Im in pentatonic hell [Archive]

-kk-

01-26-2005, 06:21 AM

Ditto on Mark's suggestions.

Im almost in the same boat, cant read music to save my life, but getting the hang of tabs. its really not that difficult, hey if i can understand it, ANYONE can :p

Id say to concentrate on a selected scale (esp if youre learning on your own), eg dorian, and familiarize yourself with it. next step is to listen to artists eg santana and try to dissect their playing. it can be challenging but very rewarding as well.

there's also another thread on practice routine that has some good suggestions.

good luck!

Hipster Dofus

01-26-2005, 06:44 AM

Try going from major pent to minor and back, over 7 chords...

Lots of the masters did this, Like Freddy King.

Try major on the I chord, and minor over the IV, & V.

Add the major notes to the minor Pent and find the ones that fit,

In A minor pent, the B, F#, C#......

RobertMiller

01-26-2005, 09:58 AM

By "stuck in the box" I assume you mean the first position (root on sixth string) which is the "Chuck Berry" position if you will. You can have fun with this position forever if you like. But the real fun begins when you connect the other boxes or positions and then add the accidentals. Google "pentatonic minor boxes" and look for the torvund.net link - gives you a grid of all the positions. Learn those (you will intuitively know how to connect some of them just from your playing experience), and add the accidentals by ear.

For the pentatonic major positions, the most intuitive way to get started is to arpeggiate up and down on the C A G E D triad voicings. Hopefully this helps and isn't redundant for you.

Mr.Hanky

01-29-2005, 09:59 AM

You can arpeggiate each chord for one.
Or switch penta scales with each chord for a little variety.
Start looking at the chord being played, not the key that the entire progression is in.

decay-o-caster

01-29-2005, 11:47 AM

Hi, Richard - good running into you (often!) at NAMM.

One thing that kick-started my playing quite a bit is learning the about the CAGED system. I'm sure there must be a site somewhere that lays it all out, but in the meantime, think in terms of the open-string chord positions, but moved to where they need to be for the chord you need to play. Start on the top three strings, for example. So an A major chord would be:
--0--
--2--
--2--
or
--12--
--14--
--14-- (the "A" shape)

or
--5--
--5--
--6-- (the "E" shape - think of a barred E shape on the 5th fret)

or
--9--
-10--
--9-- (the "D" shape) etc.

Then learn the minors and the sevenths. And when you get around to it, the fourth, fifth and sixth strings. But start on the top three strings because it's more manageable to have a smaller set of things to begin with.

The usefulness of this is that it gives you the arpeggios, for one thing, and for another, it gives you places to go to get out of the box. Learn the major or minor pentatonic shapes around the chord shapes, but emphasize the chord tones and it will help you outline changes much better. For the A to the D in a blues progression, tie the shapes together in easy ways:
--5-- --5--
--5-- --7--
--6-- --7--
The notes of the two chords are near each other, but have interesting differences (the major 3rd in the A moves up a fret to the 1 in the D chord, for instance).

There's lots more to this, and as I said, I'm sure lots of folks have written about it (I learned it from Shades), but doing this has really helped me unlock the neck and get out of the pentatonic boxes I used to be stuck in. I find it much easier to play melodically and to define chords better.

And hey, we all know the open position chords, so you don't even need to learn new fingerings!

Paychek

01-29-2005, 01:34 PM

Richard
Hey bro, welcome back to NM. Hope you had a good time at the NAMM.

EMAIL SENT WITH SOUND BYTES!!
I THINK THIS WILL HELP

Mikey

Glowing Tubes

01-30-2005, 06:15 PM

Thanks for the tips guys.

When it comes to this stuff, Im a total dunce. Cant read tab. For me it has always been by ear which is good in some ways, not good in others. Most of your generous suggestions are way over my head unfortunately.:jo

Richard

telest

02-01-2005, 10:09 AM

Hey Richard, TAB is easy to learn, no problem. You owe it to yourself to learn it and maybe find a good teacher. I was stuck for a long time, then I took a few theory lessons from a good teacher and it opened a lot of doors for me. Of course that was years ago, now I'm stuck again, just on a little higher level. :jo
Good luck.

Steve

kingsxman

02-11-2005, 05:57 AM

David, that was an excellant way to lay out that information. I also struggle with getting out of the minor pentatonic box. I need to spend some time with my Fretboard Logic book I have.

Also, I think someone else mentioned "THink about the chords your playing over...not the key". I think that is a key point also. I tend to just say "oh...we're in A so I can noodle aroudn this Am pentatonic box pattern". Knowing the difference in the pattern over the chord your playing will help. I think however that to tie those together I probably need to learn where all the notes are on the fretboard. Starting with the top 3 strings seems like a good plan. I struggle with "I'm going from an A chord to a D chord...now where is that D note on the 2nd string". I took a few lessons a couple years back and the teacher described wanting to have "landing notes" to hit on the chord changes. That seems like a good idea also.

jroot

02-11-2005, 11:11 PM

Hey bud. I feel your pain. 2 weeks ago I purchased a DVD/Book called FRETBOARD LOGIC SE. It is beginning to open new doors for me and has me thinking in new directions. I have been playing 20 years and am finnaly able to start grasping the concept of how this stuff fits together. He presents it in a logical way yet I don't get that math vibe. Good luck in your journey from the penatonic hell. and take care man.

Garygtr

02-19-2005, 12:12 AM

Check out "Fire and Flow Pt 1 and 2" on truefire.com, originally in GP mag. Jimmy Herring shows some very simple ways to break out of the pentatonic blues in a way that is very easy to apply :cool:

Jon Silberman

02-19-2005, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by shinrock
listen to the beatles:dude

Excellent suggestion and, now that I think about it, a similar suggestion to the one I was going to make: change your focus from scales and arpeggios to chord tones and intervals. A good teacher can help you with that.

grism

03-02-2005, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by decay-o-caster
Hi, Richard - good running into you (often!) at NAMM.

