have convinced me.....:bow:dunno:jo

SKJ
12-21-2009, 01:53 PM
First of all I think everyone can agree that connecting a cap or cap/resistor combination across two points that are connected together can not have any effect whatsoever. This means that as long as your volume pot is functioning properly (meaning that at max setting lug 1 and 2 are now connected together, or are shorted), a treble bleed installed across lugs 1 and 2 of that pot will have no effect electrically or sonically when the pot is turned completely up.
If someone experiences a difference in sound with a treble bleed, when vol is at max, then this means that the pot is not working properly. In this case change the pot - if the pot is causing the treble bleed to change the sound at max setting, it is also not letting the full output of your pickups through....

Something else to be aware of is that the treble bleed effect increases as the pot is turned down. Quite often treble bleeds get a bad name because the cap is too big. Then a player who uses a fair amount of overdrive or distortion turns down the volume to clean up the sound and finds that the volume pot has to be turned down quite a long way to clean up the sound - to the point where the cap (that is probably too big) is now having a very large effect and the sound becomes way too thin.
To those who have not had any luck with treble bleeds, but would like to get a bit more clarity (but not a thin sound) as the volume is turned down, I would suggest to try a smaller cap. If its a cap alone, 1000pF is way too big. 500pF is probably too big. Try a 330pF or 250pF. If you are combining with a resistor this changes however.
You can find the right cap or resistor/cap that has only a small effect. It could be designed that the sound still gets darker as the volume is reduced, just not as dark as with no treble bleed.
Of course if you already like the way your guitar works with no treble bleed then great!
I especially like some treble bleed because I find I can get a better rolled off clean sound when playing with OD than without the treble bleed. If I brighten up my amp to compensate then I tend to find that my sound is too bright when I raise the guitar volume.
Here is an example of a strat style guitar (with humbuckers) using a 500pF in parallel with a 220K resistor across lugs 1 and 2 of a 250K volume pot:

http://www.kingsleyamplifiers.com/ktones/d30g12hvolpot.mp3

Simon
Kingsley Amplifiers
www.kingsleyamplifiers.com

shallbe
12-21-2009, 02:09 PM
I don't care for them in some guitars and they really sound horrible in PRS, IMO.

Ricker
12-21-2009, 02:17 PM
I was not expecting an improvement when I removed mine. Quite the contrary. The theory said it should be no impact. I heard one though.

I think the issue is that pots/caps are generally +/- 20% or more and I seriously doubt we can't count on the theory being 100% applicable in the real world when the components have that wide of a swing

I was adjusting the treble and mids on a Channel I wasn't actually using and I heard a difference..........until i found out that i was playing a different channel.........hehe
The mind is very powerful in the tone equation.........
If you think you heard something..........then you did........
even if you actually didn't

R

gulliver
12-21-2009, 02:19 PM
On my Les Paul I never use the tone control on the neck pickup, so I have it re-wired as a variable resistor in series with the treble bleed circuit. This way I can dial in as much or little of the treble bleed effect as I like.

Great idea.

I just built one of these cap substitution kits, I'll use it to dial in the desired cap.

http://media.gibsontron.com/E-K-38.jpg

Husky
12-21-2009, 02:42 PM
Over a year ago I switched to a tele for full time gigging (really my only guitar) and lots of hard rock stuff. Put in a resistor and cap for the treble thing and chose the values with the amp on a clean at a low volume. Sounded really good. Also allowed the volume knob to be useful over a wider range.

Fast forward to yesterday.

Took the treble bleed circuit out. Now amazed at how much better the guitar sounds especially with dirt pedals. I probably rejected some tele pickups and high end dirt pedals because they did not sound right. Now it turns out the treble bleed circuit really goobered up the tone.... something so simple.

It is only going to change things when you turn down the volume
Also the values can be adjusted to taste and the length / capacitance of the cable you are using.

Also just for reference a rather large treble bleed cap is standard original wiring on teles.

David Collins
12-21-2009, 02:45 PM
First of all I think everyone can agree that connecting a cap or cap/resistor combination across two points that are connected together can not have any effect whatsoever.

You would think, yes. That simple, seemingly indubitable fact however, appears to be exactly what several here deny. How? Got me there....

Of course, if a pot were defective and stopped short of full continuity, this would leave the treble bleed in a position to affect the circuit, though very, very slightly unless the pot were severely defective. Just for the heck of it, I just pulled out a bunch of pots (new and old, CTS, CGE, Alpha, and a few random imports) and checked their resistance at 10. The most resistance I could find on a CTS pot was 0.1Ω (or 0.0001kΩ, to put it in perspective with the rest of the circuit), but that was only on one of them, and the rest read as 0. On the Alphas and other imports, they ranged from 0 to 2Ω. The CGE's (never my favorites to begin with) all ranged in the 1-3Ω, with one exception pushing 4Ω. None of these errors amount to enough resistance to leave the treble bleed circuit in any position to deliver a notable effect in a circuit like this.

My point is, as I stated before, that defective pots are relatively rare, and unlikely to be accountable for the majority of changes some here claim to have found. Your pot would have to stop rather short, leaving a resistance of at least a few hundred to a few thousand times what is commonly found to have any notable effect. If this were the case however, and you find a truly different and preferred tone with the volume on 10 after clipping the treble bleed, then you are essentially saying that you prefer a mod (intentional or not) in the other direction. This means that if you had a guitar with a perfectly working volume pot, you would prefer the tone with your pickup wired series through a low value resistor (a few kΩ), as that is essentially what a defective pot would deliver, which is the only way clipping out a treble bleed circuit could have had any effect on 10.

Sorry, but this is one of the most ridiculous discussions I've participated in here.

Tone_Terrific
12-21-2009, 02:46 PM
Cool...So now I am a hack as a tech as well as deaf... Thanks for your post.

You have convinced me.....:bow:dunno:jo

Good.
When you make claims that step outside the bounds of physics you really have to rethink your position or submit a paper.
Maybe it's that internet/reading/writing thing, but that was my interpretation of your remarks, sorry if we are beating this up for nothing.

sabby
12-21-2009, 03:19 PM
I never did care for treble bleed mods. I've done this (see link below) to all my guitars. My LP copies were already wired '50s Gibson style. Just finished doing my other guitars like this yesterday.

http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2009/Jul/Gibson_50s_wiring_on_a_Stratocaster.aspx

This gem was way back on the first page. It's my preference as well.

SKJ
12-21-2009, 03:22 PM
You would think, yes. That simple, seemingly indubitable fact however, appears to be exactly what several here deny. How? Got me there....

Of course, if a pot were defective and stopped short of full continuity, this would leave the treble bleed in a position to affect the circuit, though very, very slightly unless the pot were severely defective. Just for the heck of it, I just pulled out a bunch of pots (new and old, CTS, CGE, Alpha, and a few random imports) and checked their resistance at 10. The most resistance I could find on a CTS pot was 0.1Ω (or 0.0001kΩ, to put it in perspective with the rest of the circuit), but that was only on one of them, and the rest read as 0. On the Alphas and other imports, they ranged from 0 to 2Ω. The CGE's (never my favorites to begin with) all ranged in the 1-3Ω, with one exception pushing 4Ω. None of these errors amount to enough resistance to leave the treble bleed circuit in any position to deliver a notable effect in a circuit like this.

