Question for Chiba: P94 Vs Phat Chat?

[beNsteR]

Dear Mr Chiba

Been reading quite a lot of your posts and i see that you've had experience with both Gibson P94s and Duncan Phat Cats.

I am currently jonesing for humbucker-sized P90 replacement pickups for my McCarty IRW. What i am looking for is something that as close to authentic vintage P90 tone as possible, and would work well with the rosewood neck (worried about muddiness).

Tonal ballparks i am aiming for include '56 Les Paul Goldtop, Les Paul Special, and IRW McCarty Soapbar tone.

I have written off Rio Bastards as some have commented that they are made too deep for a PRS pickup route, and even if it fits there will be very limited adjustability. Also will not consider HD Z90's as they don't have adjustable polepieces. i also do not think that both of these were intended to sound like a real P90, but rather their own twist or take on the P90 theme.

So it boils down to the Gibson P94s and the Duncan Phat Cats, both of which are advertised to go after the vintage P90 tone.

*The P94s are advertised by Gibson to be made exactly like a P90, with the same Alnico V magnets and Enamel wire as their vintage P90s.

*The Phat Chats have Alnico II magnets and nickel covers.

Any opinions on how they would sound in a IRW McCarty? I'm not looking for better/worse.. just the differences..

Thanks so much for hearing me out.. on a quest for tone here..

Anyone else who has experience with these, please feel free to chip in too =)

[Jim Soloway]

I'm not Chiba, but I do have a suggstion, at least to llok at: the DiMarzio Bluesbucker. It's a P90 sound alike with a dummy coil that cancels hum. We just put a pair in a guitar last week and we were all completely blown away by them. Here's a link to a thread I posted pn the soundclip page. There are a few more details and a clip in the thread.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63933

[WayneM]

http://www.harmonicdesign.net/allpages/gibsons.html#vp-90

Harmonic Design VP-90's (vintage P-90's) - they might be everything that you are looking for....but not raw or brittle.

[Rama]

Phat Cats to me just sound like a p-90 with...more...more of everything, which may or may not be desirable. I love em.

[bluegrif]

For what it's worth, I have Phat Cats in my PRS Singlecut and they sound great. And I love P-90s. They don't seem as noisy as a vintage P-90 and they definitely get the vibe. I haven't tried P-94s but I suspect it'd be a close contest. I also think the Phat Cats have a cleaner look.

[erksin]

I have owned the P-94s and thought they were pretty flat and uninspiring.

I replaced them with the HD Z-90s and they are fantastic sounding pups. I appreciate the fact that you want something tonally closer to real P-90, and maybe the Phat Cat is the pup - but the Z-90 is really incredible...

You might try calling Pete Biltoft at Vintage Vibe Guitars - he makes a HB-sized P-90 type pup (it's not currently listed on his site). Since he winds everything himself, he can probably help you get pretty darn close. Cheaper than either the Duncan or Gibson stuff and the quality is A+.

Another maker is Stephens Design, you might give him a call as well.

Hope this helps!

[T.Wesley]

Sorry it took me so long to get in here - I was out of town the last day or so.

Everybody thinks/hears differently, but for my money the P-94 is a better sounding pickup than the Phat Cat. FOR ME, the PC has too much bite/edge in the top end and sounds a bit harsh.

The P-94 is made like a P-90 but there's some important differences. Metal baseplate, the partly metal cover, and the size jump to mind - and those things will have tonal affects overall.

I bought a 2002 IRW McCarty in 2003 and put P-94s in it. Had to remove some wood in the neck pocket to get it to mount properly. I used that guitar for probably 2-3 months, and a friend heard it at one of my gigs, then asked to borrow it for some recording he did. When he came back to my house, he didn't bring the guitar, he brought his checkbook and said 'name the price, I have to have that guitar'. Same basic thing happened with a Les Paul Studio I put P-94s in. My current LP Custom has P-94s in it and my friends are constantly asking to borrow it to record with.