One thing that kick-started my playing quite a bit is learning the about the CAGED system. I'm sure there must be a site somewhere that lays it all out, but in the meantime, think in terms of the open-string chord positions, but moved to where they need to be for the chord you need to play.

The CAGED sequence is thoroughly explained by Bill Edwards in his book "FretboardLogic SE" ($16 at Amazon.com). It really helped me to understand the reasoning behind the layout of the guitar fretboard and how the 5 root chords (C, A, G, E, D) are related. Its certainly not the end-all of guitar instruction but theres lots of good stuff in it, and its written to be understood by experts and beginners alike. I bought it and it remains part of my library.

Its worth at least a flip-through if you can find it at a local music or guitar store.

Dajbro

03-04-2005, 09:35 AM

Richard,

Something that you can do right now, just using your ear, and not having to shed any new theory or reading, is what I call limitation exercises.

Rather than going to your tried and true pentatonic box, limit yourself to playing on 1 string. Pick a string and figure out the notes of the pentatonic scale and force yourself to play using only that string. Because your fingers will not be able to fall back into patterns from the familiar box, you will be forced to find new melodies and also phrase differently and use different techniques.

Once you have done that for a while and are feeling comfortable with it, move on to another string (still limiting yourself to one) until you have done all six. Then you can try using 2 adjacent strings, 2 non-adjacent strings, etc.

I have found that this kind of practice really helped free up my fingerboard knowledge out of boxes and patterns and helped me see the neck as a whole. Plus, it is much harder to let your fingers go on automatic pilot, so you tend to listen to your playing more and (hopefully) try to play what you are hearing.

Hope this helps.

David

chris nix

03-06-2005, 11:39 PM

Hi Richard,

It was really great meeting you at NAMM!
I would recommend listening to other instruments. I like to listen to Mark O'connor and Stephane Grappelli (both violinists, though Mark is a great guitarist, too). I've been on a real Thelonius Monk kick lately....
Just find stuff that you notice the notes tweaking your ears ina cool way, and figure out (on the guitar) what the line of harmony is that interests you about it. I used to do that with all kinds of stuff, then I would build scales out of the intervals that sounded cool to me.
Also, learning by ear seems like the best way, as anyone can always learn to read music, but not everyone has good ears. Reading is NOT hard, at all. Though, I think sometimes music teachers try to make it seem that way!
A great book to try, for learning to read is "Reading and Writing Music for the Musician" by Dave Stewart, who is a keyboardist that has played with Holdsworth, among others.
The book should be called "Music Reading for Neanderthal Guitarists", it's so easy to get through!
Music is not as complicated as a lot of people like to make it out to be. So, don't be discouraged!!

amstaf

03-13-2005, 08:17 PM

I may be a little off here, I'd say get some lessons, possibly in classical. I did that for a year, just did a bunch of reading. I played electric still, I didn't just stop. Taking jazz lessons will get you out of the box too.

bobbymack

03-16-2005, 12:31 PM

Pick up a copy of Matt Smith's Chop Shop book. It comes with a CD, and is by far the best "upper intermediate" level instruction I know of. Covers everything from practice skills, major and minor blues, playing outside, modes, playing thru changes etc...

Matt teaches at NGW, is a Hamer clinician and monster player, but most of all a truly great instructor.

You can order from NGW or from www.mattsmithsworld.com

I am not related, just a happy student. :D

darial

03-18-2005, 04:27 PM

The obvious solution is to learn how to read music, and then tap into the huge amount of transcribed western music out there. You can't help but et a grip on major and minor scale playing by doing that, which will at least give yu options other than pentatonics.

darial

03-18-2005, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by grism
The CAGED sequence is thoroughly explained by Bill Edwards in his book "FretboardLogic SE" ($16 at Amazon.com). It really helped me to understand the reasoning behind the layout of the guitar fretboard and how the 5 root chords (C, A, G, E, D) are related. Its certainly not the end-all of guitar instruction but theres lots of good stuff in it, and its written to be understood by experts and beginners alike. I bought it and it remains part of my library.

Its worth at least a flip-through if you can find it at a local music or guitar store.

This is probably the best piece of beginning guitar-centric theory. Good book if you haven't seen the same material elsewhere. It would benifit from some standard notation though.

kingsxman

03-18-2005, 10:34 PM

Bobbymuck, I went to the Matt Smith site. I'd have to take it as a leap of faith that the book was any good becuase...unless i'm missing something...there was next to NO information on what is in it. SOunds "interesting"...but I'd want more info before buying.

dkap

03-19-2005, 06:34 AM

Originally posted by kingsxman
Bobbymuck, I went to the Matt Smith site. I'd have to take it as a leap of faith that the book was any good becuase...unless i'm missing something...there was next to NO information on what is in it. SOunds "interesting"...but I'd want more info before buying.
Good policy. I've recently bought a couple of ~$25. books based on people's hype that were fairly disappointing. Anyway, if you check Matt's book at this link (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1929395329/qid=1111235367/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-3899155-6456822) on Amazon, there is a blurb about the book and there are a couple of reviews from people who liked the book. Good luck making an informed choice.

harryjmic

03-23-2005, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by Dajbro
Richard,

Something that you can do right now, just using your ear, and not having to shed any new theory or reading, is what I call limitation exercises.

Rather than going to your tried and true pentatonic box, limit yourself to playing on 1 string. Pick a string and figure out the notes of the pentatonic scale and force yourself to play using only that string. Because your fingers will not be able to fall back into patterns from the familiar box, you will be forced to find new melodies and also phrase differently and use different techniques.

Once you have done that for a while and are feeling comfortable with it, move on to another string (still limiting yourself to one) until you have done all six. Then you can try using 2 adjacent strings, 2 non-adjacent strings, etc.