My point is, as I stated before, that defective pots are relatively rare, and unlikely to be accountable for the majority of changes some here claim to have found. Your pot would have to stop rather short, leaving a resistance of at least a few hundred to a few thousand times what is commonly found to have any notable effect. If this were the case however, and you find a truly different and preferred tone with the volume on 10 after clipping the treble bleed, then you are essentially saying that you prefer a mod (intentional or not) in the other direction. This means that if you had a guitar with a perfectly working volume pot, you would prefer the tone with your pickup wired series through a low value resistor (a few kΩ), as that is essentially what a defective pot would deliver, which is the only way clipping out a treble bleed circuit could have had any effect on 10.

Sorry, but this is one of the most ridiculous discussions I've participated in here.

Yes, the idea that a standard treble bleed can have any effect at max guitar volume is just not true. I think there are only a couple of guys here that seem to be suggesting this - no big deal...

However, the discussion in general about treble bleed mods is interesting. A variable resistor in series with a cap is a great way to get the most out of a treble bleed cap. On a strat you could wire it for one global tone pot and use the other tone pot for this variable treble bleed. Turning the pot up would put you back to stock for those times that you want the sound to get darker as you turn down, or if you find that a particular pedal reacts negatively to the treble bleed.

Simon
Kingsley Amplifiers
www.kingsleyamplifiers.com

The Golden Boy
12-21-2009, 03:33 PM
I like the "Treble Bleed" thing done to my neck pickups.

I don't have channel switching amps and I only use an OD for a boost.

I usually have my amp set to the desired amount of gain with my bridge pickup open, my "clean channel" becomes my neck pickup with the volume backed off- and the tone control set to taste (off setting the treble bleed effect).


Everybody uses their stuff differently- that's how I use mine and the 'treble bleed' thing is important for the way it works.

AudioWonderland
12-21-2009, 05:31 PM
Good.
When you make claims that step outside the bounds of physics you really have to rethink your position or submit a paper.
Maybe it's that internet/reading/writing thing, but that was my interpretation of your remarks, sorry if we are beating this up for nothing.

That's exactly what I was saying. You were not here to see my work or hear what the result was yet you felt compelled to tell me my work was shit and I was imagining things

They don't have an emoticon for sarcasm....

Axekisser
12-21-2009, 06:23 PM
I do the "vintage" Gibson wiring on all my guitars because it seems to sound better and smoother to me. I also do the "Kinman" volume pot mod which is a 150K resistor across the two active terminals. I only use a small (100-300pf) cap for treble bypass. I've never had any issues.

I have worked on guitars where the bypass cap was over a 1000pf and the axe actually got brighter as you turned down. That's cool for special effect (maybe) but it sure makes the guitar very bright.

Jef Bardsley
12-21-2009, 07:12 PM
I was not expecting an improvement when I removed mine. Quite the contrary. The theory said it should be no impact. I heard one though.....

You were not here to see my work or hear what the result was yet you felt compelled to tell me my work was shit and I was imagining things.
That's the way we roll around here. Since you're the one claiming the impossible, the burden of proof (or at least a plausable explanation) is on you.

I think the issue is that pots/caps are generally +/- 20% or more and I seriously doubt we can't count on the theory being 100% applicable in the real world when the components have that wide of a swing
The theory applies to any value cap - if both leads are touching each other, there can be no difference in the voltage on the plates, and thus it cannot have any effect as a cap, resistor, inductor.... it's going to be silent. So the tolerances have no effect on the theory.

Guinness Lad
12-21-2009, 07:13 PM
Here's what I did with both my Vinetto's. The key is a low value cap...I stuck with 330pf which is almost nothing. What ends up happening is my guitars sound nearly identical throughout the entire sweep of the volume control.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=459909&highlight=treble+bleed

teletran1175
12-21-2009, 07:17 PM
I use my volume pot as a gain knob and I can't imagine life without a treble bleed.
"Different" is not always worse, either.

Brett Valentine
12-22-2009, 12:11 PM
I do the "vintage" Gibson wiring on all my guitars because it seems to sound better and smoother to me. I also do the "Kinman" volume pot mod which is a 150K resistor across the two active terminals. I only use a small (100-300pf) cap for treble bypass. I've never had any issues.

I have worked on guitars where the bypass cap was over a 1000pf and the axe actually got brighter as you turned down. That's cool for special effect (maybe) but it sure makes the guitar very bright.

Have a Carvin (koa) that sounds pretty dark, and a larger cap brightens it up nicely when the volume is turned down low (been son long, don't remember the exact value - just what I had lying around).

KeithC
12-22-2009, 12:21 PM
I finally settled on a low value cap and resistor in series and like it.

I was one that "thought" with the standard value(higher) cap and resistor that it seemed it affected the sound with the pot all the way up.

I proved myself wrong by soldering leads and clips and just taking them in and out of the circuit with the pot on 10 over and over and I was wrong. At 10 it sounded the same with or without the cap/resistor.

What I did find out was that the normal values did seem to make the tone brighter as I turned down rather than just keep it even and I guess that gives the impression that at 10 it was actually darker.
When you can take it in and out in real time it just didn't pan out that way.

Jef Bardsley
12-22-2009, 12:45 PM
I finally settled on a low value cap and resistor in series and like it.

I was one that "thought" with the standard value(higher) cap and resistor that it seemed it affected the sound with the pot all the way up.

I proved myself wrong by soldering leads and clips and just taking them in and out of the circuit with the pot on 10 over and over and I was wrong. At 10 it sounded the same with or without the cap/resistor.

What I did find out was that the normal values did seem to make the tone brighter as I turned down rather than just keep it even and I guess that gives the impression that at 10 it was actually darker.
When you can take it in and out in real time it just didn't pan out that way.
Very astute. I suspect that explains some of the misconceptions voiced in this thread.

dewman
02-22-2011, 08:06 AM
Bringing back this thread because I removed a treble bleed setup in a tele I recently got and it did change the tone for the better, most noticeable was the high end click or something on the attack of the note that disappeared. So understand that this shouldn't be noticed if the pot was working right technically, but the guitar is audibly warmer and fatter, especially on the bridge pickup. I dig it without the treble bleed.

mslugano
02-22-2011, 11:33 AM
I love it myself. I use my volume knob a lot and hate the way things get muddy without the treble bleed. If I need to, I can always warm things up with the tone knob and/or the amp.

EADGBE
02-22-2011, 12:07 PM
Bringing back this thread because I removed a treble bleed setup in a tele I recently got and it did change the tone for the better, most noticeable was the high end click or something on the attack of the note that disappeared. So understand that this shouldn't be noticed if the pot was working right technically, but the guitar is audibly warmer and fatter, especially on the bridge pickup. I dig it without the treble bleed.

You mean it sounds better even when the volume is all the way up?

Teahead
02-22-2011, 12:19 PM
Aaaarrgghhh!

larimar
02-22-2011, 12:37 PM
IIRC Fender used a cap on the Tele's volume pot for some time.

David Collins
02-22-2011, 12:58 PM
Bringing back this thread because I removed a treble bleed setup in a tele I recently got and it did change the tone for the better, most noticeable was the high end click or something on the attack of the note that disappeared. So understand that this shouldn't be noticed if the pot was working right technically, but the guitar is audibly warmer and fatter, especially on the bridge pickup. I dig it without the treble bleed.