My guitar with Phat Cats, though, I can't seem to give away. Everybody that plays it says 'oh, that's nice' in the same tone of voice you might tell a buddy 'yeah, your sister's ok' when he's trying to set you up with her and she's, you know, funny looking or something. The guitar itself plays great, balances perfectly, and all that - but it's plugged-in tone is simply lacking. The same guitar sounds huge with humbuckers in it, BTW. It's a late-80s Yamaha SBG-200, a flat-topped sorta-SG copy.

I like P-94s so much that I spec'd a triplet of them for my next custom Thorn, and every time I advise somebody to buy them I always give my 'if you hate them, I'll buy them off you' line. To date, I've never had to buy any P-94s from disgruntled advisees :D

I wouldn't call either pickup muddy, though, so if muddiness is your bane, either will do the job. I think the P-94 has a more vintage, smoother tone to it and the PC a more modern, edgy tone to it. I definitely prefer the former.

If you give me a week or two, I can post a new song my band's recorded where all my guitar tracks were done with my P-94 loaded LP Custom.

--chiba

[beNsteR]

Thanks for the replies guys! And thanks, Chiba, for your comprehensive review of the P94. Looks like i'm quite set on getting a set of P94's. Called up the local dealer, and they have both black and cream colored sets in stock. I think i'll go with the black ones for my McCarty Tobacco 'Burst McRosie.

PS: Chiba, would you happen to have any photos of your old McCarty IRW with the P94's installed? Just curious on how mine would look..

[beNsteR]

Oh Chiba, BTW...

When you said you had to remove wood in your McCarty's neck pickup route, was it horizontally or vertically?

Also, was it due to:

1. The pickup polepieces being too long,

2. the physical height/depth of the pickup itself, or

3. the size of the mounting brackets?

[beNsteR]

bump :D

[beNsteR]

I went out to buy a set of black/chrome P94s today..

Got my guitar tech to install them.. The neck pickup fit the route OK but as for the bridge pickup..

The mounting bracket is too deep for the bridge pickup route in my McCarty. Set all the way down, the pickup height was so high that the strings were touching the top of the pickup.

My tech said that there were only 2 options: Deepen the route on the guitar (remove wood), or modify the mounting bracket on the pickup.

Not wanting to do anything to my beloved guitar, i chose the former. My tech will cut off the end of the mounting bracket, bend a new curve for it, and redrill a new hole for the screw. This should allow the pickup to sit much lower. He is a very competent and professional tech, so i have no worries. Will get my guitar back tomorrow, i hope.

CAN'T WAIT TO PLAY IT, ARGHHHH!!! :(

[T.Wesley]

Horizontally - the legs on the P-94 are longer than PRS pickups, so I just had to gut a little wood out of the leg-holes in the pickup cavity.

--chiba

[beNsteR]

Yeah, Chiba, it's the legs.. my tech advised me to let him shorten them rather than remove wood from the guitar.

Funny to see that the bridge pickup route of my McCarty was too shallow and the neck route was ok, whereas the neck route of your McCarty was too shallow and the bridge was ok. Mine's a 2003 model. Hmm.. :confused:

I felt that the stock cream pickup mounting rings would look a little weird with the chrome and black P94s, too many clashing colors? so i got a set of black pickup mounting rings to go with the P94s.. I think it's gonna be a whole new look. Will post pics when i get my guitar back! :D

[T.Wesley]

Here's what mine looked like w/black & gold P-94s. (http://www.unlikelyprofessor.com/gallery/crackwood/DSC01672_1)

--chiba

[amper]

Chiba, thanks for the comparo notes. I've been thinking about those two pickups as well for an LP build-up...

[beNsteR]

Hi guys! TONE REPORT + photos!!!

Have been playing my McCarty IRW with the P-94's at home for a week or so now. My tech had to modify the bridge P94 to get it to fit the shallow bridge pickup route of the guitar, and it works fine now.

I was quite skeptical about the pickups initially, being G*bson products and all, :p but once i heard them in my guitar, i found that Chiba's rave reviews about these pickups were really really true!