I have found that this kind of practice really helped free up my fingerboard knowledge out of boxes and patterns and helped me see the neck as a whole. Plus, it is much harder to let your fingers go on automatic pilot, so you tend to listen to your playing more and (hopefully) try to play what you are hearing.

Hope this helps.

David

I'd take this one step further ala Mick Goodrick and play on one string as above but play any note and listen for what works and what doesn't. This way you'll get out of scale playing completely. Since each chord progression can be different you will probably end up using different notes based on the song played. If you do this enough you should be able to figure out the major and minor scales and possibly diminished and augmented depending on how far you want to take it.

bobbymack

03-23-2005, 01:31 PM

Well I guess it would be a leap of faith. I'm not promoting Matt's website, I'm recommending a great instructional book written by a very talented teacher that is relevant to the poster's original question.

Chop Shop is a tool which I think has tremendous value for intermediate level guitar players trying to improve their playing, value far in excess of the price of the book...

I believe a player struggling with opening up the fretboard / "getting to the next level" simply has to gain significant insight from applying the material in Matt's book. But that's just my opinion.

FWIW, I've been playing for 20+ years and it helped me...

kingsxman

03-23-2005, 02:07 PM

BobbyMack, I take it with high regard that your recommending it. I actually still may pick it up myself based on your recommendation. I was just saying that he maybe is doing himself a disservice NOT having more specific information of what is actually in the book out there.

Owning the book is one thing...finding the time to actually study them is another. :-)

mjl927

04-04-2005, 09:31 AM

How about just drawing out charts for yourself of major/minor scale patterns? Maybe some harmonic or melodic minor scales will suit you? If you have a program like MS Powerpoint, this is really easy. I've got all sorts of scale shapes that I've plotted using Powerpoint to draw a fretboard, then draw circles which are used to indicate the scale patterns. The charts look professional and are extremely useful.

Next, digest these patterns by practicing them during your regular practice sessions. Actually, I just warm up by running through them and refreshing my memory.

Finally, and here is the key thing, start developing your own book of licks. Using powerpoint again, print off a bunch of pages of blank guitar tab. Then, invent some cool licks for yourself. Tab each of these licks out as you go indicating the key the lick is in. For example: I have a whole section in my own lick book called "D minor licks". Many times, I write out a lick in the book but forget about it. So whenever, I am practicing guitar and feel uninspired, I can pull out my lick book and run through the licks I already wrote. Sometimes, after doing that, I find myself creating a whole new set of licks.

Another great benefit to doing this is, you find your own voice rather than copying other peoples stuff.

Yossi

04-05-2005, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by bobbymack
Pick up a copy of Matt Smith's Chop Shop book. :D

Ok, you sold me. I just ordered the book from Amazon.

I have the Fretboard logic set with dvd as well.

That book plus a book from Jon Finn Advance Lead guitar has really opened up my playing.

Anyway, the reviews on chop shop were 5 stars. For $25 including shipping how can I go wrong?

Yossi

Scribe

04-06-2005, 02:06 AM

Try playing your pentatonic scales over different chords such as--

Amin Pentatonic over Gmaj7 chord = dorian mode
Bmin Pentatonic over Gmaj7 chord = phrygian mode
Emin Pentatonic over Gmaj7 chord = aeolian mode

Amin Pentonic over Gmin7 chord = phrygian mode
etc.

Then you'll be playing modal licks on top of std chords. It's way more interesting than just playing Gmin Pent over Gmin7. Also, you won't end up sounding trite by always landing on the root at the end of phrases.

Pentatonic scales are the easy way into modal playing.

bobbymack

04-06-2005, 08:38 AM

Yossi--

I think you will be well pleased.

I'm excited to be attending one of Matt's NGW seminars this summer...

Let me know what you think after spending some time with the book!

Yossi

04-06-2005, 03:07 PM

Thanks bobbymack.
Please let me know how the semiar goes.
I've often thought about going to a guitar camp or a school. I think it would be great.

Order time on this book is a couple of weeks.

The one book that has been the biggest eye opener to me is the Advanced Modern rock Guitar improvisation by Jon Finn.

Have you ever seen it. It is a very deep book but I get something out of it every time I dive into it.
He gets into the CAGED system, sort of but never mentions it.

I realized that the starting point on CAGED that I'm used to is the "G" because it is the Pentatonic pattern that everyone learns at first.

So by combining the insight from Fretboard logic and the material from Jon Finn this old dog learned a few more tricks!

Take Care,

Yossi

PinkStrat

04-06-2005, 03:41 PM

Jim Blackthorne's "Ancient Secrets of Scales and Modes" will change everything you ever knew about pentatonic boxes (scales) and the like. This book has some MAJOR stuff in it that you will not learn enrolled in ANY "music school". Email Jim at jimblackthorne1@aol.com and/or jimblackthorne@yahoo.com for more details. I've known this guy personally since 1970 and Jim has really found out a lot of information that is THE key to sounding ORIGINAL & like yourself. This is an EAR training book and NOT a technique book. RUN and get this one right away...you will thank me later for it!:dude

bobbymack

04-06-2005, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by PinkStrat
This book has some MAJOR stuff in it that you will not learn enrolled in ANY "music school".
Hmmm, let's see. A week of classes and playing taught by Matt Smith (who has played / recorded with and/or opened for AL DiMeola, Johhny Winter, Sheryl Crow, BB King, Buddy Guy, Gregg Allman, etc etc as well as Hamer / Ovation clinician), 7 hours in the classroom / studio daily with workshops / concerts at night. Class size 10-15 adults. Guest lecturers Shane Theriot and Robben Ford...