If you're talking about the tone with the volume rolled back, then yes, this is how it works. High end will be less without the treble bleed than it was with - when the volume is rolled back.

It almost sounds however, like you may be talking about a change with the volume on 10? If this is the case, then you have just seen a perfect example of the power of the placebo, as unless there was something drastically wrong with your previous wiring (or your volume pot), or someone changed the laws of physics while I was sleeping, then there simply is no possible real change with or without the treble bleed with the volume on 10.

Polynitro
02-22-2011, 02:49 PM
welcome to the 1950s.

I, like tons of people for the last 50 years like some highend rolloff with volume.

dewman
02-22-2011, 06:06 PM
Sorry to call you out Mr. Collins but I have studied advanced quantum physics (and general relativity)...seriously, and I didn't envoke any change that might affect physics nor Planck's constant . And I can explain why, and am in perfect agreement with the physics and in fact I agree with you...let me explain. I have definitely removed a very high end treble component of the sound of the guitar by removing the treble bleed cap (and nothing else changed, same strings, pickups, etc.). A clanky high end metallic component of the guitar sound is no more. Kaput. Gone completely. It just ain't there. The volume is up full as is the tone when I made that assessment of course. I am very clear about this because it was so noticeable. High and clanky as my friend put it. But it is GONE now. Everything else is quite the same, it just gets darker quickly when the volume is rolled down and the tone as expected..

Nonetheless, for this to work with the laws of physics it clearly means my pots probably aren't up to spec either. Nonetheless the clanky metallic component of the tone was removed and I don't care. Works better with overdrives and fuzzes now since I am not amplifying the clank anymore. Might not be the case on every guitar, nor on those with perfectly speced pots, but I don't mind. Removing the treble bleed kit knocked it out of the park. And this is NO placebo effect - I have a Ph.D. in organic chemistry and I know a thing or two about biomedical research and physics, so I would not envoke such a startling response if it didn't work in this case. I'm now going back upstairs and play that non-spiky guitar now and grin with the satisfaction that I got lucky all the physics didn't go my way - and my pots are a little cheaply constructed....:)

If you're talking about the tone with the volume rolled back, then yes, this is how it works. High end will be less without the treble bleed than it was with - when the volume is rolled back.

It almost sounds however, like you may be talking about a change with the volume on 10? If this is the case, then you have just seen a perfect example of the power of the placebo, as unless there was something drastically wrong with your previous wiring (or your volume pot), or someone changed the laws of physics while I was sleeping, then there simply is no possible real change with or without the treble bleed with the volume on 10.

Jerrod
02-22-2011, 08:17 PM
Sorry to call you out Mr. Collins but I have studied advanced quantum physics (and general relativity)...seriously, and I didn't envoke any change that might affect physics nor Planck's constant . And I can explain why, and am in perfect agreement with the physics and in fact I agree with you...let me explain. I have definitely removed a very high end treble component of the sound of the guitar by removing the treble bleed cap (and nothing else changed, same strings, pickups, etc.). A clanky high end metallic component of the guitar sound is no more. Kaput. Gone completely. It just ain't there. The volume is up full as is the tone when I made that assessment of course. I am very clear about this because it was so noticeable. High and clanky as my friend put it. But it is GONE now. Everything else is quite the same, it just gets darker quickly when the volume is rolled down and the tone as expected..

Nonetheless, for this to work with the laws of physics it clearly means my pots probably aren't up to spec either. Nonetheless the clanky metallic component of the tone was removed and I don't care. Works better with overdrives and fuzzes now since I am not amplifying the clank anymore. Might not be the case on every guitar, nor on those with perfectly speced pots, but I don't mind. Removing the treble bleed kit knocked it out of the park. And this is NO placebo effect - I have a Ph.D. in organic chemistry and I know a thing or two about biomedical research and physics, so I would not envoke such a startling response if it didn't work in this case. I'm now going back upstairs and play that non-spiky guitar now and grin with the satisfaction that I got lucky all the physics didn't go my way - and my pots are a little cheaply constructed....:)

What does "envoke" mean?

David Collins
02-22-2011, 08:28 PM
Dewman, while I appreciate the reassurance that the laws of physics have not changed without my approval ;), I do hope you noticed that I did include a more sincere conditional clause preceding that quip -

as unless there was something drastically wrong with your previous wiring (or your volume pot), or someone changed the laws of physics while I was sleeping, then there simply is no possible real change with or without the treble bleed with the volume on 10.

So we've cleared up that the laws of physics remain relatively unchanged, which leaves a few remaining possibilities here. One could be that you are hearing a change which does not truly exist, or perhaps affecting a real change with subtleties in playing style influenced by belief that it may. Or you have a faulty volume pot which is stopping a significant amount short of full continuity between the input and output lugs, which seems to be the theory we're going with. This is certainly a possibility, and is easily enough checked with a meter. If this is the case though, then the pot should be tested and its condition disclosed before putting this out for others to read, who may go on to falsely believe that treble bleeds may actually affect tone at 10 under normal conditions.

That said, with it established that there may be indeed be a real difference if you volume pot is faulty, you must surely realize that no one, regardless of their credentials or experience, is immune to suggestive influences in how they may perceive results in comparisons such as this. Even the greatest experts in any field can still be fooled, hence the importance of double blind testing, and the reason for my challenge to the claims as they originally appeared in your post.

I realize that you are not submitting a paper for publication here, but none the less people do refer to these discussions and proceed to reference them as fact. One important fact I feel needs to be emphasized to readers here is that if your volume pot is working correctly, there is no possible way that a treble bleed circuit can have any effect on tone when the volume is on 10. Your particular circumstances may truly allow the treble bleed to cause a difference if the pot is stopping short of full continuity, but this would be an exception dependent on your particular circumstances, and I feel it important to emphasize that this would not be the norm.

K-Line
02-23-2011, 05:41 AM
Everything is a compromise. Treble bleed alters the tone. Using a Hum in the neck of a tele is a compromise.

dewman
02-23-2011, 07:50 AM
I think I'll say what I say to my wife in these situations: you may be right :)

larimar
02-23-2011, 08:03 AM
I think I'll say what I say to my wife in these situations: you may be right :)


:rotflmao:bonk

EADGBE
02-23-2011, 09:52 AM
My favorite guitar, a 1987 Baretta has the factory installed treble bleed mod. I won't take it out because it's my best sounding guitar. However when I wire guitars up I don't add this mod. As I seldom turn down. And I when I do turn down I kind of like the slight treble loss. It gives me a thicker tone. I believe when Leo first started utilizing this mod on guitars the amps in general were much darker sounding than they are today. So I suppose there was a real need for such a mod back then. So whatever floats your boat. It's all good! http://******************/music-smiley-7505.gif

Jackie Treehorn
02-23-2011, 10:54 AM
Yes, treble bleed circuits are not for me. I generally don't really like bright caps across volume/gain in amps either, sometimes they work, though.

These threads I've been reading lately, they kind of strike me like people are either stuck on obvious or placebo. There's some middle ground. It's been a long time since I did the treble bleed on a guitar, but it doesn't seem impossible (although improbable) to me to hear some effect on 10.