The neck pickup is pure smokey jazz when played clean, and sounds like a luscious, thick dark chocolate milkshake when overdriven. And it retains a lot of clarity and articulation/pick attack under high gain!

The neck+bridge position is sweet and chimey, and overdrives really really well, sounds like a sweet old goldtop les paul to my ears.

The bridge pickup punches like there's no tomorrow! Having had stock McCarty pickups as well as a Duncan Pearly Gates in this guitar before the P94s, i would say that the P94 outpunches both of these pickups. It gives a really good bottom end wallop when i play classic hard rock rhythms, and it showcases the low-end response of the rosewood neck very well.

These P94s sound NO WAY like the Duncan P90's that came in the Custom 22 soapbar (maple neck) that i used to own. Much more alive+punchy sounding. The Duncans in the soapbar weren't as clear, and lacked punch in comparison. :confused:

i really like the sound of this guitar now a lot more than the Custom 22 soapbar. That guitar sounded harsh (bright maple neck+ middish P90s?) compared to this one. IMHO of course, maybe it was just not my cup of tea.

My guitar tech commented that these pickups (played through an amp) made the guitar sound much more like its unplugged acoustic tone than the other 2 pickups. I couldn't disagree with him. I brought it to my local guitar store hangout and let a few of the local musicians play it, and they raved about how 'classic rock' this guitar sounded.

Both pickups are very responsive to volume/tone controls as well as amp EQ. I could easily get it to bite like the fattest tele on the planet, or sing like a Santana model. I haven't played it live, but am really looking forward to doing so!!!

I have not played a McCarty IRW soapbar before, but i'd reckon that they'd sound pretty close to my guitar..

So, in conclusion, P94's + Rosewood Neck = TONE MONSTER! :dude Highly Recommended!!! (if you can live with the fact that they're Gibsons :p )

Photos of my guitar here:
http://community.webshots.com/album/219027503UogVhQ

Edited link

[hans-jürgen]

Originally posted by beNsteR
I felt that the stock cream pickup mounting rings would look a little weird with the chrome and black P94s, too many clashing colors? so i got a set of black pickup mounting rings to go with the P94s.. I think it's gonna be a whole new look. Will post pics when i get my guitar back! :D
These pictures might give you an idea how cream P-94 with gold "covers" and pole pieces look in a brown sunburst Tokai Love Rock LS120 (first under neon light, second with flash):

http://bluezzbastardzz.kilu.de/ls120_body.jpg

http://bluezzbastardzz.kilu.de/ls120_body_flash.jpg

In the meantime I also made a comparison with several humbuckers on the Tokai forum with samples for each pickup in that guitar:

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4630

[Jon Silberman]

Originally posted by beNsteR
Yeah, Chiba, it's the legs.. my tech advised me to let him shorten them rather than remove wood from the guitar.

FWIW, shortening the legs is very much "minor surgery" as PUP mods go, you made the right decision, don't give it a moment's additional thought. :AOK

[Jon Silberman]

BTW, threads like this one drive me nuts. I have a 2nd pair of Z90s (this set in black) on order now for this guitar (Godin LGX-SA). I love the same PUPs in my Reverend Rocco but after speaking with Chiba by phone and then reading his written P94 review here, now I want those, too! :mad: :D

http://pic10.picturetrail.com/VOL326/682310/1133497/13157357.jpg

http://pic10.picturetrail.com/VOL326/682310/1133497/13157341.jpg

[-kk-]

Originally posted by Chiba
Here's what mine looked like w/black & gold P-94s. (http://www.unlikelyprofessor.com/gallery/crackwood/DSC01672_1)

--chiba

WOW, that is some sexy wood! I feel gas coming.

Jon, that Godin looks good in yellow, wow... I dont know why but looks very italian-chic to me in this color?!