I can see how you would think that couldn't stack up to your friend's booklet. ;)

Scribe

04-06-2005, 05:40 PM

PinkStrat

04-06-2005, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by bobbymack
Hmmm, let's see. A week of classes and playing taught by Matt Smith (who has played / recorded with and/or opened for AL DiMeola, Johhny Winter, Sheryl Crow, BB King, Buddy Guy, Gregg Allman, etc etc as well as Hamer / Ovation clinician), 7 hours in the classroom / studio daily with workshops / concerts at night. Class size 10-15 adults. Guest lecturers Shane Theriot and Robben Ford...

I can see how you would think that couldn't stack up to your friend's booklet. ;)

Hi bobbymack,

Let's get something straight okay? I was not criticizing Matt Smith at all. I am sure that he is immensely talented & that I would enjoy his work (and his book too). However, that said, I think you might check out what is in this book BEFORE passing judgement.

Many musicians of top calibre were blown away by Jim's book before he ever published it and immediately embraced it. So there is obviouly something going on with it or I would'nt have recommended it so heartily. I know that several members of this forum have gotten Jim's book and perhaps they can attest to it's unique approach.

Wherever you learn good stuff about music is okay by me.:) Jim & I both saw Robben Ford a zillion times live & long before he was known past the SF Bay area.

04-06-2005, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by Scribe
Yeah, it's like the self help books you buy. They really don't work that good because you need feedback. People just tend to read their own limited solutions into books.

I was thinking the same thing, get a really gifted instructor.

I don't know anything about self-help books, but if you want feedback on what you sound like, why not just record yourself and listen back to it? Your ears are good enough when you determine whether you like what anyone else is playing. Why not put them to work on your own playing?

I've got nothing against good instruction, mind you.

bobbymack

04-06-2005, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by PinkStrat
However, that said, I think you might check out what is in this book BEFORE passing judgement.

Hey PinkStrat...

As a matter of fact I'd already emailed Jim at his aol address asking for the scoop on getting the book, I'm definitely going to check it out. I'm all for anything that will help me become a better player...

I don't get into flame wars etc, but with all due respect I think you might have been the one passing judgment here (on music schools en masse). All I was pointing out is the fact that there are lots of excellent instructional vehicles out there for people who want to learn.

I believe one should be open-minded, listen to recommendations from guys they respect, and take with a grain of salt anyone saying that any one book, video, class etc is the be-all and end-all.

Peace.

:)

Yossi

04-06-2005, 11:07 PM

Originally posted by PinkStrat
Jim Blackthorne's "Ancient Secrets of Scales and Modes" ...........RUN and get this one right away...you will thank me later for it!:dude

Hey Dean, if it will make me sound as good as your strings do then I'll have to get this book too!

:)

Yossi

PinkStrat

04-06-2005, 11:38 PM

Yossi,

This is all mapped out all over a two-octave fingerboard and really sets your ears on fire. It's all the sounds you've heard the greats play but could never unlock the KEY to it. Composite scales are part of the secrets given here (meaning more than 8 notes in many cases) & this book also borrows theorles from Nicholas Slonimsky's "Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Pattens." Basically, this is a guy's 30 year journey to find all the things he was hearing in his head but didn't find at Berklee School of Music and other college musical programs.

By random I went straight to page 30 and found a really wild way of playing over #7#9 chords. This stuff is really addictive and most of all FUN...because you begin to play what you HEAR in a very different way than ever before. This is what makes this book so unique. It's all laid out for you in black and white (and tablature too). Approach with an open mind and pretty soon you'll be blowing other guitarist's minds with what is contained in this book!:dude

04-07-2005, 12:32 AM

I've contacted Jim about his book and am very interested in getting a look at it.

Thanks for the head's up.

PinkStrat

04-07-2005, 12:40 AM

My pleasure Richard. You know by now that I will recommend something that has a different twist to it & something that goes a little (maybe a LOT) deeper than the normal stuff that is out there. :)

PinkStrat

04-07-2005, 12:57 AM

Originally posted by bobbymack
Hey PinkStrat...

I don't get into flame wars etc, but with all due respect I think you might have been the one passing judgment here (on music schools en masse). All I was pointing out is the fact that there are lots of excellent instructional vehicles out there for people who want to learn.

I believe one should be open-minded, listen to recommendations from guys they respect, and take with a grain of salt anyone saying that any one book, video, class etc is the be-all and end-all.

Peace.

:)

In my own experience music schools taught me a little. I learned even more from the list of many great teachers I've been blessed to have taken personal instruction from. I have also learned a lot from selected musical instruction videos (such as Jerry Donohue's and/or Jim Hall's for example). At the end of the day, I am now literally finding "myself" while going through this book I bought from Jim Blackthorne. I think that it is clutch to keep your ears stimulated to stay out of ruts & this book can help you do just that. I transcribed a lot from the Slonimsky Thesaurus work (written in 1947 if I recall correctly) too. Now, THAT was very difficult (not to even mention very time consuming) to do because it's written for pianists and you have to map out all these melodic patterns/scales all over the fingerboard FIRST before you can really apply it to the guitar from that point in the process!

Now I am getting better at being ME (as this indeed was the whole point of doing music from day one, right)? However you find it, USE everything to further your ear skills and the rest will follow.

fr8_trane

04-07-2005, 08:39 AM

Learn tab. It will take about an hour. Really. It's stupid easy so there's no excuse. Some theory is a must. Harmonizing the major scale is probably the best place to start. That way you will understand what "I IV V" or "ii V I" means. By FAR the best way to improve your soloing is to copy the solos of more accomplished players. Get the Amazing slow downer or something similar for this purpose. When you learn these solos note for note it is ABSOLUTELY critical to understand what the underlying chords are and how they relate to the notes in the solo (thats where the theory comes in). Thats why learning blues solos is so important because you already know the progression. Don't focus on one style. You can find I IV V progressions in traditional blues, Jazz Blues, rock, country, funk, and R&B. Explore them all. Don't focus only on guitar players. Some of the greatest soloists of all time were sax players and even the lowliest of them seem to have a much better grasp of melody than your average guitar player.