Lots of capacitors are microphonic, especially ceramics. The oil and wax caps much less so, but people probably aren't using small values in these types for treble bleeds.

Even though there is minimal resistance between the lugs, there could be enough to present different impedances to high frequencies. A lot of enlightened listeners hear a harshness in silver plated wires which some attribute to smearing due to different impedances to high frequencies.

Possibly, the loop you've created is an antennae for noise. Look at grounding, it's all the same electrical connection right? It can't possibly effect anything! Anyone who claims that different grounding schemes sound different is a placebo swilling audio-phool! It's all the same connection after all...

Carry on...and keep clipping out those treble bleeds!:JAM

David Collins
02-23-2011, 11:29 AM
I give up. This is just...
Bloody hell, bigfoot and spoon bending, I give up.

Jerrod
02-23-2011, 11:31 AM
I give up. This is just...
Bloody hell, bigfoot and spoon bending, I give up.

Thanks for trying. :)

Joe Naylor
02-23-2011, 11:45 AM
Mr. Collins, you are an amazingly patient man.


FWIW, we put a treble bleed in all our guitars and never had one complaint. But, we don't use a big value cap. 220pf with no resistor, works well with all models.

It's easy enough to figure out what works or doesn't work for you. Just attach a couple short wires with alligator clips to the volume pot, and swap in caps while playing.

6inline
02-23-2011, 03:07 PM
Mr. Collins, you are an amazingly patient man.


FWIW, we put a treble bleed in all our guitars and never had one complaint. But, we don't use a big value cap. 220pf with no resistor, works well with all models.

It's easy enough to figure out what works or doesn't work for you. Just attach a couple short wires with alligator clips to the volume pot, and swap in caps while playing.

So apropo... After reading thru this thread I decided to experiment on my main guitars, which are all Reverends and all have the treble bleed in the circuit. I went after my Club King (2 hb's) first using the alligator clip method.

No change at full volume for me. Noticeably darker sounding with the cap disconnected and volume knob <full. Hooked it right back up. It does what it is supposed to do, but I just had to check it out. I'm leaving the others alone as well.

Jef Bardsley
02-23-2011, 05:06 PM
one more time....

A treble bleed is connected between the input and output lugs of the pot. When the pot is turned to "10", the wiper connected to the output lug touches the input lug. Unless you have gunk or corrosion on the parts, you have a dead short across the treble bleed. This means the voltage on both ends of the treble bleed must be the same because the ends are connected together. If there's no difference in potential then no current will flow, thus, it can make no difference to the signal.

Now, if you do hear a difference, then obviously something is wrong. If you're sure the pot is clean, then the most likely culprits are the solder joints. Try "reflowing" them, and if that doesn't work, then wick the parts clean and try again.

I'm becoming convinced that most disagreements on the internet are due to bad solder joints. I also suspect that many of the improvements claimed by various mods are also due to redoing the solder joints when new parts are installed. ;)

dad gad
02-23-2011, 05:09 PM
I give up. This is just...
Bloody hell, bigfoot and spoon bending, I give up. Mr. Collins, I applaude your patience and knowledge. Unfortunately we are living in a time when people who are stupid insist on making it painfully obvious. I btw, use a .001 cap with no resistor on all my singles to great effect. Thanks again for dispelling myths, its the highest of endeavors in the age of stupidity

macmeda
02-23-2011, 05:58 PM
When I'm using my volume on the guitar with a fuzz that cleans up (which is always) there never seems to be a lack of treble when dialing back the volume.
I sold my Frailin Blues Specials and a set of WCR SR's before I realized it was the evil cap.


Talk to Billy at RS about them. He said someone started the rumor that you have to have one so they send them out with the upgrade kits but he would not have one in his guitar or recommend anyone else install one.


Anyone want a used cap for a treble bleed mod give me your address.

Tone_Terrific
02-23-2011, 08:29 PM
Lots of capacitors are microphonic, especially ceramics. The oil and wax caps much less so, but people probably aren't using small values in these types for treble bleeds.



Hanging a shorted out little cap on the signal line is like adding a little microphone, or antenna, as it (somehow, on its 2 little, but, effectively joined legs) creates a signal, now added to the existing signal, that is audible.

I'd never even thought of that. Most wouldn't. hmmm

diagrammatiks
02-23-2011, 08:51 PM
Cool...So now I am a hack as a tech as well as deaf... Thanks for your post.

You have convinced me.....:bow:dunno:jo

No one said you were deaf or a bad tech...

might not trust you for science though.

Sorry to call you out Mr. Collins but I have studied advanced quantum physics (and general relativity)...seriously, and I didn't envoke any change that might affect physics nor Planck's constant . And I can explain why, and am in perfect agreement with the physics and in fact I agree with you...let me explain. I have definitely removed a very high end treble component of the sound of the guitar by removing the treble bleed cap (and nothing else changed, same strings, pickups, etc.). A clanky high end metallic component of the guitar sound is no more. Kaput. Gone completely. It just ain't there. The volume is up full as is the tone when I made that assessment of course. I am very clear about this because it was so noticeable. High and clanky as my friend put it. But it is GONE now. Everything else is quite the same, it just gets darker quickly when the volume is rolled down and the tone as expected..

Nonetheless, for this to work with the laws of physics it clearly means my pots probably aren't up to spec either. Nonetheless the clanky metallic component of the tone was removed and I don't care. Works better with overdrives and fuzzes now since I am not amplifying the clank anymore. Might not be the case on every guitar, nor on those with perfectly speced pots, but I don't mind. Removing the treble bleed kit knocked it out of the park. And this is NO placebo effect - I have a Ph.D. in organic chemistry and I know a thing or two about biomedical research and physics, so I would not envoke such a startling response if it didn't work in this case. I'm now going back upstairs and play that non-spiky guitar now and grin with the satisfaction that I got lucky all the physics didn't go my way - and my pots are a little cheaply constructed....:)

someone got to it before me.

Guys a treble bleed really depends on the type of cap used and how it is wired and it's proximity to other components in the circuit.

It's true that the cap is out of the circuit with the volume rolled up but any time you have wires between 2 points there will be inductance between the wires and miller capacitance due to the materials used.

Not to mention as someone said before me that the cap itself might be microphonic, leaky or whatever.

It's better to tailor the values of the treble bleed to your guitar and your circuit. Use good quality caps, stay away from ceramics which change operating conditions depending on heat and humidity.

Again, there will always be some shift in the circuit depending on what's there and what's not.

Next time try just sticking a big ass bundle of hook up wire between the pins of your volume pot with it rolled up to 10. Guaranteed you'll hear a difference compared to the wire not being there.

Jackie Treehorn
02-23-2011, 11:06 PM
one more time....

A treble bleed is connected between the input and output lugs of the pot. When the pot is turned to "10", the wiper connected to the output lug touches the input lug. Unless you have gunk or corrosion on the parts, you have a dead short across the treble bleed. This means the voltage on both ends of the treble bleed must be the same because the ends are connected together. If there's no difference in potential then no current will flow, thus, it can make no difference to the signal.

Now, if you do hear a difference, then obviously something is wrong. If you're sure the pot is clean, then the most likely culprits are the solder joints. Try "reflowing" them, and if that doesn't work, then wick the parts clean and try again.