Bernster, i see the noise level in the island nation has just increased a notch :D

[beNsteR]

Originally posted by -kk-
Benster, i see the noise level in the island nation has just increased a notch :D

Heh heh.. you bet!
Full time P90 fan now.. check out my latest P90 acquisition!!

http://community.webshots.com/album/323492353OpwULV

P90s = Rock & Roll!!! :D

[-kk-]

nice... I just got a 3xP90 custom made as well, waiting delivery.... full report to come.

[Jon Silberman]

Originally posted by -kk-
Jon, that Godin looks good in yellow, wow... I dont know why but looks very italian-chic to me in this color?!

It's actually not yellow at all but much closer to the 2nd photo. Flash pix - you just can't rely on 'em! :jo

[edgarallanpoe]

Let me give you guys something else to think about.

The Duncan Phat Cat was originally designed for Hamer USA guitars. There was a point where the only way to get these pups was to get a Hamer Newport. However, the demand quickly made that impossible to maintain and Duncan released the pup to the masses via their "Custom Shop".

Here is where things get interesting....and as a disclaimer, this is all speculation on my part.

Before the release of the Newport, and consequently *before* the design of the Phat Cat. Hamer USA made a guitar with Haeussel pickups. It was only a single guitar, and it was a raffel gift to a lucky Hamer Fan Club member.

IMHO...and remember that this is speculation....

Hamer USA liked the Haeussel pickups a lot, but realized that there was now way that he could supply the volume of pickups that Hamer USA would demand. Hence, they turned to Duncan to create something like the Haeussel.

All of this is peculation but it makes sense for the following reasons...

1. Hamer USA made a guitar with Haeussel pickups before the Duncan Phat Cats were invented.
2. The Phat Cats sound *enormously* like the Haeussel pickup.

I have owned both the Haeussel and the Duncan, and I would still give the nod to the Haeussel.

In any event....they are worth checking out at the following address.

http://www.haeussel.com/

[tms13pin]

I've got a pair of Rio Grande 'bastards on the way. I think
I'm going to put them into my Godin LGX-T. Jon, have you
decided how you're going to do the switching with your LGX-SA?
Going to switch to a 3 pos switch?

I'm thinking of sticking with my 5-way and trying to get an out-of-
phase position in there as well.

--Tom

[beNsteR]

Originally posted by tms13pin
I've got a pair of Rio Grande 'bastards on the way. I think
I'm going to put them into my Godin LGX-T. Jon, have you
decided how you're going to do the switching with your LGX-SA?
Going to switch to a 3 pos switch?

I'm thinking of sticking with my 5-way and trying to get an out-of-
phase position in there as well.

--Tom

Get a special 4-way Tele switch. the 5 way would have 1 useless setting (i think).

[Jon Silberman]

That's exactly what I plan to, same as I did with my Reverend Rocco, a 4-way Tele switch with the 4th position being both PUPs in series for a super big, fat lead tone. In fact, the switch is on order now along with the Z90s.

BTW, funny thing is that when I described this to Scott Petersen by email, he replied with a mild skepticsm along the lines of, "I'm not sure about that, the Z90s are quite hot to begin with." But it's really, really worked out well for me. The tone is super fat and somewhat dark but, like I said, it works for when you want a Les Paul neck PUP-like (that's "like," as in "in the general ballpark" ;) ) lead tone on the fly.

And in the case of my Rocco, one of the two mini-toggles is set up as a blower switch (bypasses all of the pots) so I can add back in some extra "bite" to the both PUPs in series setting when I want it.

P.S. The 2nd minitoggle is set up as a phase switch. It's kinda cool to have that option available but I have to tell ya, I've jammed with that guitar several times now and not had occassion yet to use the out of phase sound.

[tms13pin]

Good suggestions I was gonna do a phase switch in there just
to have it, or wire the 5-way to have front, both, middle, and
phase (and one repeat of the front).

I'll have to think about it, the series idea seems cool. I don't
have any experience with P90's. I'm still deciding if I'm gonna
keep my LGX-T or not. Much as I love it, I have some other
things that handle what I used it for, so that's why I was
considering the P90 change.