Scribe

04-07-2005, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by rh
I don't know anything about self-help books, but if you want feedback on what you sound like, why not just record yourself and listen back to it? Your ears are good enough when you determine whether you like what anyone else is playing. Why not put them to work on your own playing?

I've got nothing against good instruction, mind you.

Because he said he's stuck. If your approach to soloing is to play an E minor pentatonic scale over Emin, it's going to sound really weird to start trying to play F# pentatonic (phrygian) or A lydian over it at first. That's where a teacher can guide by both demonstrating how it can sound right and encouraging him to play it.

Besides, people need human contact. Isolation is a type of punishment after a while. A relationship with a great teacher can expand your horizons, provide social stimulation, and give you something to look forward to each week. It's much more pleasant than the "go to your room" advice of getting a book or sitting alone in front of a recorder trying to reinvent the wheel.

Yossi

04-07-2005, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by PinkStrat
Jim Blackthorne's "Ancient Secrets of Scales and Modes......

RUN and get this one right away...you will thank me later for it!:dude

I sent him an email. If I don't hear from him soon, I'll have to borrow your copy Dean:D

What style of music does he play?

Yossi

PinkStrat

04-07-2005, 03:09 PM

Jim is now one of the more wilder type of players who take a lot of interestingchances with what he plays. I think he is a fusion of rock, jazz, blues and Indian influences all rolled into one, He won second place in GP's "Best unknown guitarist" contest in 1988.

It has long been speculated that the real reason Jim Blackthorne was chosen as the second place runner up was (at the time of this contest) because he just so happened to live in the same town where Guitar Player's headquarters was based at the time.

Jim is really good and very ORIGINAL.

Yossi

04-07-2005, 03:53 PM

I was trying to find a clip of him playing and didn't have any luck. There are some players that are so "out there" that I have a hard time listening to their music. I don't always like what is creative to the exclusion of tasteful. For example some Jazz is that way. It is an expression for sure. But I have a harder time listening to it than Larry Carlton or Lee Ritenour.
My tastes are very wide range it's just that some music I don't have the taste for.

Do you know of where he has a clip.

There is a thread that has a lot of different suggestions of who to listen to and I've done a lot of exploring.

Clearly listening to someone new is a mind opener.

Yossi

04-07-2005, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by Scribe
Because he said he's stuck. If your approach to soloing is to play an E minor pentatonic scale over Emin, it's going to sound really weird to start trying to play F# pentatonic (phrygian) or A lydian over it at first. That's where a teacher can guide by both demonstrating how it can sound right and encouraging him to play it.

Besides, people need human contact. Isolation is a type of punishment after a while. A relationship with a great teacher can expand your horizons, provide social stimulation, and give you something to look forward to each week. It's much more pleasant than the "go to your room" advice of getting a book or sitting alone in front of a recorder trying to reinvent the wheel.

I've had teachers. Good ones. The last one told me to record myself and listen back to it as the most important tool to improvement.

He didn't mention anything about isolation or avoiding human contact -- and neither did I. So stick to things that are actually said, eh?

04-07-2005, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by PinkStrat
My pleasure Richard. You know by now that I will recommend something that has a different twist to it & something that goes a little (maybe a LOT) deeper than the normal stuff that is out there. :)

Haven't heard back from him yet, but that's probably because he's got a lot of email about his book now.

I crave the stuff with the twists. Can't wait to take a look at it.

Scribe

04-08-2005, 04:21 AM

Originally posted by rh
I've had teachers. Good ones. The last one told me to record myself and listen back to it as the most important tool to improvement.

He didn't mention anything about isolation or avoiding human contact -- and neither did I. So stick to things that are actually said, eh?

I did stick to what he said. I used my brain to infer and expand on it to it's natural consequences. Learn to read between the lines.

Go back to the original post... he's stuck in pentatonic hell and you think he should try to work out his problems on his own with a tape recorder. Not very compassionate really.

04-08-2005, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by Scribe
I did stick to what he said. I used my brain to infer and expand on it to it's natural consequences. Learn to read between the lines.

Oh, I'm reading between the lines all right. Forum rules prevent me from describing what I find there.

Go back to the original post... he's stuck in pentatonic hell and you think he should try to work out his problems on his own with a tape recorder. Not very compassionate really.

What's compassion got to do with this? And for cryin' out loud, quit already with your unfounded conclusions that I'm suggesting that he go off into solitary confinement or not use any other approach but a tape recorder. I've never said anything like that. What I have said is this:

We use our ears all the time to determine what's good or not good about other people's playing. We can do the same thing to our own playing.

You got a problem with that suggestion? Fine. But if the only thing bad you can say about the idea is a bunch of baloney about how it's compassionless and isolationist, save your breath. That's got nothing to do with anything I've said.

flatfinger

04-09-2005, 02:10 PM

I'm kind of suprized at the vehement defense of the "established" music teaching methods. They are not that good for guitar!!!! Earlier post mention fretboard logic. After I read it I was mad at some of my previous teachers!!! They where using methods better suited to piano or violin!!!
Theres music and then "guitaristic" considerations.

There's allso a big difference between of the cuff improvazation and being dependant on a sheet of six line staff in front of you!

I could be boring and give you a laundry list of great players who had no theory whatsoever but the point is one of the great things about music that we all love is that its not really so easy to pin down with simple or even a complicated set of rules!

I'll leave you with a quote "the delta fathers
DID NOT have a guitar in one hand and a Music textbook in the other!"