I'm becoming convinced that most disagreements on the internet are due to bad solder joints. I also suspect that many of the improvements claimed by various mods are also due to redoing the solder joints when new parts are installed. ;)

My meter says that's not true for every pot, and my other meter agrees. The worst offenders were the 2 long shaft 300k's I pulled from my mid 90's Les Paul which had between 300 ohms to 900 ohms between wiper and outer lugs. The 500k wasn't as bad, around 40 ohms on one end, around 100 at the other. The Fender style CTS were better still, I got 35 ohms on one I pulled out of my tele. Newer pots were much better. None of these pots were soldered in, I measured directly on the lugs.

I do like the solder joint theory more than the placebo, though.

korus
02-24-2011, 02:23 PM
Mr. Collins, you are an amazingly patient man.


FWIW, we put a treble bleed in all our guitars and never had one complaint. But, we don't use a big value cap. 220pf with no resistor, works well with all models.

It's easy enough to figure out what works or doesn't work for you. Just attach a couple short wires with alligator clips to the volume pot, and swap in caps while playing.

Or even better : attach a couple of a bit longer wires with alligator clips to the volume pot and connect these on the other side to a Super Switch with 5 different values of caps with/without the resistor parallel/series for an instant A/B/C/D/E test. This way you can compare different types of treble bleed/bypass - cap alone, cap/res in parallel, cap/res in series - and you can also find out the values for cap/res that work for you much faster.

EADGBE
02-24-2011, 02:56 PM
Use good quality caps, stay away from ceramics which change operating conditions depending on heat and humidity.


I've never heard that about ceramic caps before. What are some good quality caps?

Tone_Terrific
02-24-2011, 03:39 PM
I've never heard that about ceramic caps before. What are some good quality caps?
It could be that the effective environmental operating range of the caps is more stable than the operating range of many other guitar components (like wood, say) or the player.

hudpucker
02-24-2011, 04:05 PM
How about the TDPRI-approved 'fezz parka' mod?:

http://www.lilypix.com/photos/data/71ad16ad2c4d81f348082ff6c4b20768/2344_p39557.jpg


"You simply move the wire that goes from the outside lug of the volume pot to the tone pot to the center lug of the volume pot."

Jef Bardsley
02-24-2011, 05:29 PM
"You simply move the wire that goes from the outside lug of the volume pot to the tone pot to the center lug of the volume pot."
More commonly known as the "50's mod" (by people that can't spell '50s).

Use the Google search here, as "mod" is too short for the TGP servers to handle. :bonk

Myself, I still hear a treble boost when I turn the guitar up, and a severe bass loss when I turn it down (which might be okay on a Tele, but a Les Paul should have enough bass to frappé your gonads), plus whenever I adjust the volume, I have to re-adjust the tone, as it makes the controls interactive.

So, I don't think it "works as advertised" and is yet another example of the placebo effect (i.e., you hear what you expect to hear), but it's certainly popular and YMMV.

Tone_Terrific
02-24-2011, 06:47 PM
YMMV.

This is the source of mucho mis-info.
Liking the way something sounds or works after one does a mod and then attributing the change to a property of the mod that may be totally irrelevant to one's new perception.
Like that '50s mod. The assumption is made that it works 'as advertised' just because the player likes the results.
Sure, a perfectly good mod, if you like it, but do you understand why you like it?

OTOH, this is all pretty trivial stuff, even in a guitar tone-land.
Most players won't know or care, as long as things sort of sound ok.

Atmospheric
02-24-2011, 07:25 PM
Thanks Dave.

I find all this "I hate it=bad. It sucks. Anyone who likes this is a moron" talk pretty immature.

I don't happen to like black cars. Guess what? I don't buy black cars. I don't call people who do "morons."

Personally, I have treble bleeds in all my guitars and I love them for the reasons you list. I like the guitar to remain articulate at lower volumes and fatten up when wide open.

Sheesh. This place is becoming Harmony Central.

Different strokes... The effect is going to be different with different pickups, different pots, different guitars, effects, amps, amp settings, playing styles, and all those differences are going to be perceived as different levels of desirability for different players.

To be honest, it seems rather uncommon that I hear of players not liking a treble bleed circuit once they've tried it, though there are certainly some who prefer a bit more of the edge being taken off as they roll back the volume. If you actually find the tone getting notably brighter as you roll back, it's likely a sign that you're using to high value a capacitor for that particular pickup/rig setup.

Or just don't use one at all if you don't like it. It's a bit bold to try to declare or define all treble bleeds as ultimately "bad" for all setups and players though.

I still can't help but get the impression however, that there are some here who believe they may be hearing a difference with the volume all the way up, though posts haven't been described in enough detail to be clear on this. If this is indeed the case, then they are either hearing something entirely psychosomatic, or something was wired terribly wrong. The treble bleed circuit is of course entirely removed from the circuit with the volume at 10, and only has any effect as volume is rolled back.

Jef Bardsley
02-24-2011, 09:44 PM
Liking the way something sounds or works after one does a mod and then attributing the change to a property of the mod that may be totally irrelevant to one's new perception.
Like that '50s mod. The assumption is made that it works 'as advertised' just because the player likes the results.
Sure, a perfectly good mod, if you like it, but do you understand why you like it?
Well put, TT.

diagrammatiks
02-24-2011, 09:53 PM
I've never heard that about ceramic caps before. What are some good quality caps?

silver mica is generally more stable in pf ranges.

it's pretty easy to destroy a ceramic, or change it's operating conditions with a soldering iron if you aren't careful.

Obviously, the operating conditions inside of an amp are different then inside of a guitar but other materials don't exhibit a lot of the weaknesses of ceramics at audible frequencies.

David Collins
02-25-2011, 05:23 AM
silver mica is generally more stable in pf ranges.

it's pretty easy to destroy a ceramic, or change it's operating conditions with a soldering iron if you aren't careful.

Obviously, the operating conditions inside of an amp are different then inside of a guitar but other materials don't exhibit a lot of the weaknesses of ceramics at audible frequencies.

For what it's worth, when I set up tests where I want well controlled cap values, the ceramic disc caps I have to pick up with tweezers when I put them to the meter because even just the heat from my fingertips will often shift their values all over the place, far more than any other cap I've tried. Then I have to let them cool completely after soldering and check values again. Of course once they're in a guitar they will only be subject to ambient temperature changes, which is quite minor, but their inconsistency is still a valid concern.

For reasons I don't fully understand, monolithic ceramic caps don't seem to have this problem nearly as much, and can make a good alternative for cheap miniature caps for applications like this. Of course there are plenty of others like silver mica which are great too, but for those shopping at Radio Shack I think the monolithic ceramics are usually stocked and available in low values.

fezz parka
03-07-2011, 11:12 AM
More commonly known as the "50's mod" (by people that can't spell '50s).

Use the Google search here, as "mod" is too short for the TGP servers to handle. :bonk

Myself, I still hear a treble boost when I turn the guitar up, and a severe bass loss when I turn it down (which might be okay on a Tele, but a Les Paul should have enough bass to frappé your gonads), plus whenever I adjust the volume, I have to re-adjust the tone, as it makes the controls interactive.

So, I don't think it "works as advertised" and is yet another example of the placebo effect (i.e., you hear what you expect to hear), but it's certainly popular and YMMV.