--Tom

[rubytopaz]

I joined the Gear Page, so that I could post this because, when I was trying to decide what Humbucking sized P-90 pickups to put in one of my SGs (actually an Epiphone '66 G-400 specially made for Guitar Center), I Googled and came up with this thread and reading all the posts was very helpful, so I want to put in my two cents to help anyone else who is trying to figure out what to do. I figure the more info out there, the better (easier to make an informed decision). I figured since you guys were helpful, I'd try to do the same. Anyway, My band (Ruby Topaz) has been around for a long time and we're an original band, but at rehearsal we love to play covers of our influences (Zeppelin, Queen, Who, Beatles, Zappa, Alice Cooper, Elo, etc.). I have 26 guitars and an extensive rig built around the Line 6 Vetta amp (there is a pic and list of my equipment, as well as downloads of originals and equipment demos of the Hop Hed Fuzztone and RSB treble booster on my site: www.rubytopaz.com (http://www.rubytopaz.com)). I was going for the Woodstock/Live at Leeds Townshend sound. I chose the Phat Cats. I put them in and ran them through the Hiwatt 100 Custom model in my Vetta (I also did one with the Hiwatt and a Marshall 18 watt combo model which sounded awsome, very "Who's Next"). This thing sounded exactly like the sound of "A Quick One While He's Away" from Rock n Roll Circus/Kids Are Alright. I had to crank it up close to the strings (I use very light strings). Full, cruchy and complex. Love them, but like the idiot that I am, I had to search for an even better tone. I read very good reviews of the Kent Armstrong pickups, so I bought them. I replaced the Phat cats and what I heard was a very hot pickup that was reminicent of some SG juniors, Les Paul Juniors and TV models, with pickups that must have been overwound, that I played in the early 70's. Very hot, very crunchy, but...the Townshend sound was gone. The subtlety when you pick lightly was gone and the complex crunch and growl, when you hit it hard was gone. Well, I put the Phat Cats back in and I couldn't be happier. I love them. They are not a particularly hot pickup, but they have a wide range when using the right sound for it (amp, etc.) Of course I went into more debt buying another guitar to put the Armstrongs in (sick, isn't it?). Well, there's my info for anyone who cares. Hope this helps some one trying to figure it out. I know it's so subjective and eveyone's guitars, strings and the fact that pickups from the same company and the same model will differ in sound from one to the next, but I know reading all your comments helped me.

[chocolatebuddha]

In the same spirit, here's something I posted some time back on the LP Forum re: humbucker-sized P-90's -- hope someone finds it useful:

LPF Tone Zone: Humbucker sized P90s?

A timely thread -- a friend and I just carried out an obsessive HB-sized P-90/P-90 like HB shootout to see what we liked best. At the outset, let me say that P-90s are my favored pu's, so I have been in search of their HB-sized sonic relatives for the last 4 or 5 years. Here are the results (completely subective of course) - The competing pu's (all properly paired sets for Nk and Br, RWRP in cases that apply):

Single Coils: Gibson P-94s, Kent Armstrong WPU900Cs, Harmonic Design Z-90s, Seymour Duncan Phat Cats, Rio Grande (Fat) Bastards

Humbuckers: Dec '04 Timbuckers, Dimarzio Bluesbuckers, Dimarzio Humbuckers From Hell

The pu's were swapped in and out of the following guitars that would be considered within the reach of an average dedicated tone nut: '02 LP R8, two '99 LP Standards, '85 SG Standard, '95 335 Dot RI, '81 335 Pro, '00 Epi LP Hollowbody Ltd. Ed.