PinkStrat

04-09-2005, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by flatfinger
I'm kind of suprized at the vehement defense of the "established" music teaching methods. They are not that good for guitar!!!! Earlier post mention fretboard logic. After I read it I was mad at some of my previous teachers!!! They where using methods better suited to piano or violin!!!
Theres music and then "guitaristic" considerations.

There's allso a big difference between of the cuff improvazation and being dependant on a sheet of six line staff in front of you!

I could be boring and give you a laundry list of great players who had no theory whatsoever but the point is one of the great things about music that we all love is that its not really so easy to pin down with simple or even a complicated set of rules!

I'll leave you with a quote "the delta fathers
DID NOT have a guitar in one hand and a Music textbook in the other!"

Amen to that!:dude

lhallam

04-09-2005, 05:34 PM

Demonstrated in this thread are many well meaning personalities who each have methods that worked for them.

What you should take from this is that you may have to try some different avenues and/or a combination thereof to achieve your goals.

Often times what works in one stage of your development doesn't apply later.

There is no one "right" answer for all of us all the time.

Scribe

04-09-2005, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by lhallam
Demonstrated in this thread are many well meaning personalities who each have methods that worked for them.

What you should take from this is that you may have to try some different avenues and/or a combination thereof to achieve your goals.

Often times what works in one stage of your development doesn't apply later.

There is no one "right" answer for all of us all the time.

There is definitely some strong yin/yang currents in this thread also, huh?

Let's see there's--
Buck up and be a man and figure it out on your own.
Get a formal education.
Get a teacher.
Find a mentor.
Get therapy.

I know which is best for this situation without projecting my own issues into it not only because I have continually focused on the original comment, "I'm stuck in [...] hell" but also because I've done every one of the suggested modalities at one time or another and know when each is appropriate.

flatfinger

04-09-2005, 07:23 PM

:D I've done every one of the suggested modalities at one time or another and know when each is appropriate.

EXACTLY.......It's all good,!!!!!!!!

everybody has been trying to help , in a sincere way! there are great suggestions!

Try 'um all!!!

No worries
:p

O.K. GROUP HUG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

lhallam

04-10-2005, 10:13 AM

My point is that a person innocently asks a question and gets many answers and then the people start "arguing" amongst themselves as to who gave the correct answer.

I can see where he would become bewildered as to what to do. The LAST thing a teacher wants to do is to frustrate a student, the goal is just the opposite.

I am simply telling Andersonguy that if he tries a method suggested and it doesn't work for him or partly works for him, not to give up and not to consider it a waste of time and/or money. When something doesn't work, it is still a learning experience if you study as to why it didn't work. Also, a suggested method may work for him in the future.

Although I don't teach any longer, I did for many years and I also hold a teaching degree and certificate. What I've found is that every student is unique and one must tailor lessons to meet particular needs.

I certainly can't figure this out by one or two posts. Even when I tried working with Tedm through many public and private e-mails and posts, I still failed to help him.

But don't just take my word for it, observe Tomo.

Tomo

04-10-2005, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by lhallam
My point is that a person innocently asks a question and gets many answers and then the people start "arguing" amongst themselves as to who gave the correct answer.

I can see where he would become bewildered as to what to do. The LAST thing a teacher wants to do is to frustrate a student, the goal is just the opposite.

I am simply telling Andersonguy that if he tries a method suggested and it doesn't work for him or partly works for him, not to give up and not to consider it a waste of time and/or money. When something doesn't work, it is still a learning experience if you study as to why it didn't work. Also, a suggested method may work for him in the future.

Although I don't teach any longer, I did for many years and I also hold a teaching degree and certificate. What I've found is that every student is unique and one must tailor lessons to meet particular needs.

I certainly can't figure this out by one or two posts. Even when I tried working with Tedm through many public and private e-mails and posts, I still failed to help him.

But don't just take my word for it, observe Tomo.

You are kindest person on the earth! Thank you for being
YOU. care person.

I think both teacher and student need to make positive efforts.
Dedication and a lot of care towards guitar playing and feeling.

If I want to teach Anfersonguy, I need to ask him some
questions and I really need to understand his playing history
and weakness , very specific not general way...

I am sure this person need to have very individual guide..
That's why we called "Private lesson" books , videos , dvds
are general lesson.

Many choices and I hope Andersonguy will find his own path.
Then everything (anything he wishes to do) will become possible.
I believe in many possibilities.

PS, I don't have so much licks, I don't have any fast
technique. All I have ... good FUNdamental & blues feeling.
My playing is very simple. no need theory, no reading.

I got to back work!

Tomo

lhallam

04-10-2005, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by Tomo
You are kindest person on the earth! Thank you for being
YOU. care person.

Thank you very much sir I appreciate the sentiment. Believe me, I can be a real prick at times. :)

Yossi

04-11-2005, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by PinkStrat
Jim Blackthorne is really good and very ORIGINAL.

He's a great guy too. I called him about getting his book and he was very generous with his time. We spent close to an hour on the phone and I learned a lot. I orderd his CD too.

Thanks Dean for the refreral!

Yossi

Yossi

04-21-2005, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by Yossi
I orderd his CD too.

Yossi

Sorry to quote myself:)

I just want to rave about the CD Illusions by Jimi Blackthorn. It is great playing. He is an amazing guitarist. Thought that I would share that with you.

Yossi

PinkStrat

04-21-2005, 12:49 PM

EricT

04-21-2005, 01:20 PM

wooldl

04-21-2005, 03:36 PM

You might try downloading Powertabs. This is a free program that can open powertab files and play the music.
It allows you to see everyguitar part and bass and key part as it is being played. Very cool and free.

04-21-2005, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by Yossi
Sorry to quote myself:)

I just want to rave about the CD Illusions by Jimi Blackthorn. It is great playing. He is an amazing guitarist. Thought that I would share that with you.