It works for me. And it's works fine on my LP's too.:rotflmao

thedroid
03-07-2011, 01:30 PM
More commonly known as the "50's mod" (by people that can't spell '50s).

Use the Google search here, as "mod" is too short for the TGP servers to handle. :bonk

Myself, I still hear a treble boost when I turn the guitar up, and a severe bass loss when I turn it down (which might be okay on a Tele, but a Les Paul should have enough bass to frappé your gonads), plus whenever I adjust the volume, I have to re-adjust the tone, as it makes the controls interactive.

So, I don't think it "works as advertised" and is yet another example of the placebo effect (i.e., you hear what you expect to hear), but it's certainly popular and YMMV.

Isn't a treble boost when turned up what you hear WITHOUT a treble bleed mod?

If you like a brighter lead tone than you do rhythm, don't do a treble bleed mod.

If you use a fuzz pedal that thins the tone when you roll back volume and thickens it when you roll back up, don't do a treble bleed mod. It will be too much of a good thing.

If you want a lead tone that's thicker than your rhythm tone and you want to use your volume knob to get there, it might be for you.

If you want your guitar tone to be unaltered by the volume knob, a treble bleed might be for you.

And if you're considering it, use some alligator clips to take the mod in and out so you can hear exactly how it sounds. Play with it in for a while, then play with it out for a while. Try different caps and resistors -- they're relatively cheap.

Jef Bardsley
03-08-2011, 06:49 AM
Isn't a treble boost when turned up what you hear WITHOUT a treble bleed mod?
Why, yes, it is.

I was referring to the "'50s mod", which is often suggested as an alternative to using a treble bleed. While it does increase the treble, I don't think it replaces the need for a treble bleed. If you choose the right capacitor for a treble bleed, you can maintain the almost same resonant peak as you roll the guitar off, and if you use a parallel resistor, you can avoid the loss of bass just a cap incurs.

But, maybe I'm just too fussy. ;)

I think the rest of your statements sum things up rather well.

Seegs
03-08-2011, 07:10 AM
used em for awhile and swore by em...I also agree that my guitar now sounds better and especially with pedals...

after I clipped em out I learned how to use the tone and volumn knob to my advantage...

Chow,
Seegs

Rob Sharer
03-08-2011, 07:25 AM
I get paid to put 'em in....I get paid to take 'em out.

I'm the Sylvester McMonkey McBean of the treble bleed!

Don't really care for the things myself.

Rob

JimmyR
03-08-2011, 07:37 AM
I like 'em in some guitars, not in others. I recently put a .001 cap in parallel with a 150k resistor across the live lugs on my two Gretsch 6120s' master vol pots as prescribed by TV Jones and absolutely love the results. I used some parts I had from my amp builds, so the cap was a 400v(!) mallory type cap and the resistor was a 1w carbon film. For some reason Filter'trons get dark very quickly as you reduce the volume. This little mod works like a dream. I have been getting great results using the vol pots into either an Amp11 or Fetto OD pedal.

On the other hand I could never get my Tele to sound right with a treble bleed and used the vol pot more as a tone control than a volume once I got rid of the cap. But in my Gretsches the cap/resistor thing sounds great to me!

SoCalSteve
06-29-2011, 02:50 PM
I'm digging this thread back out because I'm feeling ornery today.

Actually, I'm resurrecting it because I just did the mod to my Agile LP copy and love the results!

I have this very dynamic Metro JTM45 and have gotten rid of my OD's since the amp really responds to picking and the guitar's volume control. However, the guitar loses too much definition when rolling back the volume and I wanted to try something else besides 50's wiring.

I went to Radio Shack to get the 220k resistor and 471pf cap like in the Mojotone vol. mod kit but the lowest cap they had was 1000pf, which I figured I might as well try. Very happy with the results.

Brett Valentine
06-29-2011, 08:05 PM
I actually like both, though I use the mods on most of my electrics. Think I might install the next one with a DPDT push/pull pot.

SoCalSteve
06-30-2011, 07:59 PM
It turns out the values I picked up 220k/1000pf are the same ones in the Acme humbucker kit. Got a chance to open the amp up today without the attenuator and the results with the mod are fantastic. Wish I'd looked into the mod sooner.

SoCalSteve
07-23-2011, 04:27 PM
Just did the mod to my SG with the same fantastic results. Same resistor/cap values as above. I had it wired 50's but there still wasn't enough clarity in the tone when turning down.

scr@tchy
07-23-2011, 06:53 PM
I was a single coil/non treble bleed/Fuzz Face user since forever, and that was the reason I took my treble bleeds out, because the Fuzz Face circuit does it for you and with the mod in you are going to Tinnythinsville on a tin toy train... with the guitar volume rolled back. How I loved the way the Fuzz Face clean up works, bright articulate rhythm to fat leads, but I would always have to have my fuzz pedal with me everywhere I went as it was part of my guitar volume knob.

Then I started to think , if I had a humbucker guitar with the right value treble bleed mod I would be able to get that effect (ie: thin sparkly rhythm to fat lead) anywhere anytime and with any sound... even a clean sound. All sounds except that is a Fuzz Face set up, but I would rather have the freedom of plugging into anything I want and not having to make sure my fuzz pedals were in my bag all the time. Not to mention endless searches for pedals that clean up 'just right'.

I know I am slow and people have been doing this for a long time, I play the guitar a lot and gear is something I always got lucky with. I wander around playing for a while and then wham, I see Hendrix in a video cleaning up his I'll dirt with his volume knob and the next 12 years this is all I know about gear or want to know. Now I am humbucker/treble bleed mod crazy. I will probably find out next about those elves that live in amp transformers and then it will be all about what kind of cat food to buy them.

Chris Rice
07-23-2011, 07:39 PM
How about the TDPRI-approved 'fezz parka' mod?:

http://www.lilypix.com/photos/data/71ad16ad2c4d81f348082ff6c4b20768/2344_p39557.jpg


"You simply move the wire that goes from the outside lug of the volume pot to the tone pot to the center lug of the volume pot."
I thought it sounded better back in 2006 when it was called the "Chris Rice" mod on TDPRI and on the old Don Mare forums.
:band

Actually, I thought it was hilarious that people called it that, as it was just an application of '50s LP wiring to teles.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wildricechris/untitled.jpg

Sounds great sometimes with some players, some guitars, some amps, some effects.
In general, I've found that most players don't prefer it, and it has not been standard wiring in Rice Custom Guitars for at least three years.

scr@tchy
07-23-2011, 08:01 PM
do you really need the resistor?

Rockledge
07-23-2011, 10:06 PM
A basic electrical concept is that current takes the path of least resistance.
If you wire a cap and resistor parallel to a total conductivity path, the current is going to essentially ignore the cap and resistor and follow the path of virtually no resistance.
That being the case, I can't see how a cap and resistor in parallel to the wiper path could possibly have any effect when the pot is set to provide 0 resistance.
Any lows that would be inhibited by the cap and resistor would, by basic electronic principal, simply follow the other path.

Jef Bardsley
07-24-2011, 12:01 AM
do you really need the resistor?
For a treble bleed on a humbucker, yes. Otherwise, when you roll the volume way down, you lose bass. A parallel resistor bleeds some of the full signal through (based on the ratio of the resistor value and the volume pot setting) and that replaces the bass at low volumes.