These combinations were normed against the tone and response of the following genuine classics (all stock, except for the melody maker): '57 LP Special (single cut), '59 LP Special (double cut), '60 LP Special (double cut), '72 LP Goldtop '58 (like a '54 with the single wrapover tailpiece), mid '60's Melody Maker refitted with modern (new) dog-eared P-90's

All played thru these amps: '62 Brownface Pro, '65 BF Pro Reverb, '59 Bassman RI, Kendrick 2410 (4x10 tweed bassman clone), Kendrick 2112 (5e3 deluxe clone), Matchless Brave 1x12, Peavey Delta Blues 2x10 (re-tubed and re-speakered), UniValve (with all-Mullard EL34 and ECC83's) thru a Marshall 4x12 cab, Marshall JCM900 2x12 combo

The outcomes:

Harmonic Design Z-90s - Like P-90s on steroids. All the grittiness, detail and focus are there -- stinging highs, punchy mids, including the piano string bottom and growl -- but with incredible harmonic spread, girth and body compared with the vintage P-90's. Clear and articulate when clean, angry and nasty when pushed. More depth, volume and complexity than the real deal with less noise. These have the all important "organic" and dynamic characteristics. Equally great as a rhythm or lead pickup.

Seymour Duncan Phat Cats - Everything said about the Z-90s applies here too. In fact, it's remarkable and a bit disconcerting how similar they sound. A great plus is that these pu's have nickel covers (not an option for the HD's) which preserve somewhat a vintage look. Also very reasonable pricewise.

Kent Armstrong WPU900Cs - More well behaved that the real deal -- with slightly attenuated highs and compression by comparison. Definitely in the neighborhood, but with a bit less dynamics and spread. Looks very much like the Phat Cats -- great price!

Gibson P-94s - Most similar tonally to the vintage P-90s, but with slightly less detailed highs as with the Armstrongs. Again, a bit more civilized. Familiar but unconventional looks -- kind of like a DeArmond or a 60's european make.

Rio Grande Bastard and Fat Bastard - Normed against the real P-90s, these pu's seemed dull, muddy, overly compressed and middy. In fact, they sounded more like average conventional humbuckers than the humbuckers in the shootout. Lots of volume but terribly poor dynamics and no "3-D ness" to the sound. Quite disappointing, which made me suspect that there may be something wrong with this set given how many people seem to like this pu. Ironically, it has the best cosmetics of the single coil bunch -- great looking construction and plating.

Timbuckers - Am convinced that these must be as close as any recently made 'buckers will ever get to the soul of a vintage P-90. Of course there is the expected attenuation in the highs, but in this case it is only ever slightly less so. Warmer than a P-90 and rightly so, they nevertheless have those clear, articulate, organic, complex and dynamic qualities that P-90s share and makes these pickups' reputation on the LPF so well deserved. Plus the less noise. For all you Timbucker and genuine PAF players who have never wandered into P-90 territory, you're 85% there already -- pick up some real P-90's and see if in fact these possess the tone you've been chasing all your lives... and then some.

Dimarzio Bluesbuckers - These claim to simulate P-90s. They are clearer than most 'buckers, but they don't quite get there. Having a more compressed sonic signature than the real deal P-90, they also break up earlier and lose a bit of focus. Nice tone on its own terms, but doesn't have that throaty, vocal quality.

Dimarzio Humbuckers From Hell - Makes no claims to be in P-90 territory, and so they aren't. Having said that, these are very clean, bright, and articulate pickups that have a decidedly modern quality verging on a clinical, studio-like sound. Very un-bucker sounding and much closer to a modern Fender vibe. Can have an "acoustic-like" quality to it. In fact I ended up leaving it in the neck slot of the 335 Pro with the Bluesbucker in the bridge, which makes for a truly versatile guitar -- the blended sound is great.

THE WRAP: If sonic faithfulness to real P-90s is your bag, the Gibson P-94s almost gets you there. You just have to contend with whether you like the look -- in our book, we'd really rather just go with the P-90 guitars because they still do sound and feel better.

Tims are Tims. What can we say? In an earlier HB shootout, these demolished BB's, '57 Classics, T-tops, Holmes', Fralins, Antiquities, Lovers, Voodoos, Dimarzio PAFS, you name it. Tims were really close to real PAFs and we liked them precisely because they both approached those qualities that we loved in vintage P-90s, despite their being 'buckers.