Yossi

My CD copy came in today, along with the book. Jim's an outstanding player, somewhat reminding me at times of Wayne Eagles, Ed Degenero, Allan Holdworth, Steve Howe, etc. but very original. Great tone and execution, too.

Regarding the book, I'm going to spend about a month on the major 'master' scale and see how his approach augments something I already think I've mined pretty well. I think that'll be a good test for what he's teaching.

PinkStrat

04-21-2005, 08:44 PM

The first thing I started on was page 30....totally by random:)

04-21-2005, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by PinkStrat
The first thing I started on was page 30....totally by random:)

I guess it's the engineer in me that wants to start on the major scale. Gotta make a baseline. :)

PinkStrat

04-21-2005, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by rh
I guess it's the engineer in me that wants to start on the major scale. Gotta make a baseline. :)

Hi Richard,

The weirdest thing was that I was already kind of in this #7#9 chordal tone neighborhood right before I got Jim's book and when I hit page 30 by random....it was like "Wow, this is EXACTLY where I need to start!" Because it took that #7#9 chord past Jupiter....:)

Yossi

04-22-2005, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by EricT
Cool.
How was the book?

The book is a wealth of knowlege that Jim put his essence into.
It is a journey that I have yet to embark upon.
My knowlege of theory and music is my weakest link in my playing.
That's where I am going to put my focus.
His book will help me get there.
I also just got "Chop Shop" that was recomended. That is a much clearer place for me to start. Without that I think I would be lost in Jimi's book. That's bound to happen anyway.
I'll just have a good time exploring along the way.

Yossi

EricT

04-22-2005, 09:05 AM

I've got a pretty good understanding of basic jazz theory, but I find it a bit limited in several situations(or at least I struggle to apply it in a good way...), so I'm always looking for different ways to look at this.
In other words, book and CD ordered:dude

The last few years I've had a habit of ordering books just to skim through them and put them in the shelf without really working at the contents, though...:(

Tomo

04-22-2005, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by Andersonguy
Hi guys,
Im not a bad player but I find myself unable to get out of my little pentatonic box. After seeing so many great players at NAMM, Im dying to change my playing. I can not read music or tab.:jo
Any suggestions?

Thanks

AG

I will do my clinic & performance at
Tone Merchant.

Sat 8pm June 4th. Hope you can come,
I will show you specific concept.

Tomo

wooldl

04-22-2005, 09:15 AM

EricT,

I have had the same bad habit. But I just ordered the book and cd from Jim too. :rolleyes:

I always seem to have the best of intentions to go thru cover to cover, but I never seem to make the time.

EricT

04-22-2005, 11:54 AM

stan p

04-22-2005, 04:53 PM

OK... my 5 cents ...
What's your goal in music? Trying different things?

Being a great player does not necesary mean be knowing much theory. In fact a player with a great sence of rythm and phrasing is more valuable than someone who can solo for hours over sophisticated scales.

So maybe you can just stick with what you have if you are really good at it:)

If you whant to escape pentatonics, try to stop improvising over chords and start composing phrases and mellodies. You will discover alotsa new things this way and you will discover the theory before you notice it.

Just try something different yourself before looking for a guideline from somewhere else:) Belive me it works better than anything:)

If you want to do it - do it:)

04-24-2005, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by wooldl
EricT,

I have had the same bad habit. But I just ordered the book and cd from Jim too. :rolleyes:

I always seem to have the best of intentions to go thru cover to cover, but I never seem to make the time.

I've had it for a few days, and decided to start with the "major master" scale because major-scale based harmony is something I know pretty well. (By that, I mean that while I haven't done the kind of exhaustive exploration of harmony that someone like JAZ has done, it's a rare chord progression that baffles me completely. At least in theory.)

Well, the way JB has presented his material contains a few little nuggets I'd never considered before. And playing around with it last night, I did a bunch of stuff directly derived from those nuggets that I'd never done before.

Given that I've just scratched the surface of his book, it looks like it's going to be extremely valuable.

Thanks Dean! :AOK

PinkStrat

04-24-2005, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by rh
I've had it for a few days, and decided to start with the "major master" scale because major-scale based harmony is something I know pretty well. (By that, I mean that while I haven't done the kind of exhaustive exploration of harmony that someone like JAZ has done, it's a rare chord progression that baffles me completely. At least in theory.)

Well, the way JB has presented his material contains a few little nuggets I'd never considered before. And playing around with it last night, I did a bunch of stuff directly derived from those nuggets that I'd never done before.

Given that I've just scratched the surface of his book, it looks like it's going to be extremely valuable.

Thanks Dean! :AOK

Hi Richard,

If this could be compared to California's "Great Gold Rush of '49" ( in the mid-1800s) there would a whole lotta gold chunks in this book! There is absolutely no doubt that Jim Blackthorne's book is coming from a completely different vantage point and this is exactly WHY it is so brilliantly effective in changing the way you HEAR music. Great news and enjoy this book...No problem-- actually the pleasure was all mine! This book beats that tar out of transcribing the Slonimsky book by hand. In effect, Jim's done all the work for you there. Now all you have to do is open your ears and do the rest.:dude Oh, BTW there is suposed to be 2 more volumes of this book in he future covering even more stuff too! Go figure?

EricT

04-24-2005, 11:47 AM

dkap

04-28-2005, 07:59 AM

I just wanted to chime in about the Blackthorne book. I bought it based on the recommendations here in this thread and though I admire James, love his playing, and also find him to be a really nice guy, the book is only so-so.

Unless I'm missing something obvious, this $20. book, written on newspaper, gives the reader 8 scales, fingerings for each, along with fingerings for each of the 8 scales' modes, a chart of their whole-step/half-step relationship and maybe the names of the notes in all 12 keys. (There are some other charts in the appendices too). There's no real guidance about how to approach playing these 8 scales in any meaningful way....unlike Slonimsky's thesaurus which gives you dozens of scales from 4-notes to 11-notes and shows you tons and tons of harmonized extrapolations/interpolations, so you really get a workout with the scale and how it sounds.