A resistor in series with the cap looks good on paper, but in actual circuits I haven't found it helpful.

scr@tchy
07-24-2011, 08:34 AM
For a treble bleed on a humbucker, yes. Otherwise, when you roll the volume way down, you lose bass. A parallel resistor bleeds some of the full signal through (based on the ratio of the resistor value and the volume pot setting) and that replaces the bass at low volumes.

A resistor in series with the cap looks good on paper, but in actual circuits I haven't found it helpful.

so when testing circuits, pick the cap first to get the desired treble content, then test resistors to tune the bass content? Will adding a resistor change the treble content at all?

I was playing a friend's PRS which only had a 180pf cap and I liked what it did sonically, I think I might like the bass roll off aspect as per my love for what a Fuzz Face does when you roll back the guitar volume. I am not wanting it to just keep the same tone as I roll back, I kind of want to morph into a more single coil-ish sound. Thoughts?

Jef Bardsley
07-24-2011, 09:17 AM
The parallel resistor will "water down" the treble bypass content by passing all frequencies. It will also change the taper of the volume pot a bit.

It's definitely an "adjust to taste" process. I've never seen a thread where people agree on the values. ;)

SoCalSteve
07-24-2011, 10:04 AM
I picked up a 1000pf cap to pair with my 220k resistor because that was the lowest value cap that Radio Shack had. Installed it and love the pairing. After doing a little research I found that these are the same values that Acme sells in a humbucker volume kit so I guess the value isn't as extreme as it initially seems.

scr@tchy
07-24-2011, 10:10 AM
I picked up a 1000pf cap to pair with my 220k resistor because that was the lowest value cap that Radio Shack had. Installed it and love the pairing. After doing a little research I found that these are the same values that Acme sells in a humbucker volume kit so I guess the value isn't as extreme as it initially seems.

what do you love about it? what pickup is it with?

Chris Rice
07-24-2011, 10:16 AM
1000pf (.001μF) was the standard value in '70s teles (with no resistor). Great with many humbuckers if you play mostly clean.

scr@tchy
07-24-2011, 10:27 AM
I think I am going to optimize my circuit for clean playing and take what I get when I use overdrive. Exciting stuff for a guitar volume knob junky, I would say that I have done at least 90% of all my clean guitar playing with the guitar volume rolled off and a Fuzz pedal on full, it's a very claustrophobic situation. I can't wait to start experimenting with all of this to really fine tune it all in and really explore all that my non fuzz gear has to offer.

I played my friend's PRS through a bunch of different distorted patches on a modeler and rolling back his pass modded volume knob allowed Ge fuzz type clean up on patches that normally wouldn't allow for that- stoked I was.

SoCalSteve
07-24-2011, 10:46 AM
What I love about it is that since I started playing single-channel NMV amps, this mod really lets me dial down my guitar volume and retain clarity that reduces the overdrive and gets pretty clean.

Right now, I'm using an SG with stock 490r/490t pickups with 500 CTS audio taper volume pots and stock tone pots. Even with 50's wiring the guitar sounded dull below about 9 on the volume knob. With the mod it stays clear all the way down to 0. The taper just seems way more "active" through the entire range.

I should add that I didn't change the 50's wiring - I just added the mod to it.

fezz parka
08-15-2011, 11:05 PM
I thought it sounded better back in 2006 when it was called the "Chris Rice" mod on TDPRI and on the old Don Mare forums.
:band

Actually, I thought it was hilarious that people called it that, as it was just an application of '50s LP wiring to teles.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/wildricechris/untitled.jpg

Sounds great sometimes with some players, some guitars, some amps, some effects.
In general, I've found that most players don't prefer it, and it has not been standard wiring in Rice Custom Guitars for at least three years.


Sorry bud, but I predate ya on TDPRI! http://www.tdpri.com/forum/255610-post5.html:beer (http://www.tdpri.com/forum/255610-post5.html)

FWIW, I learned it from Ted Greene and wish people would call it that.

Chris Rice
08-16-2011, 05:46 AM
Sorry bud, but I predate ya on TDPRI! http://www.tdpri.com/forum/255610-post5.html:beer (http://www.tdpri.com/forum/255610-post5.html)

FWIW, I learned it from Ted Greene and wish people would call it that.
Cool, I'm not trying to one up you! :beer

Troubleman
08-16-2011, 06:19 AM
I wouldn't automatically assume a treble-bleed mod is needed for every pickup (also worth noting - the amp used has a bit of influence as well). I recommend giving the pickup in question a thorough test-drive in a variety of situations (different amps, different pedals, etc) before installing. Some need it, some don't. I had a set of Fralin Vintage Hots in a Strat - tinny, icepick to the ears with those pups and a treble-bleed mod if the volume was rolled off more that 30% or so, especially if I rolled the volume off AND used (certain) overdrive pedals. Conversely, IMO Fender Texas Special Strat pups should come with the necessary resistor and cap for a treble-bleed mod it its box from the factory.

I have an overwound Voodoo TE59 in my Esquire - hot pup. Volume is on 10 for most solos, or when I want a spitting, snarling, rude Tele tone. For most rhythm and some lead parts I run it at about 75% or so on the volume pot, which is right around the area where it starts to muddy up. With a treble-bleed mod, the guitar is totally usable throughout the volume knob's travel. If necessary, I roll of some of the highs with the tone control. Thanks to the treble-bleed mod (and an amp that responds well to the guitar's volume control position) I can go from jangly Tom Petty or Pretenders-style rhythm tones (especially with janglebox compressor) to Brad Paisley-type twang, snap and bark, to screamin' James Gang-approved snarlin' tones - all at the twist of the volume knob.
That my friends, is tough to argue.

And - don't be afraid to use the instrument's tone control to take high frequencies.


my 3 pesos worth anyway


jb

moredirt
05-02-2013, 09:22 PM
This worked great for me on a jazzmaster. Obviously, everyone has their opinions on this subject, but this mod is as easy as it gets and well worth a shot to see if you prefer it over standard or treble-bleed configurations.

How about the TDPRI-approved 'fezz parka' mod?:

http://www.lilypix.com/photos/data/71ad16ad2c4d81f348082ff6c4b20768/2344_p39557.jpg


"You simply move the wire that goes from the outside lug of the volume pot to the tone pot to the center lug of the volume pot."

Lewguitar
05-02-2013, 09:30 PM
I had a Fender Nocaster that was so bright I thought it needed new pickups. When I started to take it apart to install the new pickups I noticed the treble bleed circuit the previous owner (or Fender?) had wired in. The whole problem was that darned cap across the volume control. I do like the 50's mod though and use it on all of my guitars (except my EJ Strat) to retain treble when I turn down the guitar's volume control.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa468/Goldenbirdcarole/Guitar%20Wiring%20Diagrams/132767_132496216814371_132448763485783_213459_1114 73_o.jpg

vortexxxx
05-02-2013, 10:29 PM
50's wiring is the way to keep the treble and keep your guitar sounding great. I don't understand why many manufactures don't use 50s wiring. Every guitar I've owned that had a treble bleed sounded much better with 50's wiring. All those great sounding guitars from the 50's had 50's wiring ;)

scr@tchy
05-02-2013, 10:37 PM
Since my post in this thread, I have put in a 220pf cap on my neck humbucker and a 150pf cap on my bridge humbucker. These values were arrived at through trial and error. The end result is exactly what I was hoping for, as I roll back the volumes the treble content stays and it loses some bass. When used with any overdriven sound, this creates a very interesting clean single coil type sound for rhythms which gets fatter and fatter as I roll up for leads or more distorted rhythms. Just like a fuzz face and single coil pick ups. Awesome.