The real revelation in terms of HB-sized single coils were the Duncan Phat Cats and the Harmonic Design Z-90s -- they are P-90s and more -- a class unto themselves. Cut, sting, detail, balls, punch, warmth, roundness. It's like you poured some PAF into a glass of Tele bridge, garnished it with a Gretsch Fillter'tron, and stirred it with a piano string. A tone alchemist's fantasy. If you indulge yourself, you may never touch another 'bucker again ('cept for Tims).

Postscript: The P-90 guitars showed themselves to be truly self referential, all being closer tonally to one another than any of the others ever got. But perhaps because of other factors like instrument construction, age, etc., we had our distinctions nevertheless:

'57 LP Special (single cut) - most "open" and warm sounding
'59 LP Special (double cut) - the "true" reference, lots of "body"
'60 LP Special (double cut) - angry and nasty, most stinging tone
'72 LP Goldtop '58 / '54 - most civilized, in control
Mid '60's Melody Maker w/ modern P-90's - sounding somewhat "new", most one-dimensional and least complex

[nb_fan]

In the same spirit, here's something I posted some time back on the LP Forum re: humbucker-sized P-90's -- hope someone finds it useful:

LPF Tone Zone: Humbucker sized P90s?

A timely thread -- a friend and I just carried out an obsessive HB-sized P-90/P-90 like HB shootout to see what we liked best. At the outset, let me say that P-90s are my favored pu's, so I have been in search of their HB-sized sonic relatives for the last 4 or 5 years. Here are the results (completely subective of course) - The competing pu's (all properly paired sets for Nk and Br, RWRP in cases that apply):

Single Coils: Gibson P-94s, Kent Armstrong WPU900Cs, Harmonic Design Z-90s, Seymour Duncan Phat Cats, Rio Grande (Fat) Bastards

Humbuckers: Dec '04 Timbuckers, Dimarzio Bluesbuckers, Dimarzio Humbuckers From Hell

The pu's were swapped in and out of the following guitars that would be considered within the reach of an average dedicated tone nut: '02 LP R8, two '99 LP Standards, '85 SG Standard, '95 335 Dot RI, '81 335 Pro, '00 Epi LP Hollowbody Ltd. Ed.

These combinations were normed against the tone and response of the following genuine classics (all stock, except for the melody maker): '57 LP Special (single cut), '59 LP Special (double cut), '60 LP Special (double cut), '72 LP Goldtop '58 (like a '54 with the single wrapover tailpiece), mid '60's Melody Maker refitted with modern (new) dog-eared P-90's

All played thru these amps: '62 Brownface Pro, '65 BF Pro Reverb, '59 Bassman RI, Kendrick 2410 (4x10 tweed bassman clone), Kendrick 2112 (5e3 deluxe clone), Matchless Brave 1x12, Peavey Delta Blues 2x10 (re-tubed and re-speakered), UniValve (with all-Mullard EL34 and ECC83's) thru a Marshall 4x12 cab, Marshall JCM900 2x12 combo

The outcomes:

Harmonic Design Z-90s - Like P-90s on steroids. All the grittiness, detail and focus are there -- stinging highs, punchy mids, including the piano string bottom and growl -- but with incredible harmonic spread, girth and body compared with the vintage P-90's. Clear and articulate when clean, angry and nasty when pushed. More depth, volume and complexity than the real deal with less noise. These have the all important "organic" and dynamic characteristics. Equally great as a rhythm or lead pickup.

Seymour Duncan Phat Cats - Everything said about the Z-90s applies here too. In fact, it's remarkable and a bit disconcerting how similar they sound. A great plus is that these pu's have nickel covers (not an option for the HD's) which preserve somewhat a vintage look. Also very reasonable pricewise.

Kent Armstrong WPU900Cs - More well behaved that the real deal -- with slightly attenuated highs and compression by comparison. Definitely in the neighborhood, but with a bit less dynamics and spread. Looks very much like the Phat Cats -- great price!

Gibson P-94s - Most similar tonally to the vintage P-90s, but with slightly less detailed highs as with the Armstrongs. Again, a bit more civilized. Familiar but unconventional looks -- kind of like a DeArmond or a 60's european make.