Maybe it's apples and oranges, but give me the recipe for 8 scales and let me figure out the fingerings and their note names and their whole-step/half-step relationship on my own --- or better yet, use the scalculator (free online) or the tools on fretboardknowledge.com (also free) to generate way more scales and patterns than either book provides. Hell scripting languages will invert and pervert this stuff in fractions of milliseconds.

One good thing however was James was nice enough to address some of my questions about this book in a lengthy email, so he was cool enough to give some personalized time. And I think he signed the book too. That's pretty cool. I'm just a little edgy about spending $20. for it.

Perhaps some of you who hyped this book can give some examples of how you used it to open your ears so broadly. I'd certainly be willing to be wrong about my opinions above if I heard real life examples of how people used this material to improve as a player.

Regards,

Dave

P.S. Blackthorne's CD was worth more than the book, IMO. I like that a lot.

EricT

04-28-2005, 08:59 AM

Maybe you can post Jim's answers? I haven't gotten the book yet myself, but some input from the author is always great.

dkap

04-28-2005, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by EricT
Maybe you can post Jim's answers? I haven't gotten the book yet myself, but some input from the author is always great.

Eric,

Since this stuff's not personal, I don't think James would mind me posting it here:

In an email to dkaplowitz, James Blackthorne said:
Dave, thanks for all the nice things you said, just play around and jump around to different areas of interest. Since you seem to have a lot of these sounds under your fingers already, I would attempt ways to develop your lines using a multi modal approach, you will begin to see and hear patterns still even within heavy dissonance or chromatic lines to weave a tapestry of ideas together with.

Use the book as a visual aid to see important tonal structures all over the neck as one. There are many paths within that book, just begin to explore them, it will come to you as you use it, more and more. If you need any jump start after trying to get going, let me know, but I don't think it will take long as you also go through the modes of the more symmetrical and diminished sounds that are on top of altered V7 chords also. Once you begin seeing and hearing the similarities and differences of these other modes and you begin to incorporate pieces of let's say three or four different modes that are altered in different ways, sounds begin to emerge naturally. Creating more composite type sounds and tonal structures, that fit within the normal confines of a ii V I structure.

Use the 4 modes of Melodic, Harmonic, Melodic Lydian, then diminished, symmetrical and some bop and blue note modes against an altered dominant chord structure (this is key) and you should have a basis for communication in most circumstances...

As you can see James is very cool. I've not had a reason to contact him about the book since that last email. His suggestions are good. I don't mean to knock his book much, but I think it could have included a bit more --esp. for the $25. + $4. price. Maybe I'm a jerk for griping about it, but when I spend that much for a book I expect to get a lot out of it.

BTW, I think this stuff's public domain now, (if it's not, someone let me know and I'll remove the link), but here's an article Jim wrote for GP mag way back in 1989. I mentioned to him that I might still have it and he asked me to get him a copy so I posted them up for him to grab. It's a pretty good one:

http://www.gnat-notes.com/images/articles/gp/jblackthorne/ioi01.jpg
http://www.gnat-notes.com/images/articles/gp/jblackthorne/ioi02.jpg
http://www.gnat-notes.com/images/articles/gp/jblackthorne/ioi03.jpg

Cheers,

Dave

04-28-2005, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by dkaplowitz
Perhaps some of you who hyped this book can give some examples of how you used it to open your ears so broadly. I'd certainly be willing to be wrong about my opinions above if I heard real life examples of how people used this material to improve as a player.

I've spoken favorably about my experience with it. (Is that 'hyped'?)

With about two hours into it already, here's what I've done that I thought was interesting.

Sitting down with the major 'master' scale, I reminded myself of the Zen koan about first emptying my cup of tea*. I worked through the fingerings. Nothing new there, except that the fingering for the Dorian was one I'd never used before.

Then I looked over his applications for the modes. Hmmm. He talked about adding notes and then using them over altered chords. Usually I look at altered chords as being derived from different parent scales all together, rather than as an aeolian with an added major third (for example). I started playing around with some of his suggestions, and came up with several new ways of dealing with a few chords that produce sounds I would not have hit upon using different parent scales.

Now, I might have hit those added notes as passing tones in dealing with an altered chord, but using JB's viewing of it as an altered sound added to the major scale modes creates a deliberate interplay between the mode and the added function that would not have occurred to me.

Take the 'would not have occurred to me' with a grain of salt. I'm a sausage-fingered hack with chimp-like vibrato, so maybe this is dispensed with in the first week of one's second year of harmony (I only took one year of it, and have studied selectively on my own beyond that).

Specifically, I like what adding a 3 to the aeolian does over dom 7 chords with the same root. I've played around with emphasizing the 3 in the lower parts of the scale (to establish the 3 in the 7th chord), and emphasizing the b3 in the upper parts of the scale (to alter the 9).

* http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/1acupoftea.html

MusicGearGuys

06-26-2005, 06:55 PM

This might help.

Most folks use the Petatonic form that is:

(1)-4 +low E
1-3=A
1-3=D
1-3=G
1-4=B
1-4 = high E

To play a major scale in the same position try this:

1-3-(4) =Low E
1-3-4=A
1-3=D
slide first finger down 1 fret and go 1-2-4=G
slide first finger back up and go 1-2-4=B
1-3-4 High E

() = the root

So if you are playing in the key of A(m) start the Pentatonic on the Low E string in the 5th fret. Same thing for the G Form scale.

If you want to play in A maj instead of min, then just slide the whole thing down 3 frets.

Try this in a minor progression Amin-Dmin-Emin

Play it on the 5th fret and then the 17th at an octave up.

Boom, instant solo.

Good luck,
Gregory
:dude