When I use it with a clean sound the results are the same but without of course the overdrive. Very natural sounding and extremely versatile.

dazco
05-02-2013, 11:19 PM
Fact is, there are tons of variables between your strings and the speaker and also the way in which you use your gear that will determine whether a TB works for you or not. If anyone here who hates them played my guitars and amp and played the kind of music play and used the pickups and volume knob the same way I do to obtain the sounds I need, they'd all of a sudden find a TB indispensable. If i played clean fenders for example i wouldn't want a TB in my guitar either. And ALL the other factors in your rig will determine whether you like it or not. I'm positive that the main reason some here hate them and some like them is because thier rig determines which they like. You can literally change a single component in an amp in some cases and end up finding the TB in your guitar is now thin and harsh. And heres a great example of how your gear will determine whether you like TB circuits. I have a tele with WRHB pickups and i have a very bright value with NO resistor in it. A TB setup that usually will make turning your guitar down an exersize in ice pick to the nth degree. Yet in that guitar due to the pickups it sound fat and full when it's on 5. In any of my other guitars that would be unusable. In the tele if i remove that cap, turning down is like playing a bass with the tone control rolled down. It's unusable.

All that said, you have to also note that I and many others use a TB to roll out guitars down to go from distortion to clean. Lets not get this confused with those who use clean or slightly dirty to clean exclusively. A TB is NOT going to be the same thing for them and is far more likely to sound thin and plain bad. It really is a matter of your rig and how you use it that will determine if you like them or not. And what that means is that anyone here is capable of liking them or hating them depending on many factors. I can't live w/o them because w/o them i lose my ability to be able to get most any tone one could ever need with a single channel amp and a strat and nothing more. Lastly, note that if you do not play in a band your requirements are also FAR less likely to need a TB. My rig and the way i use it gets completely lost in the mix when i turn down to clean up just by having a value of TB thats not cutting enough, let alone none at all. I'd have one tone all nite....medium gain distortion !

In short, the key to making a TB work is that it must be tuned to the particular guitar, amp, playing style. Otherwise forget it.....it will never sound right.

slopeshoulder
05-03-2013, 12:49 AM
A treble bleed cap alone will thin out. IMO you need a cap AND a resistor, both at the right values. I added Don Mare's circuit to two teles that have Don mare pickups, and it's great. No mud as you roll down, AND it doesn't thin out or sound brighter. The pot is useful from 1-10, and I can now FINALLY ride gain from the volume pot, phrase by phrase if I want, and it always sounds good.

HeeHaw
06-12-2013, 12:08 PM
I modded my strat with a treble bleed circuit years ago and always thought it sounded thin. Recent recordings of my live show revealed as much. I snipped it out and it has never sounded better.

Nitroman
10-21-2013, 09:57 AM
I just want to respond to one point only.
Everyone is right who said that a treble bleed mod Does indeed affect the sound of the guitar with the Volume Pot All The Way Up On 10.
This is because potentiometers have a limiting effect on sound on their own.
If you were to straight wire the pickup to the input jack, the signal would have very little tone sucked from it because it's going through a straight circuit or pipeline.
But when you use a potentiometer, the signal has to go through a device that will redirect the signal and add resistance and suck the tone.
So even when the volume is on 10, the hot lug has to flow to the end pickup lug through the potentiometer and that creates resistance.
So when you use a treble bleed capacitor between these 2 lugs, at that frequency and above, a more pure signal is flowing from lug to lug than the signal flowing through the potentiometer and that's why the guitar sounds brighter with the volume on 10.
It's the same reason that hand wired amps sound better than those with circuit boards. This is because of less restricted current flow.
For anyone that wants to respond to this question:
I have a 62' reissue Strat with fat 50's pickups. When I switched from the stock CTS pots to the top of the line Allesandro Pots made by PEC, (250K 1 Watt Military Spec), the guitar sounded Incredible on 10, but got muddy when rolling back the volume, so I did the alligator clips trick thing and found a .001pf Orange Drop Capacitor worked best. My question is on the Resistor?
I tend to like the resistor in Paralell with the capacitor instead of in Series,
So I went to a 100K 1 Watt Carbon Composition Resistor and the guitar still sounds too bright.
I obviously need a higher value resistor, like a 120K, 150K, 200K, 220K, 240K, 270K, 330K, 390K or 470K Resistor?
1) Which value do you suggest based on the Pot Value, and I know that I need to experiment?
2) When I increase the value of the resistor to a higher "K", what does it do to the flow though my treble bleed capacitor?
3) Very Importantly, is my Resistor Wattage wrong and I should be going with a 1/2 watt Resistor, because maybe the 1 Watt Resistor is allowing too much electron flow in comparison to the 1/2 Watt Resistor?
(Even at the same value of say a 100k 1 Watt Resistor compared to a 100K 1/2 watt Resistor?)
I'm a guitar player playing 33 years with very good soldering skills,
But I have no electronics degree, and some of you are very knowledgeable on this forum, so what do you directly suggest and please answer these questions as to what would do what?

Thanks, Jim

slopeshoulder
10-21-2013, 10:10 AM
I modded my strat with a treble bleed circuit years ago and always thought it sounded thin. Recent recordings of my live show revealed as much. I snipped it out and it has never sounded better.

I have treble bleeds in four of mine, and they are fat, warm, juicy, and clear. Never sounded better.

drbob1
10-21-2013, 10:17 AM
I thought about doing it on my Wilshire reissue that's already pretty heavily modded, then decided to do "vintage wiring" first (where the tone pot is fed from the middle lug of the volume pot, not the hot lug) and it gave me all the treble I need as a fiddle with volumes. I don't have a guitar that gets so dark I need the treble bypass.

hookstratton
12-06-2013, 10:51 PM
I just read all of this thread, and I'm pretty sure all the folks who disliked the sound didn't mention the values they clipped out - it would be great to know the actual values of caps and/or resistors.

I'm gonna give it a try this weekend.

bluesking55
12-07-2013, 12:12 PM
Im gonna read every page of this. Fralin sells me his treble bleed kits and every strat/ tele I own[ed] or wired up for someone gets 1.

So what pots should i get to help with that? orrrrr?????????????

icr
12-07-2013, 12:25 PM
What am I to "beware" of? That the capacitor would have an effect on the signal when shorted across the leads?

RJLII
12-07-2013, 04:14 PM
My Nocaster has a treble bleed right from the factory. It's very effective with the Lollar Charlie Christian pickups I installed. No complaints at all.

ledzep618
12-07-2013, 04:24 PM
I can't imagine not having a treble bleed on my Les Paul...not having it makes the volume controls pretty much useless for cleaning up the amp, unless you want it to become a dark, muddy mess....

fatcat87
12-07-2013, 04:55 PM
Agree about the treble bled circuit response to pedals. I guessed treble bled circuit only works well with an amp already cranked up, thus reducing the volume slightly you can reduce the gain from your volume control while filtering out the highs .