Rio Grande Bastard and Fat Bastard - Normed against the real P-90s, these pu's seemed dull, muddy, overly compressed and middy. In fact, they sounded more like average conventional humbuckers than the humbuckers in the shootout. Lots of volume but terribly poor dynamics and no "3-D ness" to the sound. Quite disappointing, which made me suspect that there may be something wrong with this set given how many people seem to like this pu. Ironically, it has the best cosmetics of the single coil bunch -- great looking construction and plating.

Timbuckers - Am convinced that these must be as close as any recently made 'buckers will ever get to the soul of a vintage P-90. Of course there is the expected attenuation in the highs, but in this case it is only ever slightly less so. Warmer than a P-90 and rightly so, they nevertheless have those clear, articulate, organic, complex and dynamic qualities that P-90s share and makes these pickups' reputation on the LPF so well deserved. Plus the less noise. For all you Timbucker and genuine PAF players who have never wandered into P-90 territory, you're 85% there already -- pick up some real P-90's and see if in fact these possess the tone you've been chasing all your lives... and then some.

Dimarzio Bluesbuckers - These claim to simulate P-90s. They are clearer than most 'buckers, but they don't quite get there. Having a more compressed sonic signature than the real deal P-90, they also break up earlier and lose a bit of focus. Nice tone on its own terms, but doesn't have that throaty, vocal quality.

Dimarzio Humbuckers From Hell - Makes no claims to be in P-90 territory, and so they aren't. Having said that, these are very clean, bright, and articulate pickups that have a decidedly modern quality verging on a clinical, studio-like sound. Very un-bucker sounding and much closer to a modern Fender vibe. Can have an "acoustic-like" quality to it. In fact I ended up leaving it in the neck slot of the 335 Pro with the Bluesbucker in the bridge, which makes for a truly versatile guitar -- the blended sound is great.

THE WRAP: If sonic faithfulness to real P-90s is your bag, the Gibson P-94s almost gets you there. You just have to contend with whether you like the look -- in our book, we'd really rather just go with the P-90 guitars because they still do sound and feel better.

Tims are Tims. What can we say? In an earlier HB shootout, these demolished BB's, '57 Classics, T-tops, Holmes', Fralins, Antiquities, Lovers, Voodoos, Dimarzio PAFS, you name it. Tims were really close to real PAFs and we liked them precisely because they both approached those qualities that we loved in vintage P-90s, despite their being 'buckers.

The real revelation in terms of HB-sized single coils were the Duncan Phat Cats and the Harmonic Design Z-90s -- they are P-90s and more -- a class unto themselves. Cut, sting, detail, balls, punch, warmth, roundness. It's like you poured some PAF into a glass of Tele bridge, garnished it with a Gretsch Fillter'tron, and stirred it with a piano string. A tone alchemist's fantasy. If you indulge yourself, you may never touch another 'bucker again ('cept for Tims).

Postscript: The P-90 guitars showed themselves to be truly self referential, all being closer tonally to one another than any of the others ever got. But perhaps because of other factors like instrument construction, age, etc., we had our distinctions nevertheless:

'57 LP Special (single cut) - most "open" and warm sounding
'59 LP Special (double cut) - the "true" reference, lots of "body"
'60 LP Special (double cut) - angry and nasty, most stinging tone
'72 LP Goldtop '58 / '54 - most civilized, in control
Mid '60's Melody Maker w/ modern P-90's - sounding somewhat "new", most one-dimensional and least complex

resurrection bump because this last post is amazing . Thanks!!

[Kelsey]

I second that emotion. I have a set of Duncan Phat Cats in my PRS McCarty Standard with IRW neck, and they sound very cool -- somewhere between an SG w/P90s and a Tele on steroids. I took this guitar back to the shop where I bought it (Martin Music in Memhis) so they could hear how it sounded with Phat Cats in it, and they absolutely loved it's clean chime and ballsy grind.